Do toy cap gun caps work for BP? Well...

[armoredman]

Yes, but actually...no.
To clarify, LAGS did the work on making the gear, me and Da Boy just tested it.

The two different kinds of caps as well as the test nipples in the container.

1.
https://i.imgur.com/nLMZsgP.jpg


2.
https://i.imgur.com/sE6V5V2.jpg

3.
https://i.imgur.com/y491qk1.jpg

4.
https://i.imgur.com/4xE4hTm.jpg

You can seeing pic how much the short test nipple has been narrowed to allow the plastic cap to sit tight. One thing that was no problem at all is the caps did sit tight and easy, no problem. Picture two is the two different test nipples, one short, (reccomended for the pistol), and the longer one for the rifle. Due to issues with my sainted mother in law, I was only able to bring out the single shot Hip Howitzer.

5.
https://i.imgur.com/tWZKHOd.jpg

6.
https://i.imgur.com/6uS3Hc4.jpg

7.
https://i.imgur.com/HYsFFFF.jpg

In pic 5 we see the cap is set on a blank charge of 10 grains of 3F Olde Eynsford. 3 Caps were tried, with no effect. I figured maybe the loose nature of the blank charge might do it, so I tapped that out and replaced with 30 grs of 3f and a patched Hornaday .535 ball. Again, no results, until I replaced the the caps with an actual Winchester BP magnum cap - THEN we had thunder and lightning! After that, I switched to the longer nipple, (can't hurt to try, right?), as seen in pics 6 and 7. I also tried the other caps, the ones from the revolver "rounds". Again, nothing. I could hear the caps detonating, but I assume that the flame is not strong enough to reach from the nipple, through the lock barrel, and into the chamber. I HAVE been told that a direct flame lock, one where the nipple is directly over the powder, worked, but this one didn't have the oomph to reach. Again, I had to replace the plastic cap with a standard...but THAT one didn't work due to some plastic cutting from the previous toy cap being inside the lock work, I'm guessing. I had to put a tiny amount of 3F inside the lock barrel to ensure ignition, and whatever was blocking it went bye-bye.
In short, as they stand now, with this type of lock, they do NOT work. However, LAGS and I are thinking about trying a LITTLE bit of Prime All inside the caps, see if that will do the trick. Still an experiment in progress, and as I told Da Boy, a bad day at the range beats a good day at work. Also, since we were just testing an ignition system, we didn't have a target up, so I was aiming at the 200 yard berm. When the last load discharged, again, 30 grs 3F under a .535 ball, I was aiming at the 200 yard berm, seen here in this old pic with the 300 yard berm looking like a line sitting on top of it.

https://i.imgur.com/fcFTHkJ.jpg

Aimed dead center of the 200 yard berm, and the ball hit dead center on the 300 yard berm. Perhaps Hip Howitzer isn't just a clever name...

[LAGS]

I want to thank you for doing the test firing and this post.
These caps might work if I do a little more playing with them.
But if this is something that takes a little too much playing with to get them to work it might not be a good option for something to depend on.
If we have to prime the toy caps , it might be just a better option to make your own primers with a Cap Maker Tool.

[rancher1913]

add a little black powder to cap and then a second cap punched from roll caps on top, makes a hotter cap.

[LAGS]

Armoredman said that is something that he could try.
That could work too.
Just put the powder in and put in a drop of like Acetone with a little Nail Polish mixed in.
Or try water mixed with a little Dextrin which is nothing more than Corn Starch powder that has been toasted in the oven then reground.
That is what I use for binder in some of my homemade BP.
One other option that may be faster and simpler.
Use one of those Brass Nipple Primer powder dispensers.
You just use that primer tool on the nipple.
Then put the Toy Cap on the nipple.
That might work really good.
This is why I played with the Toy Caps and worked with Armoredman to do testing and the post.
It gives us a way to get opinions from other members to get this to work well , and give all of us an option to play with if we can not find any primers.

[armoredman]

Life is always a work in progress - we'll figure it out.

[GregLaROCHE]

Is the primer material exposed ? I remember the ones I saw had a paper card in them.

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks for doing the research on those plastic caps. I’ve often wondered whether they buck the general trend nowadays. I’ve found that modern roll caps are way undercharged, no doubt for liability issues (“My 6-year-old doesn’t hear a word I say! Those loud caps have damaged his delicate eardrums!”).

