Seating stem for soft Lead Hollowpoint 44 Special?

[bcraig]

I bought some of Matt's Bullets to Load in 44 special .
They are the 250 Grain Hollowpoint Plainbase that has a Big Hollowpoint ,Basically the same bullet as a Lyman .429640 but Plainbase and I ordered mine in .432
The Bullets I am told are 20:1 and I noticed when making up a few dummy round's that first off the Expander on the Lee 3 die set that I have that the case expander was not opening the case enough or deep enough so I will be ordering a larger one to solve that problem.

I also Noticed that the seating stem is making the Hollow point smaller as Pressure is applied to start seating the bullet.
I figure that at least some of this is caused by the expansion on the cases not being enough and when I get the new case expander a lot of that may go away.

However I may decide to go with an even softer lead hollowpoint say a 40:1 or may even try just a so called pure lead bullet.

I would like to know how yall modify the seating stem from a round nose to a round nose Flat Hollow point bullet shape ?

I remember Modifying the seating stem on another set of dies 30 Plus years ago for use with Bullets I cast from an LBT WFN mold ,I think I remember that I used some form of JB weld(either the putty or the regular JB)and the bullets were much harder(Water dropped clip on wheelweight's)But dont know if that Modification for the flatpoints will work for the soft Hollowpoint's .

I bought these bullet's for the Huge HollowPoint and so dont want the seating of it to lessen the size or shape of the Hollowpoint as I want all the expansion I can get at the 900 to 1,000 FPS that I will be shooting them from my Rossi 92 16 inch Carbines Barrel.

[Bazoo]

I modify my seating stems to be just a flat punch for such applications if I don't have a SWC plug that's suitably large. Filling the nose ith JBWeld would work just fine, as will facing it off square.

In a pinch, I've faced them by spinning in a drill and using the dremel tool against them.

[bcraig]

Thank's
I have some JB around the House and will do that this weekend.
By the way I have looked at The BulletMatch and it is very informative.

[Bazoo]

Thank's
I have some JB around the House and will do that this weekend.
By the way I have looked at The BulletMatch and it is very informative.

Thanks.

[jsizemore]

My RCBS seating die comes with round and flat seating stems. I think I got a Lyman set that does the same thing.

[Bazoo]

I've called down the RCBS and asked for some help in getting a seating stem to fit some bullets I had. They sent me 3-4 stems, everything they had that would be close to get me going.

I also have contacted Lyman with the similar requests, they didn't sent me what I needed, which was a #8 top punch for 30-30 dies, but they sent the #465 round nose, that I converted to flat quickly enough.

[Winger Ed.]

I will be ordering a larger one to solve that problem..

This, along with a flat top seating stem should cure all your problems.... well, at least with seating that boolit anyway.

[Milky Duck]

at a pinch..the flare die has a flat that COULD be used to poke boolit into position....maybe???

[bcraig]

Thank's to all
I appreciate it

[country gent]

Several ways to do this and something to look at.

1) a flat punch may help but under heavy seating pressure may still deform some.
2 JB weld will make a fitted punch easily. If you dont want the hollow point deformed then make the new stem with a plug to fill the hollow point. Be sure to coat the bullet with
several coats of release agent. Wax or similar. Some of the newer epoxies will bond thru oil and grease based release agents.
3) Look at the hollow points as seated now. Is the whole hollow point closed or just the top edge. Just the top edge may be a "plus"as this might help keep it from plugging up and not expanding. I believe speer made a bullet where the base of the hollow point was bigger than the opening for this reason

[bcraig]

Several ways to do this and something to look at.

1) a flat punch may help but under heavy seating pressure may still deform some.
2 JB weld will make a fitted punch easily. If you dont want the hollow point deformed then make the new stem with a plug to fill the hollow point. Be sure to coat the bullet with
several coats of release agent. Wax or similar. Some of the newer epoxies will bond thru oil and grease based release agents.
3) Look at the hollow points as seated now. Is the whole hollow point closed or just the top edge. Just the top edge may be a "plus"as this might help keep it from plugging up and not expanding. I believe speer made a bullet where the base of the hollow point was bigger than the opening for this reason

No, the hollow is not closed completely,I did not measure with the mic but I can see that is flattened somewhat.
As far as hollowpoint bullet design think of the Lyman Devastor in Plainbase instead of being gas checked.

