Any advantage to 460 rowland over 45 super?

[Longranger44]

For someone who rolls their own and has a well supported 45 acp barrel with a comp, is there any advantage to 460 rowland vs 45 super? The coal and case capacity is identical and starline says the brass is identical save for the length... So aside from avoiding putting a super cartridge in a 45 acp gun that can't handle it, is there any point to the rowland other than to separate the customer from his money?

[Longranger44]

And along the same lines, shouldn't the 450 smc be even stronger yet than both the 45 super and the 460 theoretically?

[M-Tecs]

And along the same lines, shouldn't the 450 smc be even stronger yet than both the super the 460 theoretically?

The 45 Super is equal to the 450 smc and 460 Rowland is significantly more potent based on published data. I only have firsthand experience with the 460 Rowland.

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/the-450-smc-a-potent-practical-defensive-cartridge/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieoEBKvRIGI

[M-Tecs]

For someone who rolls their own and has a well supported 45 acp barrel with a comp, is there any advantage to 460 rowland vs 45 super? The coal and case capacity is identical and starline says the brass is identical save for the length... So aside from avoiding putting a super cartridge in a 45 acp gun that can't handle it, is there any point to the rowland other than to separate the customer from his money?

For hunting and grizzly bear defense the 460 Rowland gives you middle of the road 44 Mag ballistics out of a semi-auto. My 460 Rowland is in an FN FNX-45 Tactical for the specific propose of grizzly bear defense.

15 plus 1 rounds of 460 Rowland in a 33 oz. double action/single action in a Kenai Chest Holster is about as good as it gets for bear defense. Mine is 100% reliable to date.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=231
255gr. hard cast bullet @ 1300 fps or a 230gr. FMJ-FN bullet @ 1350 fps.

[Longranger44]

The 45 Super is equal to the 450 smc and 460 Rowland is significantly more potent based on published data. I only have firsthand experience with the 460 Rowland.

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/the-450-smc-a-potent-practical-defensive-cartridge/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieoEBKvRIGI
Yes I know what they're rated at and loaded to, but since the brass and capacity is identical I don't see why the 45 super couldn't be loaded to the exact same pressure as the 460, and the 450 smc maybe even higher yet?

[cwtebay]

I am in the mountains around 120 days a year in bear land. I have carried a 44 mag SBH for around 20 years. I was perplexed about the 10mm vs. revolver argument until quite recently due to an HP friend explaining to me what happened during his firearm requalification. Place the barrel of your semi auto against a biological barrier (i.e. Body) and pull the trigger. You turned your semi auto into a mallet. I disagreed and purchased a Smith and Wesson 10mm. He was correct. One shot and you're jammed.
Another personal soap box - if it's concerning bears that mean to do you dirty encountered on the trail - you ain't fast enough. Period. Unless you are drawn and prepared - ain't no one fast enough. Disagree? You haven't encountered many bears that mean to do you harm.

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[M-Tecs]

I am in the mountains around 120 days a year in bear land. I have carried a 44 mag SBH for around 20 years. I was perplexed about the 10mm vs. revolver argument until quite recently due to an HP friend explaining to me what happened during his firearm requalification. Place the barrel of your semi auto against a biological barrier (i.e. Body) and pull the trigger. You turned your semi auto into a mallet. I disagreed and purchased a Smith and Wesson 10mm. He was correct. One shot and you're jammed.
Another personal soap box - if it's concerning bears that mean to do you dirty encountered on the trail - you ain't fast enough. Period. Unless you are drawn and prepared - ain't no one fast enough. Disagree? You haven't encountered many bears that mean to do you harm.

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I guess there is no point in carrying a handgun for bear defense...........

These folks would disagree and they had bears meaning to do the dirty to them.

Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks – 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective
https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/handgun-defenses-against-bears-170-documented-incidents-98-effective/#axzz8JktBCwW3

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/update-of-pistol-defenses-against-bears-123-cases-98-effective/#axzz8JktBCwW3

On a side note I've had a 629 lockup in a freezing light rain while deer hunting and yes it was in a holster. In the area I spend time in AK it's a rare day when you don't see at least one grizzly within 200 yards. I've been within 20 feet of grizzlies three times and a bunch of times within 20 yards. Had one last year at about 20 yards that didn't flinch when 3 rounds of 12 gauge and 2 rounds of 375 H&H were fired over his back. He was young and only about a 6 footer.

I have S&W 29's, S&W 629's, a S&W 460, a bunch of single action Ruger's in 44 Mag and 45 Colt and a couple of 6" 1911's in 10mm. For me my 460 Rowland in an FN FNX-45 Tactical is my go-to grizzly defense handgun. Least desirable would be a single action 1911 simply because the open area of the hammer collects to much junks when you are cutting and collecting wood or rocks for riprap. With a full flap holster it would be fine.

[cwtebay]

I guess there is no point in carrying a handgun for bear defense...........

These folks would disagree and they had bears meaning to do the dirty to them.

Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks – 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective
https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/handgun-defenses-against-bears-170-documented-incidents-98-effective/#axzz8JktBCwW3

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/update-of-pistol-defenses-against-bears-123-cases-98-effective/#axzz8JktBCwW3

On a side note I've had a 629 lockup in a freezing light rain while deer hunting and yes it was in a holster. In the area I spend time in AK it's a rare day when you don't see at least one grizzly within 200 yards. I've been within 20 feet of grizzlies three times and a bunch of times within 20 yards. Had one last year at about 20 yards that didn't flinch when 3 rounds of 12 gauge and 2 rounds of 375 H&H were fired over his back. He was young and only about a 6 footer.

I have S&W 29's, S&W 629's, a S&W 460, a bunch of single action Ruger's in 44 Mag and 45 Colt and a couple of 6" 1911's in 10mm. For me my 460 Rowland in an FN FNX-45 Tactical is my go-to grizzly defense handgun. Least desirable would be a single action 1911 simply because the open area of the hammer collects to much junks when you are cutting and collecting wood or rocks for riprap. With a full flap holster it would be fine.I have read that study. I am only offering my experiences. My close calls have been at 10 yards and less, meeting at a switchback - hilltop - happenstance. The speed of a bear for the man that's alert but un-drawn is far too discrepant. My office staff bought me a Mossberg Shockwave for my March birthday several years ago (to preserve their employment presumably), no way faster. I have a chest rig for my BH and I don't think that I would even touch the grips had those bears elected to close the deal. If I smell dead critter or my horse gets snorty - I am en pointe and drawn. I put several hundred rounds through that revolver every year and trust mine and my family's lives to it against any 2 legged critters, but sumf a buck they are fast. I have taken the bear defense course through my work and with the government trappers - I have passed with flying colours every time.... just haven't met anyone fast enough to seal the deal if one elects to go claws and jaws from close range. Does that mean I stopped carrying?? Absolutely not. I come heavy with religious fervor !! As do my kids and my wife!!! I just am not sure that carrying bigger and better and harder is the answer. As a matter of fact, I'll take my SBH over anything anyone else has to offer. Try pulling a BFR or X Frame!
I have heard the argument that LEO's and the military have relied on semiautomatic pistols for several decades, but I challenge anyone that shoots consistently and takes pride in their shooting to go to an LEO proficiency day. You will outshoot nearly every one due to sheer trigger time - regardless of the action you choose.
I have had more encounters with the 2 and 4 legged threats than I wish to repeat, I just hope the guy that is banking on more rounds faster is able to be proficient when it actually matters.

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[M-Tecs]

You are correct that most LE and military are poor shots at best unless they are avid shooters or competitors. The US military switched to semi-auto handguns in 1911. In large part that was due to better reliability under the extreme conditions of combat. For the average user the edge goes to the revolver.

