Winchester 1885 LW problem

[Kermit1]

This problem is similar to the post in 2021 on the H&A 25-20 SS rifle.

Winchester 1885 Low Wall problem

Here is an interesting problem to solve. I have a Winchester 1885 Low Wall with a single set trigger and peep sight on the upper tang. The serial range puts it at 1887. It is an early Low Wall as it has the high block and not the scalloped block on later models, It has the scalloped receiver and not the flat surface receiver as on later models. The action shows some patina, but is very sound and tight. It came to me without the butt stock (Butt stock on order from CPA). The barrel is a #1 and was stamped on the top flat of the barrel .22 LONG. The barrel has been rebored and rifled by J. Stevens A&T Co. some time along the line, but the new caliper stamp was not applied. It is in .25 caliber, appearing at first to be 25-20 Single Shot with the extractor fitted and the firing pin made to CF. I got hold of some new manufactured smokeless loaded cases from Buffalo Arms in 25-20 SS, RCBS die set, and some cast bullets. The rifle was cleaned and inspected and found to be sound. I inserted the 25-20 SS round into the chamber and it does not fit, as it will fall under the extractor and is a loose fit in the chamber. The extractor is cut too large to catch the 25-20 SS rim.

So now I am thinking, what is going on here! I cast the chamber and took some measurements. The OAL and profile is good for the 25-20 SS (and not 25-20 WCF or .256 Win Mag) as no sharper shoulder is present. Taking measurements of the rim area at the breach end and extractor, it fits the 38/357 rim diameter perfectly. The chamber is larger in diameter at the head too. So now what is really going on here? Has it been chambered for some obscure cartridge that used the 38/357 case head, 25-20 SS shallow taper profile, OAL and in .25 caliber?

I have a few choices and I will list them here.

1-Cut the breach end off, rethread, fit and chamber to 25-20 Single Shot, fit a new extractor. I have the die set, and cases. I would have to rent the 25-20 SS finish reamer. Re-fit the forearm and main spring attachment point.

2-Install a barrel liner in 25-20 WCF from Brownells, fit the new extractor. I would need to buy the deep hole drill and liner from Brownell. 25-20 WCF die set, cases and rent the finish reamer..

3-Set the barrel back, rethread, fit and chamber to .256 Win Mag. I would not need to fit the extractor as it would fit the case head just right. I would need to purchase a die set, cases and rent the finish reamer.

I’m leaning on #1 as it will be less demanding as far as time and money spent. The question still stands - What is this rifle chambered for?

chamber cast
https://i.postimg.cc/7Zj9srdM/DSCN0815.jpg (https://postimg.cc/0zd7jF8b)
https://i.postimg.cc/MGSMSp8x/DSCN0817-Copy.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RWgV19Fb)

25-20SS in chamber
https://i.postimg.cc/Yq9xtSwz/DSCN0820.jpg (https://postimg.cc/fkGdKDyV)

357 rim in chamber
https://i.postimg.cc/0QvKD0ZY/DSCN0805.jpg (https://postimg.cc/McsG8RCH)

25-20SS with .357 rim size diff
https://i.postimg.cc/G2Kk1W7f/DSCN0812_-_Copy.jpg (https://postimg.cc/TLyyV4Xj)

open chamber
https://i.postimg.cc/N0mrKz8G/DSCN0804.jpg (https://postimg.cc/7CPLcXQj)

https://i.postimg.cc/nh6DcJDw/DSCN0810.jpg (https://postimg.cc/dhj14gn8)

[old turtle]

I have done some research and the 25-36 Marlin looks closest. Relining the barrel is a good idea if you can do it. This preserves the length of the barrel and would guarantee proper bore diameter. I had John Taylor reline a barrel and it shoots extremely well. Just random thoughts from a mind filled with crazy thoughts

[Slugster]

I would first do a chamber cast to find out what it is you are dealing with.

[Kermit1]

As noted above, chamber cast done. It looks just like a 25-20 SS but the rim is larger (357 mag size @ .408"). The chamber cast shows the same profile and length (Slight taper with very little shoulder). I can't find anything in my research that fits it. The 25-36 Marlin is too big (the rim dia is to large).

I'm trying to post photos but just can't seem to get it right. I'll work on getting photos posted of the chamber cast and extractor.

