can't find load data for 2 commercial cast coated 30-30 bullets

[linko]

Hi, I have 2 cast bullets and can't not find load data. I am shooting these in my 336 marlin lever gun

I checked all my loading manuals for these two bullets

Chey-Cast 165 gr coated 30-30 (.309)
SNS 158 gr coated (.309)

Can anyone point me in the right direction to find load data?

[RickinTN]

Use starting data for a 170 grain cast and work up (Or down, as the case may be) to your satisfaction or until your rifle says to stop.
Good Luck,
Rick

[linko]

Thanks RickinTN, I have been doing just that.

Hodgdon loads for a 160gr cast LFN are 17.5 - 21.0

For the SNS 158 gr I am starting with 20.2 - 20.6
For the heavier Chey-Cast 165 gr should I start with a load above or below 20.2 - 20.6?

[shaggybull]

I have and old Lyman book comb bound falling apart has 165gc loads. 2400 20grs, 4759 14grs, 4198 26-28grs, 4895 30grs, 3031 30grs.

[linko]

I have and old Lyman book comb bound falling apart has 165gc loads. 2400 20grs, 4759 14grs, 4198 26-28grs, 4895 30grs, 3031 30grs.

appreciate. Is the H4895 30 gr a starting load or just the recommended load?

thanks

[farmbif]

a wise investment might be made in the latest Lyman reloading book. you want to be concerned with bullet weight and seating depth not the brand of bullets.
also online at the imr or Hodgdon web site is the reloading data center and there is lots of cast bullet loads now that the western powders/ ramshot and accurate powders load data has been incorporated under the hodgdon umbrella.

[linko]

a wise investment might be made in the latest Lyman reloading book. you want to be concerned with bullet weight and seating depth not the brand of bullets.
also online at the imr or Hodgdon web site is the reloading data center and there is lots of cast bullet loads now that the western powders/ ramshot and accurate powders load data has been incorporated under the hodgdon umbrella.

thanks,

yes I have several Lyman manuals (cast as well) 158 gr and 165 are not listed there or on Hodgdon site.

ordered a real old lyman manual (1970) will look there.

appreciate your response

[Bazoo]

I would use Lee 309-150-F or RCBS 30-150-FN data for the SNS bullet, and Lyman 31141 for the cheycast bullet. Of course you could use the 31141 data for both since it's more commonly available.

[HamGunner]

Could easily be that you will find no exact data match for your bullets, especially since they are coated. But, certainly with cast, that is easily remedied by comparing your bullet to another similar bullet that has data. That should get you into the ball park at least. In order to get on base and work your way to home plate, just start lower and work up as any load should be done and you will find your load.

As far as measuring seating depth or OAL, what is in load data is just the seating depth that they used to work up the data. You can certainly fudge a little bit either way, according to what your chamber likes, and starting low, work up a load. Sometimes one has to work for it a bit to work up a load. The work is not always done for us.

[shaggybull]

Was only load listed with 4895

[P Flados]

There have been some reasonable responses, but the initial request could have been better.

Traditional cast bullet load data was generally assembled and loads were likely to have have been kept to lower velocities than what now seems reasonable with coated boolits. The other item of note is that the OP did not specify anything with respect to usage or powder preferences.

[linko]

I plan to use H4895 for an accurate target load.

Am currently loading in the 20 - 21 gr range

[P Flados]

The SNS does not look too much different than a bevel base version of the Lee 150. I took the Lee 150 and increased the weight to 158 gr. The Lee will seat 0.415" deep using the crimp groove, but I increased the seating depth to 0.434". If you need to seat deeper, Quickload says to back off 0.1 gr for every 0.009" deeper.



Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .309, 150, LEE C309-150-F (adjusted to 158)
Seating depth : .434 inch
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.470 inch = 62.74 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895


CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-35.7 54 18.00 1194 500 8071 2578 56.6 2.509
-32.1 58 19.00 1261 558 9073 2846 59.5 2.380
-28.6 61 20.00 1329 619 10180 3122 62.4 2.259
-25.0 64 21.00 1398 685 11405 3405 65.3 2.145
-21.4 67 22.00 1467 755 12758 3692 68.1 2.034
-17.9 70 23.00 1538 830 14251 3983 70.9 1.928
-14.3 73 24.00 1609 908 15901 4275 73.5 1.829
-10.7 76 25.00 1681 991 17721 4567 76.1 1.737
-07.1 79 26.00 1753 1078 19724 4857 78.6 1.651
-03.6 82 27.00 1825 1168 21952 5144 81.0 1.572
+00.0 85 28.00 1897 1263 24407 5424 83.3 1.497
+03.6 88 29.00 1970 1362 27123 5698 85.4 1.427
+07.1 91 30.00 2043 1464 30128 5962 87.4 1.361
+10.7 94 31.00 2116 1571 33461 6216 89.3 1.300
+14.3 97 32.00 2189 1681 37144 6457 91.0 1.242 ! Near Maximum !
+17.9 100 33.00 2261 1794 41207 6683 92.6 1.187 ! Near Maximum !

[P Flados]

The 165 looks a lot like a bevel base version of the Lee 170. I took the Lee 170 and decreased the weight to 165 gr. The lee will seat to 0.415" using the crimp groove, but I increased the seating depth to 0.434".



Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .309, 170, LEE C309-170-F (adjusted to 165)
Seating depth : .434 inch
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.588 inch = 65.74 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-35.7 55 18.00 1192 520 8367 2674 58.5 2.520
-32.1 58 19.00 1258 580 9412 2948 61.5 2.389
-28.6 61 20.00 1326 644 10568 3230 64.4 2.265
-25.0 64 21.00 1395 713 11848 3518 67.3 2.149
-21.4 67 22.00 1464 785 13261 3809 70.2 2.036
-17.9 70 23.00 1534 862 14822 4103 72.9 1.929
-14.3 73 24.00 1605 943 16543 4398 75.5 1.830
-10.7 76 25.00 1675 1029 18448 4691 78.1 1.738
-07.1 79 26.00 1747 1118 20550 4981 80.5 1.653
-03.6 82 27.00 1818 1211 22872 5266 82.9 1.573
+00.0 85 28.00 1890 1308 25439 5545 85.0 1.498
+03.6 88 29.00 1961 1409 28280 5815 87.1 1.428
+07.1 91 30.00 2033 1514 31426 6074 89.0 1.363
+10.7 94 31.00 2104 1622 34893 6322 90.8 1.301
+14.3 97 32.00 2176 1734 38712 6556 92.4 1.243 ! Near Maximum !

[P Flados]

If you are happy down around 1500 fps or less, a powder like Universal or Unique will get you there with a much lower cost per round and will allow you to save your very hard to replace H4895 for full power loads.



Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .309, 150, LEE C309-150-F (adjusted to 158)
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.570 inch = 65.28 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon Universal

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-38.5 36 8.00 1341 631 21047 1769 100.0 1.774
-30.8 40 9.00 1428 716 25183 1969 100.0 1.637
-23.1 45 10.00 1510 800 29576 2165 100.0 1.524
-15.4 49 11.00 1588 885 34225 2359 100.0 1.431
-07.7 54 12.00 1663 970 39133 2550 100.0 1.351 ! Near Maximum !

[linko]

P Flados, I Really appreciate the great detailed data you provided. I have been working in the dark.

I have plenty of H4895 powder so your data is very helpful. Didn't realize these bullets could be loaded using H4895 above 21.0 gr. I will work up some loads based on these data and give the range another trip. What program do you use for the calculations? Looks impressive.

thanks again

[firefly1957]

There is a thread here about a place that turned a lot of old Reloading books to .PDF for free download but I lost the link here is some links that you might find useful . Today you use a browser to open .PDF files as adobie is re-owned and acrobat readers often are locked from use!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14866450/all/a-collection-of-reloading-data-old-and-current

It also helps if you give us a idea what you want in a load as cast bullets in 30-30 or .35 Rem can go from cat sneeze to factory specs .