I have a couple of Remington Tac 14's. Tons of fun but slow to deploy and easy to shoot high or low. X frames are not much better to deploy. For me years of competition with a 1911 gives the speed and accuracy edge for first shot and follow-up shots to the 1911's or my FN FNX-45 Tactical verse double action revolvers. I've shot a lot of single action revolvers, and my first shot speed and accuracy are about the same as my 629 and FN FNX-45 Tactical. After the first shot the 460 Rowland really shows it's worth. For me the 460 Rowland in an FN FNX-45 Tactical is a better option than my 629. It's 15 ounces lighter than my 7 1/2" SBH empty and even with 16 rounds loaded it still just under the weight of my SBH empty.

What job do you have that allows you to carry a personal SBH? The only single actions I've seen as a duty gun was a Sheriff. He carried a Colt 2nd Generation Peacemaker in 45 Colt. He was the real deal. WWII and Korean vet he was amazing with a revolver.

[Longranger44]

I am in the mountains around 120 days a year in bear land. I have carried a 44 mag SBH for around 20 years. I was perplexed about the 10mm vs. revolver argument until quite recently due to an HP friend explaining to me what happened during his firearm requalification. Place the barrel of your semi auto against a biological barrier (i.e. Body) and pull the trigger. You turned your semi auto into a mallet. I disagreed and purchased a Smith and Wesson 10mm. He was correct. One shot and you're jammed.
Another personal soap box - if it's concerning bears that mean to do you dirty encountered on the trail - you ain't fast enough. Period. Unless you are drawn and prepared - ain't no one fast enough. Disagree? You haven't encountered many bears that mean to do you harm.

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A simple rail mounted standoff device cures that issue

[charlie b]

What was done to your FN to allow it to fire the Rowland?

[M-Tecs]

What was done to your FN to allow it to fire the Rowland?

I did get a second barrel for 460 Rowland use only. I have maybe 5K thru the 45ACP barrel and about 250 thru the 460 Rowland. It's been 100% for reliability. Trigger isn't the greatest. Accuracy is 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" for five shots at 25 yards. 16 rounds of 255 grain at close to 1300 fps is very controllable.

https://460rowland.com/product/compensated-fnx-fnx-45-conversion/

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=231

[cwtebay]

A simple rail mounted standoff device cures that issueI don't disagree with you - I challenge you to poll your shooting friends on what that device is and what it for, however.

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[Longranger44]

I don't disagree with you - I challenge you to poll your shooting friends on what that device is and what it for, however.

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Lol who cares if others know what it's for?

[cwtebay]

Lol who cares if others know what it's for?I may have misspoke. I don't know how many know that exists. But it looks like a good idea!

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[charlie b]

I did get a second barrel for 460 Rowland use only. I have maybe 5K thru the 45ACP barrel and about 250 thru the 460 Rowland. It's been 100% for reliability. Trigger isn't the greatest. Accuracy is 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" for five shots at 25 yards. 16 rounds of 255 grain at close to 1300 fps is very controllable.

https://460rowland.com/product/compensated-fnx-fnx-45-conversion/

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=231

Thanks.

[Longranger44]

I may have misspoke. I don't know how many know that exists. But it looks like a good idea!

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Yeah its not something I've ever seen in real life but it solves the problem you describe. A simple weapon light that extend beyond the muzzle will accomplish the same thing also.

[Longranger44]

I'm still curious about my original question and anyone's thoughts on that...

[rintinglen]

You answered your question in your original post. The 460 Rowland is longer, so it won't get put in a "wrong" gun by error should you pass away and your guns and ammo end up in the hands of some less knowledgeable person. I am at the stage where all my "+P+". ammo is getting used up so should one of my kids or grandkids grab a box of my reloads after I am gone, they won't break a gun or injure themselves through inadvertently loading the wrong ammo in the wrong gun.

[charlie b]

So, yes, you could fire the .460 Rowland load in a .45 super. Rowland claims to make their barrels out of special material, but, I don't know what pressures they run at so don't know if a std 1911 barrel would work or not. You would at least need to beef up the recoil spring.

Find someone with a strain gage setup to see what pressure it is running at.

