PDA

View Full Version : .45 ACP Final Sizing Problem



rebliss
01-23-2006, 11:08 PM
Howdy All,

I'm running into a problem with my .45 ACP loads.

I'm running a Dillon 550B with Dillon dies. I'm loading cast Lee 190 gr LSWC sized to .452 and lubed with Orange Magic. The problem is when I run each finished round through my Dillon case gauge, about 10% drop right in, 40% will fully seat with a slight push, 40% won't seat past the extractor groove, and the last 10% stick well above the groove.

I was thinking that maybe I was using 'Glocked' brass, but after dropping my empty brass into the case gauge, I realized that wasn't the problem.

Incidentally, the first 90% of my bullets load and shoot just fine, but my last 10% wind up embarassing me when my gun won't go into battery at the range.

Today I ordered a .451 sizing die, but now I'm wondering if I'm not just throwing unnecessary money at the problem.

Can anyone see where I might be going wrong with my setup or procedure? Would a Lee Factory Crimp die help me out? (Those are full-length sizers as well, aren't they?) I'm about at my wits' end. I'd appeciate any help I can get.

Thanks,
Rob

D.Mack
01-23-2006, 11:49 PM
rebliss Just a thought, could your 10 % be just slightly longer than the others, so that when you roll crimp them, they slightly bulge the case just below the crimp? A micrometer should tell what is out of spec, but I have used Motor Mica, (aluminum oxide) to coat the brass and bullets, then drop them in the chamber, and remove, and look to see where the motor mica got rubbed off. DM

trooperdan
01-24-2006, 12:00 AM
Get the Lee sizer and you'll never regret it! I wouldn't change your bullet sizer from the .452 yet; give the Lee a try, you will like it!

45 2.1
01-24-2006, 08:07 AM
Measure a factory round versus your loaded rounds and compare. Adjust your dies until both are about the same. Your problem sounds like your dies aren't adjusted properly.

danski26
01-24-2006, 01:41 PM
You are taper crimping those 45 acp right? Any kind of roll crimp will give you problems like you are describing.

rebliss
01-24-2006, 01:59 PM
I like the motor mica idea to check what part is binding.

Looking at Factory Ammo, the case walls are of a pretty uniform diameter all the way down. Looking at one of mine, sometimes you can visibly see where the bullet is 'inside' the brass, but not always.

Here are some measurements I took, but am not sure if these will help analyze my problem:

Factory Ammo measures .4695 inches at the case mouth

One of my 'Good' 40% measures .4720 inches

One of my 'Mediocre' 40% measures .4740 inches

One of my 'Bad' 10% measures .4740 as well.

Factory Ammo just above the extraction groove measures .4740 inches

Good 40% measures .4755 inches

Mediocre 40% measures .4720 inches

Bad 10% measures .4740 inches

Case length for all is .8885

This may be significant: At the crimp (as close as I can measure) I'm getting a difference of approximately .002 inches between the crimp and down about 1/8 inch on my 'Bad' rounds. Do I have my crimp die turned down too far, and it's causing a 'belling' as D.Mack suggested? I'll see if by adjusting that die I can alleviate that 'belling.'

Thanks for the help; I'll post a follow-up when I can.

StarMetal
01-24-2006, 04:28 PM
You fellows that say anykind of roll crimp will give trouble don't know what you are talking about. There are alot of people roll crimping. Harris of the NRA did an article on crimping 45 acp's in the NRA Cast Bullet book. His preferred crimp was a roll crimp that rolled the mouth in apprx. .020 if I remember correctly. I've been roll crimping for nearly 40 years...WITH NO PROBLEMS at all out of way too many guns to list. Any type of crimp done improper with give problems...so get off the bandwagon that roll crimp is bad and the taper crimp is the the greatest things since sliced bread.

I say part of the problem are the dies and/or improper adjustment of the dies.

Another thing I resent is Glocked brass....there isn't any such thing in 45acp, may be in 40 S&W because that really is Glocks problem caliber. Unless a firearm excessively causes a really bad bulge at the case web it can't hurt that brass and once it's resized in a good resizing dies it's back to be as normal as a case fired from any other brand of firearm. I have a Glock 45acp and shoots great, it doesn't lead the barrel, and it doesn't ruin my brass. The only thing different about it is the firing pin indent in the primer isn't round because the Glock doesn't have a round firing pin.

Okay, I'm done ranting.

Joe

KS1911
01-24-2006, 06:10 PM
Howdy All,

I'm running into a problem with my .45 ACP loads.

I'm running a Dillon 550B with Dillon dies. I'm loading cast Lee 190 gr LSWC sized to .452 and lubed with Orange Magic. The problem is when I run each finished round through my Dillon case gauge, about 10% drop right in, 40% will fully seat with a slight push, 40% won't seat past the extractor groove, and the last 10% stick well above the groove.

IRob


Rob,
I use the same press and dies as you. I also had the exact same problem. The solution is to turn your sizing die down alittle more. If that doesn't solve it, then seat your bullet just a hair deeper. The problem is in the set-up not the dies.
Also, make sure your dies are tight in the tool head.