From what I understand the 250 Grain with 20:1 alloy will be about 10 Brinell hardness and will give good expansion at around 850 FPS-950 FPS or so depending on target medium and will fragment the nose from the same alloy at around 1,000 or so when shot into a tough Medium such as paper catalogs or phonebooks then continue to mushroom some much like A Nosler bullet Performs.
Since I wanted a bullet and load that would give low recoil and good expansion at about 850-950 no more than a 1,000 fps I think that it will work for my purposes.

[45DUDE]

When I run into a fat nose I use a drill and pointed grind stone to open up the stem=then order a replacement. I cast my 44 boolits at .436 and size .432 for the throat size. It depends on the gun what I size for. You should be able to screw the die down more and bell more and the .432 should work. Maybe see if one will seat without resizing and give a good roll crimp if using in the same gun.

[bcraig]

When I run into a fat nose I use a drill and pointed grind stone to open up the stem=then order a replacement. I cast my 44 boolits at .436 and size .432 for the throat size. It depends on the gun what I size for. You should be able to screw the die down more and bell more and the .432 should work. Maybe see if one will seat without resizing and give a good roll crimp if using in the same gun.


No, it will not come anywhere close to seating straight from the rifle.
Just sits on top of the case without coming even remotely close enough to seating.
It will bell enough to get the bullet started in the case with a chamfering but the flare is at a very steep angle and will not go deep enough to be able to seat the .432 10 Brinell hardness bullet into the case without shaving the bullet..

[45DUDE]

No, it will not come anywhere close to seating straight from the rifle.
Just sits on top of the case without coming even remotely close enough to seating.
It will bell enough to get the bullet started in the case with a chamfering but the flare is at a very steep angle and will not go deep enough to be able to seat the .432 10 Brinell hardness bullet into the case without shaving the bullet..

Have you slugged your barre? I use Dillon dies. I Have some spare RCBS presses and think I have some RCBS dies and will see what they do with a .432 flat base boolit. I have 185-310 gr. boolits. You may have a die problem. I do use a little car wax when I tumble the cases that makes for smoother loading.

[bcraig]

I use Dillon dies. I think I have some RCBS and will see what they do with a .432 flat base boolit. I have 185-310 gr. boolits. You may have a die problem. I do use a little car wax when I tumble the cases that makes for smoother loading.

I am using Lee 3 die 44 Special/44 Magnum dies,I think the only die problem I have is that the bullet flaring or bullet case belling is designed to bell the case enough for a .429 to a .430 Hard Jacketed bullet to be seated and not a relatively Soft Cast Lead bullit that is .432 .
Hard to Imagine a Case flaring of only .429-.430 being able to seat a soft cast 250 Grain bullet of .432 deep enough without shaving some of the bullet.

But I am going to get a Noe 430-434 I mean a 434-430 case expander Plug that I will be using for the Matts Bullets .432 Hollowpoint 250 Grain Hollowpoint.
To see if that will expand the case enough and deep enough to properly seat the the soft lead bullets without shaving the bullets.

[Wayne Smith]

Yup, that expander should solve your problem - and if you have a slight rounding of the HP consider if that will assist in loading as well. I'm guessing also that that slight rounding may cause the rim to collapse into the hollowpoint upon impact and expanding, perhaps increasing penetration slightly.

[45DUDE]

I just picked up a hand full of fired 44 brass. I can easy push a .432 boolit in with my finger. I checked the flair on my brass using my Dillon and it's .436 at the mouth.

[bcraig]

I dont know what to tell you other than that will absolutely not work in my situation.
I suppose there could be a lot of maybe's.

