Auto Repair Bill Sticker Shock!

[Idaho45guy]

I bought a 2003 Subaru last weekend from an elderly couple that stopped driving when Covid hit. Legacy Outback wagon with 265k miles. My son-in-law is a Subaru fan and said it looked like it needed CV Joints, a new timing belt, fluids changed, and a detail. $1200. Couldn't pass it up. Subarus are worth their weight in gold around here and anything under $6-7k is very high miles and suspect repair history. Same as this one, but for $1200.

319972

Bought it, drove it into town, and really liked it! Took it to the gas station and filled the tank with ethanol-free gas, then was driving it to the car wash to degrease the engine and get the grime off when it suddenly died in traffic. Couldn't restart it. It would sort of start and just stumble. Figured it was just a clogged fuel filter from the last of the old gas.

I towed it to the most reputable shop in town that my family had used before and they said they were booked solid until December, but would at least try and diagnose it and see what it needs.

I stopped by yesterday and talked to the mechanic. He said it needed new head gaskets, timing belt, fuel pump, CV Joints, axle stub shaft, all new brakes and rotors, couple of dashboard lightbulbs replaced, and a couple of other little things.

I was adding it up in my head and figured around $3500. Nope. Over $6,000!

I told him I was reasonably capable of repairs and he suggested I do everything except the timing belt and head gaskets. He's a Subaru guy and said he uses special head gaskets and that not getting the new belt on correctly will destroy the motor.

I checked around and his charges are inline with what repairs go for these days. Just incredible! At least he gives a 10% veteran's discount.

[Nobade]

With Subarus of that era, you can pretty much expect to need to do head gaskets. And to pull the engine to do the job. Look into using WRX head gaskets, they won't fail. It's not that bad of a job but you do need to be prepared for it.

[barnabus]

id sell it and cut my losses

[dverna]

That sucks but where can you buy a decent used car for under $8k?

If the rest of the car is in good shape, I would make the investment.

[brokeasajoke]

Head gaskets are normally $1200-1500 around here. Axles are $100-150 per. But, now it's probably good until the end of its useful life.

[Lloyd Smale]

id look at it logicaly. look around your area and see what it would sell for. i wouldnt put any more than that into it. granted if its worth 8k and you have 10k into it you probably will run longer reliably because you did all that work but i still wouldnt put more into it then its worth. id rather cut my losses and try to get my money back parting it out

[Sasquatch-1]

The wife bought a 2004 Forrester brand new. Within the first 50,000 or 60,000 we had to replace the head gasket. We haven't had any problems with that since. Timing belt needs changing every 100,000 miles. As mentioned, if it goes the engine usually goes. The biggest problem we have had is we have gone through several rear bearing. And my wife's biggest complaint is the drivers side seat warmer has stopped working. We will be hitting the 200,000, mile mark in the next couple of months.

[Martin Luber]

That’s the laundry list, what’s needed just to make it start?

[georgerkahn]

256,000 miles on it! Wowsers!!! My wife was in need of a new car -- her Ford Fusion was at the point where monthly repairs were sure to, in near future, be similar -- if not more -- than payments :). We went to a dealer she had dealt with for years, and he had two units of interest - and almost made us chuckle with the bovine excrement pouring forth from his mouth. He actually said that with the Auto Strike no cars will be available in but a very few months (hey -- we're taking used cars!), and, the topper -- his mother has exact same model Ford as he was showing and that she professes it to be the best car she's ever had!
We went next door, just for kicks and giggles, to a Suburu dealer where she test drove and fell in love with a 2024 Suburu Legacy Limited! It took a week to get finances in line, and after that week she drove it home! 319973319974
I just hope we are as lucky vis mileage as your prior-Suburu car owner was: again, 256,000 miles! The price -- including all those "added/hidden" charges came to $38,640.50 US dollars. (Yeah -- that alllmost $3,000.00 sales tax :( :( :(, too).
We also had sticker shock!!!

[trebor44]

ROI - return on investment. Hard to justify in some cases and in others it is the way to go. Any car or truck should go 200k plus. Used cars with less than 100k should be researched for mx. flood damage etc. and price. Sometimes it is better to cut your losses, other times consider the ROI! Head gasket issues are not unknown in many models of imports (including the luxuries)!

[Rapier]

Got a "nice" little old couple, up the highway from us, that buy and sell used cars, SUVs and PU trucks, have one "only driven to the grocery store on Saturday" at a time, in their front yard, really obvious to me that they are running a light drag and baiting up the unwary off the highway. Been doing this now for over 10 years, that I know of. State has not caught them yet.