Another note on your dies, the belling adjustment on station 2 doesn't have to be very much at all, barely enough to just notice.

Hope this helps,
Kelley

slughammer
01-24-2006, 08:34 PM
If you have the old single stage and a set of dies, you can size 100 cases with the single stage first and then run them on the 550. That would rule out or isolate the problem as size die related.

Otherwise back off your crimp slightly, and make sure your shell plate is tight enough on the press.

rbwillnj
01-24-2006, 08:59 PM
KS1911 has the right idea. I have seen this problem at the range a number of times, and it almost always turns out that the sizing die is not properly adjusted. The sizing die is the first die to set up, and it should be adjusted so that it is as close to the shell plate as you can get it without touching.

If that doesn't do the trick, than I would go next with the tooo heavy a crimp. I think roll crimping a 45 ACP is nuts, but roll or taper, if you crimp it down to hard, you can get a bulge in the brass just below the base of the bullet, and that can cause problems with rounds not chambering fully, but usually, its all the rounds, not just some of them.

I'm a big fan of Lee Factory Crimp Dies, but its better to eliminate the root cause of the problem than just find a way to fix it after the fact.....which a Lee FCD will do.

danski26
01-24-2006, 09:03 PM
Starmetal

How does a case that headspaces on the case mouth work when you roll the case mouth over into a roll crimp? What does it headspace on? "and don't say the extractor"

Also how do you roll crimp on jacketed boolits with no groove? Like the 185 gr swc I use?

When I first started handloading I could not get my 45's to work well in my 1911. I called hornady and the tech guy told me to taper crimp. I have not had a problem since. Lyman's manual says to taper crimp right in it. Hornady says "little or no crimp" in the manual.

There may be other ways to do it but TAPER CRIMPING WORKS on the 45 acp!

StarMetal
01-24-2006, 10:19 PM
With jacketed you really only need to take the flare out of the case mouth, that is if you put one there, I do to ease the bullet entry.

We went over this what the 45acp headspaces on. You ask me what my 45's head space on if I roll crimp them. Well I ask you what do your 45's head space on if you taper crimp them becaue they sure as hell aren't head spacing on the case mouth. How so you ask. Well if you look in the books the length of a 45 acp case is suppose to be .898 and we found out that rebliss's cases aren't, that there were .8885. Know why? Becasue hardly any of us have found a 45 acp that was indeed .898, but the chambers are cut for it. So you tell me what your tapercrimped 45's are headspacing on. I'll give you a clue or two....the bullet shoulder in the leade and extractor because the firing pin on a 1911 has a mighty long reach.

Joe

danski26
01-25-2006, 02:38 PM
Starmetal

I had never looked into this debate much. What you said seemed reasonable. I am all about the pepsi challange though.

I took 2 pieces of empty brass. Both .886 inches long. "first two I grabbed out of the bucket" I took apart my 1911. I grinded the rim off of one of the cases. Put both cases into the barrel, one at a time :-). They both headspaced on the case mouth. They where both the same distance from the breach end of the barrel.

Then I took the slide and put the barrel into it. With the rim removed the base of the cartridge is just off the face off the slide. Maybe .001 off. The cartrige with the rim still on had the same space off the face but you could see daylight btween the rim and the extracter. Maybe .005 or so.

Charlie Petty came to this same conclusion after thinking the 45 headspaced on the extractor for most of his life. He wrote an article about it, I think in Handloader mag.

At .886 in my barrel the 45 acp headspaces on the case mouth. Probably would up to .880 or so.

We kinda highjacked this thread though. I'm not trying to convince you to use a taper crimp. Sounds like you do just fine without it. Rebliss asked for advice on how to solve his problem. I belive that if he taper crimps, the problem will be solved.

Rebliss......give it a try and tell us how it works.

StarMetal
01-25-2006, 02:55 PM
danski26

That's some pretty good information. But do this. Take those rimless cases and load them with a couple different styles of cast bullets. Most reloading manuals will tell you that , for example a 200 gr swc, should be seated so that about 1/32th of an inch is exposed from the case mouth. Then drop them into the barrel and tell me what you get.

Joe

rebliss
01-25-2006, 03:13 PM
Y'all have certainly given me some good information. I've learned quite a bit already.

I'm out of town right now, but can't wait to fix my setup when I get home. I'm going to seat the SWCs a little deeper so there's less shoulder protruding from the mouth, and will back off my crimp die to prevent the roll crimp from occurring.

I'll check the forum again before starting, and post the results.

Thanks!

waksupi
01-25-2006, 08:47 PM
I was having a similar problem some time back, and the guys here helped me out. Actually, my loads were getting a ring of lead occasionally sheared from the bullet. The solution to this was, screw the die body out, seat the bullet, and then go back, screw down the body, and crimp. You might try this on a few, and see if this will help.

StarMetal
01-25-2006, 08:55 PM
oh yeah Ric, you were seating and crimping in the same stage. Yeah, I've had that happen. Funny some calibers and bullets I can do that, but others sometimes have to do what you did.

