Grampa's pocket Pistols and The German WW II Accuracy Standard

[rintinglen]

In my summer's project, shooting the various pre-war pocket pistols I own over a modern qualification course, Outpost 75 brought up the fact that the Wehrmacht in WW II set an accuracy standard for acceptance of foreign pistols of a 10 centimeter (~4 inch, 3.937 inches) group at a distance of 15 meters (~50 feet, 49.2126'.) Said group to be fired from a sandbag rest. I wondered how these would do, so I thought I would take them out and give them a shot. Or actually, 5 of them, although the factory target that came with my Mauser HSc was only three shots. I met up with Greenfrog at his gun club, which has a very nice shotgun range, with useful rifle and pistol ranges. And despite the time we spent talking guns and generally shooting the breeze, I managed to get some of them tested,though I still have a couple more to do. I had hoped to get there about noon, but construction on the highways and somewhat heavy traffic on my end of the trip turned a 120+ mile trip into a 3 hour ordeal.

Anyways, here are the results, though I must say that they are not graven on stone tablets. A single, five shot group is only suggestive, not dispositive. Also, let me say that I was shooting off-hand, two hands, due to having left my stool at home, so there was a human element that must be considered. Still, every one was accurate enough to meet and pass the standard. Here are the standings, last to first, with the caveat that if I shot them again tomorrow, these could move around quite a bit.
,
8. Savage 1907, 32 ACP 3 3/4" (but 4 in 1 3/4")
7. Colt 1903, 32 ACP 3 1/2" *
6. Tie FN 1922, 32 ACP 3 3/8"
Walther PP, 32 ACP 3 3/8" (4 in 2 1/8")
5. CZ 27, 32 ACP 3 1/8"
4. H&R Self Loading Pistol 32 ACP, 3" (one failure to feed)
3. Unique Rr51, 32 ACP 2 7/8"
2. Mauser HSc, 380 ACP 2 1/2"
1. Beretta 1935, 32 ACP 2 3/8" (not a surprise, this gun is highly touted by Outpost 75, who knows a thing or two about 32's)

Sharp eyed folks with great memories will recall that I had shot a 1915 Savage on the Combat Course, but I forgot and grabbed the wrong one. The trigger on this one is not as nice as on the 1915. Also, note the asterisk by the Colt, I was holding at 6 O'Clock and the bullets hit just under the target, on the backer, but there were 6 holes instead of five. Since I didn't know which was the remnant from a previous test, I measured the farthest two and that was the group diameter. Had I used the best five, it would have trimmed the group size by about half an inch.

[georgerkahn]

In my summer's project, shooting the various pre-war pocket pistols I own over a modern qualification course, Outpost 75 brought up the fact that the Wehrmacht in WW II set an accuracy standard for acceptance of foreign pistols of a 10 centimeter (~4 inch, 3.937 inches) group at a distance of 15 meters (~50 feet, 49.2126'.) Said group to be fired from a sandbag rest. I wondered how these would do, so I thought I would take them out and give them a shot. Or actually, 5 of them, although the factory target that came with my Mauser HSc was only three shots. I met up with Greenfrog at his gun club, which has a very nice shotgun range, with useful rifle and pistol ranges. And despite the time we spent talking guns and generally shooting the breeze, I managed to get some of them tested,though I still have a couple more to do. I had hoped to get there about noon, but construction on the highways and somewhat heavy traffic on my end of the trip turned a 120+ mile trip into a 3 hour ordeal.

Anyways, here are the results, though I must say that they are not graven on stone tablets. A single, five shot group is only suggestive, not dispositive. Also, let me say that I was shooting off-hand, two hands, due to having left my stool at home, so there was a human element that must be considered. Still, every one was accurate enough to meet and pass the standard. Here are the standings, last to first, with the caveat that if I shot them again tomorrow, these could move around quite a bit.
,
8. Savage 1907, 32 ACP 3 3/4" (but 4 in 1 3/4")
7. Colt 1903, 32 ACP 3 1/2" *
6. Tie FN 1922, 32 ACP 3 3/8"
Walther PP, 32 ACP 3 3/8" (4 in 2 1/8")
5. CZ 27, 32 ACP 3 1/8"
4. H&R Self Loading Pistol 32 ACP, 3" (one failure to feed)
3. Unique Rr51, 32 ACP 2 7/8"
2. Mauser HSc, 380 ACP 2 1/2"
1. Beretta 1935, 32 ACP 2 3/8" (not a surprise, this gun is highly touted by Outpost 75, who knows a thing or two about 32's)

Sharp eyed folks with great memories will recall that I had shot a 1915 Savage on the Combat Course, but I forgot and grabbed the wrong one. The trigger on this one is not as nice as on the 1915. Also, note the asterisk by the Colt, I was holding at 6 O'Clock and the bullets hit just under the target, on the backer, but there were 6 holes instead of five. Since I didn't know which was the remnant from a previous test, I measured the farthest two and that was the group diameter. Had I used the best five, it would have trimmed the group size by about half an inch.

