Reducing H110

[Rourke67]

I am loading 460 S&W Magnum with H110 and Speer Deepcurl 300gr JHP bullets.

319978

I couldn't find load data for this particular Bullet, but my Lee load manual showed a starting load of 38gr of H110 for a 300gr XTP, so I used that.

319979

After shooting these they all showed flattened primers and some of them stuck the cases in the cylinders.
That leads me to believe that I should reduce the powder charge, but I've always been warned not to reduce loads of H110 below the minimum charge.
What are your thoughts?

[kerplode]

You're two grains over book max for that combo per Speer 15:

319980

They do show max for Win 296 at 38gr, but I suspect something is wrong there, as that load has a lower listed velocity than the 36gr starting load.

In any case, I'd go back down to 34 and work up.

[kerplode]

Sorry, the upload seems to have reduced the resolution of the image. Here's a PDF format...

319981

[Rourke67]

Thank you so much!

[Outer Rondacker]

Rourke67 Welcome to the forum. Sorry I have not used any reduced loads containing H110 but I know many others have and I am sure are willing to help you out.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am loading 460 S&W Magnum with H110 and Speer Deepcurl 300gr JHP bullets.

I couldn't find load data for this particular Bullet, but my Lee load manual showed a starting load of 38gr of H110 for a 300gr XTP, so I used that.

After shooting these they all showed flattened primers and some of them stuck the cases in the cylinders.
That leads me to believe that I should reduce the powder charge, but I've always been warned not to reduce loads of H110 below the minimum charge.
What are your thoughts?
Rourke67 Welcome to the forum

My thoughts:
Have you measured case capacity with those Deepcurl's seated to desired length?
H110 likes the case to be full for proper ignition, along with a Mag Primer and a strong crimp. A real good double check for questionable published loads of H110 in straight wall cases, is nothing less than 85% available case volume(with bullet seated) filled with powder.

[Bazoo]

Howdy and welcome to Cb.Gl. You have to make sure that you have comparable used case volume when making a bullet substitution.

[Rourke67]

Have you measured case capacity with those Deepcurl's seated to desired length?


I have not, and I will admit I'm not sure how to measure this. Can you enlighten me?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have not, and I will admit I'm not sure how to measure this. Can you enlighten me?
It's very simple.
Measure the case length.
measure the amount of bullet that goes into the case (typically to the crimp groove).
Subtract that amount and mark the case.
Fill the case with H110 to that mark.
weight that charge, that is your case capacity for that combination of caliber/bullet.

[DougGuy]

H110 doesn't always have to be loaded 100% density, but if you look at the published starting charge weights for a LOT of heavy boolit loads, they give a range, you will chase some of that data only to find that starting weight will never drop below about 75% load density. If you are 80% or 90% of load density, you are probably safe with that powder weight.

The signs you are giving are definitely clues that an over -pressure event occurred. That load is dangerously hot. I would not shoot any more of those, in fact I would pull the boolits and drop back and punt.

An important no no to learn is do not randomly substitute one boolit for another just because the loading manual lists X grains of powder for a certain style boolit that weighs the same. You have to measure (if you have the same boolit in hand, if not look it up on the internet) the exact boolit, find it's length overall, determine by subtracting the part you can see, what remains is the amount of boolit that is below the case mouth.

THIS PART is what you have to make sure you don't seat a boolit deeper, lessening the case capacity, raising the load density, and consequently, pressure.

If you have two very different boolits, say one full wadcutter of cast alloy, and a jacketed hollowpoint, each boolit close in weight to the other, as long as the BASE of the boolits are seated to the same depth in the case, which leaves each boolit the same case capacity under the boolit, then it would be fair to say that using the same powder charge, same primer, same crimp, etc, would be a safe practice.

This is called "extrapolating" when you take load data from one published load, and you take those same values and apply them to a different load, then by comparison you find the differences in the math, and you see if you can either correct the differences, or if the differences are not a significant concern.