I bought some of those West German roll caps (that are supposed to be “the best” nowadays) in order to punch out the centers to use in my NAA Turret Rifle. It takes a minimum of two centers, one atop the other, to fire the charge in the turret, and the flame path is short and straight on that design.

Every now and then I see a roll of Kilgore caps on a table at a gun show, always at a “Rare&Vintage Collector’s Item” price. They used to brag in their advertisements about how “LOUD!!!” they were.

No more. We’ve become a nation of whimps.

[n.h.schmidt]

If you want to use the role caps,you can lift the dots right off the paper. I used to do this with good results. I would soak a strip of the cap role in water. Let it soak for a min. After that the thin top paper will come off with a little rubbing,exposing the dots. You can then lift the dots right off the base paper. Use a sharp knife .I used to use 12 dots in my cap cups. This gives good power. Not as good as the powders we now use,still useful though. The water does not harm the dots .Once dry they still work. I stopped doing this when the powders became available. Plus the cost of so many dots being used made the powders a better option.

[Richard66]

Has anybody tried the toy caps on revolvers I just bought some and they all pop first try but I have not had time to try them with the gur loaded yet just popped some in the unloaded gun.

[LAGS]

Those smaller Toy Caps did have a little cardboard disc in them when I bought them.
I took those out because it blocked the flash from going down the nipple.
The gun I used to test them was an old New Orleans Ace Derringer.
The nipple is at the back center of the barrel.
So the flame only had to travel the length of the nipple.
Those did work on blank loads if that cardboard disc had been removed.
Revolvers might use the Toy Cap because the nipple backs up to the powder in the cylinder.
But you will have to trim down the nipple diameter to get those little caps to fit.
I don't have a revolver to try them on.
But Armoredman does.
But he doesn't have the tools or extra nipples to try and file down the nipple shaft diameter.

[Richard66]

Those smaller Toy Caps did have a little cardboard disc in them when I bought them.
I took those out because it blocked the flash from going down the nipple.
The gun I used to test them was an old New Orleans Ace Derringer.
The nipple is at the back center of the barrel.
So the flame only had to travel the length of the nipple.
Those did work on blank loads if that cardboard disc had been removed.
Revolvers might use the Toy Cap because the nipple backs up to the powder in the cylinder.
But you will have to trim down the nipple diameter to get those little caps to fit.
I don't have a revolver to try them on.
But Armoredman does.
But he doesn't have the tools or extra nipples to try and file down the nipple shaft diameter.

:goodpost: thx

[n.h.schmidt]

Richard66 The toy caps are very corrosive. Even test firing you need to clean the revolver. I went down this road years ago. Decided to go with a Cap Maker and the powders. I got tired of all the failures.
You guys using the rolled up soft copper. Are you having problems with the copper hanging up in the die? How about the cups sticking on the forming post. There is almost no spring back with this and the cups don't want to come off. I did have luck with a coat of Jhonson's paste wax on the side that becomes the inside of the cup. It lubes and is not sticky.

[Richard66]

Richard66 The toy caps are very corrosive. Even test firing you need to clean the revolver. I went down this road years ago. Decided to go with a Cap Maker and the powders. I got tired of all the failures.
You guys using the rolled up soft copper. Are you having problems with the copper hanging up in the die? How about the cups sticking on the forming post. There is almost no spring back with this and the cups don't want to come off. I did have luck with a coat of Jhonson's paste wax on the side that becomes the inside of the cup. It lubes and is not sticky.

Yes I always clean and I now have the #11 cap maker also

[armoredman]

I cleaned the Hip Howitzer very thoroughly that night. It is rapidly becoming one of our favorite black powder firearms.

[rancher1913]

the roll caps from china suck, the ones from germany have better power and are more reliable. a paper punch works for punching the dots out of roll caps.

[HamGunner]

The Legend brand toy caps from Germany are superior to any that I have seen lately and I order them online as I have not found any locally. Those from Taiwan are also fairly decent, but the Chinese caps are junk.

Early on, I tried just placing a couple of caps inside my homemade percussion cups (at that time I used two layers of soda can for the cups) and they would work about 80% of the time in my revolvers, but they were weaker than factory caps by far.

I now use .007 aluminum flashing or .006-.007 brass sheeting for the cups and punch the cups though a home made die to smooth out the serrations a bit and to flatten the slightly rounded head of the cup. These caps that are punched through my die fit the nipples much better and seem to help increase the dependability of the ignition.