Photos added to post

[John Taylor]

Setting the barrel back will create another problem, the dovetail for the main spring and forearm hanger will be in the wrong place. If the rifling is good the chamber only can be lined. if the rifling is not great then the barrel could be lined. T.J.'s has a two 25 caliber liners. I did a low wall in 25-20 SS last month. The extractor can be built up with weld and re-cut, do them often.

[JDHasty]

If the OP can purchase a liner drill from Brownells he has better connections than yours truly. They have not had them in stock in years. My inclination is that JT is spot on in his analysis and recommendations. If it were mine, it would be sitting in his shop in line to have the chamber lined and recut if the bore is good.

I’m wondering if somewhere along the line someone came up with an idea to use 357 Max as a parent case.

[Chill Wills]

I just re-read this again for some reason. I guess it was interesting and I do these kinds of projects too. So, if the rifle and breachblock started life as a 22lr, are there signs and evidence that the breachblock was converted to centerfire? Or do you think it is a replacement.

What did you end up doing to the chamber?

[AntiqueSledMan]

Why not form some .357 Maximum cases to your chamber?

AntiqueSledMan.

[JDHasty]

No sooner than I post about Brownells being out of stock on piloted liner drills, I get email notification that they are back in stock. I spoke with them about a month ago and they had no idea if/when they would be available.

[Kermit1]

"UP DATE 1-2-24" Well thank you for your interest. This is what we decided on. The barrel is off. I will cut back the breach end, rethread and chamber it to 25-20 SS. I will fit the forearm and main spring attachments. Still waiting for the butt stock and butt plate from CPA (it's shipped). When the butt stock gets here, I will fit it to the action. The action is all apart and will be cleaned up. All the parts/barrel will be browned. The new extractor is on order from MVA too and will be fitted to the barrel. Still a project in the making (but well on its way). The barrel will go from 24" to 23" but that's OK. The forearm will be shorter too, but thats OK too. This will be made into a safe shooter to pass on to my grandson.

Even though Brownells has all the stuff to drill and re-line it, we will just cut back the barrel and rechamber, as the rifling is good.

As far as the breach block goes, I dont really know. It is a very early low wall action with the high block. It was in 22 long then conveted to CF sometime along its life. If they put a HW CF block in so be it, as it all works fine and the fitting is tight and sound. It also has the single set trigger where you push the single trigger forward to set it. (This single set trigger took me awhile to figure out. I found that the single set catch hook spring was missing. Made one to fit and it works nice).

[Chill Wills]

Thanks for the great update! It sounds like you have it well in hand. Your grandson will like it now and will take great pride in telling friends in 40 years how he came to get it!

Winchester made at least two single-set triggers, maybe more. One early one, many more of the later one. Is yours one the early type?
I have an early one on a low wall 22rf and I am trying to learn a little about it.

[JDHasty]

Instead of cutting a dovetail for the foreend I went with De Haas’ recommendation to use a barrel hanger kinda like the ones from Steve Stratton I have fitted to all of my Contender and Encore barrels, but shorter. I used an old lathe tool we dug out of a bucket at my buddy’s house and I ground and filed it to shape, then I contoured it to fit my barrel. About an hour is all it took. Then I mounted it to the barrel with a couple machine screws and inletted the fore end and bedded the foreend to it using Pro Bed. I would think that you wouldn’t have to cut anything off the fore end if you did that. I think it was in the Mr Single Shot’s Gunsmithing Idea Book. PDF’s are online of that book.

Jim Wisner cautioned me to get the spring perch location spot on. I’ll try and dig up the dimensions he sent me and will append them to this post if successful.


The mainspring base hole.
Its the Winchester the ODD # 10 x 35 1/2 tpi, the mainspring screw will not thread into the forearm stud and vis a versa, while the forearm screw and the side tang screws are a # 10 x 36 tpi

From the front most flange/face/lip of the receiver to the center of the hole is 2.960” on mine
From the centerline of the bore down to the flat of the base the mainspring lays on .650”

[JDHasty]

Here ya go. If you want to consider the De Haas fore end attachment.

https://ia600909.us.archive.org/20/items/FrankDeHaasMrSingleShotsGunsIdeaBook/Frank%20de%20Haas%20-%20Mr%20Single%20Shot%27s%20Guns%20Idea%20Book.pdf

Page 152 & 153

[JDHasty]

Bert Hartman can probably tell you exactly when it was made and it’s original caliber.

Win1885@msn.com

Whenever I pester him he usually responds right away.