Flyers are Frustrating

[Castaway]

I’m working up a load for my Win 92 in 45 Colt using virgin Starline brass, a 292 grain SWC at 1:20, Win Mag pistol primers and pull down WC 820 (H 110). I loaded three different loads of 5 rounds each. Not surprisingly, as the load went up, the groups tightened to where at the last two, I measured 1 1/4” and 1 1/8” respectively. Problem is that the measure was for 4 shots only. All three loads had flyers at 12:00. The lowest charge had a 7” flyer, next highest 2 1/2” and the highest load had a 1 3/4” flyer. I was on sandbags and all shots were called as good. I know three tests don’t make good data, but since all three went to the north side of a good group hints at an ignition issue as opposed to bad bullets that would be circular in their error. I won’t post the loads and will only say they are at the limit of what Linebaugh pressure tested for Black Hawks. I’m thinking the issue rests with the crimp. Any other suggestions?

[DougGuy]

I’m thinking the issue rests with the crimp. Any other suggestions?

That would be my first thoughts.. This is how I handle heavy for caliber boolits with full charges of slow burning powder:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

This type of crimp creates a bit of resistance that gives the flame front time to propagate, the boolit won't pull crimp from the initial pressure created by lighting off the primer, ES will be cut WAY down, and groups will show the difference in this crimp compared to a roll crimp, even a heavy roll crimp.

[georgerkahn]

In reading DougGuy's post, I note that I, too, use Lee Factory Crimp dies on every calibre I reload for! Mine are as from their factory -- not in any way modified -- and I am convinced that the life of brass is increased by using this, and at the target -- groups are smaller!
geo

[Tripplebeards]

I was going to recommend a lee collet factory crimp die. My groups went from groups like yours to sub MOA with my Ruger 77/44 at 100 yards just by changing crimps. Apparently my roll crimping skills suck. Use A lee factory collet die with a heavy crimp that folds the case mouth over the lube groove like Doug dose… and I do…will tighten up your groups. They’re cheap to. $15 to $25 depending where you get them. I use the lee collet dies in all my cast loads accept for trail boss vaquero loads because I only shoot 25 yards with it.

Heres an example of the crimp…


https://i.imgur.com/KUIkqCp.jpg

[cherokeetracker]

There is several vatiables in revolver shooting. As you have touched on the crimp, as you may knoe that seating depth is important and thiat does not seem to apply here, as you get verticle stringing with different seating depths. I have seen flyers come from one shall we say, Bad chamber in the cylinder? If you mark the cylinder via masking tape or sharpie on a stainless cylinder. Then fire your weapon checking to see the flyer and note which chamber is this coming from. Is it the same one? Or is it a different one each time. If you do find one bad chamber then you can mark it or rsimply place an emty in and not load a live round in it or have a new cylinder made. Last option can be pricey. But if the flyer falls on a different chamber each time then it is time to look at cartridges. You will find this soon

[Castaway]

cherokeetracker, good advice for a revolver. To the others, I ordered a Lee Collet die last night

[Pirate69]

For me, this is a very enlightening post. The information on the flyers being at the same location really caught my attention. I recently shot two 45-70 groups that had a flyer at about 5 o'clock. Both groups look almost identical. Do you think this could also be a crimping problem. See top two groups on attached photo.

https://i.imgur.com/8UZ4eyJ.jpg

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Check to see if the flyer is the first shot, last shot, 2nd shot? Magazine spring pressure can make a difference, the magazine tube applying different pressure with each shot. When crimping - case length is important for a consistent crimp so trimming brass for uniformity may be necessary. My Starline brass has been very consistent but you might check. For consistency, I will load 3-4-5 rounds into the magazine, then load a round into the magazine after each shot, keeping pressure on the bolt and barrel uniform from shot to shot.

[Pirate69]

Check to see if the flyer is the first shot, last shot, 2nd shot? Magazine spring pressure can make a difference, the magazine tube applying different pressure with each shot. When crimping - case length is important for a consistent crimp so trimming brass for uniformity may be necessary. My Starline brass has been very consistent but you might check. For consistency, I will load 3-4-5 rounds into the magazine, then load a round into the magazine after each shot, keeping pressure on the bolt and barrel uniform from shot to shot.

I failed to state that this is an 1873 Springfield Trapdoor.

[cherokeetracker]

Pirate69 Three things. depth of seating cause verticle stringing and so check that check crimp which is inline with the seating depth,,,Making sure the brass is trimmed to the same length. and then lastly look at each shot 1st cold bore, flyer there? and last shot maybe a little leading? doubtful as most everyone here is quite the caster. But It might happen. A bore scope would be awesome to see here. If you are using cast and you find it is a leading problem then I would assume a 4-5 shot group. Three shot Hmmmm. Sometimes we can do the JB bore paste or shoot a jacketed a time or two and go back to cast. Hopefully it will tell you something. If you could find a Smith in your area that has a bore scope it would be good to check on things. You never know with the older rifles.