15 BHN vs 22 BHN

[TexasAg11]

I know this topic is a dead horse that has been thoroughly beaten but I do have some questions that I could not find answers to.

I am strictly interested in the hunting performance on game aspect, I understand that leading is a whole separate discussion and I don't want to get into that here.

Question #1: Assuming a large bore caliber like .452 with bullets that have LARGE meplats (80%-95%), is it advantageous or disadvantageous to have the bullet deform on deer/hog size game?

Question #2: Will there be any significant deformation on deer/hog sized animals if a 15 BNH bullet such as those described above is fired at ~1300 fps on close range (<20 yards) shots?

thanks!
Mat

[smkummer]

It’s been over 27 years since I lived in TX but hunted deer and hogs outside SanAntonio. Never a 45 caliber but 44 magnum/44 special. The deer were not as big as ND or IN/KY area. Maybe in your area, they might get bigger. Anyway from my limited experience, it doesn’t matter one bit. A 44 or 45 doesn’t need to expand but holy smokes, these bullets just blow holes in the game you described. If you get a good shot, you’re really more concerned about wreaking good meat. You go for head shots or neck so as not to ruin meat. My suggestion is know where your gun prints and what alloy is accurate at certain ranges and go from there. Just my .02.

[Elpatoloco]

I would go as soft as you can stand and hit bone. I did the hard as hell thing for a long time. You hit bone and it doesn’t matter.

[atfsux]

Without trying to be snarky or avoiding the question,...the real answer is that if you put the bullet where it needs to go, none of that matters. Therefore, of far more importance is how accurate is the ammo in question, and the weapon, and the shooter.

I would not stress over this. Use whichever alloy hardness produces best accuracy results and fuggedaboudit.

[35 Rem]

It's always better to get expansion until you start hunting game so large that expansion limits penetration too much and that pretty much means only the largest species in Africa or our very largest bears. For a 45 caliber bullet hunting deer and wild pigs at those velocities I'd go as soft as I could. The popular 50/50 mix of Clip on Wheel Weights/Pure lead plus 1 or 2% Tin is perfect in my experience. I've killed 9 deer so far using that alloy. Now having said all that, a 45-caliber bullet with large meplate is going to take a pretty good blow on the nose to deform much and it's questionable whether or not 1,300 ft/sec can do that.

[Winger Ed.]

That close, and on a Texas white tail..... all that matters is accuracy and shot placement.
There are lots of folks out there hoping their boolits will expand to what a .45 does on entry.

Don't worry about over thinking this, splitting hairs over meplats,
or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Not to be rude, or harsh, but but for what you want a .45cal. boolit to do---it's a fool's errand.

[TexasAg11]

Appreciate the opinions and feedback. This forum is a great resource.

[Winger Ed.]

Appreciate the opinions and feedback. This forum is a great resource.

Good luck on your hunt.

Thanks for your questions and concerns. Folks here are glad to help.
It gives us something to do, and helps keeps us out of those crooked BINGO parlors.

You'll see guys here worry themselves sick splitting hairs over different meplats.
I usually point them to look at the ammo for the dangerous game rifles used in Africa--- the Nitro Express & Rigbys-
They are made and time proven for doing some serious killing..... And they are pretty much all shooting Round Nose.

[Tripplebeards]

Both choices are to hard imo. I use 40/1 pure and pewter alloy with a harness of 7.5 BH in my 44 mag Rifle using a HP boolit between 1600 and 1750 fps. I used a 15 bh alloy at 1750 fps on three deer and the HP cavity never expanded. Looked like I shot the deer with a FMJ… accept for the one I hit heavy upper back bone with. The bone shattered and acted like a fragmenting bullet. I was enough to drop the deer but it still kicked around for 2 min before giving up its ghost. Hundred yard plus before the other two dropped with no blood to follow even with exits. Both broadside heart and lung shots. If you want a hunting alloy use the softest your gun or pistol shoot accurately. There’s gonna be zero hydrostatic shock because of how slow you’re shooting. I would suggest to use some soft alloy so you get some type of expansion and energy transfer for a quicker kill and bigger exit hole for a blood trail. Slow 1300 fps speeds I’d rather shoot animals with a hornady XTP and save cast for plinking and practice. If your using that hard of alloy I’d tell you to at lest aim directly at the should bone to brake it down. If not it’s going to sail right though with very little energy transfer. The two deer that ran both stood there like they weren’t even shot. A second later both ran off. They acted like I shot them with an arrow with a field point. That’s also what it looked like inside them when I field dressed both. No a fan of “HARD” non expanding cast for hunting. I’m a hollow point cast shooter for hunting because I want to drop animals where they stand or close to it. The load in my avatar is from a 200 grain HP. It drops deer like Thors hammer. Imo it’s the faster 2100fps that gets it done vs the 44mag at 400 fps slower speeds. Don’t get me wrong your boolits will kill just fine but not as quickly as a faster, softer, and energy dumping hollow point will.

