Reloading 7.62 x 39mm Steel Casings!

[Bigjohn]

A member of this forum posed this question a couple of months back and received various responses including 'Why bother!'.

Well, I can come up with two good reasons; Because we can and Hunting in areas where finding your cases would be impossible.

Well, I thought a small experiment would be in order here, so I collected some spent casings :Fire: and went to work.

After an inspection and cleaning the cases need to be deprimed. This was done with a hydralic decapper which is alleged to be capable of processing 140 cases per hour. Never had 140 cases to test out this claim.

Then case were then dried to prevent rust forming.

I then inspected and cleaned the primer pockets.

The case necks were then lube inside and out with drylube (Molib------disulfide??) in a #9 shot lube applicator.

Using a set of SIMPLEX 5/8" neck sizing die set I resized the necks only. For comparison, I am reloading several brass cases with the same procedure and dies. The effort required to size the steel cases is about the same as for the brass.

As I intend to seat the LEE 312-160 Boolit sized at .312"; I expanded the inside neck with a .310" RCBS Nexk expander die.

After cleaning and inspecting the cases; it was time to seat the new primers. I used the Lyman Ram Prime unit for the 'Boxer' primed cases and a 'LANTHOIS' Berdan Primer Seater button with the RCBS Primer Pocket Crimp remover set to set the new berdan primers.

To this point, there has been no failures due to splitting or other problems. I have not at this time charge the cases and seated the Boolits due to other projects which are on the go at the same time.

More later,
John

[jhrosier]

John,
The 'why bother' responses probably come from the U.S. where we are completely surrounded by no Berdan primers.

Jack

[35remington]

Same sentiment here.

If the SHTF reloading 7.62 X 39 would be last on the list of my priorities. There are better hunting cartridges and in a cornfield commando "end of civilization" battle scenario you ain't gonna be picking up your empties anyway.

In hunting, if losing a couple of brass cases once in awhile is debilitating on the ammo supply you don't have enough brass, period.

Thus my wet blanket comments.

Having done so in the past, I'd rather perform surgery on myself than deal with Berdan primed cases.

[Bigjohn]

Well, it looks like the response I expected is basically "Why bother!"

I ask myself that question many times and most times the response is "I need to know the answer."

Since, I posted the first part of this thread, I have completed the reloading process.

The loads are basically;
A mixed batch of cases, PMC, Winchester and Highland AX for the boxer primed stable; Chicom Copper washed steel & 1 lonely painted steel and Brass ex-mil cases.

Boxer primers are Winchester large rifle; Berdan Primers are RWS

Powder is 22.0 grains ADI AR2207

LEE cast .312-155gr Boolit.

I will add that the reloading process seems as easy by feel as for the brass cases.

11455

11456

I will test fire these loads and post the results, then we can let this thread slide into history.
john

[Ricochet]

Thanks, John, that's good to know!

[MT Gianni]

Before letting it slide into history, John please make sure that you measure case head expansion and any other pertinent dimensions. Some of us are curious though we have no access to Berdan primers.

[Beaverhunter2]

John,

I appreciate you pursuing this and sharing your results. Knowledge is rarely bad to have.

John

[superior]

The original post may have been mine. I didn't however use spent cases, but pulled the steel core j's out of a bunch of chicom copper-washed cases and loaded them up with lee cTL312-160's using my powder. The results were spectacular and I didn't have to worry about chasing the brass. This gave me plenty of ammo to develop my loads with. I saved my chinese j's as well as the powder. 25 grains of h4895 seated at 2.02 shot into 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards. (Not bad for a 16" bbl in an sks paratrooper) I still have about a box of them left. Since then I ordered 200 unfired IMI cases and I've loaded up 20 using 14.8 grains of 2400. I haven't shot them yet but I'll bet they are excellent. I still have about 300 rounds of milsurp including Wolf hollowpoints, Yugo brass cased, Sellier and bellot and others. I may pull more of them if I hunt in an area where brass recovery will be unlikely. My IMI cases are precious to me as they were hard to come by. They cost me $27 per 100.

[TDB9901]

Yes, let us know. Even if I never try it,..... I enjoy hearing about all aspects of our hobby.


I too try things that others may not waste their time with......... but it's fun, and that's what it's all about .........Right?

