200gr cast in 357 Max/350 legend

[Elpatoloco]

Can someone point me in the direction of some printed data for a 200 gr cast in 357 MAX?

I am loading a 203 grain slug in the Legend and wanting to use the Maxi data as a starting point.

All my load data is written on the boxes of handloads, for stuff I currently load for and have settled on.

The 350 is new to me. I lost the majority of my manauls between a divorce and 2 moves. I currently have Lyman's 49th, and a couple of different Lyman cast handbooks. None list data for the 357 Max.

I also have a Lee. It does not list IMR-4227 which is the most appropriate powder that I can get my hands on for the application. I do not want to play with Win 296 with the increased air space between the cases. The Lee lists H 4227 for a 200 gr jacketed slug. No idea if IMR and Hogdon 4227 is the same. Ive never crossed the data for them.

I will Purchase the manual if anyone can point me to it.

Or Shooter's World Blackout Flavor powder. They have data for the 350 in this weight slug on their website.

I suppose the ex-wife needed the literature worse than I did.

Thanks,
Colby

[lar45]

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center has data for a 180 with 4227 powder.
You might be able to drop down a couple of grains and work up. Your seating depth might make a bigger difference than the 20gn of bullet weight.
Also use the search function for the 357 AR Max Rimless , there might be data there for a 200gn cast.

[hc18flyer]

Check out: https:www.reloadammo.com/357max.htm
M.D. Smith's Reloading Pages
hc18flyer

[hc18flyer]

My link didn't work. Google MD Smith's Reloading Pages and you will find it.

[P Flados]

I worked up 357 AR Max loads with 200 gr bullets in a 16" AR. The performance of this round is near identical to the 350L.

There is very little published 200 gr data out there. Just for discussion, I did find the Shooter World data for Heavy Pistol and Black Out at: https://shootersworldpowder.com/reload-data/

I noted that the SW test folks stopped well short of the SAAMI max for the round. The Blackout is "good stuff" and well suited for the 350L, but it is a shame that the test data stopped at 29,000 psi. The HP is on the fast side for a heavy bullet.

For you 4227, Quickload says you will hit max pressure using a 200 cast with just a smidgen of powder compression (102% for IMR). I am giving you the load info in this fashion as there are a lot of variabilities for case capacity, bullet lengths and seating depth. Regardless of seating depth, loading to no more than 100% fill is probably smart for an AR. If you are shooting an Encore or other stout break open, you might go for more.

I tried a number of powders and ended up liking Wc 680 (milsurp version of 1680) best.

[NSB]

https://www.shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/357-maximum/#

[Photog]

looking at QL, with a .358 barnes TSX ( I can't find a 200gr lead bullet in QL) at 100% case fill of IMR 4227, you only get 76% burn rate in a 16" barrel. This tell me that 4227 is too slow of a powder. At the above, you get 26kpsi and 1238 fps. again telling me that the powder is too slow. A full case of 296 is 37k psi and over pressure (maybe), and 90% case fill is 27k psi and only 82% burned. the 296 is real peaky in this application, so i would advise against it. 2400 is too fast for a full case.
Running through the powders in QL, the ones that look good at a full case (not going over pressure on a full case and burning better than 90%)
Lilgun and trailboss. I bet 300mp would be right on for best velocity, but will need a bit less than a full case.

This is one of those cartridges in between rifle and pistol and the range of powders is slim.

[stubshaft]

I loaded a number of 200 gr. bullets in my Sillywett shooting days for my 357 Maxi. Here is some of the data from "The Complete Reloading Manual for the T/C Contender".

https://i.imgur.com/DgOV5qnl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Mer3jbzl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MspsplKl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sXj3OApl.jpg

[Elpatoloco]

looking at QL, with a .358 barnes TSX ( I can't find a 200gr lead bullet in QL) at 100% case fill of IMR 4227, you only get 76% burn rate in a 16" barrel. This tell me that 4227 is too slow of a powder. At the above, you get 26kpsi and 1238 fps. again telling me that the powder is too slow. A full case of 296 is 37k psi and over pressure (maybe), and 90% case fill is 27k psi and only 82% burned. the 296 is real peaky in this application, so i would advise against it. 2400 is too fast for a full case.
Running through the powders in QL, the ones that look good at a full case (not going over pressure on a full case and burning better than 90%)
Lilgun and trailboss. I bet 300mp would be right on for best velocity, but will need a bit less than a full case.

