Building a Hybrid Muzzleloader

[LAGS]

A Hybrid Muzzleloader is what I am going to call this new rifle.
I am building this rifle to use both Percussion as well as Flintlock.
I am building the rifle so all I have to do is switch out the lock and nipple drum.
I think this is going to be a fun rifle to shoot.
It will allow you to say , shoot in percussion competition.
Then switch out the lock and then shoot the same rifle in a flintlock competition.
That might be a good option for hunting also.
I hear many hunters that either prefer one or the other ignition systems depending on the game or weather conditions.
I am going to start this post and have a good friend post pictures of my work.
I want to show you guys how I do it more than just show you the finished rifle.
This rifle is being built out of mostly extra Used Parts.
Some of these parts might have been considered trash.
So building this custom rifle will save lots of parts from the scrap pile and make a very nice and Unique rifle.
This post may take some time.
And I would love to hear your opinions or Suggestions on what and how I am building it.
I too hope it inspires some of you to build something that you can use , especially if you too have some guns you don't use.

[Sasquatch-1]

Sounds like a fun project. Wish I had the patience for something like that.

[LAGS]

It may be a few days before I can get some pictures posted.
But let me start off by telling you how this project started.
I bought a .50 cal Thompson Center " Renegade " barrel on line for a reasonable price.
The seller explained that the bore was rusted and he had bought himself a Green Mountain barrel already.
I had a used spare Renegade stock.
So I figured that I would just send the barrel to Bobby Hoyt and have it Re Bored to a larger caliber.
When I got the barrel.
I found out why it was Rusted.
It was loaded with a load of Pyrodex and a patched ball that was stuck down the bore for several years.
So I tried to pull the breech plug.
It was so rusted in place from that Pyrodex that it stripped the thread out on both the barrel , and the breech plug.
I could not find another TC breech plug to cut the barrel down and re-tap it to fit a new breech plug.
So , I cut off about an inch of the rear of the barrel and tapped it for 3/4-16 to fit a solid tang flintlock style breech plug that I had.
Then I sent it to Hoyt and had it bored to .54 cal with the standard 1:48 twist.
But with Deep round bottom rifling.
Now,
This barrel and tang would not fit the Renegade stock that I had.
So I ordered a Hawken Maple Half Stock that was only inletted for the 1" barrel and a 3/8" ramrod .hole.
When I got the stock,
I inletted the stock to fit that non hook tang breech plug.
Then I decided to install a nipple drum on the barrel and modify a TC percussion lock to work with a nipple drum rather than a pattent style breech plug that comes on TC's.
That is when I thought.
I can set this up for a TC flintlock and replace the nipple drum with a vent hole liner that was the same thread.
So I finally found a TC flintlock that was in good shape.
The TC Percussion lock that I had modified was a lock that I bought on a used Renegade that the lock was rusted.
So modifying it and being able to reuse it was a good move.
The TC flintlock lock and that TC percussion lock were almost the same size and shape.
So now I am reshaping then that minor amount.so they both fit into the same inletting and line up with the hole in the barrel for that drum or flash hole liner.

[LAGS]

There is one thing that may be a lot simpler and cheaper if you want to build a similar "Hybrid".
If you have a Thompson Center Flintlock Renegade or Hawken rifle.
That would be easier to prep for a nipple drum and modify a percussion lock to work.
When I was looking for the new TC percussion breech plug I could have ordered a TC flintlock breech plug as an option to use with a nipple drum installed with a percussion lock.
That would make that barrel and breech plug fit the factory hooked breech plug tang, and fit the factory stock.
But.
Those were out of stock and couldn't be found at the time either.
But rebuilding this style " Hybrid" is not confined to the project methods that I am doing.
Other models of BP rifles might be able to modify like CVA flintlock rifles.
Or even other rifles that you can buy a LR replacement lock that the flintlock and percussion locks match up .

[longbow]

I will be following this one!

I had a similar thought but have not acted... at least yet. I have wanted a Northwest Trade Musket for some time now but not scratched the itch. One reason is that real BP is hard to get locally and a flintlock needs real BP at least in the pan. So, I thought that maybe I could convert the gun to percussion which must have been done to some trade muskets anyway. Then I could use real BP or subs depending on what is available.

Then I start thinking "Why not have both?" and why not, just as you are doing? Along with that is the desire for a rifled barrel which TOTW used to offer for their NWT musket kit... which they no longer seem to assemble but do seem to have all the parts.

So, My wish would be to buy one gun and two barrels, one rifled and one smooth plus both flintlock original and percussion conversion.

Having said that I have read (on TOTW IIRC) that they cannot be converted to percussion. I have to think they can but I guess depending on lock geometry possibly the flintlock lock plate and percussion lock plate might not sit in the same location? That assumes there is a percussion lock plate that will fit which may be incorrect. If that is the case then I'd have to make a lock plate and reassemble the bits on it which may be a bit much.

In your case I suspect that TC flint and percussion lock plates are the same set up and internals with just the pan and hammer different so that may be easy to have both locks fit if that is the case.

Regardless, I will be watching for pics and developments! Sounds like a fun project.