Question #1. You want expansion so there is energy transfer. Question #2. No expansion in a thin skinned deer. To hard of an alloy. Maybe an elephant or rhinoceros you might get expansion if you hit hard bone.lol

[Cast10]

I’m shooting a .375 caliber, 38-55 at 1577fps using 11.2 BHN. Recovered bullets in soft dirt show nice expansion and a good amount of heel left. This past weekend was the first hog kill. 60 yards broadside in the upper shoulder/neck area. Bullet did not go through, but he fell where he was. What a “WHAP” when it hit! He was wet and nasty, and I didn’t feel like a necropsy; He was dead.

[dtknowles]

I agree with the "both alloys are too hard comment." No need or benefit to that hard at those velocities, limits expansion and wastes tin and antimony. Even a softer bullet is not going to expand much at those velocities unless it is almost dead soft.

You did not say what bullet weight, not sure it matters but heavier bullet will get you more penetration even if it expands.
Tim

[Tripplebeards]

Here is my first go with deer using 15.4 BH hardness at 1750 fps on close range deer with no expansion. The third one I hit heavy bone and the bone fragments acted like a rapidly expanding bullet.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!



Imo you would have to aim for shoulders to get bones to fragment for quick kill like I’ve found out using to hard of an alloy… and that was using a HP to boot! To be fair I still have to shoot a deer with the softer 7.5 BH 40/1 alloy HP driven at 1600 fps and see how more effective the softer alloy is. Antlerless only season is next week so if I see brown it’s down. I’ll report back with pics if I down one with the soft alloy. Just not a fan of slow pistol calibers for deer when there are better options to drop them quicker in my arsenal. Don’t get me wrong. I like the challenge of making my own boolits and harvesting game with them but after less than stellar performance with the slower rifles with pistol caliber cast boolits I quickly learned that running cast HPs out of my 35 rem at 2100 fps will drop deer like Thors hammers vs a slow and heavy non expanding pistol caliber that I get 100 yard plus tracking jobs with little no blood to follow with the same heart and lung archery shot placement. I took my vaquero out on trap line with 255 grain lee’s. A shot between the eyes with a 22lr is way more knock down killing power than the same shot placement using trail boss loads and the 255 grain .452 lee on raccoons I quickly found out. Same with my muzzle loader and 300 grain TC shockwave bullets that are around 1950 fps. They sail right through deer. Most run 60 yards or more on average after being shot. Imo it’s a combination of soft alloy and velocities 2100 or over that will consistently anchor animals more times than not. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen deer go over a 100 yards with magnum rifle shots. Like I said 2k worth the velocity and soft alloys. I like 10.5 bh at 2100 fps in a HP.


If the OP needs hard alloy .452’s. I have piles of GC and PC lee 300 grain FN’s color coated in 1 grain increments I’d love to sell or trade for? I used them in my 450 BM American till I got rid of the gun. They are round 16/22bh if I remember? Very accurate. I was a hair over MOA at 100 yards with them.

[ACC]

I know this topic is a dead horse that has been thoroughly beaten but I do have some questions that I could not find answers to.

I am strictly interested in the hunting performance on game aspect, I understand that leading is a whole separate discussion and I don't want to get into that here.

Question #1: Assuming a large bore caliber like .452 with bullets that have LARGE meplats (80%-95%), is it advantageous or disadvantageous to have the bullet deform on deer/hog size game?