P.S. some of the links are dead but all of the IDEAL?LYMAN books downloaded . One link went to the page I was looking for and I got a 404 ERROR and the page closed .

[P Flados]

What program do you use for the calculations?

The program is Quickload. It is not cheap and can be a little tricky to understand how to use properly. It also is "just a prediction" that can be off. It is most helpful when used in conjunction with some chrono data. However, without chrono data it is still much better than "working in the dark".

The 30-30 is one of those cartridges where there is really no observable attribute that will reliably tell an average reloader that his ammo is over the SAAMI limit. Most 30-30 guns can handle pressures above the SAAMI 30-30 limit, but that is another discussion. I recommend being very cautions if you want to push your loads up close to published data for jacketed bullets of a similar weight to you cast bullets.

[Gobeyond]

You can go down but you can’t go up. Use the data for a heavier bullet on a lighter bullet. Not the other way around. Which is what these guys are saying. You could even go 170 grain data for the 165 or the 158 gr. The manuals mostly not all the times use less powder for the larger bullets. So it’s safe to go down in weight.

[linko]

Before I shoot loads that were calculated by the Quickload provided by P Flados (thanks)

The cautions question is, am I safe to try loads above the max in the loading manuals if I follow the data shown from quickload above?

The Saami max pressure is 42,000 Psi

I plan to try the range from 20.0 to 30. grains. These look to be well below saami max pressure.

Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .309, 150, LEE C309-150-F (adjusted to 158)
Seating depth : .434 inch
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.470 inch = 62.74 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-35.7 54 18.00 1194 500 8071 2578 56.6 2.509
-32.1 58 19.00 1261 558 9073 2846 59.5 2.380
-28.6 61 20.00 1329 619 10180 3122 62.4 2.259
-25.0 64 21.00 1398 685 11405 3405 65.3 2.145
-21.4 67 22.00 1467 755 12758 3692 68.1 2.034
-17.9 70 23.00 1538 830 14251 3983 70.9 1.928
-14.3 73 24.00 1609 908 15901 4275 73.5 1.829
-10.7 76 25.00 1681 991 17721 4567 76.1 1.737
-07.1 79 26.00 1753 1078 19724 4857 78.6 1.651
-03.6 82 27.00 1825 1168 21952 5144 81.0 1.572
+00.0 85 28.00 1897 1263 24407 5424 83.3 1.497
+03.6 88 29.00 1970 1362 27123 5698 85.4 1.427
+07.1 91 30.00 2043 1464 30128 5962 87.4 1.361
+10.7 94 31.00 2116 1571 33461 6216 89.3 1.300
+14.3 97 32.00 2189 1681 37144 6457 91.0 1.242 ! Near Maximum !
+17.9 100 33.00 2261 1794 41207 6683 92.6 1.187 ! Near Maximum !

[P Flados]

It is well known that some loading manuals in the past stopped well before reaching pressure limits when using cast bullets. This is obvious when the load data shows both cast and jacked data and includes pressure test results. When published data shows that they did push close to pressure limits, the max charge for cast is usually not that much different than the max charge for a similar jacketed bullet. So lets look at a load with your powder under a jacked bullet.

I found Hodgdon data showing showing 32 gr H4895 under a Sierra 150 gr for 36,700 cup. This compares to the limit in cup which was set at 38,000.

I plugged in the J word inputs for the Hodgdon load and QL predicted pressure is 37,448 psi where the limit is 42,000 psi.

To me, the above seems to be a reasonable match (even with the silly cup vs psi mess) and tends to validate is not too far off for this cartridge, powder and bullet weight. At worse, it would tend to say that QL could be non-conservative by around 3,200 psi

The highest calculated pressure in the bolded rows from post 20 is 30,128 psi for a load with 30 gr H4895.

[linko]

Thanks again. That is a very good explanation. Off to the range I go!