.38 S&W Victory Model loads (160 SWC Hollow Points)

[diddlyv]

Sometime in the last Year I acquired a few S&W Victory Models and one S&W M&P made about 2 months before start of Victory Model SNs. This one has had a 2.5 inch barrel mounted and a .38 S&W Cylinder that has been reamed out to .38 Spec. Another has had a Parker Hale rework that had a 4 Inch barrel with a Long Ramp Sight Mounted. The third is an untouched 5 inch. I am about to embark on a quest to see if it possible to load the .38 S&W to .38 Special velocites. I have determined that the .38 S&W case has approximately .67 of the .38 Special. I am guessing the .67 x Max .38 Spec load is the absolute maximum. With A5 powder this equates to 3.95 grains. Not wishing to create a hand grenade and loose my fingers and eyes not to mention potentially my life. I plan on starting at 3.1 grains and going up at .1 grain increments with a max of 3.7grains. Testing velocities with the idea of stopping at the velocity of a .38 special load shot from the gun or if I start picking up pressure signs. I do have a colt police positive and a Webley MK IV that are only safe at standard .38 S&W loads. I load the 200 grain bullet for them at 600 is FPS like the original British .38 200 load. My intent is to use 160 Grain SWCHP cast bullets from GT Bullets for the Victory model only loads.

Has anyone out there tried to get .38 Special Velocities from their Victory Model .38 S&W. If I am embarking on a fools errand please say so. The other alternative is to just buy a model 10 cylinder in .38 Spec for any or all of the pistols. I have given serious consideration of doing just that for the Snub Nose that had the reamed out cylinder.

[cwtebay]

I think that's a fantastic way to either:
A) destroy your revolver
B) lose body parts that you have come to enjoy.

The S&W case is 33% less capacity than the 38 Special.

I am unsure why you wish to go down this road? You have established that you have safe loads for your other revolvers - why not pick up a new one in 38 Special for this? Surely a Taurus or similar are less expensive than your well being?

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[reddog81]

.38 Special is a larger case that operates at a higher pressure than .38 S&W. Trying to replicate the same velocity using .38 S&W cases will require higher pressures than .38 Special.

I just load .38 S&W to .38 S&W specs. What are you trying to do that 100 or 200 FPS will make a difference? Paper targets won’t know the difference. If you own that many .38 S&Ws I’d imagine you also own a few .38 Specials.

[diddlyv]

Not really pushing very far Lyman 51 lists a max 3.5 gr of A5 with a 160 cast bullet at 12,300 psi. I am using a 16,300 psi hand gun not one designed to be maxed out at 12,000 such as a Police Positive or a Webley.

[Outpost75]

While the Victory S&W is more sturdy than the top-breaks, the gun will shoot loose if loads appreciably exceed about 16,000 psi. In my Victory S&Ws I load soft lead 148-grain HBWC bullets seated to 1.2" OAL with 2.7 grains of Bullseye for 720 fps from the 5-inch barrel. Alternately you can load soft-swaged 158-grain lead bullets at 1.24" OAL with 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 700 fps or NOE .363-204RN with the same charge for 625 fps.

In .38 Special brass do not exceed 3 grains of Bullseye with the 148 HBWC, 3.5 grains with 158 lead SWC or LRN or 3.2 grains with the 204 LRN.

[JoeJames]

I tried the 148 grain HBWC's in my Victory 38S&W, and it was certainly not regulated for such a light bullet. It shot at or below the bottom of the target at 15 yards. 200 grain MK1 from Matt's brought it up considerably due to dwell time.

320359

[schutzen-jager]

fwiw - my Parker Hale M+P with a .38 special reamed cyl. shoots to the same point of impact with either 2.3gr. red dot + 158gr. semi wad cutters in .38 S&W or 3.5 gr. red dot with same bullet in .38 special - both loads exhibit w/equal accuracy at 25yds. - i have no idea about the actual velocity of either load - in almost 3 decades i never had a split .38 spec case in the modified cyl.