For the percussion compound, I have been using basically the corrosive Prime-All type percussion powder mix, but after I place one drop of Acetone/Duco Cement on top of the pressed in percussion compound, I also press one dot of Legend brand toy cap gun cap that I have punched out with a paper hole punch on top of the still wet compound just before the Acetone has all dried out. I suspect that just a thin piece of paper pressed in would work just as well.

My revolvers fire easily and at near 100%. From my testing, the velocity ES is slightly higher than factory caps, but not by a whole bunch.

One thing to note: The mixture in the toy caps is Armstrong Mixture and is very unstable, so wetting and scrapping a whole lot of the dots into one container is maybe okay as long as the mixture does not dry out. Once dry, just a small amount of Armstrong Mixture has a lot of shattering strength and like I stated, it is very unstable.

I read about a warehouse and buildings adjacent to it that were wiped off the map and a good many employees killed by an explosion of a large amount of the processed and boxed up toy caps stacked up on pallets in the warehouse. It was not determined what initially set the explosion off, but once the conditions were right to set them off, they all went off with quite a lot of strength. Near detonation speed.

[LAGS]

This morning I took some of those Toy Caps and installed a little Prime All compound to them.
All I added was less than 1/2 of a small primer soldered to a brass rod.
I put a drop of Acetone mixed with a little nail polish remover.
When they dried , they fired well.
They set off blank loads well.
But that again was with that Ace Derringer and a Philadelphia Derringer.
The toy caps I am using are the smaller ones that come in strips for single feed toy guns.
I think these Improved Toy Caps will work in Armoredman's revolvers.
So if I get the chance , I will trim some nipple shanks down for him to try.

[armoredman]

Interesting...

[indian joe]

I want to thank you for doing the test firing and this post.
These caps might work if I do a little more playing with them.
But if this is something that takes a little too much playing with to get them to work it might not be a good option for something to depend on.
If we have to prime the toy caps , it might be just a better option to make your own primers with a Cap Maker Tool.t
Lags I have used these little plastic caps - no go for starters but all it took was prime the nipple with FFFFG - used a little horn flintlock primer with a push spout - quick, easy and 100% effective. I doubt you would get a better way to make them work - we get them in the reject shop for about a buck fifty for pack of 144.
I think this might be dangerous on a sixgun (chainfires across the back end of cylinder maybe?) but for a single shot muzzleloader --just tooooo easy. I didnt modify the nipple just shoved em on the standard one.

What I used was the ones that come in a circle ready to load - 8 shots per circle I think ????? --forgot how many - its a bit of work cutting them up into singles - but these things under homemade powder and shooting into a dirt berm to reclaim the lead - makes for darn cheap fun

[LAGS]

Hmm
Thank you IJ.
I had not considered the chance of the toy caps causing a chain fire on a revolver.
I don't see what would cause that if the Toy caps fit tight.
But it is well worth thinking about.
But I haven't shot too many BP revolvers for the past 20 years.
Maybe some other revolver shooters can throw in their opinion.
I think the only way to test them for chain firing is to take videos of the primers going off on a revolver.
But there has to be someone who has tried or used the toy caps on revolvers.
I think I can remember seeing a YouTube of a guy shooting a revolver with Toy Caps.

[Hossfly]

Indian Joe was talking about putting FFFFg powder in the nipple then a cap, might cause chain fire.

[LAGS]

That might be correct.
But the revolvers do work with Homemade caps well.
And basically a toy cap with some added paper toy caps or some Prime All should work like a homemade cap does.

[Graysmoke]

LAGS you are right. After getting the kit and prim-all I was trying to go cheaper and used paper caps. Had to use 4 caps per load to get the power near factory for best ignition. Tedious at best, and no useing to clear the fire channel, they left paper normally burned in the way to block the next shot. This paper was consumed at ignition of the powder charge but left with just the cap going off.
They never failed to light the charge but so much work, prime-all stood as the best option.
Graysmoke

[armoredman]

Ah, video request? I'll see if I have a spare revolver nipple to modify...

[Tasbay]

I have been using the Plastic toy Cap Gun Caps for years (15-20) and just a couple of weeks ago fired off 32 shots without a misfire, that's actually pretty normal. I use them on all my percussion rifles from T/C Hawken , CVA Mountain Rifle to my Zoil Zouave`s and others as well all with No11 nipples. No trimming down of the nipple has been done on any of my rifles.
What I do is take out the white insert from inside the cap and sprinkle in some Homemade Black Powder (just screened) till the cups are about half full. I gently compress the powder into the cup with a match stick. Then give them a good spray with the cheapest hair spray I can find. Give them a couple of days to dry and then use.
All my shooting is done with homemade black powder and it is very rear that I get a misfire and if I do a CCI cap usually will not light that charge. As you noted you need to carry a pin to remove the small plastic wad that sometimes gets jammed in the nipple top.
The caps I use are the ones made in Taiwan but have also used the Chinese ones with comparable success as they have the added black powder.

