why-the-masses-fail-at-shooting-cast

[mrbill2]

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/why-the-masses-fail-at-shooting-cast/

[Recycled bullet]

I've seen some automotive repairs that look like that [emoji1787]

[Kosh75287]

GEE-whiz!!!

[jdgabbard]

I'm not surprised about this at all. I watched a video last night that featured a guy ranting about how everyone's lube recipes are wrong...except for his. And then went on to show off a VERY basic lube recipe that is very close to a recipe I found nearly 15yrs ago to be inadequate for anything but slow pistol rounds. The guy in the video also went out of his way to make several jabs at other's and their loading techniques....

Now I'm not saying that he didn't know what he's talking about. But I've found that a great many people involved in the various aspects of shooting sports think they're the subject matter expert, when in reality they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Psychology has a term for this called the Dunning-Kruger Effect (see below). In my experience, there are a LOT of people who claim to know what they're talking about that are residing on Mt. Stupid....

319948

[phantom22]

319950

[35 Rem]

As Jed Clampette would say, "Welllllll Doggies!"

[super6]

319950

That reminds of an old joke, When we can see eye to eye I'm done!

[stubshaft]

When I first started casting and shooting bullets in the 60's there was very little mainstream information available to educate a newbie. Yes, the Lyman manuals were supposedly available, but not in my area.

My first bullets were cast from a Lee 150 gr. 30 caliber mold (that STILL casts great bullets) for my 30/30. I never knew there was such a thing as a "M" die and had no concept of the importance of expanding the case neck and proper neck tension. My loaded ammo looked exactly like the examples in the pictures. Load data was from the old tan colored IMR powder chart and my powder charges were what would be normal for jacketed bullets. Man, I wore out a number of bore brushes out scrubbing lead out of my barrel.

But, through trial and error, I was able to overcome those hurdles and finally manufacture and shoot some accurate cast bullet loads.

[Land Owner]

Many "fail" believing, at first, that the velocity of a cast boolit should be at or about its counterpart jacketed bullet velocity. Max speed is their "thing". The frustration of "slow 'em down", "slug the barrel", "fit is King", and getting the lead out in shooting cast dawns on them later. A little "light reading" about cast boolits will generally dispel the myths...but who reads anymore?

[jimb16]

The more I learn, the more I need to learn! Every time I think I have something figured out, fate throws another curve my way!

[poppy42]

I find it really amazing how many so-called experts there are out there making YouTube videos.lol The day I stop learning is the day I stop breathing! And just because you’ve been doing something for a gazillion years doesn’t mean that you know what you’re talking about. I have learned from people much older than me, and much younger than me.

[deces]

If by chance that loader is reading this, I have a few words. Don't give up.

[405grain]

I've met people at the range that are astonished that I'm shooting cast bullets. They'll tell me how horribly inaccurate cast bullets are, how they'll smear lead all over inside the bore, and what a mess they are to reload. When I strike up a conservation with them I learn what I already guessed. They only tried using cast bullets once. They don't cast their own, but bought the bullets from an online vendor or from a gun shop. When I asked them if they flaired the neck before seating, or did the seating and crimping as two separate operations I get the blank stare and confused silence. When I ask them what load they were using they tell me it's the same one they use for jacketed bullets. When I ask them it they were shooting gas checked or plain based in their rifle they say "whats a gas check?" Then, and this always happens, when I offer to give them some education about shooting cast bullets, I get cut short with their declaration that cast bullets are crap, and that they'll never use them again. Once, while one of these guys was walking away I asked him what he did to get the leading out of his barrel. He said "I sold the gun."

[NSB]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

Many "fail" believing, at first, that the velocity of a cast boolit should be at or about its counterpart jacketed bullet velocity. Max speed is their "thing". The frustration of "slow 'em down", "slug the barrel", "fit is King", and getting the lead out in shooting cast dawns on them later. A little "light reading" about cast boolits will generally dispel the myths...but who reads anymore?