Joe

robertbank
01-25-2006, 09:43 PM
Starmetal I respect your opinion and right to it but the .45acp cartridge does headspace off the mouth and while roll crimps work for you I suggest with a great deal of respect that you are being less than responsible to suggest to a new reloader to roll crimp this cartridge. You know better. Please don't respond by telling us a number of war stories, new loaders ought to go by the book. They have their whole lifetime to blow their hands off or blind themselves with their own mistakes.

The advice to ensure the re-sizing die is set as low as possible will likely solve his problem. I had that happen to me with some 9MM cases (1,000) of the darn things before I noticed the problem.

Stay Safe

StarMetal
01-25-2006, 10:16 PM
Mr robertbank,

I know the 45acp was DESIGNED to headspace off the mouth. The tech dimensions for the case lenght is .898 inch. You won't find many cases that are that. If the chamber is cut to that spec and the cases are all short, yeah, they'll headspace on the mouths if the bullet doesn't prevent them from doing so, because there is enough tolerance in the extractor to let that case move forward enough and the firing pin has enough reach to hit the primer to set it off. When the case is properly headspaced the head of the case should be flush with the hood tang face and if the cases are short it will not headspace even with the hood tang. How damn stupid you think I am, I'm just saying that in most instances the case mouth isn't touching that ledge inside the chamber cut for it to butt up against. Most automatic cartridges were designed to headspace off the mouth except for some example the 38 super (which now that has been changed to headspace off the mouth) the 32 acp which headspaces off the rim, 30 Luger with headspaces off the shoulder because it's bottlenecked.

What the hell are you talking about go refer to war stories, what the hell does that have to do with reloading the 45acp? I see nowhere where any of my suggestions on this thread would suggest a possibility of blowing your hands off or hurting your eyes.

I don't respect your opinion if you're apparantly convinced I didn't know the 45acp headspaces off the case mouth.

Joe

StarMetal
01-25-2006, 10:42 PM
Mr Banks,

Here are three 45acp cases chambered in a match Clark barrel. One is a loaded Israeli IMI 230 gr hardball, the other a Remington empty case, and the third a WCC (Winchester) empty case. The case on the IMI measures .895, so did the Remington, and the WCC was shorter then .895. Where's that .898 at Mr. Banks that the cases are suppose to be. As you can see they all fall short of headspace propertly, that is flush with the hood tang.

I suppose we'll get a Jimmy Clark doesn't know how to cut a 45 acp chamber huh?

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385acp.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385acp1.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385acp2.JPG

BruceB
01-25-2006, 10:57 PM
The very first cartridge I ever loaded was the .45 ACP, and this was in the winter of 1966....a few months back.

My equipment, once I got things sorted out, was pretty much among the best of the day, with the dies being from RCBS....and my carbide sizer was REALLY new-fangled at the time.

There was NO SUCH THING as a taper-crimp die in the RCBS catalog in those days, and all the cases were roll-crimped. My loads were adjusted (as Joe described, with the base even with the barrel hood) by setting the seating depth of the bullet so that when the bullet met the lands, the casehead was flush with the hood. This applied with the 452374 round-nose, the button-nosed 452389, and the 452460 SWC. Considering my handloading-greenhorn status of forty years ago, the results in our 1911s were very good indeed.

Anyone who chooses to call this information "war stories" has his head firmly implanted in the sand, and is refusing to consider valid information from folks who've been doing this for decades. I now use taper-crimp dies, but I also KNOW that my pistols will work, and work well, with roll-crimped rounds. My guns of that day gobbled up thousands of them with great glee. Hmmm...I may even have that old set of dies buried in the dreck out in my loading shed. I think I'll have a peek tomorrow.

Without getting into the "Where does it headspace?" argument, I will just say the following: To this very day, forty years later, I load the .45/1911 to headspace just as I did then, with an interference fit of the bullet against the rifling origin which positions the casehead flush with the hood. Rounds loaded this way, i.e.: for my 1911s, work well in my SIG 220, too. Excellent accuracy and perfect function would seem to be ample reason not to change.

StarMetal
01-25-2006, 11:07 PM
Bruce,

I'm still using my original RCBS dies. I like the old dies because the sizer actually sizes the case with the taper that is was designed to have. I have a titanium set for the 45acp from Hornady but the box reads on the end 45acp, 45AR, and 45LC. Guess what, when I size the 45acps with them the bullets are loose because they don't size the case down far enough. I hate to tell Hornady but 45LC and 45acp get sized differently. So I still use my old lube sizer die from RCBS.

Thanks for the pitch in Bruce.

Joe

9.3X62AL
01-26-2006, 12:41 AM
After 38 Special and 357 Magnum, the 45 ACP is the round I've loaded most. I haven't been at it as long as Bruce, but I've put some hours in.