This is one of those cartridges in between rifle and pistol and the range of powders is slim.


Thats pretty disconcerning about the 4227. Ive read how much folks like it in the Max as well as the mag. If it doesnt give satisfactory results, I'll burn it in the mag.

I believe I have enough info to make a start at it.

I have all the 296 I could ever use. I am very skeptical about pulling a load out of the air for it.

Unfortunately the 1680 is no where to be found online or within a 200 mile radius of me as I hit every store I passed with work today.

I do have a bit of 2400 as well.

With all that said, I am not trying to push top end with this round. I believe that is a fools errand and I have more suitable rounds for more thump.
Thank you Gents!

[gumbo333]

Handloader magazine, Dec, 2023, #347 has article on reloading the 350 legend, AR15. I haven’t read the article but unfortunately see data for only jacketed bullets, 125gr, 147 gr, 150 gr, 165 gr & 170 gr. Writer maybe doesn’t know cast exists.

[P Flados]

looking at QL, with a .358 barnes TSX ( I can't find a 200gr lead bullet in QL) at 100% case fill of IMR 4227, you only get 76% burn rate in a 16" barrel. This tell me that 4227 is too slow of a powder. At the above, you get 26kpsi and 1238 fps. again telling me that the powder is too slow. A full case of 296 is 37k psi and over pressure (maybe), and 90% case fill is 27k psi and only 82% burned. the 296 is real peaky in this application, so i would advise against it. 2400 is too fast for a full case.
Running through the powders in QL, the ones that look good at a full case (not going over pressure on a full case and burning better than 90%)
Lilgun and trailboss. I bet 300mp would be right on for best velocity, but will need a bit less than a full case.

This is one of those cartridges in between rifle and pistol and the range of powders is slim.

The RCBS 200 is listed as ".358, 208, RCBS FN GC 35-200-FN". This bullet is listed as 0.900" long. It is a lot like the Lee 200, but my Lee is only 0.83" as cast, or say 0.84" with check. Seating the Lee to the crimp groove gives a 0.35" seating depth. The TSX is a 1.178" long solid copper, so not a good alternate.

My QL evaluation with the Lee 200 showed H110/296/LilGun as best, and then H4227s as next best. IMR 4227, 1680 and several others just below the second group.

For my Lee with a 0.348" seating depth, QL says 23.6 gr of IMR 4227 gives 100% fill, 1900 fps and 44,500 psi.

[mehavey]

I am loading a 203 grain slug in the Legend
Strongly recommend staying away from H110/W296 & Lil`Gun in an AR Legend
(timing/extraction/pressure "quirks")

Norma 200 is absolute cat's meow powder for the 200gr+ Legend (tho' now unobtanium)
But RL7 very very close #2)
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6843487&postcount=4

[Elpatoloco]

Strongly recommend staying away from H110/W296 & Lil`Gun in an AR Legend
(timing/extraction/pressure "quirks")

Norma 200 is absolute cat's meow powder for the 200gr+ Legend (tho' now unobtanium)
But RL7 very very close #2)
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6843487&postcount=4


Yes Sir, I've seen your posts on other sites.
I believe a lot of factory ammo is too hot as well.
Yesterday afternoon I was at my shop digging around in hopes to find some old manuals. I found a box full of ammo that I had purchased when I got the guns.
I have 7 or 8 boxes of Federal Power points. I bought piles of ammo for the 350 when I got the guns. It was dirt cheap. Anyhow.....I sighted the AR in with the night vision and shot several hogs. Then I noticed all the fired cases were split. About 6 months later, I grabbed up the ammo and went to hunt. None of the rounds would chamber. 85% of them split at the case mouth....right out of the box. I got in touch with federal and gave them the lot #. They told me no known issues and to send them the ammo back. Issued a RGA number and ups shipping label. Ups refused to pick up the package and the only Hub that will accept it is 75 miles away and only receieves packaged between 4 and 6 pm. I never got around within those hours.
I guess I can pull all those slugs, measure them and use or resize them.