[DougGuy]

Now for a kick in the shin with H110. After all I have learned, been taught, about not downloading H110, I just recently started loading 220gn subs for a 300 AAC AR, with 220gr HPBT bullets. The published charge weight of H110 is 9.2gn, but the case is only half filled or less, to the base of the bullet. So now what kind of load density do we have? 45% maybe? Certainly had me scratching my head, but the loads I put up work great.

[turtlezx]

dang 38grs of 110 !! my wrist hurts just thinking about it
must make the 44mag feel like a 22

[Rourke67]

The signs you are giving are definitely clues that an over -pressure event occurred. That load is dangerously hot. I would not shoot any more of those, in fact I would pull the boolits and drop back and punt.
Yep. I will definitely be pulling them and re-loading them using the Speer data provided above by kerplode.

[Rourke67]

dang 38grs of 110 !! my wrist hurts just thinking about it
must make the 44mag feel like a 22

It definitely has a lot of recoil, but it has a built in compensator, so it isn't painful recoil.
Honestly, it's no worse than an uncompensated 44mag... maybe not even as bad.

You can also shoot 45 Colt in the 460 revolver... Even "hot" 45 Colt - "Ruger Only" Loads feel like 22LR in that big, heavy, compensated revolver.

[Rourke67]

It's very simple.
Measure the case length.
measure the amount of bullet that goes into the case (typically to the crimp groove).
Subtract that amount and mark the case.
Fill the case with H110 to that mark.
weight that charge, that is your case capacity for that combination of caliber/bullet.

That makes sense. Thank you for explaining it for me!

[Rapier]

The admonition of not reducing loads apply to their loads, developed in their test lab with their test bed, not to your loads derived from a guess by you. Your guess is and was obviously wrong, your are over pressure for at least your gun, bullet and powder combination. So adjust for your combination by reducing the powder charge, until the primers are rounded and the fired cases are no longer sticky. A sticky fired case with flat primers is telling you, the load and gun combination is over pressure.
Suggest you reduce the assumed powder charge by 10% and try again in that gun, with 3 rounds only for a pressure check.

My match loads for the 357 Mag start with a load 20% lower than my ram load using H-110. That may answer your question about reducing H-110 powder charges using the same bullet and weight. H-110 loads can be reduced, however it is a learning curve about just how much, with what bullet weights, what crimp and what primer type. I use heavy bullets with a heavy taper crimp and rifle primers, plus I developed the loads from the bottom up as an increased load.

[Tatume]

I don't know about the Speer Deepcurl bullet, but I suspect it is too soft. See the Hodgdon web site for reliable, pressure-tested loading data

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

Freedom Arms has this to say about bullet selection for the 454 Casull cartridge.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Freedom Arms web site:
An important fact to remember while loading above 1400 F.P.S..
The construction of the bullet is very important. The intent of the final loaded round is also important, and needs to be considered also. Most commercially made pistol bullets available today are designed for expansion at velocities below 1400 F.P.S. Using bullets above this velocity results in poor accuracy, because the bullets can not withstand the higher pressures generated at these higher velocities. The deformation of the bullets base when fired results in poor accuracy. The higher velocities also cause bullet jacket separation and bullet weight loss, during uncontrolled expansion. When the pressure is high enough the jacket could separate from the bullet in the cylinder, or in flight.
ALSO ANOTHER IMPORTANT FACT IS, THE FASTER THE VELOCITY AND THE SOFTER THE BULLET, THE QUICKER THE FORCING CONE AREA IN THE BARREL WILL WEAR OUT.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I am loading 460 S&W Magnum with H110 and Speer Deepcurl 300gr JHP bullets.

I couldn't find load data for this particular Bullet, but my Lee load manual showed a starting load of 38gr of H110 for a 300gr XTP, so I used that.