The RCBS Manual indicated to not roll crimp to excess when I started this caliber c.1980, so I just adjusted the roll crimp shoulder in the seating die to straighten out the flare. All went well, then I added a SEPARATE taper crimp die to the 45 ACP and 9mm about 15 years ago. I have absolute zero luck trying to seat bullets and taper crimp in one step, so I don't--its seat first, then either run the rounds through the taper crimp die or (in the case of 10mm/40 S&W) I re-set the seater die by backing off the seater stem and lowering the die body. Sizing dies can work very well as taper crimp dies in most calibers by removing the decapping stem and letting the case mouth "kiss" the die sufficiently to achieve the desired goal.

rbwillnj
01-26-2006, 12:54 AM
I hate to state the obvious, but if you roll crimp to just straighten out the flare, you are pretty much getting the same result as if you taper crimp. If you roll crimp to just straighten out the flare, the round will still be indexing on the case mouth.

So, I have no argument with that approach, but then it really doesn't matter if you roll or taper crimp, the effect is the same. But, if you roll to heavy, which is not that hard to do with a lead bullet, the round will not index on the case mouth, and IMHO that's BAD.

Of course, none of this really addressed the original question.

robertbank
01-26-2006, 12:38 PM
Which was my point exactly and your observations are bang on.

Starmetal - new loaders aren't as knowledgeable as you are and may not no the difference between a heavy roll crimp and just taking the bell off and straitening the case. Your "war" stories were interesting and I am glad you haven't hurt yourself over the many years of reloading - nice to see folks entering our hobby with a chance to be able to say that 30 years from now.

Do not roll crimp the .45acp cartridge, it doesn't need a roll crimp as the cartridge is designed to hold the bullet in with case friction. Removing the belling and crimping from .468 - .470 will do.

For those who reload the 9MM round just remove the belling.

One experience a thousand times is not a thousand experiences.

Stay Safe

BruceB
01-26-2006, 12:51 PM
Gents;

I hate to disabuse anyone's preconceptions, but I am not given to using the English language in a cavalier or inaccurate fashion.

When I stated that I used a "roll crimp", I MEANT that I was using a ROLL CRIMP. That is, the mouth of the case was CRIMPED into the bullet, not just "straightened out".

It wasn't a severe roll crimp, mind you, but the mouth of the case was most definitely turned into the bullet. Headspaced in the way I described earlier, by the bullet contacting the leade, this gave very good results.

Note too, that the security of a CAST bullet in a given load is considerably less than that of a jacketed bullet, due to the lube and hence less friction holding the bullet in place against the stresses of feeding. A roll crimp which turns the mouth into the bullet (and you do NOT need a crimping groove) offers much better resistance against bullet movement.

This is all pretty much a moot point for me nowadays, because I do use taper-crimp dies now, but roll crimping the .45 ACP DOES work, and there's often more than way to skin a feline.

StarMetal
01-26-2006, 01:36 PM
Boy ole Bruce and I think alot, but I guess all us reloading and shooters are kinda in the same boat on thinking to a degree.

Mr Banks, I meant exactly what Bruce said, I roll crimp lightly into the bullet. Bruce is very correct in that lead doesn't have as good grip in the case mouth as jacketed and he stated the reasons. He's dead on. The correct function of a 1911 is that bullet nose hits the feed ramp and bounces up into the chamber. Sometimes the nose also hits that chamber roof. Anyways hitting that feed ramp is the main reason it is important that the bullet is tight in the case mouth and doesn't get pushed back into the case deeper, as we know that can raise pressures dangerously, especially in rounds like the 9mm. Harris did a test with a 45acp barrel in a two rifle actions, the barrels were short and the actions were affixed on a heavy bed. He did no crimp, roll crimps, and taper crimps...and did them to all degrees, that is light, medium, to heavy. In his conclusion the proper roll crimp was superior. That proper roll crimp to him was rolling the mouth in .020 inch. I have this thing about taper crimp, since roll crimping works so great for me in 1911's, and that's that they taper the bullet too, I don't want to change my bullet one bit, main reason I don't taper crimp, plus the fact as I mentioned that roll crimping works great for me. Mr Harris went on to say that even that .020 inch roll crimp still headspaced on the that chamber ledge.

Now as to new reloaders......first, I would hope and assume that they are to a degree mechanical. I've known real good friends that were hunters and wanted to reload. One particular fellow, named Larry, wanted to get into reloading. Well I have known Larry for a long time, worked with him, fished and hunted with him. He's what I guess you would call accident prone, was always something happening to him at work. One day at home he pulled the radiator cap off a hot engine....yup you guessed it, severe burns to the chest and face and missed worked. He was kind of absent minded too. He had a really really bad tour in Vietnam also. I love the man dearly but I said "Larry, I'm not teaching you how to reload" Explained how it requires alot of attention and detail that he just didn't have. He understood. So back to the line where I said I assume that reloaders, even beginners, probably and should have some mechanical abilities. With that said, I'd want to know all I could know about reloading (which none of us do) to be successful as possible from the beginning. That's why I get deep into explaining things like the real truth about the 45acp headspacing on the case mouth. They asked the question first here...so if I stump them they are sure more the welcomed to ask me to explain whatever stumped them and I will.