One thing about any kind of sharpie, they only get older, but do not change their spots.

[Soundguy]

wow? are these prone to head gasket failures? why?

I routinely work on tractors from the 50's and only do the head gasket if they need valve work... meaning I have a bunch of 70 year old tractors with the original head gasket...

[DougGuy]

id look at it logicaly. look around your area and see what it would sell for. i wouldnt put any more than that into it. I'd rather cut my losses and try to get my money back parting it out

You could very likely get more for the front clip than you paid for the whole car. Doors bring a premium. Got any idea what the windshield would cost to replace? North of $400!

Call a salvage yard and ASK for a windshield to fit the car and see what the junkyard wants for one. see how much they want for a door or front clip.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup

[kerplode]

wow? are these prone to head gasket failures? why?

I routinely work on tractors from the 50's and only do the head gasket if they need valve work... meaning I have a bunch of 70 year old tractors with the original head gasket...

Yes. Seems to be a combination of ****ty design and ****ty materials. There are much worse things that can, and routinely do, go wrong with Subaru engines, though.

My rule is to repair a vehicle until the cost of a single repair exceeds the current value of said vehicle, at which point it is sold/scrapped. I think you basically already paid what it's worth, so if it were me, I'd cut my losses and dump it.

[centershot]

wow? are these prone to head gasket failures? why?

I routinely work on tractors from the 50's and only do the head gasket if they need valve work... meaning I have a bunch of 70 year old tractors with the original head gasket...

Yes, they are, but having owned 9 of them now I expect at least 100K miles before they fail.

kerplode said:

"Yes. Seems to be a combination of ****ty design and ****ty materials. There are much worse things that can, and routinely do, go wrong with Subaru engines, though."

It's not a matter of *****ty materials. The design of the horizontally opposed engine is the culprit. The engine "rocks" left to right as it is running, that rocking motion causes the gasket to compress and expand over and over and over. Think about how many revolutions your engine makes while you're cruising down the road........hundreds of millions of times. All my Subaru's have gone 250 K miles before I sold them, timing belts and gaskets replaced at 100 K and move on down the road!

[redriverhunter]

I drive a 1998 dodge ram and 1998 toyota tacoma. I gripe when I have to put money into them. Then I remind myself they are paid for. I had to put new tire on the tacoma that cost me 600, on a truck that should be worth about 3500 or maybe more. If I can go 2 months and not have to put any money in it, its a win for me. I do not take the trucks on long trips, they do what I need them too. The way I look at is this once the car is paid off, as long as I can drive it, to get what I put into it I win. I think when I purchased the toyota I had a payment of a round 300 a month. I will need to drive it for 2 more months to brake even again and any time after 2 months is a win. On a side note my wife drives newer cars (life is easier that way) about 3 months ago someone backed into the right headlight area over 3k in damages between the headlight bubber and body work.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

For the last 20+ years, when I go looking to buy a car, I'm looking at cars with over 200Kmi, that's what I can afford. Since this is how I do things, I always keep my ears open about what makes/models last 300K and what doesn't.

I hear more stories from random owners about Subaru's and costly repairs when they are at or over 200K, than other imports. Add to that, my Brother's wife has driven Subaru's for 30+ years and usually gets about 150k to 200K on them, then sells them when a major repair is needed, and sells it cheap. My Brother's last one(just a couple months ago), I think it was 2011, and had 150K on it when engine went bad, sold at auction for $465. I have no idea if my Brother has regular maintenance done or not? Now, I realize this anecdotal evidence is no proof of anything, but it's been enough for me to have always avoided Subaru's.

Thanks centershot, I didn't know this...Makes sense.

SNIP>>>

It's not a matter of ******* materials. The design of the horizontally opposed engine is the culprit. The engine "rocks" left to right as it is running, that rocking motion causes the gasket to compress and expand over and over and over. Think about how many revolutions your engine makes while you're cruising down the road........hundreds of millions of times. All my Subaru's have gone 250 K miles before I sold them, timing belts and gaskets replaced at 100 K and move on down the road!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

I stopped by yesterday and talked to the mechanic. He said it needed new head gaskets, timing belt, fuel pump, CV Joints, axle stub shaft, all new brakes and rotors, couple of dashboard lightbulbs replaced, and a couple of other little things.
Myself, I'd fix whatever it needs to make it run good enough to sell, and cut your loses.
OR,
if you have the space and like dealing with people, consider parting it out, you'll probably triple your money.

[Winger Ed.]

My Dad called it a car's 'mid life crisis' when those sort of things all came due.