Thanks for the research and the post. An interesting log you may wish to throw on the fire ;) might be shooter-comfort, for lack of a better phrase. To wit, I have a Ceska Zbrojovca CZ which was made between 1936 and 1938 and albeit I've never yet measured trigger pull, it may very well be off the scale of my Lyman! I also have the Beretta, and re trigger pull, it is a pleasure to shoot! To my way of (probably dysfunctional ;)) thinking, if, say, both of these two pistols were secured in, say, a Ransom Rest and the CZ grouped a lot better -- off hand, I'd guess the Beretta would outshoot it, group-wise, significantly.
You were shooting off-hand (bless you) -- did you notice/consider any effects from comfort/discomfort?

[rintinglen]

Well, these are 32's, save for the HSc. I can't say that any of them were uncomfortable to shoot. The H&R has the worst trigger, subjectively, while the Colt and the Walther have the best triggers, with the Beretta right behind. The Savage also has a pretty heavy trigger, which led me to pull one high and left from an otherwise excellent group. The Colt, the Walther and the Unique have the best "feel". The FN 1922 and the H&R have the worst feel, yet the FN shot the only perfect score during the combat course testing last summer. Go figure.

It seemed to me that the best groups came from the guns with the best sights. But let me again state that on any given day, I could repeat this test and I can almost guarantee that the results would be different. The Walther in particular is very accurate, and if I could manage 5 consecutive, good trigger pulls, it might well leap to the front. I was also surprised at the Savage. That particular gun has a pretty poor trigger, heavy and gritty feeling, yet it put 4 shots tightly clustered just under the center of the target with one flier, out yonder.

[rintinglen]

Well, here are the last of the group, inserted where they fell in amongst the guns I had shot last Friday.

The 1910 I shot here was not the same gun I shot last summer. This one is a project gun that I intend to rust blue and convert to 32 ACP, once I find a barrel and get a "round tuit." It has a very stiff trigger, which when coupled with the tiny sights makes for difficult and somewhat uncomfortable shooting. That brings up another point that bears on George's question/comment. There are several guns listed here that I own more than one of: The Browning 1910, the Colt 1903, and the Savage 1907. The triggers vary markedly between the otherwise identical guns. My good 1910 has a trigger that is at least 3 pounds lighter than this one. My blued 1903 Colt has a smoother and lighter trigger than the nickle one, and the three Savages range from the excellent one that the 1915 has to the horrible one my nickled early 1907 has, with the other 1907 more or less in the middle. Also, I looked at another Beretta 1935 shortly after I got the one I used in the summer's project. That trigger was gritty and substantially heavier than the one on my gun. George says his CZ 27 is pretty poor compared to his Beretta, yet mine are roughly equivalent. (I still need to get a trigger scale.) The point of all this is merely to say that individual guns can vary markedly. One may be a sweet shooter while another similar make and model may be a jammamatic that could only hit the side of a barn from the inside. Anyway, here are the final standings. Note that all of them meet the Wehrmacht standard, though the Browning 1910 almost missed the cut, making it by a bare millimeter and a half.

9. Browning 1910, 380 ACP, 3 7/8" wide, 1 3/4" tall
8. Savage 1907, 32 ACP, 3 3/4" (but 4 in 1 3/4")
7. Tie Colt 1903, 32 ACP, 3 1/2" *
Remington M51, 380 ACP, 3 1/2"
6. Tie FN 1922, 32 ACP ,3 3/8"
Walther PP, 32 ACP, 3 3/8" (4 in 2 1/8")
5. Tie CZ 27, 32 ACP 3 1/8"
Walther Model 4, 3 1/8" tall (x 1/2" wide)
4. H&R Self Loading Pistol 32 ACP, 3" (one failure to feed)
3. Unique Rr51, 32 ACP, 2 7/8"
2. Mauser HSc, 380 ACP, 2 1/2"
1. Tie, Beretta 1935, 32 ACP, 2 3/8" (not a surprise, this gun is highly touted by Outpost 75, who knows a thing or two about 32's)
Mauser 1914, 32 ACP, 2 3/8" again, not a surprise, this gun had punched a nice group last summer at 25 yards when I first got it.