Joe

slughammer
01-26-2006, 08:08 PM
I'd like to go on the record that my 45 acp headspaces on the boolit. When I started to reload I learned to remove the barrel and set OAL of the loaded round to make the case flush with the hood. (I learned this by reading). As long as it's short enough to fit the magazine and it cycles, THAT is the way to go.


Starmetal

Are you making reference to the article ".45 ACP Handload Accuracy" by Alton S. Dinan Jr. from the American Rifleman reprints in the Cast Bullets book put out from the NRA and Col. E. H. Harrison? (Page 32 in my edition)

StarMetal
01-26-2006, 08:22 PM
slughammer

To answer you question to me...yes.

Joe

slughammer
01-26-2006, 08:38 PM
slughammer

To answer you question to me...yes.

Joe

Darn, I was hoping there was another set of testing to read. There are a few things about the Dinan article that make me question if he was complete with his testing when it went to press.

Mainly Test No. 12 Lyman 45266, gave a 2.3" composite 30 round group (the best in the testing); but, for some reason this is the only test group cited with 45266.

Also he cites that the taper crimp was to .460 at (2) places in the article; twice in the table under type of crimp and once in the text where he says "The taper crimp reduces the mouth to the same diameter, ....". Standard for taper crimp is .469-.470 IIRC; no where near .460.

Edward429451
01-27-2006, 11:32 AM
I had the same problem awhile back. Same setup, Dillon 550, Dillon dies, Dillon case gauge, 45acp.

Some rounds would not go in the Dillon gauge. Taper crimp em down to where they would. Then I had problems with those rounds going past the headspace stop in the chamber and jamming into the rifling.

Some research indicated that the Dillon case gauges are cut to minimum saami standards, while most 45 chambers are cut to loose combat standards, thus allowing the casemouth edge to slip past the mark.

Solution? Set the case gauge aside, pull the barrel from the gun and use the barrel as a case gauge. I've not had a problem since.

Dunno if that is your problem. You could try it and see.

Whatcha shootin them in?

danski26
01-27-2006, 01:10 PM
Good info guys about using the boolit to take up all the variances in case lengths and put that case head against the breach face. I see where leaving the boolit out a bit farther than I had been will cause it to touch the rifling before the case mouth touchs the lip in the chamber. I had not been doing that. I will try it this summer and see if that improves the accuracy in my 1911 any.

rebliss
01-27-2006, 08:24 PM
Wow fellas, a bit more of a hornets' nest in here than when I last checked in!

Anyhow, I readjusted my seating and crimp dies today. I was only loading unprimed/powdered rounds to test for a completed round's ability to drop into the case gauge. It worked like a charm. I've come to the conclusion that I did indeed have the crimp die turned down WAY too far, causing a pretty substantial roll crimp to appear, creating the oversized mouth.

SO. I found what Edward had to say above interesting and logical about the 'combat' tolerances of most 1911s. That makes sense to me considering that although many of my rounds weren't a perfect fit inside the case gauge, they mostly fed fine in my Kimber Classic Custom.

I'm going to have to cast up a mess of boolits, because my last loading session only left me with a few dozen to try with my new set-up.

Sorry to get the battle started, but I certainly wanted to say thank you for a lot of great input from some very knowledgable people. It's nice to have a way to ask a question, and get sincere and valid help so quickly.

StarMetal
01-27-2006, 09:20 PM
Rebliss,

Like Clint Eastwood had a habit or style of talking in his movie Unforgiven I'll say "Don't go being too interested in what Edward said, kid" I say this because what follows is from Kimber's website:

Kimber pistols are throated to handle a wide variety of ammunition types and, like all quality 1911 pistols, prefer bullets with ogive shapes for which the pistol was designed. That's why the vast bulk of .45 ACP ammunition, both defensive and target, is full metal jacket (fmj) where the bullet contacts the feed ramp and bore, with a rounded profile.

The issue of feeding semi-wadcutters goes well beyond throating, however. Generally, semi-wadcutters are loaded-down 185 and 200 grain target loads at 750 fps or less. The loaded round is generally shorter, hits the feed ramp low, and is made of lead, which doesn't slide well and "smears". To counteract these tendencies, as a minimum, you'll need to address recoil spring weight (which impacts cycle time/duration, retained energy to chamber the next round as well as magazine spring weight (which impacts upward pressure and can create enough drag to impede feeding and extraction). Semi-wadcutters tend to feed better in 5 inch pistols than in shorter versions.

The overall length (oal) of the loaded semi-wadcutter may need to be adjusted to suit your pistol. Bullet selection is also critical as there are a huge variety of bullet shapes and casting hardnesses in the "semi-wadcutter" arena. Your grip style and ability to hold the pistol firmly through the firing cycle materially impact feeding reliability.

Your Kimber pistols are manufactured to extraordinarily tight tolerances, including the chamber dimensions. Often, semi-wadcutters are insufficiently taper crimped during the reloading process, causing feeding/function issues.