After shooting these they all showed flattened primers and some of them stuck the cases in the cylinders.
That leads me to believe that I should reduce the powder charge, but I've always been warned not to reduce loads of H110 below the minimum charge.
What are your thoughts?

I had written out a lengthy response on load data extrapolation, but have changed my approach. Others have made reasonable comments there.

First, data substitution was made. This is often OK, but needs to be done in parallel w/ judgement and experience.
It is sometimes necessary, it can be done reliably, and sometimes it is OK going further from substitution to outright creation can be OK, BUT a good bit of experience & judgement should be leveraged in many cases. I suppose it is how a person really learns.

"Stuck the cases in the cylinders": Cylinder Chambers; and this is Never a good thing. Stop Immediately whenever this is seen.
There is pressure variation that can become extreme in higher than max loading conditions. One sticky case may produce a gun that goes to the shop when fired w/ the next round with the same load.

You really are not asking for a Reduced load for W296/H110 (They are Identical powders - I know this for a fact from many sources, including a friend & former Olin employee who set up powder mills) when you are asking for an Appropriate starting charge for a different bullet.
What you are asking for is an estimate of a charge range for the other bullet. While this could be viewed as a reduction from the charge you already attempted, these are different things.

The Hornady manual shows a starting charge of 31.1 gr W296, 33.4 gr H110 w/ 300 XTP in 460 Smith.
(NOTE: ~ 7% change w/ Identical powder for start load -- this really illuminates differences in Powder Lots, and Should put to bed "...completely unsafe to reduce W296/H110 below start load..." comments. This is NOT a recommendation to further reduce W296/H110 data, simply a comment that Powder Lot variability is a fact of life, and that small reductions are Very Unlikely to make a person's day go completely awry when using W296/H110. The pressure testing that is done by component manufacturers is very unlikely done w/ powder lot extremes being selected.)

Hornady made the 300 XTP bullet, and did testing. If LEE states a much higher starting charge w/ W296/H110 & 300 XTP, they are simply Wrong.

If using data for a different component, it is best to go to the resource for that component, not another.
The LEE manual is a good resource, but funny in some ways. I think it is in that manual that there is a comment made along the lines of '... a 180 gr bullet is not necessarily the same as another 180 gr bullet...', they reprint data from different sources Displaying that, but then the format can lead one to believe that substitution is hunky dory. Might be, might not.

Final comment: Double check any data published by any manufacturer. Many manuals contain Some editing/data entry error.
This is but one place where a knowledge of burning rate comes in handy. If you see a pair of powders in load data that sit right next to each other in a burn rate chart, and some manual says the charge for one is 10 or 15% more than the other - Get Suspicious about an Error having been made & cross reference that to another edition of the same manual, or another manual entirely.

[Castaway]

H110 does best with 100% or nearly 100% load density. Heavy bullets and heavy crimps help it develop adequate pressure for reliable and repeatable performance. If you omit one of the three, likelihood of squid loads go up drastically

[pcmacd]

Rourke67 Welcome to the forum. Sorry I have not used any reduced loads containing H110 but I know many others have and I am sure are willing to help you out.

H110 comes out of the same machines as W296 - they are identical propellants.