Yes, this. I have a 44WCF load that I can shoot until the barrel is very hot on my rifle. Basically a case full of Reloder 7 and a 30-1 alloy bullet. No leading in the bore, zero, nada , zilch with a 1,400fps muzzle velocity. I have a friend I shoot with at lever action silhouette matches. He will not try cast bullets because he doesn't have time to be scrubbing lead out of his bore after every match. For me casting bullets is another way to make custom ammunition for my firearm and intended purpose.

[Land Owner]

He will not try cast bullets because he doesn't have time to be scrubbing lead out of his bore after every match. For me casting bullets is another way to make custom ammunition for my firearm and intended purpose.

He has not discovered that "Fit is King" in shooting cast boolits, or he would have learned - there is no leading.

I too appreciate(d) the discovery of casting my own as I could "shoot all day" for practically nothing, compared to jacketed bullet cost, primer and cases being equal. Powder is a little less in cast. Velocity is less, but impact is important to a meat hunter, so a large meplat makes sense.


Meplat (from the French word " méplat " meaning "flat surface of a cylinder") is the technical term for the flat or open tip on the nose of a bullet.

Hunters killed animals (and one another) for "a century" with lead and lead-alloy boolits before the invention of jacketed bullets.

[dondiego]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

The loading of the cast bullets in the picture is the issue. The guy who loaded them does not know how to load cast. He didn't flare the cases prior to seating the bullets. No one is claiming that cast are better than jacketed, although they are just as suitable and accurate in some cartridges and rifles. Cast is definitely less expensive than jacketed. It is a hobby just like fly tying. I pursue both hobbies myself.

[405grain]

NSB: your question is easy to answer. What the masses have failed to do is read the instructions. But, not only that, have also failed to take advise. And when their efforts don't work they make a blanket condemnation of the whole process, ignoring the fact that thousands of other people are having success with it.

Lets put this in fly tying terms. Bubba decides to go fishing. There is a mountain of information in books and the internet all about fly fishing, but Bubba ignores all of it. Instead he goes to the arts & crafts section of a Walmart and buys a pack of colored feathers. Then he superglue's some feathers to a hook. Bubba doesn't bother learning how to cast with a fly rod, so he ends up catching branches from the bank and scaring off fish. In the end he gets frustrated and doesn't catch anything. After this one single experience he loudly proclaims to anyone that will listen (and many that don't want to) that fly fishing is a useless waste of time, and that only losers would keep doing it because it obviously can never catch a fish.

Now just substitute bullet casting for fly fishing and you'll see the problem.

[jdgabbard]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

And I'll add, in addition to the responses from others, that in may ways the quality of a mass produced boolit is not going to be to the level of a home cast. The fact is that many times compromises are made where it concerns commercial cast. A good example of this is 10-15 years ago when the only cast boolits you could get were cast with essentially straight Lino or #2, sized to exact bore diameter, lubed with a very hard wax lube that didn't do it's job and only smoked, and were half beaten to hell and back when they arrived at your door. Sure, there are a LOT more options for commercial cast today, and many of them are fine boolits. But they still do not give you the quality and flexibility of a home cast boolit.

All the other stuff about taking the time learning the hobby and earning your knowledge are also factual. Cast is a VERY different animal to jacketed. It has it's own rules, tricks, and peculiarities. It's not necessarily better or worse in many regards. But can under certain parameters exceed jacketed, or even commercial cast, performance. This has been realized by many more shooters in the last 10-15 years with the buying frenzies than had been in the previous 40-50 years. We truly are living in the golden era of cast boolits....