Question #2: Will there be any significant deformation on deer/hog sized animals if a 15 BNH bullet such as those described above is fired at ~1300 fps on close range (<20 yards) shots?

thanks!
Mat


I hunt feral Dogs and Hogs out in Poth Texas and all my bullets are 13 to 15 BHN and they deform but still get the job done. I don't hunt deer out there but my boolits should work on them as well.

ACC

[Digital Dan]

My suggestion would be to go with the softer alloy. In general I use nothing harder than 12 BHN for most CF rifles, except that I paper patch with pure lead. It is accurate and deadly.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have taken many deer with cast bullets.

My experiences are wide meplat at moderate to high velocities will cause way more disruption in flesh or deer or hogs or elk and so on. Unlike Africa you don’t need super deep penetration because deer are not as tough as a cape buff. (Why a RN is used it is all about penetration to the vitals) Veral Smith put out a phenomenal book talking about cast bullet design and effects in game. LBT Guide to Cast Bullets. Not easy to find anymore but if you can get one read it.

Last Sunday I shot a big doe with a 338 Federal Handgun with a cast 250 grain WFN it was cast hard running 1800 FPS the entrance hole was bigger and more damage than the exit. The deer did the flutter dropped over back wards dead. I could literally give you 50 more examples. That 45 with a wide meplat driven at moderate or higher velocities through the boiler room at any angle will results in a harvested animal.

[Castaway]

As WingerEd said, a 45 starts out at what a 30 caliber want to get to. I’ve shot my share of pigs and deer with wheel weights and they perform great. You don’t have the velocity of a high power rifle, nor do you have the mass of a big 45-70 bullet. At 1,300 f/s, with a 255+ grain bullet, you don’t want to try and push a parachute through an animal with a bullet too soft. My advice is to go with a large meplat such as the Lee RNFP 255 grain bullet or a 250+ grain Keith bullet. Too large of a meplat is likely to give you cycling problems in a lever action

[quilbilly]

Answer to question 1; IMO there is a definite advantage to deformation in that more energy is transferred to the target before the boolit exits the opposite side. This is aside from the obvious advantage of the bigger hole resulting in more tissue damage.
Answer to question 2; From my own terminal ballistics tests at 40 yards into soaked, compressed phone books, boolits of various sizes definitely expand well at a terminal velocity of about 1300 fps with remarkable weight retention up to 95% by the end of the path. When I cast harder alloys up to 22 hardness, little expansion occurred while pieces either sheared off or disintegrated. Those harder boolits often tumbled in the media, not something I would want it to do if I intend to eat the critter.

[Bigslug]

#1. The way the FBI prioritizes is: accuracy first, adequate penetration second, and so long as those aren't compromised, take all the diameter you can get. Whether expansion is good or bad will depend on what kind of sectional density you're sending. A too light bullet that turns into a parachute on impact won't reach the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop.

#2. The Goldilocks issue on hardness is that alloy which expands may not give you accuracy if driven very hard.

15 BHN (AKA Lyman #2) is not going to expand at 1300fps, but the good news is that is widely regarded as a 2,000fps gascheck/rifle alloy, so you can certainly go down to a softer mix. I've had good luck expanding (granted, into water, not meat) and 100 yard rifle accuracy with 20-1 lead/tin near your velocity projection, but it tends to come unglued not a great deal faster.

#2.5. A large meplat of 75% or more on a .45 is going to tear a pretty nasty hole even if it doesn't expand, and will penetrate very consistently in that condition at varied ranges, where expansion of same will often depend on impact velocity which will often depend on distance. Since you're planning to play just outside of knife range anyway, this reduces the number of things you need to think about, but there is a certain simplicity to a non-expanding bullet with a large hammer-face in front of a load that shoots it well.

#3. The super large meplats can begin to have accuracy problems at distance anyway, so that may further simplify your alloy choice. It's worth remembering that the soft alloy 250 grain .45 Colt loads of @900 fps were considered adequate to literally take care of not only you, but also the horse you rode in on.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Hard cast bullets w/ wide meplats driven 1300+ at muzzle simply do not need to expand to open very generous wound channels.
For years I cast mine 22-25 BHN, and they did not shatter for me in game, on rocks in clay banks, nor in soaked newsprint expansion media.

