What am I doing wrong?

[Boerrancher]

I don't understand why I can swab my 45-70 barrel with patches soaked in Moose Milk until they come out clean, then run a couple dry patches through it, followed by a light oil patch to store the gun for a few days, and then 24 to 36 hours later come back and the riflings in my bore are growing black fuzz? I have been down this road several times. I havn't shot my 45-70 in a couple of weeks and I am cleaning the black fuzz out of it every other day, and when I start the patches come out just like they did when I first cleaned it after shooting it. I am about ready to give up on the ballistol and moose milk, and go back to hot water and #9 bore solvent.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Joe,

Try Murphy's mix. One Third each Murphy's oil soap, Hydogen Peroxide, and Alcohol.

Sam :D

[405]

Hmmm, could be either lead or carbon that isn't getting cleaned out then going thru a continuing chemical process. Try getting all the junk out before oiling. I use a worn out brass brush wound with medium bronze wool for tight fit. Others use Chore Boy strands similarly wound or the brass screen as with the Lewis kit.

I think some of the "seasoning" coating that ML folks talk about is the thin build up of some of this unknown crud ?? :mrgreen: But, I like to get it all out then oil coat for corrosion protection.

I use the Ballistol/water mix followed by oil. But if it's not working then you might try a different potion. One I know that is used by muzzleloaders is equal parts- Murphy's oil soap/alcohol/peroxide... then once clean and patched out completely... follow with oil. For long term storage I use CLP. For shorter term I use LPS-1.

MCS, just noticed we posted the "Murphy" at the same time :)

[Boz330]

Joe, are you using a jag or just a slot tip rod? I use vinegar Windex and water for the BP and when I get home I run some Shooters Choice lead remover through it let it sit a while then a really tight patch on a jag. I've never seen what you are talking about in one of my cartridge guns, but I have seen it in one of my 1911s when using swaged bullets after a high count session. The lead could be breaking loose because of something in your cleaning solution after the fact. Just guessing here though.

Bob

[13Echo]

Water is still the best solvent for black powder and most BP substitutes. I use plain water or Windex with vinegar or, in the past, Antifreeze half and half with water. All work well with no problems with late corrosion. Your Moosemilk might have too much oil which could interfere with the solvent action of water. Since you follow with dry patches and then oil I have to wonder about the reason for cleaning with Moosemilk in the first place.

Jerry Liles

[waksupi]

I'd got to plain ol' water. The oil is taking away some of the cleaning ability of the water.

[montana_charlie]

I browbeat a local store manager until he finally brought in a case of Ballistol...and I bought one can.
As soon as I got home, I mixed up a small jug of Moose milk to have on hand..and dampened a pile of patches to use for wiping between shots. I stored those wipers in an tight plastic container.

I used some moose milk for a few odd jobs, but never really decided whether it worked better than other things.

Then finally came a day when I had some ammunition loaded, was ahead on my chores, and had some nice weather. So, I took my 'stuff' out to try that 'wiping thing' to see how it compared with blowtubing.

When I opened the box to make a few 'wipers' ready, they were all covered with some dark fuzz that I decided was mildew. This is in a climate where mildew is about as rare as a level-headed left-winger.

I don't know what is in Ballistol, but I suspect it might be 'too organic' for some things.

(Just writing this post reminds me that I need to mix up some moose milk using water and NAPA water soluable cutting oil...to see how THAT keeps in storage.)

CM

[SharpsShooter]

Never had this happen. I use windshield washer fluid and follow up with WD40. I've also tried Friendship Speed Juice but haven't seen any advantage to it.

In your case, I would use very hot water and a squirt of dawn dishwashing soap to get it really clean, dry it completely and use a moisture displacing oil.

The biggest thing to remember is it is Black Powder. The buffalo hunters and frontiersmen had water to clean with and that is about all. Nothing fancy is required. No magic elixir is gonna work beter than good old H2o.


SS

[August]

I haven't noticed this in my gunz. I only use ballistol/H2O for cleaning. After that, I use Hornady Gun Cleaner/lube (which seems to live peacefully with black powder). Then, I coat the bore with Mobil One for storage. Before shooting, I wipe the Mobil one out with a dry patch.