I am using 1 fired brass from My Rossi 92 chamber,
The brass is Starline 44 brass ,I dont know what the case wall thickness is,Maybe that has something to do with it.
Or that the Ammo was only loaded By HSM to about 850 FPS from their Revolve with I believe was a 5.5 inch barrel which maybe did not present enough Pressure to to really enlarge the case,dont know what the dimeter of bullets that they loaded were ,Maybe they sized their brass on the small side ?

I do know that a case is too small unless I put a pretty good belling and a a good chamfer on the case before the .432 bullet will start to seat in the case as a matter of fact I opened up the belling on the case so much that it would barely fit inside the seating die.

Was the 44 fired brass that you used to easily put the .432 bullet brass that had been full length from your gun ?
Was it fired from from a Rifle or Pistol? Could it have been fired with a High pressure load from an oversize shamber to stack tolerances to the upper end of fired case dimensions to easilly accept a .432 bullet?

All I know for a fact is that I am unable to seat a .432 soft lead bullet completley inside of my cases without shaving some lead.
off in the process .

When you say that your flare is at .436 and you are able to seat the .432 bullet by hand do you mean that you are able to seat about 1/8 into the case to start the bullet into the case and then to seat the bullet all the way using the press ?

Surely you are not able to easily push the the bullet all the way into the case by merely using easy Pressure from just your finger then just crimp the bullet ?

[Wayne Smith]

If that was a fired and unsized case of course you can. If it is a sized case, check your sizer.

[45DUDE]

I can push the .432 boolit flush with fired brass.<NO SIZING> Brass is from my Marlin Carbine-29-2 and SRH.

[W.R.Buchanan]

A Flat Nosed Punch should work . That boolit is the Lyman Devastator Right?

If it was a SWC and you were having problems with closing up the HP, I say bore the nose punch out so it was just contacting the step on the SWC's Base.

Could you post some pics of your boolits and cases so we can see what is going on?

Randy

[bcraig]

If that was a fired and unsized case of course you can. If it is a sized case, check your sizer.
I cant,Here are some images of bullits and cases and comparisons.
https://i.imgur.com/ltepAOJs.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/4vvsO5cs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7AWoR3ys.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/zkksQR0s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rcS2gwIs.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/ltepAOJs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qSbfnxIs.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Irc8frMs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zYlkwLws.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/NfXBMOFs.jpg


This is with a case directly from my Carbine without resizing and there is no way that the .432 bullet if is going to seat in the case with just finger pressure, even if belled and chamfered without a press and certainly will not seat by finger pressure.

Top 2 images Bullet and case and Just case ,Straight out of the Carbine
Next 2 Images of bullet's
Next 2 images are of The Bullets hollowpoint and a error of duplication
Next 2 images are of seated bullet hopefully showing shavings of .432 bullet right in the cannalure and where I used a rubber band to hold Seated bullet next to unseated bullet so it can be easily visualized how the round nosed seating stem is Closing up the hollowpoint .
Bottom 2 images are of an inverted bullet in case and other image shows bullet ballanced sitting on top of the 44 special case taken right out of the rifle unsized.

Nope ,there aint going to be any pushing the bullet down into the case easily with finger pressure ,much less being able to push in flush with the finger !

By the way is see the images are a little small and I do not know how to make them bigger now that they are up.
Can anyone tell me How I an make the images bigger for better ease of seeing ?

[Milky Duck]

so maybe??? youve got a tight chamber in gun...and loosish casting mold.....eg the specs of each are good but at opposite ends of the spectrum.... chuck your fancypants measuring stick/micrometer at both and the answer will leap out at you....Ive found loading some purchased cast in .44 magnum a right PIA and others dead easy.... possibly your solution will be as simple as a correct sizing die to swage/squeaze the cast boolit down to a size that suits your guns....

[Bazoo]

I use postimages for image hosting. It works easy enough.

It does sound like you have a pretty tight chambered gun. If that's the case, consider yourself darn lucky.