[quilbilly]

I have that mold and used it in my 357 Max T/C carbine. It shot quite well accuracy wise but decided to keep the MV down because of the light weight of the carbine which has a very unpleasant vibration (not recoil) at an MV 's over 1700 fps. Using 2400 powder, I loaded it to about 15 gr. of 2400 for an MV of about 1580, adequate for my purposes and more fun to shoot regularly. I don't know if that will work in an AR platform but I suspect it will. The reason the MV of that boolit is higher than you might expect is because Alox lube makes the CB more slippery than jacketed in most cases.

[Elpatoloco]

Well, I lied to you fellas. I only have 6 boxes of Junk Federal ammo. Every single one of them split at the mouth while still in the box. A year after I purchsed them.

The bullets mic at .356.

I may run them through a .355 sizer. Pull the powder. Weigh several and get an average. Pull about a grain off each and load them into good brass.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231201/eab1529edf169b9b3d5fccbafe91bda0.jpg

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[Photog]

all right, I found the rcbs boolit in QL. at 203gr and gas checked.
MY go to powders for this are Alliant 2400 (starting load at 12gr) for 1400fps. Thats where is would start, its not a full case, but don't think it makes any difference.
Or Power pistol at 8.0 gr for 1300fps. I found Power pistol will cycle a M1 carbine with 7 gr, so yes there is enough gas (if you have a pistol length tube).
I still don't like the looks of W296. at 17 grains you get 92% burn (which is fine) and 1600fps and 30k psi (which 296 needs to burn). but 1 grain more an you go up to near 35k psi, then 19gr gives you 41.6kpsi (over pressure). thats not a lot of room for error, and QL is NOT perfect, and powders vary a lot.
And then there is recoil of 200gr at those velocities from an AR - ugh!
I got 8 lbs of 296 and still have a hard time finding things to load with it. Its prety much a .30 Carbine only thing for me, but I'm looking at it for reduced 762x39 cast loads, and maybe 30-30 reduced loads, but I still by into the internet lore of the SEE problem.
My .02 is 2400, #9, A4100, 300mp would get best velocities, and Power pistol (or others in that speed)(if it cycles) would be best economy.

[P Flados]

all right, I found the rcbs boolit in QL. at 203gr and gas checked.
MY go to powders for this are Alliant 2400 (starting load at 12gr) for 1400fps. Thats where is would start, its not a full case, but don't think it makes any difference.
Or Power pistol at 8.0 gr for 1300fps. I found Power pistol will cycle a M1 carbine with 7 gr, so yes there is enough gas (if you have a pistol length tube).
I still don't like the looks of W296. at 17 grains you get 92% burn (which is fine) and 1600fps and 30k psi (which 296 needs to burn). but 1 grain more an you go up to near 35k psi, then 19gr gives you 41.6kpsi (over pressure). thats not a lot of room for error, and QL is NOT perfect, and powders vary a lot.
And then there is recoil of 200gr at those velocities from an AR - ugh!
I got 8 lbs of 296 and still have a hard time finding things to load with it. Its prety much a .30 Carbine only thing for me, but I'm looking at it for reduced 762x39 cast loads, and maybe 30-30 reduced loads, but I still by into the internet lore of the SEE problem.
My .02 is 2400, #9, A4100, 300mp would get best velocities, and Power pistol (or others in that speed)(if it cycles) would be best economy.

The 350L has a SAAMI limit of 55,000 psi. Yes QL is "not perfect" but folks seem to be able to work up loads in an AR for even wildcats without damaging the guns. If you have a chrono, and you are getting velocities that make sense, this really helps add confidence.

[Elpatoloco]

The 350L has a SAAMI limit of 55,000 psi. Yes QL is "not perfect" but folks seem to be able to work up loads in an AR for even wildcats without damaging the guns. If you have a chrono, and you are getting velocities that make sense, this really helps add confidence.


I have handloaded for 35 years and somehow never acquired a Chrono. I remedied that today.

[P Flados]

Congrats on the new tool.

For what is worth, I pushed 200 grn bullets from my 16" 357 Max AR to just over 2000 fps before dropping back down just a tad. This was with a couple of different powders.