[Tall]

Sometime in the last Year I acquired a few S&W Victory Models and one S&W M&P made about 2 months before start of Victory Model SNs. This one has had a 2.5 inch barrel mounted and a .38 S&W Cylinder that has been reamed out to .38 Spec. Another has had a Parker Hale rework that had a 4 Inch barrel with a Long Ramp Sight Mounted. The third is an untouched 5 inch. I am about to embark on a quest to see if it possible to load the .38 S&W to .38 Special velocites. I have determined that the .38 S&W case has approximately .67 of the .38 Special. I am guessing the .67 x Max .38 Spec load is the absolute maximum. With A5 powder this equates to 3.95 grains. Not wishing to create a hand grenade and loose my fingers and eyes not to mention potentially my life. I plan on starting at 3.1 grains and going up at .1 grain increments with a max of 3.7grains. Testing velocities with the idea of stopping at the velocity of a .38 special load shot from the gun or if I start picking up pressure signs. I do have a colt police positive and a Webley MK IV that are only safe at standard .38 S&W loads. I load the 200 grain bullet for them at 600 is FPS like the original British .38 200 load. My intent is to use 160 Grain SWCHP cast bullets from GT Bullets for the Victory model only loads.

Has anyone out there tried to get .38 Special Velocities from their Victory Model .38 S&W. If I am embarking on a fools errand please say so. The other alternative is to just buy a model 10 cylinder in .38 Spec for any or all of the pistols. I have given serious consideration of doing just that for the Snub Nose that had the reamed out cylinder.

Yes you are on a fool's errand. Get the 200 grain bullets from Matt's and use 38 S&W cases. Quit trying to hotrod an 80 year old revolver.

[reddog81]

Not really pushing very far Lyman 51 lists a max 3.5 gr of A5 with a 160 cast bullet at 12,300 psi. I am using a 16,300 psi hand gun not one designed to be maxed out at 12,000 such as a Police Positive or a Webley.

You originally asked about matching 38 Special velocities. Getting 38 Special velocities out of a smaller case will require more pressure than 38 Special. I'm sure a 16,000 PSI load will be fine in the gun but what are you using to measure the pressure? Just multiplying 38 Special loads by .67 isn't going to track exactly to the 67% of the pressure of the original load. Powders behave differently at different pressure levels and with different sized cases. Your estimate might be high or it might be low.

The logical and easiest answer is to just use .38 S&W load data. If you want to push it a bit you will be fine since the gun is much stronger than the top breaks the round was originally designed for. However no one is going to be able to answer how much you can push it. What pressure signs do you think you will find in a cartridge like 38 S&W? Push the gun until it breaks and then you will know you went too far...

[JoeJames]

You originally asked about matching 38 Special velocities. Getting 38 Special velocities out of a smaller case will require more pressure than 38 Special. I'm sure a 16,000 PSI load will be fine in the gun but what are you using to measure the pressure? Just multiplying 38 Special loads by .67 isn't going to track exactly to the 67% of the pressure of the original load. Powders behave differently at different pressure levels and with different sized cases. Your estimate might be high or it might be low.

The logical and easiest answer is to just use .38 S&W load data. If you want to push it a bit you will be fine since the gun is much stronger than the top breaks the round was originally designed for. However no one is going to be able to answer how much you can push it. What pressure signs do you think you will find in a cartridge like 38 S&W? Push the gun until it breaks and then you will know you went too far...That sounds like one great rule of thumb there (just kidding). Kind of thing I might have been sceered to do even when I was younger.

[georgerkahn]

One of my most favourite revolvers is a "US Government Property" inscribed Victory Model -- I call it a Model 11 -- in .38 Smith and Wesson (serial number 670xxx), which I purchased from a favourite minister! To shoot it, I was given a small supply of factory rounds, but wished to cast for and shoot more! From the great folks (:)!!!) at Buffalo Arms I purchased one of their moulds expressively for the .38 S&W: a 2-cavity .361 2-cavity .38 Smith & Wesson mould.
I bought a "pile" of "on close-out" sale :) primed new brass, and with my cast bullets I do quite well with a tad less than two and one-half grains of Bullseye powder.
Bion, I have never "compared" velocities with a similar-framed revolver in .38 S&W Special -- but the recoil, report, and grouping as quite similar in both.

[Tatume]

The 38 S&W has a larger diameter case than the 38 Special, at both the neck and the base. The 38 Special has a longer case, and this is what was changed by running a 38 Special reamer in the 38 S&W chambers. The chambers are still larger in diameter than the 38 Special. If these were my guns, I would use 38 S&W cases in all of them, including the one that was lengthened.

Since the guns have fixed sights, it is unlikely that point of aim will coincide satisfactorily with point of impact using relatively light bullets (as others have already pointed out). If they were my guns, I would shoot 200 gr soft lead bullets of the appropriate diameter (0.361") at the appropriate speed (approximately 650 fps); if they were my guns.