Again, there are a large number of variables involved in making a pistol feed a specific bullet type that was designed to be shot in revolvers. Semi-wadcutters can be made to function reliably in 1911 pistols, but some experimentation with the pistol, loads and shooting techniques may be necessary to achieve desired reliability.

Read especiall the next to that last paragraph that says Kimber's are manufactured to extraordinarily tight tolerances INCLUDING THE CHAMBER DIIMENSIONS. That means that the Kimber chamber isn't a LOOSE COMBAT CHAMBER as Edwards stated alot of 1911's have. Let me assure you that my chamber in my Clark match barrel sure as heck isn't a loose combat chamber and believe it or not one of the tightest 45acp chambers I have ever seen are in my Ruger Blackhawk extra 45acp cylinder for a single action revolver. Now let me tell you that I load my ammo as I have described in this thread, with a pretty good roll crimp and I have absolutely no problems in that Clark match barrel nor my tightass Ruger cylinder chambers.

Kind of brings us back to square one huh?

Joe

robertbank
01-27-2006, 10:54 PM
That's why the vast bulk of .45 ACP ammunition, both defensive and target, is full metal jacket (fmj) where the bullet contacts the feed ramp and bore, with a rounded profile.

Really, where do you get your stats from. The vast majority of IDPA/IPSC ammo I see going down range is LSWC or plated SWC. As to function in a 1911 my inexpensive Norincos eat LSWC's without a hitch as do my two Paras and my STI Trojan. From replies on the 1911 Forums few rely on the 230 gr FMJ boolits for self defense though I admit the boolits used generally have a round olgive.


For bear defense we load our 1911's with hardcast 200 gr LSWC a 1350 FPS using .45-08 cartridges. Better round to do damage to tissue than the RN FMJ boolits. Feeding is never an issue.

Stay Safe

35remington
01-27-2006, 11:48 PM
The LSWC's you're referring to are designed to duplicate hardball, in that the ramp/chamber contact points on the bullet en route to the chamber are identical to ball, which is why they're reliable feeders . They are long nosed SWC ball. My unmodified, unthroated 1911A1 feeds them like a champ. Calling them ball is not at all inaccurate. And Kimber is right when they say most .45's shoot ball.

Essentially, they're a modification of the H&G design. I think the SWC's Kimber and Starmetal were referring to are the shorter nosed SWC's for target shooting, and they clunk and bump their way into the chamber. A crimp can be beneficial in that instance. And I mean a roll crimp.

Ken O
01-27-2006, 11:50 PM
When I used a single stage press for .45acp, I could not get reliable ammo unless I seated and crimped in separate operations.
As for the headspacing debate, there have been tons of articles written about it, I am convinced that it headspaces off the extractor, so flame on.
My Dad always said: "The only way to get three farmers to agree on anything, is to shoot two of them", kind of like reloaders I guess....

robertbank
01-28-2006, 12:00 AM
I was referring to the H&G design. I am not aware of any boolit design similar to say a SWC found in the .38 cal, designed to be shot in a .45acp 1911. Like you my guns devour the things. I would not describe the H&G design to be a RN bullet though there is a rounded curve to the meplat.

I guess I have to go with the engineers and ballistic people who are quite certain the .45acp is designed to be headspaced off the mouth.

Stay Safe

35remington
01-28-2006, 12:11 AM
It is a RN in the .45 ACP, for all practical purposes. The contact points en route to the chamber on the H&G bullet and its clones are exactly where they would contact the bullet on ball if the two shapes could be overlaid upon the other.

There are quite a few target designs for the ACP that have shorter noses (reference almost all mould manufacturers) as bullseye shooting was/is still very popular. If you want a challenge, set up a 1911 to feed reliably with them. It can be done, but you've got to know what you're doing. Which leads guys to try things like roll crimping. I think the short nosed SWC's existed for .45 ACP target shooters many years before the H&G 68 became the darling of the combat shooters.

StarMetal
01-28-2006, 12:19 AM
Mr Banks,

We're past the headspacing issue. With the post from Kimber I was merely showing that the Kimber does not have a combat chamber, it has a chamber that is tigther. I was stating and advocating nothing about bullet designs either round nose, hardball, or swc. I don't know where you got the idea that I was. That section was in the Kimber post which I elected to post the whole thing that Kimber said. All my chambers in all my 45acps including a Glock, Ruger single action, Thompson semi-auto submachinegun, and a HK semi-auto submachine gun feed every bullet design I can feed them without a hitch. Most will even feed empty cases including the Thompson.

Kimber mentioned the jacketed ammo for defense and and target I believe to point out that their guns will handle just about anything both jacketed and lead, where as other manufacturers, especially of unmodified 1911 might not.

What did you mean by a 38 SWC? Did you mean with a very flat nose (metplat) or did you mean with a very short nose? Take a look at Lyman's 452488 and 452389. The 389 is an especially short nose. I have the 488 and I believe it's one of the most accurate, if not the most, I've ever shot.

Are we done?