I'd get or borrow a GOOD code reader if ya don't have one.
More often than not, the car will tell you what's wrong with it.
Another thing is look around on it, you may have had squirrels or rats chew through a wire somewhere.

I'd get it running and go from there.
I've changed a couple timing belts on other 4 & 6 cyl. cars. It's no big deal if you read a decent shop manual
2-3 times first, then go at it step by step working on the concept that the folks that wrote the book
really do know more about it than you do.

[elmacgyver0]

wow? are these prone to head gasket failures? why?

I routinely work on tractors from the 50's and only do the head gasket if they need valve work... meaning I have a bunch of 70 year old tractors with the original head gasket...

That's because the engines made out of good old cast iron.

[30calflash]

Head gaskets and axles along with wheel bearing replacement are common on these. I work at a Subaru shop and it's pretty common for all the above. HG issues much less with 2010 and newer but can happen if it overheats.

IMHO the 2000-2004 Legacy's, Outbacks and Baja's were built like tanks, kind of like older Volvos. High mileage, poor maintenance and in the NE rust is killing them off rapidly. There's 5 or 6 of them in the yard that are parts vehicles due to that.

If the car isn't leaving a trail when you drive it down the road you can live with the gasket leak for awhile, if it's an oil leak. A friend's leaks enough to coat the underside pretty well and runs great, just put a ton of suspension work into it.

Truthfully, have the shop or another just get it running. Might be the fuel pump something like that.

OR the timing belt let go and yeah, it's valves, re surface the heads, new gaskets (OEM Subaru Turbo gaskets!!) everything new on the front of the motor, water pump, all the idlers and belt. Cam and crank seals also. May as well do it right while the engine is out of the car.

Before you do that check for heavy rust, rear suspension crossmember and control arms go bad. Areas where the rear control arm bolts in are susceptible also. No sense fixing something that has seen better days.

[john.k]

Whats killed head gasket life is the asbestos ban .....the most useful substance known,if only people would have taken a bit of care around it............anyhoo,the gasket in my diesel pickup started leaking coolant into the oil....to get the job done was over $4000.......the cylinder head service wanted $1000 for an exchange head .....so ,I bought a new Chinese made head ,everything included except cam,for $700 delivered.....That was 6 years ago..........and I sold the original head for $300.

[Idaho45guy]

Head gaskets and axles along with wheel bearing replacement are common on these. I work at a Subaru shop and it's pretty common for all the above. HG issues much less with 2010 and newer but can happen if it overheats.

IMHO the 2000-2004 Legacy's, Outbacks and Baja's were built like tanks, kind of like older Volvos. High mileage, poor maintenance and in the NE rust is killing them off rapidly. There's 5 or 6 of them in the yard that are parts vehicles due to that.

If the car isn't leaving a trail when you drive it down the road you can live with the gasket leak for awhile, if it's an oil leak. A friend's leaks enough to coat the underside pretty well and runs great, just put a ton of suspension work into it.

Truthfully, have the shop or another just get it running. Might be the fuel pump something like that.

OR the timing belt let go and yeah, it's valves, re surface the heads, new gaskets (OEM Subaru Turbo gaskets!!) everything new on the front of the motor, water pump, all the idlers and belt. Cam and crank seals also. May as well do it right while the engine is out of the car.

Before you do that check for heavy rust, rear suspension crossmember and control arms go bad. Areas where the rear control arm bolts in are susceptible also. No sense fixing something that has seen better days.

Thanks! The car started right up after I dumped in 5-gallons of ethanol-free fuel. No smoke or other issues. My son-in-law used a fogging oil mixture to spray in the cylinders before starting to avoid ring damage.

It was running rough at first, but let it idle for about 40 minutes, then I drove it 5 miles into town. By the time I had stopped at a parts store and ran around town for about 20 minutes, it was running great and I loved how it drove. It was only when I filled the tank all the way that it started cutting out and died and acted like it wasn't getting fuel.

So, if the fuel pump gets replaced, it will run and drive fine.

Car is rust-free as we don't salt the roads around here, hence the popularity of Subarus and snow tires.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd pull the fuel filter line, turn on the key for a second first to see if the pump is working or not,
then put on a new fuel filter before I pulled the tank & changed the pump.
It might just have some crud in the tank from sitting so long, then got stirred around from driving it.

Something I learned from working on boats--
If I was working on a old boat that hadn't been started & run for a long time,
If there was 5 gallons of old gas in the tank, and I added 5 gallons of fresh gas, then I had 10 gallons of bad gas.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Got a quote for my KIA Rio 4 cyl sedan to replace the spark plugs and ingition coil - $1,316 - wow!