[Elpatoloco]

Congrats on the new tool.

For what is worth, I pushed 200 grn bullets from my 16" 357 Max AR to just over 2000 fps before dropping back down just a tad. This was with a couple of different powders.

1600fps and I will be simply thrilled if it will cycle. Thats just an arbitrary number I am hoping for. Id just like the slug to upset some. Should whistle right through

[mehavey]

RL-7/start compressed/LEE 358-200(#2)RNFP-GC/2.164"
2,000++ fps/47,000psi

See https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?445117-Eastwood-Chrome&p=5440233&viewfull=1#post5440233
Though be it an XPR. that same load in 16" hits close to same 2,000fps

[lar45]

Yes Sir, I've seen your posts on other sites.
I believe a lot of factory ammo is too hot as well.
Yesterday afternoon I was at my shop digging around in hopes to find some old manuals. I found a box full of ammo that I had purchased when I got the guns.
I have 7 or 8 boxes of Federal Power points. I bought piles of ammo for the 350 when I got the guns. It was dirt cheap. Anyhow.....I sighted the AR in with the night vision and shot several hogs. Then I noticed all the fired cases were split. About 6 months later, I grabbed up the ammo and went to hunt. None of the rounds would chamber. 85% of them split at the case mouth....right out of the box. I got in touch with federal and gave them the lot #. They told me no known issues and to send them the ammo back. Issued a RGA number and ups shipping label. Ups refused to pick up the package and the only Hub that will accept it is 75 miles away and only receieves packaged between 4 and 6 pm. I never got around within those hours.
I guess I can pull all those slugs, measure them and use or resize them.

For your oversized 350 Legend rounds, you could try running them partway into the sizing die with the decapping pin removed. Just put it in a little bit at a time until they pass the plunk test.

[Elpatoloco]

For your oversized 350 Legend rounds, you could try running them partway into the sizing die with the decapping pin removed. Just put it in a little bit at a time until they pass the plunk test.If you are talking about all those store bought Federals, they are all split at the case mouth.

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[Elpatoloco]

I did just pick up a pound of Accurate 1680 to play with as well. Looks like it is used a bit in the Max. I live in a powder desert

[P Flados]

The 1680 may not be the fastest, but no one gripes about weird behavior. Full power loads will be very close to 100% fill.

[mainiac]

Ive shot my 350 alot with rcbs h-4198 will do 2000fps1680 will do 2100fps.4227 will be high pressure before ever getting to 2000.2400 wont shoot over 1700,without case damage.

[P Flados]

FYI, the OP requested info about percent fill in a PM. My response to him might be of interest to others.

For a flat base bullet, you can find 100% fill by determining bullet "seating depth" (case length + bullet length - COAL) and then determine how much powder it takes to fill a case until the powder surface is "seating depth" below the case mouth. A flat face wooden dowel just smaller than you bullet diameter (or anything similar) can be handy for trying to measure the distance from the mouth to the surface of the powder.

That charge is 100% fill for that combination of seating depth, case and powder. If you want 90% fill, it is the charge that is 0.9 times the 100% fill charge.

Doing stuff like the above is all about accounting for actual case capacities (which varies from brand to brand or even batch to batch) and actual powder density (which can also vary).

If I am working with someone, there is any easy "trick" I can use to account for the above two variables. I can have them measure how much powder to 100% fill an empty ready to load case. I can then set Quickload for zero seating depth and adjust case volume to match the amount of powder they measured.

I know of no way to easily and accurately determine 100% fill for boat tail or hollow base. I tend to take the Quickload percent fill at face value for these, but do not know how accurate the software is in dealing with the shape of the bullet base.

For bevel base, I tend to treat it as flat base and maybe just fudge the measurements a little to account for the free space up around the bevel.

[Elpatoloco]

FYI, the OP requested info about percent fill in a PM. My response to him might be of interest to others.

For a flat base bullet, you can find 100% fill by determining bullet "seating depth" (case length + bullet length - COAL) and then determine how much powder it takes to fill a case until the powder surface is "seating depth" below the case mouth. A flat face wooden dowel just smaller than you bullet diameter (or anything similar) can be handy for trying to measure the distance from the mouth to the surface of the powder.