[bcraig]

so maybe??? youve got a tight chamber in gun...and loosish casting mold.....eg the specs of each are good but at opposite ends of the spectrum.... chuck your fancypants measuring stick/micrometer at both and the answer will leap out at you....Ive found loading some purchased cast in .44 magnum a right PIA and others dead easy.... possibly your solution will be as simple as a correct sizing die to swage/squeaze the cast boolit down to a size that suits your guns....

My Fancu Pant Measuring stick/Micrometer told me that I needed a .432 bullet after I took my Fancy Hammer and fancy pure lead bullet and drove it through the Bore and Measure the Lands .
The bullets do not need to be sized as the Matt's Bullets size them Larger than the Lands measurement that I took which was a Little less than .431 so I dont think I want to be shooting smaller bullet's than .432 and feel like .432 bullets will suit my Gun.

Without having to throw anything at the Issue ,although it could be other things ,I feel like I have been trying to put a bullet of .432 into a case that is more than likely .429-.430.
Cant figure out how to do that without either shaving lead down or Making the Hole bigger in the case.
Probably just by using a case expansion Plug so the case will allow the the Bigger bullet to seat easier and deeper.

IF I knew what the case wall thickness of 44 Special Starline Brass is I wo
uld betterknow what the issue is.

[bcraig]

I use postimages for image hosting. It works easy enough.

It does sound like you have a pretty tight chambered gun. If that's the case, consider yourself darn lucky.

That would be nice.

[bcraig]

That would be nice.

Been a while since I used imgur and didn't remember which size to go with.

I do remember that whatever size I used last time would take a third of the page and wanted to make sure I did not do that again.
Next time I will just try original size so they wont appear so tiny!

I am sure there has got to be a way to make the existing images bigger but I sure dont know how to do it!!

Maybe there will somebody that will read this and tell me how to do it.

[Bazoo]

If your groove is less than .431... you'd probably be just fine using a .431 bullet.

My Winchester 92 44 Magnum measures .4302 across the largest section (smaller than .430 across the other two sections) and I use .430 sized bullets without any issue. Granted I've not experimented significantly with it, but my 44 special loads using .430 sized RCBS 44-250-K shot clean as a whistle, and of course so did the gas checked bullets I had on hand sized .430.

The point is, (not trying to say you shouldn't use .432 bullets) if you happen across some .431 bullets, don't turn them down, they might work just dandy for you.

[Milky Duck]

My Fancu Pant Measuring stick/Micrometer told me that I needed a .432 bullet after I took my Fancy Hammer and fancy pure lead bullet and drove it through the Bore and Measure the Lands .
The bullets do not need to be sized as the Matt's Bullets size them Larger than the Lands measurement that I took which was a Little less than .431 so I dont think I want to be shooting smaller bullet's than .432 and feel like .432 bullets will suit my Gun.

Without having to throw anything at the Issue ,although it could be other things ,I feel like I have been trying to put a bullet of .432 into a case that is more than likely .429-.430.
Cant figure out how to do that without either shaving lead down or Making the Hole bigger in the case.
Probably just by using a case expansion Plug so the case will allow the the Bigger bullet to seat easier and deeper.

IF I knew what the case wall thickness of 44 Special Starline Brass is I wo
uld betterknow what the issue is.

in theory the wall thickness doesnt matter as your expander plug works on inside of it..not the outside.
had really left field thought while waiting for trout to play ball this afternoon(trout didnt only an unwanted eel) see if a 6mm plastic airsoft pellet will sit inside the nose cavity of the boolit..... just for seating.... the seater will be pushing in pellet that should ,if it drops by any amount into cavity,be pushing on inside of cavity instead of the lips.....
see what you mean re not wanting to squeaze boolit smaller....so yeah your only option is making the hole in case bigger.... fine line indeed.

[bcraig]

I got the .434-.430 powder through expander Plug from Noe and after changing out the Factory Lee ExpanderPlug with the Noe Parts and setting it up with a few tweeks to the Lee die I have the cases where they will seat a bullet by hand in the case,no problems with the case being too small for the .432 Bullet.
Also filled the Bullet seating stem with JB Steel Putty to make it a flat instead of a rounded bullet profile so that issue is solved as well.