[TNsailorman]

There is an old saying that I think has value in casting also. You get out of something the effort you put into it. Commercial casters have to maximize their time in order to make a profit. That can lead to shortcuts and other problems. Home casters are usually more interested in quality and put more time and effort into their casting. my .02 anyway, james

[michael.birdsley]

basically, most people are too impatient to shoot cast bulllets and to be fair most people don’t have the time anymore.

i’ll be honest if i didn’t literally live 2 miles from my conservation club range. i may be in the same catogory.

it takes more tinkering when your brand new at it. which, means more trips to the range. however, the reward is greater when you do it get it right. I like diving down rabbit holes. i realized a while back i can’t afford to shoot jacketed bullets in all of my guns. some of my guns though i’ll only shoot jacketed bullets due to the bullets being cheaper IE .243.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[higgins]

I break down found rounds from the range for the lead. Most are 9mm. It's amazing how many PC bullets have the PC scraped off for up to 25 to 50 percent of the bullet circumference, exposing bare lead. This is very common, so I would suggest quite a few are failing because they don't understand properly belling case mouths. An M-die would work wonders for them.

[KenH]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

OK, at this point it doesn't seem anyone has answered the question you asked. You didn't ask what was wrong with the OP's photos, you didn't ask why folks couldn't load good cast bullets. You asked a simple question "What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end?"

My answer (and this is only my opinion" that cast bullets are not "better" per se. They don't shoot faster, nor are they more accurate than jacketed bullets. I started reloading back in the 70's while in college when money was tight. Cast bullets could be loaded less than jacket. At the time "if" I remember correctly jacket bullets were on the order of 10¢ or so each, perhaps only 5¢? While cast was basically free as I could find plenty of wheelweights, lead, linotype, etc for almost no cost, or no cost. The only cost to reload a 30-30, .357, etc was the 1¢ primer and a tad of powder. Back then using NoLox lube the max was around 1600 or so fps - still lots of fun to shoot. Properly loaded my wife's 6mm would hold at 75 yds at one ragged hole with 3 shots.

These days the biggest factor for me is the fun of casting and loading.

[murf205]

When I started to shoot cast, I had to be the luckiest guy ever. An old friend and I bought a Lyman bottom pour and a 2 cvavity 429421 and went at it. Our results were pretty fair for 2 clutzes who only knew how to pull a press handle.
Then I took a deer with that 44 and I was hooked. It is easy to keep reading and learning when it is something that you really like and can see instant gratification in. The people on this site have been a wealth of help along the way. If only algebra had held my attention this well!

[Land Owner]

Having a place to shoot made the difference for me. I live 30-minutes from my land. I make reloads, both cast and jacketed. Using a checklist, I pack everything (multiple guns) into the truck, drive to the property, set up the bench, targets, spotting scopes, etc., shoot, change targets, shoot some more, log the results as it happens, put everything back into the truck, pack out, go home after about 3 hours, unload the truck, clean everything, put everything away, analyze the data, and make plans for the next outing. The data analysis is quite fun and when the result is an extremely accurate shooting iron, even more so! The game never sees the amount of work put into its demise...

[rbuck351]

In my handguns, my home cast boolits work just as well as jacketed bullets and cost less than 1 cent each as opposed to 15 to 25 cents each for jacketed. This allows me to shoot a lot more for the same cost. Some of my rifles also work as well with cast as with jacketed such as my 25/20, 35 rem and 45/70. I don't expect performance much beyond 2000 fps to be equal to jacketed bullets but they work quite well. There are some folks that get good results much higher than that which gives me a goal to work toward. I hope to get there some day.

[georgerkahn]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

WELL SPOKEN (written)!!! I voice similarly, and am questioned often enough to note it when I am asked WHY I regularly spend several hours complementing four U S dollars worth of ingredients (not figuring in oven gas cost, pans, bowls, and the subsequent washing) for me to make/bake a loaf of bread where a similar one may be purchased at Wal*Mart for $3.59 USD? One of my sons ties his own flies, too!
For me, I guess the best word I can conjure is "SATISFACTION". Be it harvesting veggies I started from seed in MY own garden; cutting that first slice of a still-warm loaf of home made (both sourdough and/or yeast) bread; or seeing that hole in the black on a paper target (or fall of a critter target :))... Hey -- I smelted the alloy; I chose the mould; I chose the load; I chose the firearm employed; and... I SEE the results.
SATISFACTION
geo

[phantom22]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

Another way to look at it is for self-sufficiency. Also there is something to be said for practicing the manly arts.