Longbow

[LAGS]

This project is actually a lot of fun so far.
And it seems like something I can play with again like I said with TC flintlocks since I have plenty of extra TC percussion locks just laying around and I find lots of TC stocks very often.
So they would be easy to build with a TC flintlock set up barrel , or like I said , swap out a percussion breech plug for TC's version of a flintlock breech plug.

[LAGS]

One option that I have that I may look into is,
I have a Pedersolli " Cub " .32 Flintlock Rifle "Kit " that I haven't built yet.
I think I may look into ordering a Percussion lock for that model rifle , and see if it too can replace the Flintlock lock like I am doing with this TC.
I also have a Flintlock Blunderbuss that has a L&R Queen Anne lock.
I need to see if the Percussion Queen Anne lock will fit that rifle and turn it into a Hybrid also.
Turning a flint lock gun into a percussion gun seems easier than trying to turn a percussion into a flintlock gun.
But possibly the rifles that come out of the factory with a nipple drum instead of a pattent style breech plug may also be a better option for turning a percussion into a flintlock or making a Hybrid.
I see lots of CVS's and Traditions that have nipple drums.
Something to look into.
Now I just looked into my shop.
I also have a Traditions Percussion Kentucky Rifle Kit that I haven't built yet.
It has a nipple drum on the barrel.
That may be the first one for me to look for a flintlock lock to fit that model.
They are still made and probably very available.

[armoredman]

This has potential to be VERY interesting!

Remember, this is the guy that built the Muzzle Loading Hip Howitzer from junk into a fine and fun pistol.

[armoredman]

And here we go...

1.
https://i.imgur.com/Xn0YZgu.jpg

2.
https://i.imgur.com/U9hGcy5.jpg

3.
https://i.imgur.com/XdvdCXC.jpg

4.
https://i.imgur.com/OsJS5id.jpg

5.
https://i.imgur.com/FImDn5E.jpg

6.
https://i.imgur.com/IW6Hyty.jpg

[LAGS]

Thank you Armoredman.
I like you posting the pictures for me.


Well Guys , here you go.
Pictures 1 & 2 show the barrel that I am using and the old TC breech plug that the threads are stripped.
The pictures show the style Flintlock breechplug that I fitted to that barrel after I cut off the damaged thread and re tapped it for that breech plug.
Picture 3 showed the two locks that I am using.
Both are made by TC.
But the percussion lock , you can see where I ground in a recess to be able to get that lock to fit a barrel with a nipple drum.
Picture 4 showed the TC barrel in the stock after I fit the barrel for a nipple drum.
The rifle behind it in that picture is a custom TC that I am building also that has the TC pattent style breech plug so you can compare the different looks of the two.
Pictures 5 & 6 show the Hybrid rifle with the nipple drum removed and a flash hole liner installed to work with that flintlock lock.
It is very easy to switch the locks from one to the other.
It can be done in the field or at the range with just a small wrench and a screwdriver in just a couple minutes.

[longbow]

That's pretty slick! I like it!

Longbow

[LAGS]

I think things like this style rifle can be an advantage to ML shooters that only can afford one rifle at a time.
Say , you have say Traditions Hawken rifle that is a percussion lock.
But you want to have a Flintlock rifle too.
But you can't afford it or don't have a place to store a second rifle.
If you buy another lock and the misc parts to do the conversion you might be able to afford to have a Hybrid.
The replacement Lock ( especially a used one that fits ) will be so much cheaper than the cost of a new or maybe even used rifle.

[Baltimoreed]

Nice build, very clever idea. My last builds eons ago were underhammers.

[725]

Lookin' good, LAGS. Fun project, for sure. Keep those pics coming. Very enjoyable to see you at work.

[LAGS]

Thank you 725.
That is a nice comment from one of the few people out there that have actually seen the work that I do.
Hay.
I just remembered that pistol I built for you , had a barrel with a nipple drum , and a new percussion lock that you might be able to find a Flintlock lock that could fit and possibly turn it into a Hybrid also.
Always worth a thought.

[charlie b]

Thanks for this and nice work, as usual.

Interesting that it is something I considered a while ago, and even now, when cap supplies dwindled. You could still shoot your rifle with a flint even when caps are not in your stockpile.

[LAGS]

Thank you Charlie b.
Funny thing is.
This whole project started because I had a barrel that most of you guys would think it was total junk.
But the Hybrid idea has had many options for use like you said.
I hope my projects inspire others into doing their own projects.

[LAGS]

I came up with an idea for a tool to change the locks from one to the other with out a bunch of tools.
The nipple drum uses a 3/8" wrench.
The flash hole liner uses a screw driver.
I am thinking about making a combination wrench out of a 1/4" thick piece of steel.
On one end I will have a slot like an open end wrench that is 3/8" wide for the nipple drum.
The other end of the steel strap will be ground to a taper and shaped into a screwdriver point to fit both the flash hole liner and the lock retaining screw.
Somewhere along the length of the shaft.
I will cut in a notch that fits the nipple to use as a nipple wrench.
I will also on the shaft , mount a piece of piano wire on a screw so it can swing out to the side and be used for a nipple and flash hole pick to clean either out if the for some reason get fouled up.
Once I get the combo wrench designed or built , I will post a picture.

Another thought.
I could make this wrench out of an old worn out or broken file that I have.
That steel will be harder , and the handle end will already be halfway shaped to be the screwdriver end.