Soft / soft nosed bullets will deform, which in some instances isn't desirable at all for straight penetration.
Over expanded bullets will loose rotational speed, and can destabilize, and rounded noses follow tissue demarcation lines (muscle groups, tendon sheaths, bone/muscle interface, etc.) much worse than flat noses that hold their shape.

There are postings here of bullet performance in expansion media w/ recovered bullets that display several of these aspects.

I still believe what John Linebaugh told me when I bought my first gun from him: Pistols don't need expanding bullets, make it flat, wide and heavy and it will do all you want. Deceased Deer to Bison back this up for me.

If you want a link to some testing I did and posted on this site, where I compared expansion cavity characteristics from soft and hard alloy on a wide meplat 44 bullet, I can add it rather than reiterating.

[bcraig]

My suggestion would be to go with the softer alloy. In general I use nothing harder than 12 BHN for most CF rifles, except that I paper patch with pure lead. It is accurate and deadly.

Deer sure dont need a bullet that is going to act like a FMJ regardless of the size of the Meplat.
It makes no sense to sacrifice Bullet expansio for that type of Game Animal.

I Remember talking with JD Jones of handgun Hunting Fame And Owner of SSK industries umpteen years ago about using a Hard cast bullet for deer and he said why use a solid when a bullet with more expansion will Kill much faster.
This came from a man who killed Elephant's and a slew of other big, dangerous game.
And there has Been a LOT of Deer,Elk,Moose ,Buffalo that Has been Taken with pure Lead bullets throughout the years.




Everyone that has Killed with HARD cast will say that it just kill's 'differently' than a bullet that gives Great expansion and enough penetration.

That is just a fancy way of saying a bullet with no expansion Kill's slower.

[Rapier]

With the 35s-45s with cast bullets, placement is way more important than expansion with the 200-250 grain bullets. So I concentrate on best accuracy, and my best accuracy comes with hard cast. Here lately with powder coated, base up, without gas checks.

[T-Bird]

I have taken a lot of deer with 44 and 45 pistols and pistol cal rifles from 20-60ish yds. I used the same loads in both and got about 1100fps in pistol, and 1300fps in rifle usually. I used coww with a little tin for 12ish bhn. Boolets have been 429421, a gas checked version of a similar boolet (429244?) in 44, and in 45 I've used 270saa and a gas checked 250 gr swc that is by Lyman but I don't remember the no (452244?). So far, I've been lucky enough to get all shots well placed. Every time there has been a complete pass through (some have been quartering), and if the deer ran, it wasn't far and bled copiously to the outside. My point is, you don't have to jack large bore pistols up much if at all to get them to kill well and wfn boolets are ok, but not necessary in my experience. Swc do just fine, as was proven decades ago.

[DougGuy]

OP as others have stated, boolit hardness is not really a factor. Until you get up to a HUGE hog in size where a harder alloy MIGHT penetrate more. MAYBE. What matters is shot placement.

My "hunting" alloy is generally 50/50+2%. Without reading Linebaugh, I unknoingly but instinctively use the widest meplat I can get, alloyed so I can scratch it with a thumbnail, and a heavy 300+ grain GC'd 45 caliber boolit.

The last two deer I shot with a 300gr XTP in 44m the bullets fragmented and drove jacket and lead fragments all through the meat near the wound b/c it hit bone. No more XTP in this camp.

Ruger gave us a perfect tier 2 45 Colt platform with the medium framed vaqueros and BHs. I wanted to build a tier 2 load that would take advantage of the gun's abilities and let me match the load to our thin skinned 80lb to 100lb size deer.

Using QL I developed a load in 45 Schofield brass for a 250gr WFN or the 250gr OWC over 21.5gr H110 with WLP primers, that will make 1200fps and stay under the Vaquero's pressure ceiling of 23,000psi. I also reamed a 45 ACP cylinder to 45 Schofield, this pretty much "matches" the gun and the ammo to the game it is intended to take.

[Hickok]

Just my experience, I could never tell the difference in alloys (.44 and 45 cal) with a nice meplat, on deer. Boolits went clean through leaving a thumb-size exit, animal went usually 50 yards or less, or just dropped.

