approximate velocity difference between heavier bullet using same Powder and same pow

[bcraig]

I watched a youtube video where the shooter(30-06John) was using 5.5 grains of HP-38 44 Special ammo with 240 Grain bullet in his Henry 44 Magnum 16 inch barreled Lever action carbine.
With chronographed data of about 960 FPS.

I have a Rossi 92 16 inch barrel that I am also going to be using 44 Special ammo and HP-38 Powder to load with.
The Main difference is that he is using a 240 grain Hardcast Lead bullet and I am going to be using a Matt's Bullet's 250 Grain HollowPoint 20:1 bullet.

Can I use the same data ,for the heavier Bullet I will be shooting .
Next if the answer is yes I can,then about how much velocity difference will there be between the 2 bullet weights ?

He also chronographed his Ruger Super Blackhawk with the same load and showed his Carbine gaining about 160 FPS over the pistol.

Anyone got any Recent 44 special load data
using a 250-255 grain Lead bullet with 5.5 Grains of HP-38 ?

[Hick]

You need to consult a bonafide loading manual. youtube is not a valid source of loading data. Use a manual. Never trust your gun to a youtuber. part of the problem is that max loads are based on the long term fatigue resistance of the metals in the firearm-- so that there is no limit to how many rounds you can shoot. Lots of loads that work for awhile will kill the firearm in the long term (that's why you cannot trust another shooter instead of a loading manual). Too many people think that a load that works for a few hundred or a even few thousand rounds is safe-- because they do not understand metal fatigue.

[elmacgyver0]

Metal fatigue is an interesting phenomenon, it can be demonstrated by bending a piece of wire back and forth.
This is how we broke off a piece of bailer wire to make a fence tie back on the farm when we didn't have a pair of cutters handy.
Something else that is interesting is harmonic resonances.
In a past life, I serviced Muzak systems, you know, elevator music.
It was delivered by various methods, one being by sub-carrier, a signal piggybacked on a FM carrier of a radio station.
Anyway, the receiving station consisted of a receiver, feed line and an antenna.
What we are interested in is the antenna, usually mounted on the roof of a building like a hospital or a bank maybe.
I would get a call that the Muzak was not working or would come and go, upon climbing on the roof I would find little, short aluminum tubes laying under the antenna.
Looking at the antenna I would see that some of the elements were to short by the amount of the length of the tubes I found under the antenna.
The ends of the antenna and the tubes were absolutely perfect, almost like cut by a laser beam.
It seems that the wind blowing past the open elements of the antenna would cause them to resonate and in time it took its toll, at the resonate point it just caused the end to fall off.
The resonance caused the metal to fatigue.

[P Flados]

Quickload says that increasing weight from 240 to 250 for the load stated will reduce velocity by 16 fps if everything else is unchanged.

Now that is not really all that meaningful to you. Everything else will not be unchanged. Some guns are faster than others. Some batches of powder are hotter than others. And do not forget that seating depth matters. An increase in seating depth by 0.022" for the load is predicted to offset the weight increase and keep the velocity the same.

You should be able to safely work up a load for your gun. The gun has plenty of pressure margin. Quickload says you will be right at 44 Sp SAAMI max pressure when your load reaches 990 fps. If you do not have a chrono, just use the "sonic crack" to judge where you are as you work up loads.

If you are want to shoot subsonic, the 5.5 gr of HP-38 is probably close to what you want. Load a ladder in 0.2 gr increments from say 5.0 up to 5.8 and see if you can detect where you get the sonic crack. Repeat with 0.1 gr increments from 0.2 gr below to 0.1 gr above what you think was the threshold. Drop down to about 0.2 gr below the threshold and you should have a nice subsonic load.

If you ever want to duplicate the same velocity in 44 Mag brass, expect to use a charge very close to 0.5 gr more than what you used in the 44 Sp brass (assuming the same seating depth).

[bcraig]

You need to consult a bonafide loading manual. youtube is not a valid source of loading data. Use a manual. Never trust your gun to a youtuber. part of the problem is that max loads are based on the long term fatigue resistance of the metals in the firearm-- so that there is no limit to how many rounds you can shoot. Lots of loads that work for awhile will kill the firearm in the long term (that's why you cannot trust another shooter instead of a loading manual). Too many people think that a load that works for a few hundred or a even few thousand rounds is safe-- because they do not understand metal fatigue.