[armoredman]

Wouldn't it be the bee's knees if the stock had a special spot built into it for that special one-of-a-kind tool?

[LAGS]

Hmm.
My options for storage spots would be a long wood patch box like the Kibler has.
Or put on some kind of military style butt plate that has that hole in it for the cleaning kit storage.
Like a Garand or SKS uses.
Or just build one of those little trap doors into a Hawken style butt plate.
Many many options..
Kind of like making a spot in the bottom of a semi auto gunstock where you put a spare magazine.
That worked on a rifle I built before.

[725]

Not a bad idea. I'm just a dyed in the wool percussion guy.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Lags,

Many years ago I purchased a Pedersoli Pennsylvania Flint Lock in .32 caliber.
After struggling with hang fires and no fire at all I got fed up with the flintlock,
maybe someone could have reworked the lock and made it more reliable.
I went and purchased a Percusion Lock, removed the SS Vent, and fabricated a Drum & Nipple for it.
Now I have a very reliable front loader and have never looked back, but I do have the ability to switch if I so desire.

AntiqueSledMan.

[LAGS]

I am glad that you were able to rework your rifle to your satisfaction.
Like you said, you still have the option on that rifle to shoot it with which type of lock you prefer.
I am sure there are many others that have a problem with rifles with one type of lock.
They to can look into switching the locks on a lot of different rifles like you did.
I hope that this custom rifle that is built out of restored parts works well with both style of locks.

[armoredman]

I seem to remember something like that...
https://i.imgur.com/Slgth5z.jpg

[LAGS]

That is the spare magazine holder that I remember building for that 7.62x39 rifle.
Something like that would work on a ML.
But would be something like a parts box that would look better on a In Line ML.
I made that metal holder insert.
It wasn't something that I bought and just inletted into the stock.
I also built that pistol grip stock

[armoredman]

Yes he did, sorry to thread hi-jack.

https://i.imgur.com/W1xbGzn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/axAvYR6.jpg

[charlie b]

That looks pretty cool.

Lags, the Lyman GPH has a metal plate on the bottom of the stock at the heel. Something like that could be hinged and latched as well if you didn't want to have a side box.

Just to make it interesting you could do a fancy wrench and inlet it into the side of the stock. Then people could just wonder why you had a funny shape tool on the rifle :)

Or, make the hollow in the stock large enough to fit the spare lock and wrench :) Might not leave much wood tho.

[LAGS]

I had thought about storing the wrench under the flat Toe Plate near the butt plate.
I often install Toe Plates on many Hawken Style rifles that I build especially the TC's.
So far.
The wrench I am going to design will be pretty much flat.
The hole on the wrench for the nipple wrench can be used to put a rod thru to give the screwdriver a little more torque to remove the flash hole liner.
Posting a picture of that pistol grip stock is not Jacking this thread.
It does show other options that can be used for my current build.
It also inspires another design for a ML stock.
Like for a In Line model.

[Boerrancher]

I love all of the concepts and ideas. The photos of the process along with the earlier descriptions of it make for an interesting read. I can’t wait to see the finished product.

[indian joe]

Hmm.
My options for storage spots would be a long wood patch box like the Kibler has.
Or put on some kind of military style butt plate that has that hole in it for the cleaning kit storage.
Like a Garand or SKS uses.
Or just build one of those little trap doors into a Hawken style butt plate.
Many many options..
Kind of like making a spot in the bottom of a semi auto gunstock where you put a spare magazine.
That worked on a rifle I built before.

Lags
I had a friend did this (using L & R locks he was importing at the time) he is a pretty keen flintlock shooter and used a little grub screw with the hex centre for an allen key to remove it - drilled the flash hole through then turned the face down so the hex was only about half original depth - then recessed the back of it 45 degree like we do .
He reckoned he got much better ignition than with a screw slot across the face of the liner screw .

[indian joe]

Thank you Armoredman.
I like you posting the pictures for me.


Well Guys , here you go.
Pictures 1 & 2 show the barrel that I am using and the old TC breech plug that the threads are stripped.
The pictures show the style Flintlock breechplug that I fitted to that barrel after I cut off the damaged thread and re tapped it for that breech plug.
Picture 3 showed the two locks that I am using.
Both are made by TC.
But the percussion lock , you can see where I ground in a recess to be able to get that lock to fit a barrel with a nipple drum.
Picture 4 showed the TC barrel in the stock after I fit the barrel for a nipple drum.
The rifle behind it in that picture is a custom TC that I am building also that has the TC pattent style breech plug so you can compare the different looks of the two.
Pictures 5 & 6 show the Hybrid rifle with the nipple drum removed and a flash hole liner installed to work with that flintlock lock.
It is very easy to switch the locks from one to the other.
It can be done in the field or at the range with just a small wrench and a screwdriver in just a couple minutes.

that brass lookin phillips head screw in picture no 6 is goin in the trash !!!!!!

[LAGS]

Those Phillips heads are ONLY for fabrication time.
They are easier to work with repeated times.
And there is a less chance of the screwdriver slipping and then scratching the wood.
Plus
Slotted screws are harder to find any more.
So while building the guns , you do not want to damage them from sanding or taking in and out so many times during the build.