I got away from the harder alloys over the years, and now use a ACWW or ACWW+pure lead, probably 10-12 bhn. Powder coating made things a lot simpler for me.

[Tripplebeards]

50 yards means a loss deer onto my neighbors property depending on where I shoot it. I sit about a 100 yards off my property line. If I use cast I want a soft fragmenting boolit that dumps most or all of its energy inside the animal with the best chance of it dropping on the spot or going a few feet before dropping. A hard cast bullet for me means it will travel a good 100 yards which I don’t have that luxury of going after it. I have a couple hundred yards on each side of me and then its neighbors on surrounding sides that don’t give permission. If I’m bow hunting they stay on my property after being hit 99.9% of the the time. Gun season is 30-06,35 whelen, and 300 RUM so deer DROP 99.9% of the time with the shot. I’d rather watch my deer drop on the spot and loose a little meat. Don’t care about loosing a couple inches of meat around the hole. I have 12 extra doe tags that give to us automatically when buying a license so I am afford to loose a little meat with a fragmenting boolit. I still haven’t shot a deer this year becuase I have a few deer in the freezer from last year. Ive seen an average of 9 deer a day during rifle season. My best day with archery this year I saw 13 bucks chasing doe in one morning. All within arrow range. I’ve. Passed up dozens of really nice bucks on property during rut. I hit a branch the first week of November and the 14” tined 8 pointer got away with a hair cut. The other buck I was after with drop tines the neighbor kid who has been been hunting for 2 years got lucky and it walked under him at light on opening day. Just bad luck this year. I’ll go out this afternoon with my muzzle loader and probably shoot the first little buck that walks buy since “Horn” season with a smoke pole ends Wendsday.


I’m sure with pigs you can use harder alloys since they have a lot tougher hides, bones, and tough shoulder plates vs a thin skinned deer. Seen the Australian guy here use straight wheel weights on pigs with my HPs and lee 300’s with excellent results. The HP cavities fragmented off. He was shooting them out of a 44 mag rifle at 1600/1700 fps range if I remember. He has sone recovered boolits that hit the hard shoulder plates that had text book expansion. He also had miles and miles of land to track them down after the shot as well.


After I had runners with the 44 mag at 1750 fps using 15.4 bh and a non expanding HP. I switched to a group buy 200 grain HP in my 35 Rem at 2100 fps at 10.4 BH. It drops deer in their tracks.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?414159-Finally-shot-a-deer-with-my-Marlin-336-and-our-200-grain-HP-group-buy!

[TexasAg11]

I love this forum because everyone is very polite, very knowledgeable, and genuinely looking to help people out with their journey. Much appreciated.

As a bow hunter my brain is hard-wired to open up a large wound. This is because every animal runs 30+ yards typically and in Texas brush a 50-100 yard run can be a problem without a good blood trail, especially on a hog with thick hair. My single experience with a 22 BHN WFNGC .45 at ~1000 FPS, while resulting in a clean kill, left literally no blood on the ground. This makes the bowhunter inside of me nervous haha. :)

Agreed that shot placement and penetration (two holes) are more important, but assuming these two are optimized i do plan to optimize my load for wound size.

I plan to test all of this stuff out for myself and plan to report back what my experiences are. Not to sound heretical but i have heard great things about the Barnes XPB and Swift A-Frame bullets as well and plan to Critter-Test these as well.

[Castaway]

Deer are like rifles. They all react differently to different loads. I’ve double lunged and jellied the heart of deer with 420 grains of putty soft lead moving in excess of 1,800 f/s and I’ve still had them run 100 yards with blood squirting with every leap. The only way to guarantee a pig or deer staying where it was shot is to lasso it before you pull the trigger

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve used swift a frame factory loaded 30-06 silver cased ammo when they offered it back in the early 90’s. Very little to No expansion with broadside heart and lung shots using the 180 grain version. If I hit shoulder they dropped on the spot. I’m sure they are a great shoulder plate hog hammer. To expensive now imo to use with todays prices and imo a plain old hand loaded 180 grain core loct drops deer faster for me. All copper Barnes never grouped well enough in over a dozen guns I ladder tested them in to use for hunting. From what “I’ve read” most animals act like they were hit with a FMJ or 20 plus BH hard cast bullet and run a good ways before dropping unless a shoulder is hit.