I believe that aggressive cleaning of precision gunz can wreck the seasoning of the bore and actually make the gun harder to clean down the line (to say nothing about affecting the accuracy).

[Cimarron Red]

Like Montana Charlie, I use water soluble oil and water mixed ten parts water to one part oil. I've been using this exclusively and wiping after every shot since '03. I have never seen the condition described above. After a match or range session, I clean at home with the same concoction, then dry the bore and apply a thin coating of Kroil. Yesterday I checked some patches lightly soaked with my solution (these were from last year's shooting season.) They looked and smelled just as they did when I made them up.

[BPCR Bill]

Dunno Pardner, I use Birchwood Casey BP solvent, or a mixture of 50/50 water and antifreeze. I finish it up with a patch or two of Kroil. Never had anything fuzzy grow in the barrel.

Regards,
Bill

[RMulhern]

Boerrancher

Here's an important thing...I may have missed:

"What be ya shootin in that thing? Which powder?":-?[smilie=1:

[martinibelgian]

I don't believe the cleaning products are the problem - but you probably need a more tightly-fitting patch. That and a good clean to get that lead out of the barrel...

[Bent Ramrod]

I think MartiniBelgian is right. I clean with Ballistol/Water and then with a patch wet with straight Ballistol. On my Pedersoli Sharps target rifle, I have never seen any fuzz, but I have seen it on my Garrett Sharps carbine with the deep rifling and on my High Wall with slightly speckly barrel. The Ballistol film keeps any further barrel damage from happening, and another Ballistol-wet patch usually takes care of the fuzzy streaks.

A little leading will look shiny like the rest of the barrel at first cleaning, and then turn gray and grungy in a few days.

[Boerrancher]

I originally started cleaning my BP guns with strait #9 bore solvent on patches run through a slotted tipped rod, it worked well for my inline front stuffer that I shoot Pyrodex Pellets out of, and my 45-70 that I shoot the real Holy Black out of. Never had a problem with it growing black fuzz within 24 hours of cleaning.

When I got the Ballistol, I bought a 45 cal cleaning jag for my cleaning rod. First, I just used the moose milk like I did the #9, by running wet patches through it until they were clean. I was shooting nearly every day so I was cleaning it every day. Then I got busy and the weather turned bad, and one day a week or so ago I looked down the bore of my Sharps 45-70 and it was dirty.

I thought I had cleaned it the last time I shot it but sometimes I do forget things. I cleaned it again with moose milk on a jagged patch and what came out was not rusty, it was black like powder fouling. I run moose milked patches through until they were clean, and I put the rifle back in the rack. The next day I picked it up and looked down it, and there was black in the groves, and creeping up the lands. I scrubbed it again and the first patch came out black like it had never been cleaned. I cleaned it until the patches came out clean and put it back on the rack. The next day, it was like Bill Murry's movie Ground Hog Day. I had to clean the thing again, this time I scrubbed the heck out of it with a bore brush, then patched it till it was clean and shiny followed by a damp patch of #9. 24 hours later same thing, so I scrubbed the heck out of it with a brush and #9 then patched it with #9 until it was clean. I need to go look at it and see if it is growing anything.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[cajun shooter]

Joe, I don't think it's the Ballistol that's causing your problem. If you look on on the label you will see that it also penetrates. You might have some old fouling in your bore and the Ballistol is bringing that to the surface. On old and dirty guns one of the old cleaning tricks was to let them sit over night with a cleaner in the barrel so that old fouling would surface. I remember some of your earlier postings and you was using smokeless lube with your BP. I can only suspect that this is what's going on. It's just a guess on my part as every answer here is being that we don't have access to your rifle. Ballistol has been in use for over fifty years and IMHO is a good product.

[Boz330]

Sounds like leading to me. Are you getting any slivers or particles of lead on a tight patch. Once it gets ironed in it is a bear to get out. If you have some Kroil try that and let it sit overnight.