[LAGS]

With the holidays,
I haven't done too much work on the rifle.
But I did make the barrel under rib and installed the nose cap and butt plate.
I put on a Hawken style butt plate instead of the flatter Renegade butt plate.
I also set the length of pull on the stock about 1/2" longer than standard TC hawkens since I started with a rough shaped stock.
I wanted a little longer pull because I am tall and have long arms.
( My arms are really long from always patting myself on the back when doing my builds )
I will send Armoredman some pictures for him to post.

[armoredman]

And here we go.

https://i.imgur.com/ntgmyNh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pKqJxR3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EywR9k2.jpg

[LAGS]

There you go.
The last picture is the Hybrid rifle in the center compared to a TC Hawken and a TC Renegade that I have refurbished.
The top picture is the same rifles , but I shortened the forend on the Hybrid and added the under barrel rib and thimbles.
The center picture is the Hybrid tool for switching out the locks from percussion to flintlock or vise versa.
It is made out of a broken file that has the hole to remove the Nipple.
And a slot that is made as a wrench to unscrew the nipple drum.
The tapered end will be ground into a screwdriver tip to remove the lock screw and unscrew the flash hole liner.
One simple tool makes switching the locks easy.

Now a description of the comparison of the rifles.
The Hybrid is made from a TC Renegade barrel on a Rough Hawken style blank stock that I bought to convert.
The Hybrid barrel is actually only 3/4" shorter than the Renegade barrel.
But it is mounted back 1.5" because I didn't use the TC hook style breech plug or Tang.
You can see that if you look at where the barrel pin is located.
I lined up the rifles based on where the locks are so you can see the differences in modifications.
Like the Hybrid has a 1/2" longer stock pull length.
Which is a way longer pull than the Renegade.
But the overall length is way shorter than the other two rifles.
But the length of the barrel is only actually 3/4" shorter than a stock Renegade barrel.
That will retain the same accuracy as the Renegade.
I put a Hawken style butt plate on the Hybrid since I prefer that one over the flat Renegade butt plate.
But the blank stock could have been shaped to use a Renegade style butt plate or even a Recoil pad if that is what you prefer over a curved butt plate.
Tell me what you think of the new model.
One other thing.
The Hawken style stock has a Cheek Piece on the left side.
The Renegade stock does not have a raised cheek piece.
I like a cheek piece for more accurate shooting.

[LAGS]

I haven't decided if I want to use a brass trigger guard instead of the iron one from the Renegade and same with the ramrod thimbles.
Should I use brass ones.
I intend on installing a brass patch box off a TC Hawken.
Or maybe I can find a steel patch box that I can blue or brown to match the other metal.
This is a Maple wood stock.
It will end up with some Tiger Stripping when I do the finishing on the wood.
Your guys opinions are well worth it to me on how the finished rifle ends up.
This is going to make a darn good hunting rifle.
Light , compact , and .54 cal with a 1:48 deep rifling twist barrel.redone by Hoyt.

[charlie b]

I would go all steel or all brass. I personally like the all steel look.

And it looks really good too.

[Graysmoke]

To all,
I see all the talent on this forum and look at the fine work being done and the ideas in motion I have to step back in awe. I thought I was pretty sharp glueing up two self milled walnut boards making a blank and carving out a stock to make a parts rifle. A lot of work to be sure but pales in comparison to what I see here.
I have a lot to learn!
Graysmoke

[LAGS]

I for the most part agree with you Charlie b.
But sometimes like right now.
Since I am building this rifle like the other two out of parts that I have on hand.
The only curved butt plates I had in stock was the brass ones I have from the Thompson Hawkens.
And same with the patch box.
But I do have many other patch boxes that are from other brands of rifles.
You can see that if you look at that picture of the Renegade that I refurbished.
That is a German silver patch box off a CVA brand of rifle.
And the nose cap that I had and used on the Hybrid happened to be brass.
So it looks like the accessories on this project will all be brass.
But I love the Tiger Striped maple stocks with all blued or browned metal parts , like that one I rebuilt for Armoredman's sons rifle.

[LAGS]

Thank you Graysmoke.
I am glad some people think that I have talent.
But if you read my posts closely.
You will see that lots of times , I ask others for there suggestions not just there opinions on my work.
Also I try to make the posts Educational to help teach you guys how lots of these things are done.
Like another post that I just started about repairing Cracked stocks.
I too started off building new stocks by laminating wood planks together.
For the most part I am "Self Tought" , and I am still learning.
But I want to inspire others to do their own work.
And lots of times I show them the methods that I started doing with simple tools so they can get started easily.
I do not do my work as a business.
But I have made a ton of money selling off my overstock of projects to make room to make more projects.
But that money goes right back into buying more parts and more lesser condition rifles to rebuild.
My Hobby supports itself very well.