FWIW, ran GRT with 230gn and AA7. To get 1300fps it would be upward of 35000psi.

[Abert Rim]

I don't know how you could possibly fire a .460 Rowland round in a .45 Super chamber, as the Rowland is 1/16th longer. The Super is beefier in the web, but otherwise identical externally to the .45 ACP case.
Charlie, do you shoot at the Butterfield range? I used to work at the range run by Otero County.

[M-Tecs]

I believe the OP is asking if it would be safe to use 460 Rowland load data in the 45 Super Case in a firearm rated for 460 Rowland.

[charlie b]

And I think the real question is, which guns are capable of handling the pressures developed by .460 Rowland loads?

[Longranger44]

You answered your question in your original post. The 460 Rowland is longer, so it won't get put in a "wrong" gun by error should you pass away and your guns and ammo end up in the hands of some less knowledgeable person. I am at the stage where all my "+P+". ammo is getting used up so should one of my kids or grandkids grab a box of my reloads after I am gone, they won't break a gun or injure themselves through inadvertently loading the wrong ammo in the wrong gun.
I feel like that could be easily accomplished by putting it in a box marked 45 super do not fire in 45 ACP gun with lots of exclamation points. Seems like a pretty specific scenario to Warrant a completely different cartridge when it has no actual advantage power wise

[Longranger44]

I believe the OP is asking if it would be safe to use 460 Rowland load data in the 45 Super Case in a firearm rated for 460 Rowland.
Yes that's exactly what I mean

[Longranger44]

And I think the real question is, which guns are capable of handling the pressures developed by .460 Rowland loads?
Considering the fact that 357 Sig runs at the same pressure I'd say most pistols, obviously Glock FN Springfield HK and 1911s since they are listed by Rowland

[Longranger44]

So, yes, you could fire the .460 Rowland load in a .45 super. Rowland claims to make their barrels out of special material, but, I don't know what pressures they run at so don't know if a std 1911 barrel would work or not. You would at least need to beef up the recoil spring.

Find someone with a strain gage setup to see what pressure it is running at.

FWIW, ran GRT with 230gn and AA7. To get 1300fps it would be upward of 35000psi.

Well Roland claims to use the same 416 stainless that pretty much everyone else does, they do mention heat treat but they are pretty vague about it, I'm guessing it's purely marketing. Seeing as the pressures are no higher than something like a 357 Sig I doubt they're doing anything special

[Longranger44]

I've read of reports of primer flow with 460 Rowland rounds but never heard anything about the chamber walls being too thin or anything like that. I'm thinking that 450 SMC would be even stronger yet than the Ryland with the small primer, however brass seems to be unobtainium at the moment

[charlie b]

I guess you tot answers to all of your questions. I'd get some .45super brass and try the heavier loads.

FWIW, there were a few threads about dealing with increased recoil in the 1911 platform. I believe it was on the subject of hot 10mm loads but maybe it was another Rowland discussion. Things like higher tension hammer springs and squared off firing pin retainers to delay the unlocking. That holds the barrel locked until the pressure reduces a bit, leading to a lower rated recoil spring. I've never tried any of that since my days with 'heavy' guns is over.

[Paul105]

In 1911s, you can mitigate primer flow somewhat (maybe altogether) with an oversized firing pin combined with heavier firing pin spring. Oversized firing pins are offered by Wilson and EGW probably others.

Oversized pins will take some trial and error fitting.

FWIW,

Paul

[JohnForrest]

So no one has mentioned the comp/brake slowing down the unlock on 460 Rowland. I thought that was the magic sause to 460 all along?

Somewhere I think there is slow motion footage that debunks this but didn't locate it before posting.

Im new to 460 R so all this is interesting to me.

[Longranger44]

So no one has mentioned the comp/brake slowing down the unlock on 460 Rowland. I thought that was the magic sause to 460 all along?

Somewhere I think there is slow motion footage that debunks this but didn't locate it before posting.

Im new to 460 R so all this is interesting to me.