Bob

[hiram]

sharpshootr--doesn't dissolve lead but advertised to get under it and lift up from the bore. Lead comes out as flecks on patch. I use it--it cleans well bur never had a lead issue.


http://www.paulcompany.com/

[montana_charlie]

I originally started cleaning my BP guns with strait #9 bore solvent
I assume you are referring to Hoppe's #9 solvent.
It's main claim to fame is it's smell, but what it does is take out copper fouling...along with any smokeless powder and primer residues.
It might have some benefit with Pyrodex, but it isn't said to have any value for BP.

Or, maybe you meant Hoppe's #9 Plus. That is intended for cleaning out black powder rifles. However, I suspect that the Plus is not related to regular #9 except by name. I think they are entirely different, chemically.

Kroil and Turpentine both help with getting leading out, but water is adequate for normal BP fouling. I just use cold tap water, myself.
Your fouling doesn't sound like it's normal. You probably have a combination of things going on in there...tar from smokeless lubes...crud from Pyrodex...maybe some lead...copper?...only you can know.

I would stick with snug patches and Kroil until the bore gets (reliably) clean.
I will use nylon brushes for 'scrubbing' stubborn deposits, but will not use bronze on any barrel that is in reasonably good condition.
Then drive some tight patches soaked with Kroil (or turpentine) to see if there's any lead in there.

When the bore is squeaky clean (and it will squeal with Kroil or turpentine), lube with (straight) Ballistol for short term, or another oil for long term.

And...always patch the bore dry before shooting if one of the petroleum-based oils is in there.
CM

[John Boy]

I havn't shot my 45-70 in a couple of weeks and I am cleaning the black fuzz out of it every other dayJoe - you have lead in the grooves.
Bronze brush - real turpentine - double patch - repeat until when you run the tight patch through the bore ... it squells. Then a light coat of lubricant (non petroluem) like T/C Bore Butter

[boommer]

Soap and water, dry the bore out, Kroil let it sit hour or so and tight patch it,Kroil it and put it away,unless long term storage.When you go to fire it, tight patch it the kroil will lift any spec's of lead. Do this every time and your bore will stay clean untill you shoot the bore out of it, if you use good lube and bullet fit. Mine is a simple cleaning procedure,never had that problem over the years. Burn lots black in a few BPRC and front stuffers with conical's, always kept it simple no voo-doo cleaning and it has never failed me.

[725]

What the heck, I'll throw my two cents in the pot, too. All descriptions aside, you have something in the barrel. It needs to be cleaned out. Here's what I do:
While still at the range and the barrel is hot, I do a quick and dirty cleaning and leave the barrel wet with Kroil. Even hit it with a little Char-boy around the patch to lift out lead. Anyway, I leave it wet and let it work away until I get home and do a proper cleaning. BP gets some warm water / windshield fluid to break the salts (or sugars in the substitues), patched dry - bore brushed and finished with Kroil / WD-40 / PB Blaster / Synthetic 20W-50. Again I leave it wet and do another oil based cleaning a couple days later. Usually end up with a very clean/ storeable smokepole.

[Boerrancher]

Well it has been several days since I scrubbed the heck out of it with the #9 and I have been looking at it every day and there is nothing growing in it yet. Maybe I finally got it all out. I have been thinking about it a lot and that rifle has had everything but the kitchen sink shot out of it, and if I could have figured out a way to load it, I probably would have shot it also. Until I started shooting the Holy Black out of it I don't ever remember even running a patch down the bore. It probably had copper, lead, and who knows what else in it. By using heavily saturated solvent patches the residue from 15 years of shooting started breaking loose. The next time I shoot it I will scrub it good again to make sure I have everything out of the bore.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Gentleman,I recommend that you forget all the exotic concoctions and exspensive store bought bore cleaners and start using paint thinner.It is cheap, works great and won't rust your weapon. I was using the mix described above using Murphy's soap,alcohol and hydro:-Dgen peroxside and I found to my horror a few days later that there was live rust oosing out of my Win.Hiwall.I mentioned it to a local gunshop owner and he told me ,all he ever used was paint thinner.I tried it and never looked back. I use it during a black powder match we have here with excellent results and you don'thave to run an oil patch thru the bore after cleaning. I would like for some of you to try it and tell me if it worked as well for you.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I use Butch's BP Bore cleaner, which is mostly Water plus some MP-7 to remove the carbon deposts. Something water will not do. I have seen many types of cleaners used and the Butch's will clean a so called clean barrel. After drying my bore I use Kroil. Since I paper patch my Long range gun, Leading is not an issue. With my GG loads the Kroil will get between the lead and the barrel and a few tight patches its gone. I leave Kroil in the barrel for storage also.