Joe

KYCaster
01-28-2006, 01:08 AM
Rob: You didn't say what kind of brass you use, but from one of your comments I assume that you're using mixed head stamps. You said you can see the outline of the bullet inside the case on some rounds and not on others. I think that's because of different thickness of brass.( thicker the brass, the more pronounced the outline )

One of the problems with mixed brass is differing pressure required to size, seat and crimp. On a progressive press all these operations occur at the same time, so the pressure required to complete one stroke of the press can vary substantially. Dillon and Lee presses both have some slack and stretch in various parts and I think this can cause some inconsistency in the loaded rounds; the ram may not reach the same point from one cycle to the next because of the varying pressures required to size/crimp different brands of brass.

The usual method of adjusting the size die, (screw the die in till it contacts the shell plate, then back off a quarter turn) I think compounds the problem. I think the ram needs a positive stop so it always travels to the same point and not just stop when it can no longer overcome the pressure of sizing/crimping. To accomplish this, screw the die down till it contacts the shell plate, lower the ram and screw the die DOWN another quarter turn. Now the die will be in contact with the shell plate just as the linkage reaches its greatest leverage and will take up the slack and stretch with the ram instead of the brass. The result is much more uniform overall length and crimp.

One word of caution. Be advised that you can damage the Dillon 550 press by putting too much pressure on the shell plate, so be careful.


Second Comment: Dillon's 45ACP sizing dies size the case WAY undersize. That's why you can see the outline of the bullet on the finished round. You don't often see it when using Lee or Hornady dies. In addition, Dillon's seating dies don't do a very good job of aligning the boolit with the case, so that some of the rounds will have the outline of the bullet all on one side of the case and none on the opposite side. This gives a pretty pronounced "hourglass" shape on one side while the other side is straight. This condition doesn't often cause a problem, but if your gun is a little picky about the ammo it feeds, then this can agrivate it somewhat.


Question about headspace: On several different occasions I have seen 10mm and 40S&W ammo fired in a 45ACP. I've also seen 9mm and 38super fired in a 40S&W. In every instance of this that I've seen, the round fed from the magazine and fired but didn't generate enough recoil to eject the case and feed another round from the magazine. When the slide was racked manually, the case was ejected. How can this happen if the cartridge must headspace on the case mouth or on the bullet fit in the leade?

Question for Starmetal: Joe, you said the 45ACP was originally designed with a tapered case. Could you refer me to a source the original dimensions? I've seen this in print five or six different times and I'm curious. I've asked a couple of different experts who have repeated this and have not yet gotten an answer. I would think if the 45 was designed with a taper then the other ACP's(25, 32, 380, 38) would be the same, but I've never seen anybody write "The 32ACP was originally designed with a tapered case". So what's the deal? Can you help me out here?


Jerry

robertbank
01-28-2006, 01:15 AM
Relax. My reply was directed to 35Remington. My five 1911's chambered in .45acp have had no problems digesting every type of boolit designed to be shot out of the .45acp. without any modifications. Two are Paras with ramped barrels which is cheating a bit, the Norincos have never had a problem with any of the designs out out of the box. I do know the early Colts often choked on SWC boolits and soime may still do. Mine guns never have.

I have never had any reason to feed empty cases into my Paras but assume they would feed them with the ramped barrel. Next time I am out with them I'll give it a try.

Your comment regarding FMJ RN being the preferred boolit for defense certainly cannot be substantiated from notional evidence I have read and obsevered.

STay Safe and we are done.

StarMetal
01-28-2006, 01:55 AM
Gee Banks, you have a thick skull. I never said that about the hardball round nose for defense, that was copied from the Kimber site. Guess I should have put the info from Kimber's site in quotations or something. I DID NOT SAY IT, I KNOW THAT IT'S NOT THE BEST ANYMORE. Like I said before I merely quoted the paragraph from Kimber's site to let folks know their chambers aren't combat loose ones.

Okay, got it now?

Joe

35remington
01-28-2006, 02:22 AM
Please reread to confirm that I said FMJ's and SWC's that have feeding characteristics identical to FMJ's by design are the most popular bullets. We're in full agreement about that. It's great that your guns are dead nuts reliable. But if I had to choose a bullet that would be most likely to feed, it would be one of those two if I did not know the gun it was to be used in.

We're wandering. The point is, roll crimping can work. Simple as that. I myself did it for reasons having to do with roll crimping being the feature offered on my die set, and I did it to turn in the bell on the case mouth. In my unknowing, early handloading career I did it to extremes at times due to varying case lengths of mixed brass and harmed not a thing. Later I did it deliberately.

I know all about the theoretical headspace thing, and I wasn't worried about it. I'm interested in what happens in actual practice. The rounds were properly headspaced and went bang every time. It does not particularly matter what is said by those that have never tried it nor understand it. It just works, and I can't change that.

pdgraham
01-28-2006, 10:27 AM
I suppose I would be out of line if I said ..... A Lee Factory Crimp would make this a moot point... :lovebooli

robertbank
01-28-2006, 10:59 AM
I got to get me a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Not sure I need one but every guy that has ever posted says they work great and guys that don't have them think they cure cancer. Either way I gotta be a winner.