Tom

[Three44s]

Well ........ where do we get Berdan primers in the US???

Three 44s

[Westwindmike]

Can you drill out a Berdan primer pocket and use a Boxer primer?

[3rptr]

I'll be watching for John's results also... we're in the process of handloading 54R washed cases.
Using a Lee 303 British collet neck sizer die set.
No source for Berdan primers, so far.
Working on conversion to boxer primers w a brass sleeve in the pocket. NOT yet tested.

If it's not satisfactory I may look into drilling cases out for #209 primers but would need to ask for advice on that before proceeding.

....
Someone mentioned the steel case are worthless, and he's .20 close to correct.
And sure, you may not be picking brass during the battle of the cornfield commandos,
but my bet is there has not been a conflict in history where each battlefield wasn't scavenged for one reason or another.
...

All knowledge is good.

[3rptr]

Can you drill out a Berdan primer pocket and use a Boxer primer?

No.

Berdan primer is bigger diameter than large rifle primer.

..My post just crossed w yours...

I will try brass tubing from the hobby selection at hardware store.
Cut slices off it and use loctite red???

Have not tried yet.

Read elsewhere where someone mashed the expired berdan primer with a .250 steel punch, then drilled 1/16 flash hole.

(A large rifle primer floats around inside an expired Berdan cap that has been pumped out.)

Of course you must use a mandrel up inside the case for support.
Same 5/16 bolt used for hydraulic ram would work for that, but probably bend it after a while????

It would hurt me physically to drop $25 for a shiny box of Norma shells to fire a battlefield relic once used by some Russian peasant.. I'd sooner spend a month or so getting a conversion figgered.

Best
3rptr

[Bigjohn]

I will try to answer some of the questions posed here,
In some hunting situations, you don't have the time to pick up cases and from my observations and a cople of quiet tests; the steel cases tend to rust away and eventually leave nothing other than the brass primer cup. I know when I am out shooting or hunting, that I am always picking one someone elses rubbish for recycling or disposal and brass does not seem to 'rot' away.

For competition and hunting purposes (After changing bullets for Boolits), I recently bought in 2,950 rounds for my main rifle. All steel cased; so I am set for awhile.

I can not help with a source for berdan primers in the US of A or any other country except maybe Europe.

The berdan primers I used are Dynamit Nobel (RWS) 5.50mm #5627. So any source of that companies product would be a possible source. I have a good supply 'laid in' to be able to use when needed.
As many of our Armed Forces, tended to follow the European trends, our 7.62 NATO ammo was also Berdan primed and also uses this primer.

Due to restrictions on ownership and use of semi-auto weapons, these loads can only be tested in a bolt action rifle.

I have seen and used Berdan primed .45ACP cases which were converted to boxer primed, successfully for many years. They were picked up at the IPSC World Shoot in ADELAIDE S.Australia, just before Gulf War I.

John

[Bigjohn]

The original post may have been mine. I didn't however use spent cases, but pulled the steel core j's out of a bunch of chicom copper-washed cases and loaded them up with lee cTL312-160's using my powder. The results were spectacular and I didn't have to worry about chasing the brass. This gave me plenty of ammo to develop my loads with. I saved my chinese j's as well as the powder. 25 grains of h4895 seated at 2.02 shot into 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards. (Not bad for a 16" bbl in an sks paratrooper) I still have about a box of them left. Since then I ordered 200 unfired IMI cases and I've loaded up 20 using 14.8 grains of 2400. I haven't shot them yet but I'll bet they are excellent. I still have about 300 rounds of milsurp including Wolf hollowpoints, Yugo brass cased, Sellier and bellot and others. I may pull more of them if I hunt in an area where brass recovery will be unlikely. My IMI cases are precious to me as they were hard to come by. They cost me $27 per 100.

If I recollect, you are correct, superior; it was your thread the pique my interest further and rekindled a half completed experiment from some years back.
I went goat hunting in the Flinders Ranges in 1989 with two friends, one of whom was shooting an Chicom SKK rifle. The only Soft Pointed ammo available at that time was PMC and every casing was thrown a distance never to be seen again.