As castaway said heart shots equals runners. I shot one with a 300 RUM in the heart 2 years ago and it went a 110 yards with a blood trail a blind man could follow. If I broadside double lung shoot they normally drop on the spot. Shot placement is key no matter what alloy, caliber, or speed. Shot a deer the next day with a 243 and 90 grain ballistic tip. It dropped like Thors hammer and never flinched. Broke both shoulders and took out the lungs. Bullet was resting on the outside of the offside shoulder and under the hide. Lead was sitting in the jacket and separated. First deer with a 243…I was impressed! It was 20 yards max and loaded .5 grains over max book load so it was moving!

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I've shot several deer with a ML and pure lead round balls. If they hit bone the flattened ball was usually found under the skin on the far side. I've also shot some deer with my .45-70 using very soft bullets (I didn't test). They always went through, even the HP ones after hitting bone. Just my experiences.

[Bass Ackward]

I agree with Castaway. If there was one magic caliber, one guaranteed bore diameter, bullet design, velocity level, hardness, then after 300 plus years of use SOMEBODY would have lucked into the holy grail. Use anything mentioned by folks here long enough and under the wrong circumstances, you will eventually be disappointed. Then you’ll try something else that has already been tried over and over. That’s my story anyway.

[Anchorite]

Lots of experience in this thread and even more anecdotal advice based on that experience. I can’t really add anything except to say, IMO, somewhere along the way “we” got obsessed with hard cast bullets being “hard.” Perhaps too hard.
It’s placement first, then bullet “construction,” and within those parameters one has to decide if they want expansion or penetration.

Personally I lean toward penetration for the simple fact that that means 2 holes coupled with some level of disruption to the system and blood pressure of the quarry.

[ChristopherO]

I've shot plenty of deer with 350 grain pure lead boollits out of muzzleloaders at 1,200 fps and always expected the death run. Sometimes the did drop on the spot but extremely rare. Big heavy slugs from rifled shotguns have obliterated lungs, turned hearts into lasagna, and still they've run 60 yards. The solft 420 grain WFN boollit out of the 45/70 leaving the muzzle at 1,600 fps might flatten the deer, or incite it to run a bit. Try as we might, we cannot always turn off tge animal's switch every time. But I'll cast softer rather than hard for hunting year in any year out.

[Dieselhorses]

I've killed deer/hog with Hornady A-Tip, J-words but mainly cast (low BHN), fine line between obturation, penetration and shot placement. "Bigslug" ironed it out with what the FBI does (one of the few things they do right!).

[Ramjet-SS]

Deer sure dont need a bullet that is going to act like a FMJ regardless of the size of the Meplat.
It makes no sense to sacrifice Bullet expansio for that type of Game Animal.

I Remember talking with JD Jones of handgun Hunting Fame And Owner of SSK industries umpteen years ago about using a Hard cast bullet for deer and he said why use a solid when a bullet with more expansion will Kill much faster.
This came from a man who killed Elephant's and a slew of other big, dangerous game.
And there has Been a LOT of Deer,Elk,Moose ,Buffalo that Has been Taken with pure Lead bullets throughout the years.




Everyone that has Killed with HARD cast will say that it just kill's 'differently' than a bullet that gives Great expansion and enough penetration.

That is just a fancy way of saying a bullet with no expansion Kill's slower.


Dead is dead for me dead is what every animal up to and including elk with a 44 mag were and a hard cast WFN.

This shouldn’t be controversial use what works not everything works all the time. I practice with I hunt with and casting WFN is not as expensive as a box of Nosler Partition PB or even Hawk custom soft nose bullets. So the economics of practice and consistency comes into play for me as well. Jacketed bullets are sky High in cost.

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, hard or soft...it will still kill. I just like soft so the expansion will tensfer energy along with making larger entry and exit wounds for a better blood trail...if needed. My experience with hard cast is I don't get blood trails...or very poor ones. Soft I haven't needed to track as most drop in their tracks. I'm sure I'll have a deer with a will to live some day with soft alloys but none yet to date. Stay tuned.lol. to me soft alloys are like mechanical broadheads. If they work like they should you'll get bigger holes, igger blood trails, and a shorter tracking job. I'll get out Wednesday and try my 7.5 BH 260 grain Lyman Devastator hollow point driven at 1600 fps put of 77/44 on the first after less deer that walls by and see how it does vs the Same boolit casted at 15.4 bh.