Kenny Wasserburger

[waksupi]

Gentleman,I recommend that you forget all the exotic concoctions and exspensive store bought bore cleaners and start using paint thinner.It is cheap, works great and won't rust your weapon. I was using the mix described above using Murphy's soap,alcohol and hydro:-Dgen peroxside and I found to my horror a few days later that there was live rust oosing out of my Win.Hiwall.I mentioned it to a local gunshop owner and he told me ,all he ever used was paint thinner.I tried it and never looked back. I use it during a black powder match we have here with excellent results and you don'thave to run an oil patch thru the bore after cleaning. I would like for some of you to try it and tell me if it worked as well for you.

And THAT, is why I have told people time after time, to not put hydrogen peroxide in a firearm!

[Jon K]

+1 Butch's BP Bore Shine, then Kroil or Ballistol to store. I wipe between shots, so clean up is a breeze.

Jon

[Boerrancher]

And THAT, is why I have told people time after time, to not put hydrogen peroxide in a firearm!

Not trying to be rude but, "Duh." Hydrogen Peroxide is an oxidizer. When added to iron based products you get iron oxide or rust.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Don McDowell]

gunshop owner and he told me ,all he ever used was paint thinner.I tried it and never looked back. I use it during a black powder match we have here with excellent results and you don'thave to run an oil patch thru the bore after cleaning. I would like for some of you to try it and tell me if it worked as well for you.

:confused: Is it just me or does anybody else get a case of the heebeejeebee's thinking about sitting on the firing line next to someone that's wiping the blackpowder fouling (hot embers included) out of the bore with something as volital as paint thinner?:???:

[405]

The horror of black fuzz growing in the bore?
Quote:
"Maybe I finally got it all out. I have been thinking about it a lot and that rifle has had everything but the kitchen sink shot out of it, and if I could have figured out a way to load it, I probably would have shot it also. Until I started shooting the Holy Black out of it I don't ever remember even running a patch down the bore. It probably had copper, lead, and who knows what else in it. By using heavily saturated solvent patches the residue from 15 years of shooting started breaking loose."

Seems like there is a clue as to what is going on in the above statement.

A clean bore is a happy, accurate bore :mrgreen:

[Boz330]

:confused: Is it just me or does anybody else get a case of the heebeejeebee's thinking about sitting on the firing line next to someone that's wiping the blackpowder fouling (hot embers included) out of the bore with something as volital as paint thinner?:???:

Don, I don't think he is talking about cleaning between shots. Probably after the string or the end of the day. It might be tough shooting through a smoke screen created by a pile of burning patches.[smilie=1:

Bob

[Don McDowell]

This part of his post still bothers me some
"I use it during a black powder match we have here "
seems a good halon fire extenquisher might be a handy thing to carry in your shooting cart?

[SharpsShooter]

Oh come on guys. the smoke is a good wind flag, although the screams of the shooter on fire might be a bit distracting.....

SS

[Don McDowell]

:-D Sure put a new strain on the ol phrase "the bullet hopin out of the barrel with its hair on fire":-D:drinks:

[testhop]

ok i will put my 2centsin i use SIMPLE GREEN a household cleaner full stringth both to clean
and at the range hunting i just wait till that night NEVER GO TO BED WHILE YOUR BLACKPOWDER FIREARM IS DIRTY
oh yes it is a good idea to clean the second time the next day that lets the poures open or something
i have cleaned one till the patches come out white and the next day patchescame out showing color remember SIMPLE GREEN AND VERY HOT WATER