Yes the toy cap compound is corrosive. I clean my guns the day of shooting or next day and no corrosion has occurred on any of them.

[armoredman]

OK, so you add powder to the cap to make it function, that was something we had discussed, but AS IS, do they work for you? The test was with AS IS toy caps.
Does the cheap hair spray keep the powder in place in the cap securely? Do you have to do anything special to transport them after they are assembled?

[Tasbay]

OK, so you add powder to the cap to make it function, that was something we had discussed, but AS IS, do they work for you? The test was with AS IS toy caps.
Does the cheap hair spray keep the powder in place in the cap securely? Do you have to do anything special to transport them after they are assembled?

The Taiwanese caps will work as is on my percussion guns but is not as reliable. The hair spray secures the compound in the cap and I give them a fairly good spray to wet. I just leave them in the plastic frame and cut them out as needed. To transport they are replaced in the original packaging. That said I have also in past put them in old CCI percussion cap tins.
CCI caps are available here at a couple of places at $40 a tin but shipping is an issue. The Toy caps can still be found at $1 a 72 cap card.

The Toy caps are quite a tight fit on the niple so roll them on from the side and don't push them down ,as they are quite volatile, let the hammer seat them on impact.

[LAGS]

In playing with the toy caps so far.
I had a couple pop when trying to push them on to a standard #11 size nipple.
It doesn't seem like a common issue.
But if you are putting them on a loaded barrel.
It could cause a dangerous accidental discharge.
But I haven't had that issue when I have the nipple turned down a bit to let the Toy Cap slide on easier.
It doesn't take much to trim down an old extra nipples.
You can just use a drill motor and a file.

[Driver man]

I use the Taiwanese Star Caps but prime the nipple with 4F powder that I have ground between 2 sheets of glass. I have noted that the caps have much reduced power from just a few years ago

[Eddie Southgate]

Buy a tap a cap tool and use roll caps or greenie stickums if you can find them , both work. Use two of the roll caps per cup. Beer can works fine.

[LAGS]

When I was a kid.
I made my caps with a punch and a piece of wood with a hole drilled in it .
The Greenie Stickum caps worked best back then.
But when California changed the max sound requirements for toy caps , they stopped selling them.
But that was way back in the '70s.
Now I use cap maker tool and "Prime All" chemicals.
But I found it makes better caps if I use double layer of soda or beer cans for the cups.
But I am again playing with using the plastic Toy Caps , just to explore more options.

[indian joe]

Indian Joe was talking about putting FFFFg powder in the nipple then a cap, might cause chain fire.

whoa guys I didnt explain
being the lazy dude that I am I was (still am) just squooshing the plastic caps onto a standard nipple --= -- some of em will split up the side from that - hence my thought of maybe more chance of a chainfire ? If I was to do as Lags did and turn the nipples to correct size for the cap ?? proly no more chance than with a normal cap??

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=LAGS;5656680]Those smaller Toy Caps did have a little cardboard disc in them when I bought them.
I took those out because it blocked the flash from going down the nipple.

that may have been why these didnt work well for me

[LAGS]

I am working with Armoredman to try and refine using these toy caps.
He does the range testing for me because I am so busy with my projects , that I don't get to the range that often.
We both will keep you guys posted on how our tests or designs work out.
I also like working with Armoredman so I can actually show someone how my projects are done.
I hope it inspires him to also do some of the projects.

[armoredman]

I am working with Armoredman to try and refine using these toy caps.
He does the range testing for me because I am so busy with my projects , that I don't get to the range that often.
We both will keep you guys posted on how our tests or designs work out.
I also like working with Armoredman so I can actually show someone how my projects are done.
I hope it inspires him to also do some of the projects.

:grin:

[Boerrancher]

I too have used the ring plastic caps in the past, but I did have to prime the nipple. Being the practical sort that I am, I started selling my cap guns and buying flintlocks. If I have to prime the nipple and then cap it, I might as well just prime a pan and be done with. Eventually caps came back into stock and I bought a couple thousand, but by then I was already hooked on flintlocks. You all can blame Ric for that one.