That charge is 100% fill for that combination of seating depth, case and powder. If you want 90% fill, it is the charge that is 0.9 times the 100% fill charge.

Doing stuff like the above is all about accounting for actual case capacities (which varies from brand to brand or even batch to batch) and actual powder density (which can also vary).

If I am working with someone, there is any easy "trick" I can use to account for the above two variables. I can have them measure how much powder to 100% fill an empty ready to load case. I can then set Quickload for zero seating depth and adjust case volume to match the amount of powder they measured.

I know of no way to easily and accurately determine 100% fill for boat tail or hollow base. I tend to take the Quickload percent fill at face value for these, but do not know how accurate the software is in dealing with the shape of the bullet base.

For bevel base, I tend to treat it as flat base and maybe just fudge the measurements a little to account for the free space up around the bevel.

I appreciate the Detailed info and understand. I value the input from many here who have more experience than myself. Although, I dont always agree with everything on this site, I enjoy getting to see things from other viewpoints and those that take the time to explain things that I dont fully understand.
Colby

[gnoahhh]

For what it's worth, I load 19 grains 1680 and the RCBS 200 RFN GC cast out of 1:15 alloy, shot as-cast at .360", Javelina 50/50 lube. CCI SR primers. Velocity is 1900 fps. Gun: Martini Cadet, 26" barrel (hence the great velocity). Excellent accuracy, no signs of over-pressure (sticky extraction, primer flattening, etc.), no leading. It's the load I use when hunting with this rifle.

Second favorite is the same bullet and 15.0 grains Li'l Gun, CCI SR primer, same bullet as above (but 1:20 alloy). Very accurate and 1700 fps. It's the load I shoot the most in this rifle.

[Elpatoloco]

For what it's worth, I load 19 grains 1680 and the RCBS 200 RFN GC cast out of 1:15 alloy, shot as-cast at .360", Javelina 50/50 lube. CCI SR primers. Velocity is 1900 fps. Gun: Martini Cadet, 26" barrel (hence the great velocity). Excellent accuracy, no signs of over-pressure (sticky extraction, primer flattening, etc.), no leading. It's the load I use when hunting with this rifle.

Second favorite is the same bullet and 15.0 grains Li'l Gun, CCI SR primer, same bullet as above (but 1:20 alloy). Very accurate and 1700 fps. It's the load I shoot the most in this rifle.

Are you loading that in a 350 L or 357 Max?

Just cauggt a break in Duck hunting action. Going to try that load this afternoon If I can get some put together

[20:1]

Lyman 358627 data should work for lead. It's a bit heavier at 215 gr but Lyman data will be pressure tested.

[Elpatoloco]

I am loading for the 350 Legend. Not a 357 Maxi.


I ran my first ladder of loads across the new chrono today. I seated the slug to 2.165. Used a ladder of 21 up to 23 gr of 1680. All loads showed Zero pressure signs in my gun.....and functioned flawlessly.

Velocities were 1607 on up to 1790. Greatest accuracy was at 22 gr.

These loads may not be safe in anyones gun. They run fine in mine and smack steel plenty good out to 150 yards. Should do fine on feral swine.

No idea what the percentage of case fill is. Runs like a top.

I will use these on 50 to 75 yard shots on feral swine with night vision. Cannot wait to get some more loaded up and try them out on some pork.

Anyone have QL that can approximate pressures that I am running? Case fill amount?

Im gonna stick with 22 gr and let er rip....if no one post any insane pressure numbers that I may have crossed.

[Elpatoloco]

Bore came mirror clean with 1 patch of solvent, 1 pass with a brush, and 1 dry patch. Stoked!

[20:1]

I am loading for the 350 Legend. Not a 357 Maxi.


My apologies, I thought I was responding to the first sentence in your opening post: "Can someone point me in the direction of some printed data for a 200 gr cast in 357 MAX?"

My mistake.

[Elpatoloco]

My apologies, I thought I was responding to the first sentence in your opening post: "Can someone point me in the direction of some printed data for a 200 gr cast in 357 MAX?"

My mistake.