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Geeez, you would have thought I was recommending that you clean your black powder rifle with a patch soaked in naphtah. However to be fair and deal with the concerns of certain parties that I might, in an act of carelesness start a conflagration equal to the last one in Malibu I decided to see just how dangerous paint thinner is as a bore cleaner. In other words ,having been born and raised in the Show Me State I wanted to check it out myself. Since Hoppe,s #9 was the only store bought bore cleaner I had ,that was tried first. I put a small amount on a 2 inch square cotton patch and struck a match.With trepidation I applied said match. Mind you I was well clear of buildings and livestock. I live on 2 and1/2 acres. Much to my surprise the patch was quickly consumed by the flames. Next I tried the same test with the dreaded paint thinner. It also caught fire ,but not as readily as Hoppe's#9. Of course a cotton patch will burn without applying a solvent, but not as quickly. Next I read the warning on the bottle. It actually gave a more strongly worded warning than what was on the can of paint thinner. Now to further allay any fears, I wanted to see just how flammable paint thinner is. I poured a small amount in a can and tried to light it with a match. No luck. It just extiguished the match. I then poured some on a flat piece of metal, same results. I then tried Hoppe,s#9 and again I was unable to ignite the liquid. Now, in the words of a certain politicion , (I want to make this perfectly clear.)I could care less what you clean the bore of your rifle with. If you wish to pay big bucks for a solvent whipped up in the basement by Uncle Fester . Have at it. I was just trying to pass on what worked for me. Not only does it do a good job cleaning the bore, it is not necessary to run an oil patch after you have cleaned it. Paint thinner being three bucks a gal. I thought it was worth passing on. As I type this little epistle a thought has just come to me .I wonder how flammable Uncle Fester's concoction is. I think it is worth remembering what is often said to jurys in the court room , don't assume that which is not in evidence. Don't want to offend anyone. After all ,as the man from Canada says,(remember we are all in this together and I'll be pulling for you.)

[Boerrancher]

Well Fellas, I figured out what I was doing wrong, and I must confess that my earlier condemnation of Ballistol was a bit premature. Since some of you mentioned that it could be lead residue breaking loose due to the solvent action of the Ballistol, I decided to run a test. I picked up my Marlin 1894 carbine in 357 mag, that has had nothing but cast boolits shot through it for the last 32 years that I know of and has never had a patch run through it, and no holy black what so ever.

I first cleaned it well with Hoppe's #9 and let it set a few days. It still looked nice and clean when I picked it up yesterday. I then run a brush with Ballistol down the bore a few times and let it set for a few minutes. I then looked down the bore with a bore light and holy crap, it looked like I had been shooting black powder out of it. I scrubbed it a bit more with the bore brush and then went to running wet patches of Ballistol through it until they came out clean. I am curious as to what the bore looks like this morning, as I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. I can't believe how well that Ballistol dissolved the hidden lead in the bore.

Having shot everything but the Kitchen sink out of my sharps, I am sure that it had numerous deposits of lead and copper in it, that had been there since the first few shots out of it. I am now a believer in the cleaning power of Ballistol, and when I order from midway again, I am going to pick up a couple more 16 oz bottles of the stuff.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[okome]

Wakupi, what exactly have you seen as the result of Murphey's, rubbing al. and hydrogen peroxide? I have 4 rifles,one shotgun, and 3 revolvers that have for the most part, never been cleaned with anything but the above mentioned reciepe. Much shooting over more than 20 years now and never had a problem with rust. I am not alone in this, a huge number of shooters at Friendship also do the same. It is almost standard. That said, the usual method is to clean with the mix, then liberally apply WD40 or equivilant and forget the gun until needed. Durring hunting season I usually use homemade tallow instead of the WD type stuff. This past weekend I had to remove the breech plug from a .54 Hawken that has been cleaned as such since it was built and there was no sign of rust at all. All that said, and I acknowledge you are an actual Gunsmith, why are our observations so drasticly different? One other thing of note, these guns are only fired with Black powder. If someone shoots pyrodex, all bets are off concerning the effectivness of the mix and it's ability to clean. If you get a chance please elaborate. okome