[TurnipEaterDown]

... So the economics of practice and consistency comes into play for me as well. Jacketed bullets are sky High in cost.

My thoughts and practice as well.

FWIW: Everything I have experienced is large meplats must hit hard to really open the wound channel well over bullet diameter.
1300 - 1500 fps impact and I have seen holes in game and media easily 3-6 times bullet diameter.
The 'mushy' cavity can be well larger.
I shot a WT doe in the ham from the rear once (offhand - meant to go in at base of tail, but I dorked it) w/ a 475 WFN doing 1650 at muzzle. The deer was ~ 25-30 yds. I could easily close and roll my fist around inside the ham once I got my hand past the entrance.

If the meplat isn't really flat (slightly rounded), they just don't work nearly as well.
Cavitation of the media from bullet intrusion contributes to the cavity generation, and this works better if the meplat is flat and sharp edged.
The hardcast helps retain this shape.

If the nose is soft, leading to deformation and rounding at impact, they don't work as well in expansion media either.

The modeling and explanation of how Hydrostaticly stabilized solids by Woodleigh work gives some useful imagery on the functioning mechanism of the large meplat bullets as well.

[TexasAg11]

Yep, hard or soft...it will still kill. I just like soft so the expansion will tensfer energy along with making larger entry and exit wounds for a better blood trail...if needed. My experience with hard cast is I don't get blood trails...or very poor ones. Soft I haven't needed to track as most drop in their tracks. I'm sure I'll have a deer with a will to live some day with soft alloys but none yet to date. Stay tuned.lol. to me soft alloys are like mechanical broadheads. If they work like they should you'll get bigger holes, igger blood trails, and a shorter tracking job. I'll get out Wednesday and try my 7.5 BH 260 grain Lyman Devastator hollow point driven at 1600 fps put of 77/44 on the first after less deer that walls by and see how it does vs the Same boolit casted at 15.4 bh.

The mechanical broadhead analogy is an interesting one and makes a lot of sense to me.

[TexasAg11]

My thoughts and practice as well.

FWIW: Everything I have experienced is large meplats must hit hard to really open the wound channel well over bullet diameter.
1300 - 1500 fps impact and I have seen holes in game and media easily 3-6 times bullet diameter.
The 'mushy' cavity can be well larger.
I shot a WT doe in the ham from the rear once (offhand - meant to go in at base of tail, but I dorked it) w/ a 475 WFN doing 1650 at muzzle. The deer was ~ 25-30 yds. I could easily close and roll my fist around inside the ham once I got my hand past the entrance.

If the meplat isn't really flat (slightly rounded), they just don't work nearly as well.
Cavitation of the media from bullet intrusion contributes to the cavity generation, and this works better if the meplat is flat and sharp edged.
The hardcast helps retain this shape.

If the nose is soft, leading to deformation and rounding at impact, they don't work as well in expansion media either.

The modeling and explanation of how Hydrostaticly stabilized solids by Woodleigh work gives some useful imagery on the functioning mechanism of the large meplat bullets as well.

Really good info here, much appreciated. Yeah i was surprised when i shot my deer how little blood there was. The hide had a .45ish sized hole but the front quarter was over an inch. Im guessing the wide meplat doesnt really start working its magic until it hit something that is denser than the outer hide.

[Tripplebeards]

Imo it doesn’t work ANY magic unless hard bone is hit and the bone fragments litterally “explode” everywhere acting like a ballistic tip does causing several wound cavities and shock. That’s what happened to the third little doe in my 44 mag post above (that's why the guys here who shoot hard cast tell you to aim high shoulder so bone is hit) You can see chunks of bone missing and a large entry and exit on my 3rd deer in the post. The bone fragments literally went in every direction. Chunks of bone fragments all over inside the deer. It still didn’t kill it immediately or on the spot with all that trauma. The bone fragments shattered and went in every direction causing trauma and shock. I’m my expert of No bone is hit a hard cast boolit will sail right through like a FMJ or arrow with a field point. Everyone has their own opinion. Ive tested both on deer and can tell you soft HPs only for me. Just cast up both and shoot a few deer with them. You’ll quickly form an opinion and pick which alloy you like the best.