My Winchester reloading manual EMPHATICALLY STATES that you DO NOT REDUCE the recommended loads for W296.

~~~~~
That being said, if you are getting difficult extraction it certainly would not hurt to reduce a couple of grains and see where that gets you.

It wouldn't hurt to weigh your bullets, either. Just a few.

I'm just sayin'...

...

[Photog]

I ran the load through Quickload: and its says that you are still safe at 38gr at 2.150" OAL with 40k psi your max is 61931psi for 460mag. Drops considerable in pressure with every .05 of extra length, which tells me that the powder is at its near complete burn point. QL says that it is at 98.86% burn, so H110 is *just* about fully burnt. Now QL is not perfect, but I've got enough experience to say that looking at the graph and the data, I think your loads are too short, or the bullet is seated too deep, or you have something else going on like a mislabeled bullet or powder, or you have mismeasured powder.
The 38gr load should be getting you 1950fps, and i can say that trying to reload magnum cartridges without a chronograph is kinda dangerous.
As for w296/h110, the internet says that its a kaboom factory, Hodgdon has no such warning on their website or product labeling. Many download H110 successfully, and many claim that they can create a SEE at will using the right combination of dance moves.
My .02 = double check your components, measurements and OAL before condemning the H110.

[Kosh75287]

The recommendations that I remember about W296 was to not reduce the max load by more than 3%. Since H110 and W296 are the same propellant with different labels, I'D be very inclined to treat one of them with the same precautions as the other.
If hand-weighing propellant charges and carefully checking cartridge o.a.l./seating depths reveal no obvious problems, then a SLIGHT reduction is likely the way to go.
A 3% reduction from 36.0 gr. is 34.9 gr. I don't think you'd be tempting fate by using a charge weighing 34.8 gr., and you'd be surprised sometimes how much an extra 0.1 gr reduction can do for excessive pressures. I think I'd load 6 rounds at 34.8-34.9/H110 with the projectile you use, and check to see how the primers look. If you are still getting flattening (though likely not as much), reducing by another 0.5 gr. will probably not give rise to erratic ignition, and may give you "normal" looking primers. You can work up from there.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Maximum reduction of W296/H110 of 3% from max load is simply NOT factual.

Look at loading manuals for actual data.
Almost any straight wall pistol case using W296/H110 will have a spread of about 20% from max to start.

Hornady 30 Carbine: ~ 20%, 357 Mag: 15-20%, 357 Max: ~15%, 41 Rem Mag: 15%, 44 Rem Mag: 10- almost 20%, 445 Super: 15%, 45 Colt Ruger data: ~18%, 454: ~10%, 460 Smith: ~ 20%, 480 Ruger: ~ 25%, 475 Linebaugh: ~ 15%.

There can be problems reducing this powder class, and it is related to poor ignition and bullets stuck in barrels & forcing cones.
I have had it happen.

A bullet stuck in a forcing cone from initial primer force and/or the initial ignition should the powder then fail to fully ignite in a smooth progression, can cause a serious issue should the powder reignite due to residual hot spots having formed during the primary initiation.

Some of this tendency can be mitigated by use of a magnum primer, which I do not generally bother with.

Stay with the published data, but it is not true that minimums are 3% from max loadings.
There is more variability than that in powder lots of W296/H110.

BTW: AA#9, WC820, PP300MP, WC297 -- all right there w/ same tendencies due to near identical specification.
1680 (WC, WW, Accurate Arms) isn't that much different either in terms of the construction and ignition characteristics, though it is notably slower buring.

[justindad]

<snip>

If you have two very different boolits, say one full wadcutter of cast alloy, and a jacketed hollowpoint, each boolit close in weight to the other, as long as the BASE of the boolits are seated to the same depth in the case, which leaves each boolit the same case capacity under the boolit, then it would be fair to say that using the same powder charge, same primer, same crimp, etc, would be a safe practice.


I’ve been successful with that process in the past and I’m sure I’ll do it again. One thing I’ve come to believe is that this process is safer with some powders than others. If you study the 150-160 grain bullets for .357 Magnum in Lyman’s #49 and Lyman’s Cast Bullet #4, you can see that some powders have a wide range in max allowable charges and other powders have a very tight range in max allowable charges (compare max charges for AA#9 and HS-6 across multiple bullets). What this suggests is that, for some powders, bullet design can have a significant impact on pressure (beyond case capacity and bearing length).
*
So when extrapolating load data, review max charges for several bullets in the same weight range. If several bullets of the same weight have very different max charges, then the risk of an overpressure in your extrapolated load is higher. That is why I would rather extrapolate with HS-6 than with AA#9 in .357 Mag.