Yes the comp should slow down slide speed and keep it locked slightly longer due to the gas working against the ports and the added weight. That's the theory anyway if like to see slow mo footage of a 460 or hot 45 super with and without a comp

[Anchorite]

Love these threads…read them in frequently some version across multiple sites. My .02$, as I shot a 45S for years in my 4506, one can accomplish 90% of the 45S with a +P 45.

As for the 10mm and bear protection? Magazine capacity is a false god. I’ll take a 44M any day and everyday, thank you.

[Longranger44]

Love these threads…read them in frequently some version across multiple sites. My .02$, as I shot a 45S for years in my 4506, one can accomplish 90% of the 45S with a +P 45.

As for the 10mm and bear protection? Magazine capacity is a false god. I’ll take a 44M any day and everyday, thank you.

Were talking about 45 super being able to accomplish what 460 rowland can, not 45 acp being able to accomplish what 45 super can.

[JohnForrest]

I bet there is a fella at Clark Customs that could/would answer this question if the right guy asked him. I haven't spent enough money there yet so I am not the guy. With the new V2 dampner system they claim you can go down to something like a 12 pound recoil spring. To me the neat thing about that is alot less worry about bullet setback like you could easily get with a 22 pounder.

I like your origional question Longranger. I have a bunch of super brass too.

[Longranger44]

I bet there is a fella at Clark Customs that could/would answer this question if the right guy asked him. I haven't spent enough money there yet so I am not the guy. With the new V2 dampner system they claim you can go down to something like a 12 pound recoil spring. To me the neat thing about that is alot less worry about bullet setback like you could easily get with a 22 pounder.

I like your origional question Longranger. I have a bunch of super brass too.

That's a good idea I'll shoot them a message and post their response here

[Longranger44]

I emailed Clark customs but never heard anything back. Oh well.

[Kosh75287]

I believe the OP is asking if it would be safe to use 460 Rowland load data in the 45 Super Case in a firearm rated for 460 Rowland.

MY short answer is NO!
My longer answer is that you really shouldn't. The .460 Rowland data was worked up in .460 Rowland brass which is 1/16th inch longer and far thicker in the web area. This translates to lower case capacity for the .460 Rowland.
Using these data in a .45 Super case, the web of which is only slightly thicker than stock .45 ACP, and the capacity of which is only slightly greater than the .460 Rowland, will probably yield attenuated performance and a very real risk of a ruptured case head.
It's been a while since I've looked at the .460 Rowland, but I thought that the conversion kit also came with a permanently attached muzzle brake which delayed slide retraction for precious milliseconds until chamber pressures dropped somewhat. Is this no longer the case?

As to which firearms are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures, the answer is probably "All of them, at least for a while." A more detailed answer is that pistols with steel forged frames are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures for more rounds than steel investment cast frames, alloy frames, and polymer frames.

[charlie b]

Rowland doesn't seem to care what the frame of the pistol is made of, but, he does put limits on the slide and does not seem to recommend stainless slides.

[Longranger44]

MY short answer is NO!
My longer answer is that you really shouldn't. The .460 Rowland data was worked up in .460 Rowland brass which is 1/16th inch longer and far thicker in the web area. This translates to lower case capacity for the .460 Rowland.
Using these data in a .45 Super case, the web of which is only slightly thicker than stock .45 ACP, and the capacity of which is only slightly greater than the .460 Rowland, will probably yield attenuated performance and a very real risk of a ruptured case head.
It's been a while since I've looked at the .460 Rowland, but I thought that the conversion kit also came with a permanently attached muzzle brake which delayed slide retraction for precious milliseconds until chamber pressures dropped somewhat. Is this no longer the case?

As to which firearms are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures, the answer is probably "All of them, at least for a while." A more detailed answer is that pistols with steel forged frames are capable of handling .460 Rowland pressures for more rounds than steel investment cast frames, alloy frames, and polymer frames.