When I came home, I pulled the FMJ's from some Ex-mil and seated 123gr JSP's over the original loadings and sent them off to him for trial. It worked as he still carries out the same practice today using a bolt action Remington 600 Mohawk converted to 7.62 x 39mm.

John

[NuJudge]

I'm curious. Steel Berdan cases I've seen in the US. Brass Boxer and Berdan cases I've seen in the US. Are you seeing Boxer primed steel cases in Australia?

CDD

[acemedic13]

xxxxxxxxxx

[Bigjohn]

I'm curious. Steel Berdan cases I've seen in the US. Brass Boxer and Berdan cases I've seen in the US. Are you seeing Boxer primed steel cases in Australia?

CDD

Not yet but I haven't checked out the 'WOLF' brand yet. Rarely seen here in my local.
John

[Bigjohn]

Last time somebody told me "why bother" I was asking them about reloading. I rarely answer that question anymore. I have been often wondering and wanting to reload a few "steelies" myself just to see what will happen and how they will work. I am going to try and get them to work with available materials here in the U.S. Might be a pain, but its fun tweeking on a new project. Thanks for the post. Joel

I have regular discussions with a fellow shooter and friend (still) but cartridge cases for CB's which achieve a 100% load density (greatly reduced airspace); his response is 'Why bother when there are heaps of standard cases out there and just use a filler.' I am still building a .303" Pygmy for just such a rifle, CB only.

Some think I'm strange because I work with the unusual.

John

[45&30-30]

Great thread Bigjohn. Do you have pictures of this hydraulic decapper you mentioned. Never heard or seen one, I'd like to see that.:drinks:

[Harmon_Greer]

i bet a talented and bored machinist could machine a bushing to make up the difference between the two primer diameters....and then drill a flash hole.....if times got reallly tough.


harmon

[Bigjohn]

i bet a talented and bored machinist could machine a bushing to make up the difference between the two primer diameters....and then drill a flash hole.....if times got reallly tough.


harmon

The same can be done with odd calibre brass cases which are not easy to get, especially if they are berdan primed. It is a skill many of us here at this site should know about if not actually practice.

John

[Bigjohn]

Great thread Bigjohn. Do you have pictures of this hydraulic decapper you mentioned. Never heard or seen one, I'd like to see that.:drinks:

I can take pic's and post them and or copy and email the original article. The version I have is a modified version.

John.

[obssd1958]

For those that are interested, there is a 3 part article on surplusrifle.com specifically aimed at reloading berdan primed brass. Among other things, the article also tells how to make your own hydraulic decapper.
Here's a link to the first of the 3 articles:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/berdanreloading/index.asp

Hope this helps,


Don

[45&30-30]

Thanks for the offer Bigjohn but that link obssd1958 provided answers my question, unless you have something different. :roll: Then a posted picture would be great.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Within the last few months I did a very thorough search for Berdan primers anywhere in the US. No luck other than a few tight fisted squirrels. Not blaming them though.

Second, you just can not say you cannot convert berdan cases to Boxer primers. I read on the Swiss rifle forums of folks swaging surplus 7.5 cases to accept Large rifle primers in a multi step process to use the fine Swiss brass in the current absence of Berdan primers here.

Personally, long before Graf brought in 8 X 56R cases, I was converting 8 X 50 R Austrian , nazi military ammo from the thirties to use standard long rifle primers to use in my Ferlach Stutzen of the same caliber. Turned out they were central fire Berdan, and of a smaller diameter primer than the large rifle primers. Heck, I still use them. BvT

[VintageRifle]

For some of us reloading berdan is worth it while we do have a supply of primers. I lucked out and got 10,000 a few year back. Still have about 9,000 left. Will be a bit before I get those all used up.

I too have thought about reloading steel cases. Right now I just reload for Swiss GP11 and if I do not smash the necks while trying to get the military primer out, 8mm mauser and soon to be 8x56R with Nazi brass.

[Willbird]

If a man HAD to he could easily convert berdan cases to take battery cup shotgun primers, and one can buy adaptors to use small pistol or rifle primers in battery cup locations, they are called "variflame adaptors"

Using shotgun primers you would probably have to keep the pressures low.

Bill

[Bigjohn]

It has been a couple of weeks since I last visited this thread. I had been awaiting an opportunity to range test the reloads. Well, that came about this morning but did not go the way I wanted.