Hi
While I do appreciate the concern I have already cross referenced the You tube video with Brian Pierces 44 special article in Handloader Magazine, August -September 2005 in which he discusses the 3 Loading levels of the 44 special .
Level 1 is load's that are 15,500 PSI or less .
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf
I can find a Load with a 240 Lead semi wadcutter and 5.5 grains of Winchester 231/Same as HP-38 that is going 804 FPS from a 6.5 inch barrel which is less than 10 fps difference between the Youtube Gentleman's data and Loading and a 5.5 inch barrel.
Also In Brian Pierces He Goes as High as 6 Grains with the Winchester 231/HP-38 and a 250 grain Keith,at less than 15,500 PSI
Also matches up very well with a conversation I had with a Hodgdon ballistic tech that I asked about the difference between the velocities from a Handgun 8 inch barrel that Hodgdon uses and the 16 inch Barrel that I have using HP-38 and CFE Pistol Powder
He told me that using those types of Powder's that they averaged 100-150 FPS faster than their Pistol barrel Length.
Also looking in my Speer Number #10 Reloading Manual it show's a Load using 5.7 grains of Winchester 231HP-38


I spoke with a Hodgdon Ballistic tech and he told me that using HP-38 and CfE Pistol that the velocities were between 100-150 Faster From a 16 inch barrel than they were from the 8 inch barrel that they use which Matches up with the youtube Gentleman's difference between the 5.5 inch barrel and His Henry 16 inch barreled Carbine.

My Speer #10 Reloading show's a Loading of Winchester 5.7 Grains of231/HP-38 behind a 240 Lead Semi-Wadcutter at being 781 FPS from a Charter Arms 4 inch barrel less than 15,900 CUP as all their Listed Loads are.

Given my Cross referencing of this Data I do believe that this Particular Youtube Genteleman's data is spot on.

As I asked I was Just looking for some more Newer Data to better know the difference between the speed going from the 240 grain to the 250-255 Grain Bullet.
Perhaps someone has newer data that will show more bullet's, like round nose flat points or Hollowpoint RNFP 240 grain to the 250 grain Hollowpoint RNFP that I have.

I am almost 64 Years old and I do not believe That Metal Fatigue
Using such a load will ever be an issue in my lifetime Using the Ultra strong Modern 92 Action.
If I live another 10-15 years I am sure I will be a lot more fatigued than the Metal on the Carbine will be !

Would you happen to have more recent Load data ?

Thank's

[bcraig]

Metal fatigue is an interesting phenomenon, it can be demonstrated by bending a piece of wire back and forth.
This is how we broke off a piece of bailer wire to make a fence tie back on the farm when we didn't have a pair of cutters handy.
Something else that is interesting is harmonic resonances.
In a past life, I serviced Muzak systems, you know, elevator music.
It was delivered by various methods, one being by sub-carrier, a signal piggybacked on a FM carrier of a radio station.
Anyway, the receiving station consisted of a receiver, feed line and an antenna.
What we are interested in is the antenna, usually mounted on the roof of a building like a hospital or a bank maybe.
I would get a call that the Muzak was not working or would come and go, upon climbing on the roof I would find little, short aluminum tubes laying under the antenna.
Looking at the antenna I would see that some of the elements were to short by the amount of the length of the tubes I found under the antenna.
The ends of the antenna and the tubes were absolutely perfect, almost like cut by a laser beam.
It seems that the wind blowing past the open elements of the antenna would cause them to resonate and in time it took its toll, at the resonate point it just caused the end to fall off.
The resonance caused the metal to fatigue.

Yes I grew up on a farm myself done it many times.
Also instead of trying to untwist a Metal coat hanger to use the wire you can do the same thing.

Although it wont be elevator Music it will be soft music to me when I am shooting the Light 44 special load !

Thank's

[bcraig]

Quickload says that increasing weight from 240 to 250 for the load stated will reduce velocity by 16 fps if everything else is unchanged.

Now that is not really all that meaningful to you. Everything else will not be unchanged. Some guns are faster than others. Some batches of powder are hotter than others. And do not forget that seating depth matters. An increase in seating depth by 0.022" for the load is predicted to offset the weight increase and keep the velocity the same.

You should be able to safely work up a load for your gun. The gun has plenty of pressure margin. Quickload says you will be right at 44 Sp SAAMI max pressure when your load reaches 990 fps. If you do not have a chrono, just use the "sonic crack" to judge where you are as you work up loads.

If you are want to shoot subsonic, the 5.5 gr of HP-38 is probably close to what you want. Load a ladder in 0.2 gr increments from say 5.0 up to 5.8 and see if you can detect where you get the sonic crack. Repeat with 0.1 gr increments from 0.2 gr below to 0.1 gr above what you think was the threshold. Drop down to about 0.2 gr below the threshold and you should have a nice subsonic load.

If you ever want to duplicate the same velocity in 44 Mag brass, expect to use a charge very close to 0.5 gr more than what you used in the 44 Sp brass (assuming the same seating depth).