I have quite a few early K-frame 22 & 38 revolvers. I enjoy shooting them, and I treat them with the respect they deserve.

[schutzen-jager]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?458323-38S-amp-W-boolits-sized361-362-for-the-38-S-amp-W

[gnoahhh]

If he's shooting .38 Specials in chambers reamed as such out of original .38 S&W chambers I'll bet he's getting some horribly swelled (if not split) cases. This wasn't an uncommon practice back in the day when Victory Models were a dime-a-dozen and .38 S&W was a hard sell. Having encountered such travesties in the hands of less-informed folks I can vouch for the swelling/splitting phenomenon.

FWIW, I load soft (1:30, 1:40) 200 grain RNFP's out of a Lee mold, sized/lubed as-cast .360", and 2.0gr. Bullseye for use in my pre-war .38/200 (.38S&W) Enfield No.2MkIV. Velocity so slow you can almost see them fly through the air, but who cares - the paper target sure doesn't! But, at the same time I would hate for you to shoot me with one of them!

[Texas by God]

If he's shooting .38 Specials in chambers reamed as such out of original .38 S&W chambers I'll bet he's getting some horribly swelled (if not split) cases. This wasn't an uncommon practice back in the day when Victory Models were a dime-a-dozen and .38 S&W was a hard sell. Having encountered such travesties in the hands of less-informed folks I can vouch for the swelling/splitting phenomenon.

FWIW, I load soft (1:30, 1:40) 200 grain RNFP's out of a Lee mold, sized/lubed as-cast .360", and 2.0gr. Bullseye for use in my pre-war .38/200 (.38S&W) Enfield No.2MkIV. Velocity so slow you can almost see them fly through the air, but who cares - the paper target sure doesn't! But, at the same time I would hate for you to shoot me with one of them!

I can testify to seeing .38 S&W bullets fly!
Spotlighting in the High Plains, it was hilarious to see the 148 gr Speer hbwc bullets from my Enfield - in the light on their way to missing a running cottontail!


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[schutzen-jager]

If he's shooting .38 Specials in chambers reamed as such out of original .38 S&W chambers I'll bet he's getting some horribly swelled (if not split) cases. This wasn't an uncommon practice back in the day when Victory Models were a dime-a-dozen and .38 S&W was a hard sell. Having encountered such travesties in the hands of less-informed folks I can vouch for the swelling/splitting phenomenon.

FWIW, I load soft (1:30, 1:40) 200 grain RNFP's out of a Lee mold, sized/lubed as-cast .360", and 2.0gr. Bullseye for use in my pre-war .38/200 (.38S&W) Enfield No.2MkIV. Velocity so slow you can almost see them fly through the air, but who cares - the paper target sure doesn't! But, at the same time I would hate for you to shoot me with one of them!

depends on how carefully + precisely the chambers were reamed - been regularly shooting 3 + converted ones by Cogswell + Harrison + Parker Hale in England + have never had a split or overly bulged case in over three decades of use - the ones sloppily converted by many importer + distributors here can be a problem -

[farmbif]

my old victory model has 4" barrel marked on the side "38 S&W SPECIAL CTG" and I only shoot 38 special loaded with 125 grain cast with either 3.7 grains bullseye or 4 grains BE86 though it. its a good cause to use up my Remington 1 1/2 primers. no reason to beat up on my old piece of history with max loads.
wish my old eyes could see the sights on it as well as I used to. maybe time to see an eye doctor

[schutzen-jager]

most 4" were originally chambered for .38 special only - the lend lease .38S&W were originally 5" barrels - many U.S. distributers cut the 5" to 4" + even some to 2" eliminating the ejector rod support -
Parker Hale sleeves a quantity to .22 rf with replacement sights for Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago in the 1960's

[schutzen-jager]

found time to do some controlled checking of 2 of my revolvers - S&W model 10-4 in .38 Special + old M+P built from parts including .38S&W cylinder + lock work converted to .38 Special by Cogswell + Harrison in England - like i previously stated i have never in many decades had a split case when shooting .38 Specials thru it - used once fired .38 Special Federal brass cases, loaded with 3.5 grs. of red dot, under 158 gr. cast lead lubed w/LLA - fired 6 shots in 6 individual chambers in both pistols - average measurements of six shots shown - .381 in Special chambers + .386 in the S&W chambers - both cylinders showed very little deviation between chambers -