[dverna]

Got a quote for my KIA Rio 4 cyl sedan to replace the spark plugs and ingition coil - $1,316 - wow!

That is crazy!!

[Winger Ed.]

Got a quote for my KIA Rio 4 cyl sedan to replace the spark plugs and ingition coil - $1,316 - wow!

That'd be around $850.oo USD.
Even if the plugs & individual coils are $100. each, that's still pretty strong.


They've changed them, but years ago,
Ford had spark plugs that could sometimes break off when you tried to change them.
There was a special tool to get the broken piece out, but if that didn't work, you'd have to pull the cyl. head.
There was horror stories of people being charged $4-5,000. USD for changing a set of V8 spark plugs if a few broke off.

I learned about this when one of mine broke. I was able to get the end out of the head with the special tool,
if it didn't come out, or fell into the engine-- I would have been looking at the pulling the head.

[30calflash]

Good to hear you got it started, yeah bad fuel will wreak havoc on a lot of stuff, especially newer vehicles. Drain/dump what you can, add a dry gas and fill with premium or the best fuel you can get.

Ethanol free, last time I saw that was a trip west 9 years back. Got it whenever I could.

[Sasquatch-1]

That'd be around $850.oo USD.
Even if the plugs & individual coils are $100. each, that's still pretty strong.


They've changed them, but years ago,
Ford had spark plugs that could sometimes break off when you tried to change them.
There was a special tool to get the broken piece out, but if that didn't work, you'd have to pull the cyl. head.
There was horror stories of people being charged $4-5,000. USD for changing a set of V8 spark plugs if a few broke off.

I learned about this when one of mine broke. I was able to get the end out of the head with the special tool,
if it didn't come out, or fell into the engine-- I would have been looking at the pulling the head.

I think they started using them in 2004. I have an "03" and it has the old style plugs. I understand they redesigned the plug to eliminate the problem. My opinion, it should have been a recall procedure.

[elmacgyver0]

Something else you may want to do if it's not already done is replace the anti-freeze.
Old anti-freeze becomes acidic and eats (corrodes) aluminum parts.

[Winger Ed.]

My opinion, it should have been a recall procedure.

My '06 F250 with a triton 5.4 had them.
I only broke one, but it was so far back up in there-
I thought I was going to have to take out the seat and go through the floor to get to it.

If they made it a warranty recall-
by the time Ford changed out so many heads when their service folks broke thousands plugs off- they'd have gone bankrupt.

[Kestrel4k]

I'd pull the fuel filter line, turn on the key for a second first to see if the pump is working or not,
then put on a new fuel filter before I pulled the tank & changed the pump.
It might just have some crud in the tank from sitting so long, then got stirred around from driving it. [...]
OP, the nice thing about your 2003 is that the fuel filter is right under the hood. Halfway through the 2004 model year, they moved the fuel filter to inside the fuel tank or some such nonsense. Ask me how I know. :-/

[CLAYPOOL]

Here's what i am getting ready to do. Bought a cheap electric fuel pump from Amazon. Added fuel line on both ends. TREAD DOWN INTO TANK and use separate battery to power it. Pump old fuel out into 5 gal bucket. BE CAREFUL.. vapor is DEADLY EXPLOSIVE..it will gather around your feet. Got a 1 ton dump to do this too. I poured 5 gallons into a very low hour MILLER Portable welded 5 to 7 years ago. We are going to unhook the fuel line going up to Carb and suck out what we can. ADD more new fuel and hang from Bobcat and shake. REPEAT as above for a cycle or 3. START OUTSIDE IN THE OPEN. Don't want a new pole barn...

[Hannibal]

And the Feds are worried about gunpowder.

Just sayin'.

If it's truly stale gasoline and particularly if has an ethanol content it's gonna be more like diesel fuel. It will readily burn but without some heat or atomization it's not explosive.

[fastdadio]

Good to hear you got it started, yeah bad fuel will wreak havoc on a lot of stuff, especially newer vehicles. Drain/dump what you can, add a dry gas and fill with premium or the best fuel you can get.

Ethanol free, last time I saw that was a trip west 9 years back. Got it whenever I could.
Find yourself on this list.
https://www.pure-gas.org/
I run corn free gas in everything except my daily drivers. It makes a big difference in the small engines/yard tools.

[MaryB]

Problem with the ethanol free gas around here is it has off road additives that will destroy a catalytic converter. I can't even find 93 octane I should run in my car...

[Winger Ed.]

If I remember, the old school Leaded gas would stop them right up.