Hi
That is some good information

That quick load sounds like it does a lot of thing's even though I dont understand how it works it
For example when you say Max pressure is reached at 990 FPS is that 990 FPS from a Pistol Length barrel or a 16 inch carbine like I have ?
Definetly wanting to shoot subsonic to be easier on the ears and lower velocities to be easier on my shoulder.
I had no issue with the HSM 44 special 240 Grain Semi-Wadcutter factory load which is rated at around 850 FPS which uses titegroup Powder from about a 6 inch barreled pistol,according to a Guy I spoke with at HSM.
I dont know the Powder charge as when I asked he did not know.

Thank's for the information

[P Flados]

The 990 fps was just where the load fired from a 16" gun was predicted to reach SAAMI max (15,550 psi) for 44 Sp ammo. Chamber pressure does not care about barrel length, so what ever it takes to get to 990 fps in your gun makes the load right at the limit for "safe in any gun that can shoot factory ammo".

And just for grins, I ran Titegroup and found 5.5 gr was predicted to push a 250 gr cast bullet to 950 fps from a 16" gun. Reducing down to 5.0 gr dropped the results to 900 fps and going to 4.5 gr got down to 850 fps.

People chasing the least report from subs have frequently found Titegroup performs well.

[bcraig]

The 990 fps was just where the load fired from a 16" gun was predicted to reach SAAMI max (15,550 psi) for 44 Sp ammo. Chamber pressure does not care about barrel length, so what ever it takes to get to 990 fps in your gun makes the load right at the limit for "safe in any gun that can shoot factory ammo".

And just for grins, I ran Titegroup and found 5.5 gr was predicted to push a 250 gr cast bullet to 950 fps from a 16" gun. Reducing down to 5.0 gr dropped the results to 900 fps and going to 4.5 gr got down to 850 fps.

People chasing the least report from subs have frequently found Titegroup performs well.

Thank's for your help and the Information .
So HSM is probably using 4.5 grains of TiteGroup right ?

I do not have a chronograph although I had a friend a long time ago that had one ,It never seemed to be very reliable to even work.I dont remember the brand name but it was one Picked up from Midway I think for around a 100 bucks or so and that was about 15 years ago .

What Kind of input is required from the user to be able to get the results that you have given me ?

Does it take long to use ?

It sounds like it is more usefull than a Chronograph ?

Thank's

[Hick]

[QUOTE=bcraig;5650378]Hi
While I do appreciate the concern I have already cross referenced the You tube video with Brian Pierces 44 special article in Handloader Magazine, August -September 2005 in which he discusses the 3 Loading levels of the 44 special .

Excellent-- you did the right thing-- it just wasn't obvious from your first post.

Enjoy
Hick

[bcraig]

[QUOTE=bcraig;5650378]Hi
While I do appreciate the concern I have already cross referenced the You tube video with Brian Pierces 44 special article in Handloader Magazine, August -September 2005 in which he discusses the 3 Loading levels of the 44 special .

Excellent-- you did the right thing-- it just wasn't obvious from your first post.

Enjoy
Hick

Why Thankee for the praise.

Probably the Mention of a Youtube poster that threw you into Assuming that I should be told ,that basically no one should believe everything that is written on the Internet.
Which is by and large true.

Yep ,enjoying it already ,Even though I have not loaded the first round for this Rossi 92 Carbine or 44 Special yet.

I have reloaded for 44 magnum,357 Magnum,38 Special Pistol rounds,7mm Magnum,25-06,300 Weatherby,8x57 Mauser Rifle rounds over the years, but the Rossi 92 Carbine along with the 44 Special round is a first for me and really looking forward to it.

[P Flados]

Quickload is not cheap and can be a challenge to "get comfortable" with.

Sometimes it is right on the money, other times not so much. Right now, nobody seems to be able to get reasonable results for the 360 Buckhammer, with AA 1680 powder being way off.

Where it does shine is in figuring out the expected change in performance when you need to adjust parameters a little from good published data. It also can be very helpful when doing weird workups when used along with taking Chrono data.

Unless you are a real "gun nerd" or you have special applications, I see it as kind of hard to justify the cost or effort to get up to speed.

[Milky Duck]

well this thread looks like as good of place to hijack as anywhere else.
on hand I have small quantity of lilgun AP30/AS30 AP50/AS50 and trail boss
Ive been loading .44 magnum for friend to use in ruger rifle..for bailed pigs using cast with varied results...got an absolute hammer of a load sorted 212grn PC flat nose pure lead with 21grns of lilgun
but mate wanted hollow points....I tired of the cast ones I can purchase due to poor quality control
so purchased a good quantity of 180grn jacketed hornady XTP.....
now to work up a load for them using powders at hand.
there IS published data for cast 260-270-280grn cast with 6grns of the above AP/AS powders (ADI shotgun/pistol) but cant find it for 180grn jacketed
my thinking is......
the jacketed should be higher pressure =BAD
but lower projectile weight=GOOD
dont need high velocity..somewhere 11-1300fps would seem to be the idea balance enough to penertrate well and expand enough to stop over penertration
going with lighter projectile weight SHOULD help with that too.

can anyone tell me if this thinking is good...does 6-7grns of shotgun powder seem right OK with a 180grn jacketed or am I better off to use trailboss or lilgun.