[indian joe]

Yep I do the same myself - seen enough of your work here to know you wouldnt use it at the finish
I got lucky a few years back (an old fashioned hardware store in our local town) went there looking for slotted screws - they had none left then one of the guys said "hang on we put those up in the office go pick em over" I walked out of there with a shopping bag half full of packets of slotted head screws - brass wood screws and steel metal threads - ten bucks for the staff christmas party - all the old style cardboard bulk packets 400 and 500 in some of those - not a plastic blister pack in sight.
QUOTE=LAGS;5664765]Those Phillips heads are ONLY for fabrication time.
They are easier to work with repeated times.
And there is a less chance of the screwdriver slipping and then scratching the wood.
Plus
Slotted screws are harder to find any more.
So while building the guns , you do not want to damage them from sanding or taking in and out so many times during the build.[/QUOTE]

[charlie b]

Lags, I figured it was a bin parts issue more than just looks. OTOH I have 'blackened' brass parts before just because I didn't care for the look :) Maybe it comes from all the brass polishing in my Army days :)

[LAGS]

I like the Black , Blued , or Browned parts on the lighter colored stocks like the Tiger Striped Maple.
But on Dark Walnut stocks.
I like the Brass color because then the parts show up easily.
BUT.
On many,( and most ) I Bead Blast the Brass parts so they are Flat finish , rather than Shinny.
It gives them a more antique look.
And it saves me time constantly polishing the parts over a year.
I too , Bead Blast some brass parts so they are flat.
Then coat them with Brass Black Chemicals.
That gives an interesting color and finish.

[charlie b]

There is something to be said for different combinations depending on gun and type of finish being applied.

[charlie b]

LAGS,

How do you finish your stocks? I have a fresh one coming and was considering different methods than what I am used to (poly or rubbed 'tung' oil).

[LAGS]

I finish my stocks several ways.
I choose the finish , mostly because the type of wood it is, and how good that piece of wood is.
I often stain plain maple stocks.
Occasionally I stain Walnut stocks to make them darker, more even or to bring out the grain more.
On Curly Maple stocks I use that Iron Nitrate that I get from Kibler.
There are walnut stocks that I do the finish with Tru Oil.
I also do some stocks that I don't want to be shiney by using Boiled Linseed oil.
Every so once in a while if I want a super Shiney finish, I spray the finished stock with Poly Urethane.
I do so many projects ,I have to choose which finish I want for that gun.
If you see a picture of one of my projects that you need more info, then please just ask what I used on that model.
You mentioned a New stock is coming ?
What kind of wood is it , and what type of finish are you doing on the metal.
Is there brass or iron hardware going on the stock ?

[LAGS]

If you look at pictures of rifles shown in these posts.
That Pistol Grip stock on that CZ bolt action is African Walnut , finished in linseed oil.
The two TC Renegades shown for comparison th this Hybrid are just plain Walnut finished in several coats of Tru Oil.
The stock on this Hybrid is #2 Maple.
It is lightly Curly Maple.
But I intend on doing it in the Iron Nitrate finish to bring out what little tiger striping in that wood.
The top finish will also be done in Tru Oil to give it a satin not to shiny finish.
I will be doing the metal barrel and lock in slow rust blue since I have brass hardware on the stock.
But this rifle may look great with the steel done in Browning.

[charlie b]

...You mentioned a New stock is coming ?
What kind of wood is it , and what type of finish are you doing on the metal.
Is there brass or iron hardware going on the stock ?

LOL, yep a new stock. Just not for a muzzle loader :) It is walnut. The metal is a Howa barreled receiver, blued. It will have a rubber pad on the butt. I haven't decided if I want to inlet a rail into the fore end or not. It will end up being a bench gun. Initially 6.5CM and then a slow twist .308.

Thanks for all of the information. TruOil or Danish Oil were two others I considered. It won't be a super shiny finish and I don't care much about the grain highlights. I usually use poly on other wood projects just because it is fast and easy.

Funny you should mention maple. I used to make contrasting wood fore ends for my rifles with some maple.

Last question, maybe :) I am going to glass bed the action. Should I do that before or after finishing? I suspect before, but, just wanted to ask.

[LAGS]

I would do the glass bedding before you put the finish on the stock.
That way you won't screw up your stock finish if things don't go perfect while bedding.
Like getting drips of epoxy on your hands and they end up on the stock finish.
Or if the bedding squeezes out too much, you don't scratch up the finish trimming the bedding back.
I have bedded finished stocks before.
But it takes lots more time trying to be super carefully with the epoxy or clamping the barrel and action in place.

[indian joe]

Lags
I bought the bits for a hybrid project years ago - nice lock, good piece of maple, gonna be a 54 half stock - primarily flint but convertible to nipple drum percussion was the plan
one day maybe get it done! In the meantime I figured the shoots I go to will allow flinters to shoot in percussion events ----they think its a handicap - ha! - I actually do better with a flinter these days than percussion - particularly standing - so that project is under reconsideration. Meantime I have a couple rough percussion guns for when I get lazy (half stocks so much easier to clean than a long barrel flinter)

Have reconfigured several percussion locks by transferring the innards to a new lockplate - is a good trick if you have a stock you like thats been bodgy inletted - just make a bit bigger plate and re do the inlet

[LAGS]

I also do lots of lock conversions from junk locks that I buy or get on used rifles.
I made a new lock plate for that Pistol I did the thread on that uses a modified Philadelphia Derringer lock.
I also just did a modification on a TC lock to make it work in a Lyman GPR that there is a new post about.
As you saw in that Bubba'ed Barrel Repair thread , where I had to rebuild the lock area of the stock that was over inletted and poorly repaired.
There are lots of options to get different parts to fit different guns.
Lucky on this Hybrid,
The two locks that I am using are from the same manufacture so they both fit the inletting on that one stock.