Stay Safe

BD
01-29-2006, 11:12 AM
This has been a pretty lively thread. In my opinion headspace in the .45 acp is a non issue. For all practical puposes "headspace" in a 1911 is held within working limits by the extractor, the case mouth bottoming in the chamber and the bullet sticking in the lands. In virtually no instance would all three be overcome to the point where the firing pin would fail to reach the primer as fp travel is really only limited by the compression of the fp spring. The real issue, when we're having "issues", is whether the cartridge will chamber fully. I'm not sure that I've ever found a .45 ACP case which was too long. My cases consistently get shorter each time they're sized. IMHO it's a very rare case which actually contacts the end of the chamber. Either the bullet hits the lands or the cartridges forward motion is limited by the extractor.

Most of the chambering issues I've seen are caused by one of three things, (and I'm talking about chambering issues, not feeding issues here).

A swelled case, usually caused by improper die set up or oversized cast bullets.
OAL too long for that particular bullet design.
Oversized SWC bullets, particularly in newer Kimbers.

The Lee factory crimp die will cure a swelled case, but it also masks the cause. I use one on my Pro-Jector. IMHO the problems with OAL and oversized SWCs are both related to the "throat" in a 1911. Most 1911 barrels have a very short leade from the end of the chamber to the start of the lands. The beginning of the lands are them chamfered by a hand held throater, generally only for another few hundreths. This leade is what determines how much of the front drive band can be forward of the case mouth and still alow the cartridge to chamber. Any throat reamed into the start of the lands adds a but of tolerance to this dimension. But, as the throating is done by hand it will vary between guns. This can get to be an issue when folks are using bullets sized .452, (most commercial bullets), in a barrel with a .451 or even a .4505 bore diameter, (all kimbers and many gold cups). In that instance the OAL length needs to be kept short enough to stay out of the leade or a bit of lead is scraped off the front drive band from each bullet chambered, building up in the leade and first inch or so of the barrel. Sizing to .451 cures this nearly every time.
I've seen Kimbers with no throating to the start of the lands at all, and I've seen them come with a generous throat. It's done by hand and it does vary, and maybe even get forgotten. A few quick twists of a throater in your barrel will buy you quite a bit of slack in this area.
My simple cure for all of this is to make sure there's some throat, size to .451 and use the Lee FCD in the last station on my press. Leading is a non issue and I commonly go 500 to 1,000 rounds of cast between cleanings with no problems.
BD

pdgraham
01-29-2006, 12:43 PM
That's some interesting and informative stuff BD... :smile:

When I was using Lee TL molds for 45acp I ran into the leade issue right away with one of my after market 1911 barrels..

I have since sold my Lee TL molds in favor of an RCBS mold .. it casts the bullets in my Avatar.. It's a very forgiving seating profile for 1911s..

Edward429451
01-29-2006, 01:25 PM
<Question about headspace: On several different occasions I have seen 10mm and 40S&W ammo fired in a 45ACP. I've also seen 9mm and 38super fired in a 40S&W. In every instance of this that I've seen, the round fed from the magazine and fired but didn't generate enough recoil to eject the case and feed another round from the magazine. When the slide was racked manually, the case was ejected. How can this happen if the cartridge must headspace on the case mouth or on the bullet fit in the leade?>

It headspaced on the extractor which held it against the breech face. I know cause it happened to me. I shot one 40 S&W in my colt 45. No recoil or slide movement just like you say. Gun no worse for wear but the primer indentation says it was right up there & centered. The extractor was the only thing that made it possible.

robertbank
01-29-2006, 01:29 PM
If the firing pin hits the primer with enough force the round will fire. Nothing to do with headspace. May happen everytime, may not.

Stay Safe

rebliss
01-29-2006, 03:21 PM
Interesting information about sizing to .451 for Kimbers. Although my gun shoots my cast .452 sized bullets, and commercial hard-cast .452 just fine, I do notice a bit of lead smear in the first 1" of rifling. Perhaps I'll size and load an equal number of boolits to .451 and .452 and see which shoot better.

StarMetal
01-29-2006, 04:02 PM
Yeah that sizing to a .451 is I think a BD thing. I've sized to .452 all my life in all the 45 acp firearms I have owned with nary a problem.

Joe

BD
01-29-2006, 04:40 PM
I believe that in a well broken in barrel with some throat the difference between using .451 or .452 bullets is insignificant. I have seen it make a real difference in several new kimbers using SWCs though.

I think shooters tend to develope strong opinions based on their own personal experience, and our experiences are probably pretty varied. As an example I'll offer the differences in opinion about JMBs model of 1911. I've met quite a few guys of my fathers generation who swear by it based on thier experience with it in WW II. And I've met a number of guys of my generation who swear at it based on the examples they encountered in Vietnam. In any event it's certainly one of the most popular platforms used in competition these days.
BD