This is incorrect. Starline themselves states that the 45 super brass is identical in thickness to 460 brass in all areas, the only difference being in the length, which serves ONLY to prevent 460 ammo from chambering in a 45 acp chamber (it also makes Mr. Rowland a lot of money ;) The cartridge overall length of 45 super and 460 rowland are identical, meaning the bullet is simply seated further into the 460 case, resulting in identical case capacity and identical strength. Meaning they should be able to share load data.

As far as the host gun goes, yes the compensator is an important part in taming slide speed with the hot 460 loads, and the same compensator can be used on any threaded 45 acp barrel with a well supported chamber without the added expense of reaming to 460 length or buying Rowlands expensive parts.
Oh and 45 super brass is significantly cheaper than 460 rowland brass. For the reloader who isn't concerned about mixing up brass, 45 super makes the most sense as it can do everything the 460 rowland can do at a fraction of the price.

[Longranger44]

Rowland doesn't seem to care what the frame of the pistol is made of, but, he does put limits on the slide and does not seem to recommend stainless slides.

Well he has a conversion kit for the Fn Fnx 45 which comes from the factory with a stainless slide

[JohnForrest]

I ran across a good show on You Tube about super and rowland. The music sucks but worth putting up with for the content. The channel is Go big or go home. And the show is 5 variations of 45 ACP. I think the trademark stuff explains alot.

I understand the op wants to shoot 460 performance without the cost and I get where Rowland wanted make 460 power possible without the risk of a lawsuit and create something with his name on it.

When I got my Clark set up I felt pretty safe knowing they set up the kit. I have always liked the way that outfit operated. What I realize now is, a fella better be pretty up to speed on the dynamics of alot of variables to be sure he is safe with 460 performance from super. I know I wasn't and feel kind of lucky I didn't try stuff with super ahead of time. Maybe I am getting soft in my old age, three $$ something for the kit and the extra for the brass didn't bother me at all knowing what I do now. I didn't understand what I didn't know.

My last thought is, 20 years from now, my kinds and grandkids will be cleaning up all my old **** and someone might dump all the 45 ammo into a big bowl like Hickok 45 does, for a big final send off for me. What if there's a 45 ACP built back when they needed 3 lugs in the barrel because the metal was ****.

This is a good thread to learn alot about how everything works together, Be Iowa nice, keep it going with good info and ideas and call out the BS, we might all learn something and save a few fingers.

[Thor's Daddy]

Considering the fact that 357 Sig runs at the same pressure I'd say most pistols, obviously Glock FN Springfield HK and 1911s since they are listed by Rowland

This is some really poor logic. The 357 Sig may run at the same pressure as the Rowland, but there's significantly more meat in the chamber walls of a 357 Sig barrel than the same gun chambered in the Rowland. Sad thing is, some young guy who doesn't know any better will read that and go and get himself a missing finger... or worse.

That being said, I think you're basic premise is sound. As long as the gun is set up to deal with the slide velocity that Rowland level loads dish out, you're good to go. It's not my cup of tea, personally, as I see the chase for velocity as a fools errand in a handgun, especially in a semi-auto. But if you've got yourself convinced... have at it.

[Ramjet-SS]

Absolutely NOT sure you may get away with for a few shots but at some point your gun and maybe the shooter will suffer major catastrophic damage as result.

There way more to getting energy safely from a gun than just the case capacity. You need to take time to educate yourself.

I am not trying to be a jerk here but there a ****loads of videos and stories online showing guns blow to pieces by folks who just look at case capacity and don't research the engineering or science behind the developement of loads.

Short example the compensator on a 460 Rowland conversion serves a very specific purpose, what is that purpose?

Spring rates and buffer tubes do what?

Same loads (powder weight and bullet weight along with same seating depth) in a 45 ACP vs a 45 Super has what impact on case pressure and slide velocity? How about projectile velocity? What is the pressure thus the breech face force?

In these several questions are your answers.

[Sandspider500]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-25-2015/V1sNVK.gif

357 magnum, 44 magnum, 454 casull, and 460 Rowland all have what in common?

https://media.tenor.co/images/d299df5e965b89f051b9a24cad453f79/raw