[indian joe]

I also do lots of lock conversions from junk locks that I buy or get on used rifles.
I made a new lock plate for that Pistol I did the thread on that uses a modified Philadelphia Derringer lock.
I also just did a modification on a TC lock to make it work in a Lyman GPR that there is a new post about.
As you saw in that Bubba'ed Barrel Repair thread , where I had to rebuild the lock area of the stock that was over inletted and poorly repaired.
There are lots of options to get different parts to fit different guns.
Lucky on this Hybrid,
The two locks that I am using are from the same manufacture so they both fit the inletting on that one stock.

I like the lines of that build around the lock plate and the forend cap - much nicer than the originals - subtle - you've a good eye..............................................

[charlie b]

Thanks all, and for the special stuff LAGS.

[LAGS]

The lines on the stock around the lock were actually shaped more for a L&R Queen Ann lock that the rear is pointed.
Since the locks I used were the TC style with the rounder rear of the lock , I rounded the stock side more like the lock shape.
It now looks more like the two other rifles that I have the pictures posted for comparison.
I have another Hawken that I am building that has the pointed rear that I may leave like it is rather than shape it to match the lock shape.

[rbuck351]

A few years back I bought a 32cal muzzle loader with two barrels and two locks. It has a set up cap barrel and lock and a set up flint lock and barrel. Both are TC locks as is the stock and both barrels are GM. It takes just a few minutes to switch. I got the set up at a gun show for $300

[LAGS]

I have done set ups like that one before.
But this time my intent was to use both the same stock and barrel with two different types of ignition.
When I bought a Lyman GPR kit.
I bought a extra barrel that was the fast twist Hunter model.
I ended up just buying another used stock for using the second barrel.

[LAGS]

Yesterday I was able to find time to finish up my Hybrid Rifle.
I will see if Armoredman can post some pictures for me.
I timed how long it takes to switch out the locks .
It takes a whole minute and a half to switch from one to the other.
Now I have to get to the range and see how it fires with both types of ignition.
Now I have to work on the other three projects that I have in progress.
One is a custom Maple stock for a TC Hawken similar to the one built for the Hybrid.
The other two are TC Renagades that I am just refurbishing.
That included that stock that I repaired that crack in one of my other threads.

[armoredman]

Sweet!

[armoredman]

Imgur just changed things, so lets see if these come through correctly.

Forgot to number them last time, so we'll start here,

1.
https://i.imgur.com/NN5Ql9z.jpg

2.
https://i.imgur.com/p7KbhD5.jpg

I was TRYING to get video, but my recorder malfunctioned. So we missed ALL the pics of the process in between these two points.

3.
https://i.imgur.com/yhHGoxq.jpg

4.
https://i.imgur.com/Nn3ig0A.jpg

5.
https://i.imgur.com/s4y26U4.jpg

6.
https://i.imgur.com/3KU02g0.jpg

7.
https://i.imgur.com/32EQbIn.jpg

8.
https://i.imgur.com/p07KsPg.jpg

[LAGS]

Well , you guys finally get to see that the design seems to work.
I will test fire it as soon as I can.
I would do it tomorrow , but it is going to rain.
But I don't see anything that would prevent it from shooting reliably.
When I go to the range , I am taking two other TC Renegades in .54 cal that I have restored but not fired yet.
All three rifles have barrels that were worked on by Bobby Hoyt.
One has the rifling refreshed.
One has a barrel that was re lined and rifled to 1:60 twist.
And then the Hybrid that was a .50 cal that I had re bored to .54 with a 1:48 twist.

[LAGS]

Hmm.
I just came up with another design for a custom rifle that I may try to build.
What if I make a stock and barrel that can be converted to shoot both Right and Left handed.
That would be kind of cool if you had a kid or grandkids that went shooting with you , but shot with the opposite hand that you do.
That way , you only have to invest in one rifle with two separate locks and fill in side plates.
Just a thought.
I do come up with some strange ideas at times that are a challenge to build.
Maybe I could build it out of a TC flintlock barrel with both a right hand and left hand TC locks either percussion or flinters.
I bet I could make it a Hybrid also.

[LAGS]

On that Hybrid , I made some of the brass parts.
Like the pin plates and the brass lock side plate is one that I bought.
But the screw hole was near the top in that dome.
That placed the plate too low to look good.
So I brazed up the hole , and redrilled it lower and countersunk it for that brass 8/32" brass lock screw.

[indian joe]

Hmm.
I just came up with another design for a custom rifle that I may try to build.
What if I make a stock and barrel that can be converted to shoot both Right and Left handed.
That would be kind of cool if you had a kid or grandkids that went shooting with you , but shot with the opposite hand that you do.
That way , you only have to invest in one rifle with two separate locks and fill in side plates.
Just a thought.
I do come up with some strange ideas at times that are a challenge to build.
Maybe I could build it out of a TC flintlock barrel with both a right hand and left hand TC locks either percussion or flinters.
I bet I could make it a Hybrid also.