[TurnipEaterDown]

700x seems to be "slower" than AS30N by a chart I have, but faster than the AS50N -- Old Tan colored IMR guide lists up to 10 gr 700X on a 200 gr Speer Jacketed HP.
I loaded 5.5 - 8.5 gr 700x on cast 200 gr SWC in 44 Rem Mag, for safe results by all indications (did not chrono). Wasn't trying for speed - just a cheap 'popper' load.

Maybe this little bit of info helps you.

[P Flados]

well this thread looks like as good of place to hijack as anywhere else.
on hand I have small quantity of lilgun AP30/AS30 AP50/AS50 and trail boss
Ive been loading .44 magnum for friend to use in ruger rifle..for bailed pigs using cast with varied results...got an absolute hammer of a load sorted 212grn PC flat nose pure lead with 21grns of lilgun
but mate wanted hollow points....I tired of the cast ones I can purchase due to poor quality control
so purchased a good quantity of 180grn jacketed hornady XTP.....
now to work up a load for them using powders at hand.
there IS published data for cast 260-270-280grn cast with 6grns of the above AP/AS powders (ADI shotgun/pistol) but cant find it for 180grn jacketed
my thinking is......
the jacketed should be higher pressure =BAD
but lower projectile weight=GOOD
dont need high velocity..somewhere 11-1300fps would seem to be the idea balance enough to penertrate well and expand enough to stop over penertration
going with lighter projectile weight SHOULD help with that too.

can anyone tell me if this thinking is good...does 6-7grns of shotgun powder seem right OK with a 180grn jacketed or am I better off to use trailboss or lilgun.

At http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/powder-equivalents/ AS 30N is shown as close to Red Dot, Clays, Nitro 100.

The AS50N is shown as close to Green Dot, 700x, AA2. AP 50N is shown as close to W231/HP38

I did find a load for 185 GR. LRNFP CAST using AS30N. Starting 4.2 grain 839 fps 8900 cup Maximum 6.0 grain 1043 fps 18400 cup

The pressure on the above is well below the limit such that substituting jacket for cast should not be an issue.

For a 1300 fps load, the slower powder might make more sense. However, using 2005 Alliant data, both Red Dot (10.0 gr) and Green Dot (11.3 gr) were listed for a 180 JHC with handgun velocities over 1400 fps.

[P Flados]

From the previous post, it seems like the ADI powders will do 1300 fps from a rifle just fine. Exact charge is hard to predict.

Here is a list of predictions for similar powders from a 16" gun. Note that all predicted pressures are well below max.



Cartridge : .44 Rem. Mag. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .430, 180, Hornady HP/XTP 44050
Useable Case Capaci: 29.151 grain H2O = 1.893 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch = 40.39 mm
Barrel Length : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps or 396 m/s
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate Nitro 100 49.1 6.9 0.45 1300 100.0 16316 1006 1.407
Alliant RED DOT 53.1 7.1 0.46 1300 100.0 17407 978 1.400
Alliant GREEN DOT 50.3 7.5 0.49 1300 100.0 15912 1009 1.427
Hodgdon Clays 55.6 7.2 0.46 1300 100.0 23213 887 1.310
Winchester 231 40.4 8.2 0.53 1300 100.0 14669 1047 1.450
Hodgdon HP38 36.2 8.1 0.53 1300 100.0 15022 1032 1.441
IMR TrailBoss 110.7 10.0 0.65 1300 100.0 18165 941 1.393
Accurate No.2 46.3 8.2 0.53 1300 99.9 12919 1209 1.494

[Milky Duck]

thanks guys....gives me something to chew over...

[Milky Duck]

indeed looking at the pressures predicted that looks very feasible .
if I assume the powders I have from ADI do indeed fall inbetween green n red dot (everything Ive read seems to suggest this) a charge of 7.5grns looks like could be "right on the money honey" and sure as heck wont be too hot. with alliant data or 10grns-13grns for them respectively being a safe top end,I could use 10grns as absolute max with some degree of certainty.
THANKYOU all for help on this one...when get around to loading and using some I will be sure to report back..might be awhile as mate is using 1 round per bailed boar .....

[Cane_man]

all things the same but heavier bullet would require less powder

imo Quickload is worth the time and money, but only if you are analytical and can dive into the program and understand the interactions of all the different variables