[Hickok]

My experience has also proven to me, that sometimes no matter what you hit the animal with, you will experience little to no blood loss displayed on the ground, even with a clear pass-through. A lot depends on the angle of the shot and how high or low it is in the body cavity.

I have hit deer with mechanical broad-heads that open up to 2 inch diameter (2 and 3 blades) cutting immediately on impact, and if the arrow is mid-line in the lung cavity, sometimes no blood trail at all, as the blood pools in the lower part of the chest cavity, never getting up to wound hole, yet the deer runs maybe 30 to 50 yards and drops dead before any blood is expelled. With the chest cavity and lungs perforated with a 2 inch diameter hole through and through, there is no vacuum or air pressure to "blow or exhale" any blood. The animal is simple running dead, all the blood contained in the bottom of the chest.

If the arrow enters high on one side and exits low on the bottom of the chest, (a elevated tree-stand shoot), the blood has an easy exit and floods the ground, it looks like a red carpet as the deer runs.

A 2 inch diameter cut by a razor sharp broad looks like someone drove a medieval sword through the deer. Yet sometimes, there may be little to no blood trail, or other times it looks blind man could track the deer with his bare hands.

Jacketed expanding bullets and cast with good meplats can act similarly, depended on how high or low the shot hits in heart/lung cavity.

One just never knows...does one do!:shock:

[dtknowles]

Hard pointy bullets for targets, soft blunt bullets for hunting. Do you really need to worry about leading if you are hunting big game, not taking very many shots and do you worry about a couple tenths of a MOA on accuracy. I don't think you have to go all WFN but should be a flat point for hunting.
Tim

[Bigbore5]

Buy an hp mold of 270-300grs. Use the largest pin.Cast a 10bhn alloy. Keep it between 1200 &1300fps.

[pls1911]

AMEN.
Praise the message: DAYLIGHT TRANSFER!
SHouder/spine junction area doesn't tear up meat (beside the hole), and always provided a drop in their own shadow.

[magnumuser]

For the OP,, the original 45 colt load used 40 grains of black powder and a 255 grain flatpoint bullet propelled at a nominal 1,000 fps. That cartridge was proven to shoot through the rib cage of a horse at i think, 50 yards.

A horse or mule or burro, has much, much more bone structure then a deer. SO the issue is not actually penetration, but how you want the bullet to behave. In that the bullet stays in one piece, or explodes on impact.

[Bigslug]

Catching up on this thread.

All my four deer kills have been with .30 caliber Barnes TTSX rifle bullets, and I was able to witness a fifth take a rapid double tap from a hard alloy RCBS 405 grain FNGC out of a HOT .45-70 load. The .30's were significantly above the OP's 1300 fps and the .45-70 was probably striking something to the tune of 500-600 fps faster.

Granted, all of those deer were down pretty quick, but from what I saw in the post-mortems, blood trail is not something I'd expect much of from pistol bullets - expanding or not.

321268

Attached pic is the exit wound from a 130 grain Barnes out of my .308 after entering between the front legs on a quartering towards me shot. Impact speed would have been about 2600 fps. The heart was well-disintegrated, but you wouldn't know it from the external evidence.

Given the elasticity of skin and it's ability to slide over external muscle tissue, there will tend to be a lot of self-sealing - even though the animal may be bleeding out in torrents internally. All of the aforementioned five deer, plus a couple more of my Pop's .280 Rem TTSX kills, had exits very similar. Lots of blood in the chest cavity - very little on the ground. . . and that's with tissue being displaced by velocity your handgun doesn't have.

If you make a decent cardiovascular drain internally, they should get woozy and fall within about ten seconds. The .31 to .34 caliber meplats have a pretty good reputation for this on solid, non-expanding .45's. If you opt for a hollowpoint and softer alloy, I'd try to stick with a finished bullet weight above 250 grains to ensure adequate penetration.