Lags a bit of fun / something to ponder
We have a guy in our club (at his peak likely the top flintlock shooter in this country) he is blind in his right eye so shoots left hand -- BUT he shoots right hand guns, builds his own so that is a choice. We discussed this one time and here he says "the right hand lock gives me a distinct advantage - dont know why more blokes havent figured this out but a right hand shooter with a right hand lock has the distraction of the falling hammer right there in his sight eye - I dont see it at all nor would you if you used a left hand lock and shot right shoulder! " ......interesting take I thought ..................

[LAGS]

That sounds like an interesting factor that I might try.
I don't see the hammer falling either or the flash doesn't distract me when shooting a right hand rifle right handed.
But your vision like you mentioned can determine which side is best for your shooting.
In fact.
I recently had a problem with my right eye vision.
I am always coming up with Stupid Ideas that most of the times work out really good.
It will take me a while to find all the parts to try and build a rifle like I mentioned.
It isn't the cost , but mostly just finding parts they will work out best.

[LAGS]

@ I J
I just remembered.
Back in the '70s my brother had a girlfriend that was into shooting also.
She was Right Handed.
But her vision was best with her left eye.
She saw me build a shotgun stock for a guy that was offset to the left.
She asked me if I could build her a stock for her .22 that she could hold and shoot with her right hand.
But have the barrel offset so it lined up with her left eye.
They broke up before I got a chance to give it more thought.
I modified the shotgun stock by sanding the right side of the butt stock flat .
Then laminated wood to the right side and reshaped it to work for the guy.

[indian joe]

@ I J
I just remembered.
Back in the '70s my brother had a girlfriend that was into shooting also.
She was Right Handed.
But her vision was best with her left eye.
She saw me build a shotgun stock for a guy that was offset to the left.
She asked me if I could build her a stock for her .22 that she could hold and shoot with her right hand.
But have the barrel offset so it lined up with her left eye.
They broke up before I got a chance to give it more thought.
I modified the shotgun stock by sanding the right side of the butt stock flat .
Then laminated wood to the right side and reshaped it to work for the guy.

interesting ! ------ there is a lady used to shoot on our circuit with one of those - right shoulder left eye - its a crazy lookin thing when its built - I believe her hubby bent the stock to shape. (I have used hot oil on a couple stocks) ---
Good walnut bends like putty - the dark brazilian wood is ok - beech (like a lot of cheap ml's have) is real tough to move and I reckon good maple would be tough too.

[LAGS]

The reason the guy had me offset his shotgun stock to one side was because he was a trap shooter.
And he had a very short fat neck.
Being offset helped him line up the shotgun faster since he didn't have to bend his head over so far and fast.
He said it improved his shooting score a lot.

[charlie b]

I've seen some of those bent stocks. Look weird but some folks love them.

My Lyman GPH is a left hand and I have no problems shooting it right handed. An underhammer is perfect for right/left hand use. I've thought about one of those for a long time.

LAGS, great looking job on that rifle.

[LAGS]

Thank you Charlie.
I hope I can get out tomorrow and see how it shoots.
The wood on that stock is grade 2 curly Maple.
It isn't too tiger striped.
But the iron nitrate did bring out what was there.
The finish is just two coats of True Oil , so it is sealed but not to shiny.

[725]

Good lookers. Hope all goes well at the range. I love your homemade wrench. Might make one for myself.

[LAGS]

Hopefully Armoredman can finish that video showing how easy it is to change the locks with that tool alone.
If I break things like tools.
I keep them and make tools or parts out of them.

[charlie b]

LOL, I've done that a few times in the past as well. Some of those old forged wrenches are tough!

[armoredman]

Well, if I can meet up with you again I can do that - the video was completely ruined through my own idiocy, gotta do it again. However, for those reading, it was approximately 1 minute to switch from percussion to flint.
Are you thinking of two locks on the same barrel with a rotating flash hole cover so as to use one or the other, or a removable system with a plug to cover the opposite side? Interesting thought.

[LAGS]

My idea is to have the sock inletted for a lock on both sides.
And two blank infill plates to fill in the inletting when you pull out one of the locks.
It wouldn't really work or be nice looking if you have both locks with the hammers sticking up at the same time.
But just pulling the hammers off and leaving the lock in the stock wouldn't look too cool.
But like Charlie b mentioned.
An Under Hammer might be the best design for shooting with either hand.
But I know that those are not popular with everybody.

[armoredman]

Interesting...but MORE interesting is some pics and video from today's test fire!

This is;

https://i.imgur.com/V8zVNZJ.jpg

...the same rifle...

https://i.imgur.com/CxPm1Xm.jpg


The VIDEO!

https://youtu.be/t9BW0_TXKJA?si=LQ_SWjwmMn0hwpzN




We weren't the only on es with smokepoles out today - the gent next to us had this nice .58 caliber Springfield out, one he had used as a re-enactor for the Picacho Peak Civil War battle...the only Civil War battle to take place in the Arizona territory.

https://i.imgur.com/A8yE7rh.jpg

And this nice flinter hanging out with the hybrid, I believe he said it is a Traditions build.

https://i.imgur.com/pTLLHmg.jpg

All in all everything worked perfectly, and proved quite accurate, as well! The time from bang to boom with the Hybrid in flint mode was VERY short.
What a great morning, followed with some incredible local Chinese food. :)

[charlie b]

Very cool. The ziplock baggie isn't very traditional :lol:

Wait...'local' Chinese food in Casa Grande?