[Hannibal]

Problem with the ethanol free gas around here is it has off road additives that will destroy a catalytic converter. I can't even find 93 octane I should run in my car...

I've never heard of 'off road additives' for any type of fuel besides dye in diesel because of the lack of road maintenance taxes. I presume you mean in Minnesota when you say around here. I'll have to do some 'net searches when time allows. That sounds strange to me.

I have heard it's possible to purchase fuel with additives to prevent valve seat wear in old engines that didn't have hardened valve seats. Perhaps that's what is available to you locally?

Edit to add - it's been a few years since I've seen any of that for sale, so it might be completely unavailable now. I'm not sure.

[Winger Ed.]

Here, the off road, or 'red' Diesel is different that what the gas station sells.
It has a higher Sulfur content, and actually runs better and is more 'powerful' than the yellow/green stuff.

Of course, when a State Trooper pushes that clear hose down in your truck's tank and pulls it up
with red fuel in it, the fine makes your knees get weak.

[brokeasajoke]

Here, the off road, or 'red' Diesel is different that what the gas station sells.
It has a higher Sulfur content, and actually runs better and is more 'powerful' than they yellow/green stuff.


All the same in our area just one is red for tax and the other is not.

[Hannibal]

All the same in our area just one is red for tax and the other is not.

Exactly right. I don't think the EPA will allow the high sulfur diesel to be distributed anywhere these days.

[Handloader109]

Didn't know how much the coat was. Daughter was lookin at a 2013 with about 120k on it for 6k. Sounds like something major is needed.....

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[MaryB]

I've never heard of 'off road additives' for any type of fuel besides dye in diesel because of the lack of road maintenance taxes. I presume you mean in Minnesota when you say around here. I'll have to do some 'net searches when time allows. That sounds strange to me.

I have heard it's possible to purchase fuel with additives to prevent valve seat wear in old engines that didn't have hardened valve seats. Perhaps that's what is available to you locally?

Edit to add - it's been a few years since I've seen any of that for sale, so it might be completely unavailable now. I'm not sure.

its dyed for starters and yes, additives to replace the lead...

[DocSavage]

I looked into the head gasket problem with subaru engines turned out the gasket design was prone to separation of a coating on it. There are after market gasket that are a much better design. I love my 2019 Outback btw.

[murf205]

That sucks but where can you buy a decent used car for under $8k?

If the rest of the car is in good shape, I would make the investment.

They can be found but ya' gotta; look hard. I bought my 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee for $4800 out the door in Atlanta. It had 132K miles and other than a small tear in the drivers seat cushion, it was darned near perfect AND it had 5 brand new Michelin tires-even the spare. The inline 6 4.0 L Jeep motor is known for 300K if you service it properly.320258 If you part out the Suburu, look for a 4.0 Jeep Cherokee or Grand Cherokee with lowest miles. Just my observations any way. Murf
BTW, the 5.2L jeep motors from that period are known for running hot and blowing head gaskets too. 4.0L-no problems I know off.

[MaryB]

They can be found but ya' gotta; look hard. I bought my 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee for $4800 out the door in Atlanta. It had 132K miles and other than a small tear in the drivers seat cushion, it was darned near perfect AND it had 5 brand new Michelin tires-even the spare. The inline 6 4.0 L Jeep motor is known for 300K if you service it properly.320258 If you part out the Suburu, look for a 4.0 Jeep Cherokee or Grand Cherokee with lowest miles. Just my observations any way. Murf
BTW, the 5.2L jeep motors from that period are known for running hot and blowing head gaskets too. 4.0L-no problems I know off.

Get extra window regulators from the junkyard, you are gonna need them!

[brokeasajoke]

Old mechanics trick is to black magic the window channels and the cable if it is cable operated. I've had two liberty regulators go bad oddly in the back.

[murf205]

Get extra window regulators from the junkyard, you are gonna need them!

You mead the track its self?

[MaryB]

You mead the track its self?

The parts that move the window up and down, ESPECIALLY if electric windows!

[Sasquatch-1]

As far as windows breaking, I had a 1964 Ford Galaxy that had manual windows. There was a little plastic clip about the size of a nickel that held the rod that raised and lowered the window to the bottom of the window. That clip would constantly break. I kept spares in the glove box and got to the point where I could replace it in about 5 minutes.

[murf205]

I had a 92 Ford E-150 Club Wagon that had elect windows and the little gearbox had 6 plastic balls in it which,of course, got ground up in the metal gears. I replaced them with 6 1/4" hex nuts with the corners ground off and never had another problem.
when it comes to auto manufactures, if cheap is good cheaper is better...for them.