I cast not because I'm trying to make better than jacketed or to push the limits of what is possible, but to keep that skill in my pocket. Someday my life or my family's lives may depend on that skill. I try to have a rudimentary knowledge of how almost everything that I use day to day works. From how a well is dug to how wiring in your house works. If anything it helps you learn about yourself. How many truly know what they are capable of? Not only will doing things like this increase your skill set it can also teach you about your limitations so you know what is beyond your ability to do competently and safely. As we age, our abilities and limitations change. Sometimes cognitively and always physically to some extent.

As to the OP's anecdote, I find it amusing that some people will talk from their most maximum of glutes, rather than saying "I don't know". Do they feel that not knowing makes them somehow lesser and that somehow portraying themselves as King of the Feeble Minded is preferable? I have learned countless things by saying I don't know when I really don't know. Had that fellow simply said he didn't know and struck up a conversation about it he may have come dangerously close to learning something. That may have invalidated his royal status among his peers, so that has to be considered.

[dtknowles]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

The challenge and the self-sufficiency. First it was to save money. I could cast and load my own for a lot less than even reloading store bought plain lead bullets and my bullets were better. There is for me satisfaction of doing something well that other people won't even try. There are some guns that you really need to cast your own bullets for, like a lot of old black powder rifles, not going to always be able to find the right bullet for sale. The self-sufficiency things is not so important for me anymore. I have a lifetime supply of ammo but there have been times when I wondered if ammo would be very hard to come by.
Like catching a fish with a fly you tied, there is a special satisfaction of shooting game or shooting a high score using ammo and bullets you made yourself.
Tim

[Shiloh]

Yikes!!!

Shiloh

[Good Cheer]

Heh, if there is a main problem it is inappropriately designed cartridges.

[GasGuzzler]

I made some mistakes but never anything that ugly. I would have changed something after the first one looked like that.

[charlie b]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

I do both :) Cast bullets and tie flies. I started both due to budget. I could reload cast bullets cheaper over the long run than purchasing bullets.

Same thing with flies. The first time I lost some store bought flies in the bushes frustrated me enough that I bought one of those really cheap vises and tied my own. :)

Over the years all of this became part of my enjoyment of the hobbies. Basically with guns I have three hobbies, shooting, reloading and casting. Then there is also fishing and fly tying. And, yes, each one stands alone. To be 'proficient' in each takes a lot of background education. Fly tying takes a lot of studying of insect life, fish behavior, and the materials used for the flies. Casting takes some metallurgy, lubrication, ballistics and mechanical knowledge. And each has their 'recipes' that is knowledge learned by others and passed on.

And another hobby of mine is restoring old sewing machines. I like taking something that has sat for ages in the back of a closet, basement or attic and making it work like new again. I then donate the machines to a local group. It has led to maintaining machines for a quilting group. And that led to making my own travel bags, motorcycle seats, some upholstery, gun cases, etc. And don't forget the leather holsters and belts :)

Why do any of this? Because you enjoy it!!!

[Bazoo]

Are cast bullets better? No, not better, but they are certainly satisfying to make and use. I enjoy the traditional aspect of cast bullets, the history of bullets is very interesting and cast bullets are a large part of that. It's not cast vs jacketed for me. I prefer cast, but they both have their place.

Having a bullet mould means you can make an unlimited supply of a bullet for your needs. So you never have to worry about supply of a bullet that works well for you.

Cost is a factor. I have scrounged my gear and lead, so my bullets cost me next to nothing.

Having ammunition is very important to me, and being able to make one of the key parts helps me to better supply my needs.

[dtknowles]

oh, and if I only shot factory ammo or used factory bullets I would have less reason to shoot as much as I do developing loads and testing ammo ;-)

Tim

[john.k]

Was at the range shooting cast 44-40s ....... a guy comes up and says .....Stop ,dont shoot any more ...your gun will blow up..........Then he explains that shooting more than five cast bullets is sooo dangerous ,cause the barrel will choke and blow up the gun..........Hey ,I never knew that .