[Tasbay]

Armoredman/ Lags: any update on this thread?

[armoredman]

No, not yet - between bizarre work schedules and rainy days, I haven't been able to get back out there. The two times recently I did try, the place was absolutely full. It is STILL on the to do list - I have the little box full of supplies on my desk to remind me.

[trapper9260]

Buy a tap a cap tool and use roll caps or greenie stickums if you can find them , both work. Use two of the roll caps per cup. Beer can works fine.
I use that tool to make caps for my side hammers and you use the roll caps that is made in Germany . Stay way from the ones from China they not worth it . What I do is put one cap on the bottom of the cap then add some magnesium powder in it then put another cap over it . Since with a side hammer you know how that works so the mag help with more flame to go to the breech . Need to adjust as needed . I done it with 3 and 4 F powder it needed a boost like I did with the mag . powder.

[armoredman]

Just an FYI - we went to the range today to try this out...they have the entire dadgum range reserved for a Cowboy Action Shooting annual meet for the rest of the weekend. Dagnabbbit.

[LAGS]

You should have took out your C&B pistols and joined their club.
Oh.
That's right.
We haven't modified the nipples to fit the toy caps for your revolvers yet.
I don't think they would let you compete with that Hip Howitzer.

[armoredman]

Nope, they don't like regular people getting involved in their thing. I went once, invited by a leader, but when they did the mid-day barbeque, my son and I weren't allowed to join in, even offering to pay for it. So, I refuse to do anything with Dusty Bunch or Gathering of the Posses.

[libertyman777]

I have this one and some rolls of paper caps to experiment with. I’m gonna try using som 4f too
https://sharpshooter-22lr-r noeloader.myshopify.com/products/11-percussion-cap-maker

[armoredman]

Ok, so FINALLY we were able to try some of these out. Naturally I forgot the modified nipple, so I pushed them down over the regular nipple. The plastic split, but they stayed on in place long enough to shoot.

https://youtu.be/BMEcld2adE8

Fired three rounds, all three worked just fine. However, one split as being put on and all the filling fell out, jammed up the nipple, and necessitated removal of the nipple and picking it out with the nipple pick, was very quick. If I hadn't been a dunderhead, that wouldn't have been an issue.
Now to start work on making my own with the provided materials!

[Tasbay]

Ok, so FINALLY we were able to try some of these out. Naturally I forgot the modified nipple, so I pushed them down over the regular nipple. The plastic split, but they stayed on in place long enough to shoot.

https://youtu.be/BMEcld2adE8

Fired three rounds, all three worked just fine. However, one split as being put on and all the filling fell out, jammed up the nipple, and necessitated removal of the nipple and picking it out with the nipple pick, was very quick. If I hadn't been a dunderhead, that wouldn't have been an issue.
Now to start work on making my own with the provided materials!

I use them on standard nipples. Roll them on from the side with your thumb. Don`t push down on them as they are volatile (more so than a CCI Cap). Carry a pin to clean out the nipple top if plugged. Remove the paper insert, dribble in some BP and douse with hairspray. I tend to think you guys are over thinking this. I have used thousands of these.

[armoredman]

Thank you for your words of wisdom. When the nipple became plugged I used the nipple pick in my nipple wrench, easy peasy. The caps DID have the cardboard removed, extra BP, (4 F - what do YOU use?), in and sealed with nail polish.
Do you have examples and/or video of your use thereof?

[LAGS]

It is nice that the Toy Caps are working.
I think those are going to be found cheaper than the primer caps you got in Toombstone.
Plus it is a good back up others can use if they can not find primer caps at all , and do not wish to invest in buying a cap maker or the stuff like Prime All chemicals to make the caps.

[armoredman]

Yes, the percussion caps I bought in Tombstone were WAY over priced, but when you can't find them anywhere else...I look forward to more experimentation along the way.

[Tasbay]

Thank you for your words of wisdom. When the nipple became plugged I used the nipple pick in my nipple wrench, easy peasy. The caps DID have the cardboard removed, extra BP, (4 F - what do YOU use?), in and sealed with nail polish.
Do you have examples and/or video of your use thereof?

Yep sounds like you are on the right track. For powder I just use screened homemade, that's pretty much all I use for all my BP related tinkering now days. I found the toy caps will split if pushed on, but they seem to stretch over the unmodified nipple if rolled on from the side.