I had hoped to chronograph the loads to see if they were within fps parameters for case and boolit. Someone shot the screen putting it out of action for several weeks. :violin:

So, I thought I would benchrest the loads for grouping, should I say patterning.

At 90 metres I get this result,
12085
The load details were listed previously but;

Chicom 7.62 x 39mm copperwashed cases once fired.
RWS Berdan primers
22.1 grains ADI AR2207 powder
Homecast LEE 155gr 312 boolits with GC
lube sized in lyman 450 lyman lube.

These loads feel as potent as the factory ammo which I normally use in this rifle for competition purposes

At least the holes in the paper appear to be round and crisply cut; no sign of yawing.
12086

Time to make up another batch for further testing hopefully after the chrono is fixed (mine "Chrony" is also in down time due to a shot diffuser).:oops:

John

[Lloyd Smale]

i know it can be done but if it was for shtf ammo i would do it. It only takes one major case failure to tie up a gun or worse yet destroy it or hurt yourself. I fooled with reloading wolf pistol brass and it does work but occasionaly after just one firing i got badly split case and in your 762 your talking much more pressure then what pistol rounds are loaded too. I just picked up a case of wolf for a 100 bucks so if you search deals can still be found and at that price its just not worth the work and worry to me.

[45/70fan]

In response to some of the naysayers:
Why bother?
Because he can, because he wants to! Without the inquisitiveness of the human mind we'd still be living in trees and breeding once a year. That don't sound good to me. BigJohn keep us posted.
John

[superior]

Good work! I'm glad my original post led to this continued experimentation and by looking at the results, I can see success indeed! I have a box of chicom cases loaded and ready to go in the event that I need them for remote area hunting. I have complete confidence in them as they are superbly accurate. There is a guy on youtube who claims to reprime them with boxers using lok-tite to hold them in place. I dont think I have the nerve to try that. Let the experiments continue, Bigjohn.

[Three44s]

How about a sleeve to convert berdan pockets to Small Rifle Boxer????

You'd have more thickness in the sleeve and for the lighter powder charges/ faster powders ..... that are indicative of cast boolits ......... it seems you'd have enough brisance from them .......... ??

Just a random though

Three 44s

[Bigjohn]

The following is a short photo essay on the hydralic decapper I use to decapper my berdan and crimped primers.

12276
All the bits and pieces laid out for viewing.

12277
The decapper cylinder, piston and hammer as it would be used. (Outer tank deleted from view for clarity.)

12281
The Decapper cylinder and piston.

12280
The extraction tools; the wire loop is for cases; the tapered rubber is for the case alignment inserts.

12279
Case extractor in action.

12278
The collars for various case head diameters, these go inside the cylinder to align the primer with the ejection chute. A 7.62 x 39mm case is in the second one from the left.

12282
Case alignment sleeve extractor in operation.

12283
Cylinder inside water level equalisation tank. There is a small hole in the side of the cylinder near the top which allows the water level to remain stable while in operation.

Procedure is to fill tank, drop in the correct alignment sleeve, fill cases in another bucket beside the tank. Pick out a case and drop it into the cylinder, neck up, place piston and apply pressure (Belt it) with a dead weight hammer. 1lb hammer used on the 7.62 x 39mm cases; heavier hammers needed for heavy crimped cases. Once pressure has been applied successfully, one blow is normal, remove hammer and piston, extract case and drop in a fresh one. Repeat procedure until all done.

Remember; hold the pressure on when you strike the piston, if you have a hard one the hammer will rebound.

John

[kendwell]

Has anyone used the Lapua blank (plastic/wooden bullets) cases to reload 7.62 x 39?

[Bert2368]

I have heard that these blanks are assembled from cases rejected for ball loads. I've got a couple of 40 round boxes of them, can't see anything wrong on a visual inspection. I've also got around 600 rounds of Lapua FMJ, I'm going to check capacities & internal after I empty a few of each.