[Winger Ed.]

Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

That's 99% of it.
Plus they don't shoot enough for the learning curve, the time, and initial investment expense to be worth it for them.

If a box of 20 .30-06s and a couple boxes of .45ACP was all I shot in 3-4 years,
I wouldn't bother with reloading much less casting either.

[fiberoptik]

For the same reason some of us prefer a straight razor 🪒 or safety razor over electric . Or muzzleloaders and bows over the latest greatest fastest Magnums.

[Shopdog]

Patience is,or has to be near the top of the list for giving up?

As for JB vs cast.... the amt of tooling required,and the processes involved with jacketed makes them a wee bit too valuable to make mistakes. Don't like your cast? throw it back in the pot. Further,cast when utilizing bullet traps.... well,it's pretty dang easy to collect and remelt.

[Petander]

Before seeing those pics, I sort of thought "it could be expander related".

My biggest problems -and eye openers- were size/expander related. Today even 160 grn 9mm is a breeze.

[Piłsudski]

As a current “non caster”, I have one question. Now please don’t take this wrong, I’m being sincere. What have these “masses” failed to do? I tie my own trout flies and others buy them. We both catch trout. The differences is that they don’t sit at the table hour after hour tying flies and I do. They don’t buy expensive equipment (good hooks, vices, hackles, thread, various tools, etc) and end up with the same results. What is better about cast bullets over jacketed bullets in the end? Again, I tie flies and you guys cast bullets. So, are the flies/bullets better when we make them? I say “no”, but it’s fun to catch a trout on my own fly. It’s not a bigger trout, a better trout, or a better caught trout. It’s just a trout. How about cast bullets? Same end result? Maybe a lot of people just don’t want to put the time in with no better end result.

Respectfully replying to your sincere comments, NSB, you are in error.

While your comments may be pertinent to yourself, and perhaps quite a number of others, they certainly are not pertinent to me at all.

Years ago, when raising four little ones with a stay-at-home Wife who sewed most of the girl's clothes, my choice was not to shoot cast boolits or not shoot cast boolits. It was to shoot cast boolits or not shoot -- at all. So, no, the end results between casting and not casting weren't the same for me.

I bought a Lee mould, a 230 gr 452, bought a Lee 10# bottom pour pot, and a Lee pan lube kit. I paid a penny a primer and figured about a penny for a Unique charge per round -- the same as shooting .22s bought on sale for $10 a brick. My shooting sessions included a 3# coffee can and a trowel. When I finished shooting, I went mining in the berm for lead, which was quite plentiful.

Now the kids are long gone and I'm retired. I saved for retirement by buying moulds, and only have one more to buy.

You may be able to buy hackles and hooks, but pray tell where I will get reasonably priced (for a retiree) projectiles for my 577/450, unless I cast them myself?

Likewise, let me know where reasonably priced projectiles for my 8mm Lebel or 7.5 x 53.5 Swiss 1889 are to be found, if I don't cast them myself. Also, where to find the projectiles needed to fit the varying barrels of Mosin Nagants?

While your statements may be true for some, you should recognize that very few things in this world are a "one size fits all" proposition. People may do silly things, but the fact needs to be faced that people often do what they need to or what is best for them. Your model simply doesn't apply to everyone's situation.

I still cast because it is cost effective. I also cast because it's the only reasonable way to come up with projectiles for what I shoot.

I don't quibble with your views as they apply to you or others; only with your trying to make your life's experiences fit my situation, which you cannot know.

[charlie b]

I think you and NSB are saying the same thing.

The 'masses' don't reload or cast or tie flies. They buy them.

Those of us who reload and cast and tie flies do so for economic reasons and/or the pleasure it gives us. Like you, most of us started these skills because of economic reasons.

You derive pleasure from shooting obsolete guns. I like shooting bullets that I make and I like catching fish on flies that I tie. The 'masses' would walk past one of those and buy the 'black' rifle and a few boxes of ammo, or pick out a few flies from the bin and hit the water.