No Sir, You had it correct. There is virtually ZERO data for the 350 Legend and cast bullets. Most guys use 357 Maximum data for their starting loads. You gave EXACTLY what I was asking for. Much Data for the Maximum calls for between 21 to 23.2 gr of the powder for the Maxi. I just duplicated it and have no need to "push" the envelope with this round. With the speeds that I am getting, I know it will do what I ask of it.

I'd now just like a little reassurance from those that load the Legend, that I didnt push it too far. I believe I am well below the limits by 15k psi, but unsure as it is speced at 55k

[P Flados]

Quickload (QL) is not known to be great for raw pressure or velocity predictions when it comes to straight wall cartridges.

I like trying to match pressures to velocities rather than charges to pressure given "batch variation" concerns with powders.

It helps when you have plenty of published load data with resultant pressures to "benchmark" the software. Not the case for 350L.

The only published load data with pressures that I found was Hodgdon data. The only tested bullet also in QL was the 170 Hornady bullet, but they did not test 1680 with this bullet. I tried matching up QL with the published data. First I had to adjust case volume to 39 gr of water to get CFE BLK and 4227 to show uncompressed with starting loads and compressed with the max charges as shown. Then I adjusted charges to get the published pressures. In this configuration, QL reported velocities around 20 to 30 fps above published results (not a bad match) for 4227 and H110.

Assuming you have a 16" barrel and that your bullet matches the RCBS 35-200 length (0.900"), I found that when I plugged in 1820 fps (your 1790 fps plus a 30 fps offset), I get a pressure of 36,600 psi using AA1680.

The above approach however does not match that well against the Hodgdon load data for 27.2 gr AA1680 and a 180 gr Win bullet. With my best guess stuff plugged in, QL matches velocity pretty good but predicts 44,800 psi where the test data shows 31,000 psi. This is one of those cases where the difference is much more than "typical" or easily explained. The good news is that if this test data was "real", 1680 gives expected velocities, but at lower than typical pressures. If I use this data as a basis, your 200 gr bullet would tend to push pressure up a little (say 2000 psi) but with your max test charge of 22 gr, I would expect your load to have a pressure a good bit less than the Hodgdon load, say 24,000 to 27,000 psi as a swag.

[Elpatoloco]

Quickload (QL) is not known to be great for raw pressure or velocity predictions when it comes to straight wall cartridges.

I like trying to match pressures to velocities rather than charges to pressure given "batch variation" concerns with powders.

It helps when you have plenty of published load data with resultant pressures to "benchmark" the software. Not the case for 350L.

The only published load data with pressures that I found was Hodgdon data. The only tested bullet also in QL was the 170 Hornady bullet, but they did not test 1680 with this bullet. I tried matching up QL with the published data. First I had to adjust case volume to 39 gr of water to get CFE BLK and 4227 to show uncompressed with starting loads and compressed with the max charges as shown. Then I adjusted charges to get the published pressures. In this configuration, QL reported velocities around 20 to 30 fps above published results (not a bad match) for 4227 and H110.

Assuming you have a 16" barrel and that your bullet matches the RCBS 35-200 length (0.900"), I found that when I plugged in 1820 fps (your 1790 fps plus a 30 fps offset), I get a pressure of 36,600 psi using AA1680.

The above approach however does not match that well against the Hodgdon load data for 27.2 gr AA1680 and a 180 gr Win bullet. With my best guess stuff plugged in, QL matches velocity pretty good but predicts 44,800 psi where the test data shows 31,000 psi. This is one of those cases where the difference is much more than "typical" or easily explained. The good news is that if this test data was "real", 1680 gives expected velocities, but at lower than typical pressures. If I use this data as a basis, your 200 gr bullet would tend to push pressure up a little (say 2000 psi) but with your max test charge of 22 gr, I would expect your load to have a pressure a good bit less than the Hodgdon load, say 24,000 to 27,000 psi as a swag.

Thank You again Sir.

[Elpatoloco]

Just thought I'd put this here as well. I gave a buddy of mine a box of 50 of the loads I came up with. That MP slug is a winner. His son took this buck with it yesterday afternoon. Thanks for all the help fellas!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231227/0d654be44347f40c82cc3714b541b79a.jpg

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