I guess I shouldn't talk. One of the best Chinese food places I've been to in NM is in Bloomfield.

[LAGS]

It was raining yesterday.
I thought putting the lock in a plastic bag was more weather tight than using a leather bag.
All three .54 rifles fired great.
I shot all three with .535 balls plus tried cast .451 230 gr 45 acp slugs with plastic sabots.
All shot great at 25 yards.
One rifle I had to adjust the rear sight up one turn to raise the impact 6" at the 25 yards.
Then it hit dead center.
I only had one homemade primer misfire the first time I tried it.
But that was I think I didn't put it on the nipple straight.
But second try with it worked perfect.
All three rifles were fired with Homemade 3f powder that has a density of 85%
The loads were 70 grains of volume.
So it is about equal to 50 grains of factory powder.

[armoredman]

Fun stuff - very short lag from bang to boom with the flintlock. The difference was obvious when the gentleman with the Traditions flinter was trying to fire, with multiple misfires. When it did, there was a lag from bang to boom that could almost be measured in tenths of seconds. Turned out he was using 3F in the priming pan and wondering why it wasn't working. LAGS gave him a little 4F homemade powder, and the Traditions rifle sparked right up.

[Hannibal]

Fun stuff - very short lag from bang to boom with the flintlock. The difference was obvious when the gentleman with the Traditions flinter was trying to fire, with multiple misfires. When it did, there was a lag from bang to boom that could almost be measured in tenths of seconds. Turned out he was using 3F in the priming pan and wondering why it wasn't working. LAGS gave him a little 4F homemade powder, and the Traditions rifle sparked right up.

Nice. Details matter. Even with flinters.

[charlie b]

I would think that's one of the advantages of making your own powder. You get a good supply of the fine stuff for flinters.

LAGS, I use a big plastic range box when I fire my ML. No traditional stuff here :)

[LAGS]

I use a plastic tackle box for my range box for my BP shooting.
When I use to only shoot one caliber at a time , everything just went into my possible bag.

[charlie b]

I have never had a traditional bag. Even back when I was hunting I used those water resistant speed loaders and kept them in a pants pocket. These days I weigh all my powder charges and put each into a plastic tube. Bullets are either in a tray or another tube (haven't shot round ball for many years).

And, yes, I have several ziplock bags of stuff in my range box :)

[Sasquatch-1]

bought one of these a while back for a muzzleloader range box. Works great!

323272

[LAGS]

I have to have a Traditional Possibles bag.
I never bought one over the years.
But I have made several of them , and only have one left.
I like to do all the things like our forefathers did.
Just to see what they went thru to literally survive.

[LAGS]

Hay
I just realized that today I think was the first time Armoredman fired a Flintlock.
I was the one that introduced him to BP rifles.
Now he has experience in other models.
I forgot to ask him how he liked the flinter on the Hybrid.
He did shoot the same rifle with both locks , but not much to get a full opinion on which one he likes best.
This Hybrid could be used to introduce kids to BP rifles and let them fire it in both percussion or flint so they use the same rifle and can compare which type of ignition system they prefer.
That works for adults too.

[armoredman]

Answer - it was nifty. The feeling of bang to boom was different, indeed, but being that the basic feel of it is almost identical to my T/C Renegade, it felt just fine. I kinda prefer percussion, because I am a lazy American who likes to do things the easy way. :) And, far more weather resistant. However, having a flintlock alternative is an attractive idea.
For kids - THAT'S a great idea - we know someone who majors in that area.

[LAGS]

There is a debate about the percussion being more weather resistant.
I don't have a personal opinion on that.
But lots of guys think the flinter is better for hunting in not so perfect weather.
Like that guy shooting that flinter at the range yesterday.
I would like to help that guy you know teach kids how to do Muzzleloaders.
This Hybrid would be good for that type of exposure .

[armoredman]

That would be excellent. He may have more time available in a month or so.

[Sasquatch-1]

I have to have a Traditional Possibles bag.
I never bought one over the years.
But I have made several of them , and only have one left.
I like to do all the things like our forefathers did.
Just to see what they went thru to literally survive.

I also have several possible's bags I have made. I buy the scrap leather packs from Hobby Lobby. I do have to check every time I go because they do not always have the appropriate type of leather.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=LAGS;5687271]There is a debate about the percussion being more weather resistant.
I don't have a personal opinion on that.
But lots of guys think the flinter is better for hunting in not so perfect weather.

I have seen those fellers say that stuff - am a keen flintlock shooter - sorry to say I dont believe em. I do better at most offhand "games" with a flintlock than with a cap or even cartridge gun simply because I built that rifle for me - it points where I am looking and it hits right where I point it - (often the lookin' and pointin' gets a tad confused tho)

Waterproof a cap gun for hunting ? just smear some boolit lube around the cap after its seated -----------------

If we talkin about wandering about the bush with the nipple open and no cap mounted (safe gun) thats a different argument - I always hunted on my own - so I carried a loaded gun - capped, trigger set, half cock.