[n.h.schmidt]

I too would like to know more about your water type berdan capper. I have made something myself which works but,I'm always looking for other ways. I have gone off the deep end with refurbishing berdan cases and primer cups. I just this weekend flattened out used berdan primer cups with a steel punch . Here's what I have done to recharge the primer. I start by holding the case inverted. I then tap the pocket half full with a fast pistol powder. In this instance Hodgen HP38. The powder just about covers up the anvil. I then place a punched out toy cap gun cap in the primer pocket and push it down on top of the powder. The punch used is a typical cheap punch from the drugstore. The punched out toy cap is big enough to fit tight in the pocket. You can place a second cap on top of the first or place it into the primer cup. The case can now be held upright and the berdan primer inserted in the normal way of primers. I seat them flush and no deeper. The case once sized ,trimed ,ect can now be reloaded. I did this for a 8x57 mauser and used cast bullets loaded mild. 175gr lee 8mm with 21gr of 5744 giveing me a speed of 1650fps with the crono. I only loaded eight of this load. The first shot was a fast hangfire and hit low.Well I thought "what a bummer". All the other shots fired normally and gave a least average accuracy. The fired primers look almost normal.
There will be more to come on this as I get out more.
n.h.schmidt

[Echo]

On a post somewhere (maybe in a galaxy, far, far away...) I saw a thread re Berdans. His solution to the size issue was to put a ball bearing (1/2", maybe) on top of the primer cavity while supporting the case from the inside, and give the bearing a whack. Swages down the lip of the cavity enough to hold the primer. Said it worked with no drama. Certainly less hassle than using tubing to bush the cavity.

[n.h.schmidt]

I wish to thank Bigjohn for the pics of his decapper. Did you buy it or make it? How does the brass piston seal ? Your setup has some advantages over most other berdan decapping water types . It looks like the pressure is equalized on both sides of the case. It depends on the sudden rush to pop the primer. Dave Chushman has something like it described online.
n.h.schmidt

[Bigjohn]

I wish to thank Bigjohn for the pics of his decapper. Did you buy it or make it? How does the brass piston seal ? Your setup has some advantages over most other berdan decapping water types . It looks like the pressure is equalized on both sides of the case. It depends on the sudden rush to pop the primer. Dave Chushman has something like it described online.
n.h.schmidt

Basically, this system was built by a close friend of mine and there are only three of them in 'captivity'. The design is based on an article in an early Gun Digest book with some modifications. There is no copyright on the system.

You are correct, the water pressure is equal all around the case and the system relies on the sudden increase in water pressure caused by the hammer blow.

The brass piston is a close fit and if you just sit it on top of the water column, it will slowly slip down. You need to work up a cadence and hit the piston with the hammer as soon as possible after it is placed there. The weight of hammer can be adjusted depending on the strength of the crimp.

John

[Nora]

I played around with using brass (not steel) surplus 7.62x54R as a primed brass donor as being expendable in the field for the hunt. In doing so I pulled the boolit and dumped the powder. My experiment was to compare it with other primers and see how it performed. At the time I used a Speer 180 gr RN and IMR 4320 with Winchester brass. I fired 5 ten shot groups. One with the mil surp primed brass, and one group each primed with WLR, WLRM, Rem 9 1/2, and Rem 9 1/2M. With all else identical, I crono'd them all. The end result showed that the mil surp had identical performance to the WLR. So for disposable rounds for hunting that's what I've done, pull and dump, then load as Win primed.

*the head stamp was 3 (Ulyanovsk Machinery Plant State Production Association, Russia) 87(1987)*

I realize this doesn't add any to reloading a berdan primed case, but just wanted to share another angle for disposable field brass.


Nora

[matm0702]

HI Folks

I don't reload berdan but I do replace the FMJ bullets with Hornady 123 grain softpoints in wolf steel cases so I don't destroy/lose my brass cases in my MAK90. I use my brass in my Yugo SKS where I can shut off the gas valve. I have a good bit of steel cased 7.62x39 so I'm in no hurry to use up my brass cases.

Mike

[conundrum374]

Ive been working on this myself after buying a case of yugo surplus brass cased ammo,
I found an article about converting to box primers, using the outer wall of the old primer as your size adapter. cant find the link

this guy decapped the berdan and swaged the primer pocket.
http://users.ameritech.net/mchandler/primer.html

and I found this one about reusing the primer caps, and filling them with 2 ground up strike anywhere match heads.

have not had any luck yet, as my attempt to decap the cases have only succeeded in mangling the cases, luckily I was trying the technique on steal cases.