By volume, or by weight???

[cricco]

Greetings! Ive started making my own BP. It works well! However, I am new to loading BP cartridges, and I get conflicting information regarding weight and volume. I have been loading each case with 50 grains by weight in my .45-70 1884 Trapdoor with a Lee 405 Grain HB boolit. I'm not looking to discuss my load data, as its irrelevant for this discussion. What I need to know, is why are people telling me to load by volume??? I have been weighing out 50 grains, and not using volume. My understanding is that a volume measure simple averages out what would be an accurate AVERAGE WEIGHT. Is this wrong? Why wouldn't weight be more accurate than volume?

[hpbear101]

For real black powder (not substitutes) you can use either or weight vs volume. For consistency stay with the same system for records and your loading process (you can most likely be more consistent for repeatable charges using weight vs volume). This does not apply to most BP substitutes as there is a larger difference between volume and weight so use manufacturers recommendation on those.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbC1XvpY3M
Tom

[1903.colt]

When I load either by weights or volume my only concern is that the base of the bullet is slightly compressing the charge . I also use a thin paper over powder card .

[Don McDowell]

Way back in the 1800’s they weighed charges for the best accuracy.
This volume thing is largely perpetuated by the confusion that came about when Pyrodex first came out.
You can get very good loads by volume but if you go to a different lot of powder the actual weight can change
Same thing can happen when going from one brand of powder to another
As stated above use what works for you.

[Chill Wills]

Greetings! Ive started making my own BP. It works well! However, I am new to loading BP cartridges, and I get conflicting information regarding weight and volume. I have been loading each case with 50 grains by weight in my .45-70 1884 Trapdoor with a Lee 405 Grain HB boolit. I'm not looking to discuss my load data, as its irrelevant for this discussion. What I need to know, is why are people telling me to load by volume??? I have been weighing out 50 grains, and not using volume. My understanding is that a volume measure simple averages out what would be an accurate AVERAGE WEIGHT. Is this wrong? Why wouldn't weight be more accurate than volume?

Your thinking is 100% right.
If it is important enough to your load that you have exactly the same amount of "fuel" in each case, then weighing is the correct method.
Measuring by Volume, with varying amounts of powder (energy) and air (zero energy) making up that volume, results in something less than consistency in each case.

That is not to say that throwing powder charges (volume) can not work well enough to meet a given need. As an example, I use volume to load each cylinder of my cap-and-ball revolvers, which is plenty accurate for my needs.

Lastly, a GRAIN is a unit of weight only. You may have seen ML loading measures (volume) that have graduations marked in grains, which aren't random but approximate.
I hope this help some.

[indian joe]

Greetings! Ive started making my own BP. It works well! However, I am new to loading BP cartridges, and I get conflicting information regarding weight and volume. I have been loading each case with 50 grains by weight in my .45-70 1884 Trapdoor with a Lee 405 Grain HB boolit. I'm not looking to discuss my load data, as its irrelevant for this discussion. What I need to know, is why are people telling me to load by volume??? I have been weighing out 50 grains, and not using volume. My understanding is that a volume measure simple averages out what would be an accurate AVERAGE WEIGHT. Is this wrong? Why wouldn't weight be more accurate than volume?

you are correct - most shooters loading cartridge guns for accuracy weigh their charges - shorter ranges, plinking, cowboy guns ----not so much

[firefly1957]

When loading black powder in a cartridge you always want the same volume so your bullets are seated the same depth and your powder has the same pressure on it as black powder should be loaded slightly compressed. NEVER allow a airgap with black powder it causes a sharp pressure spike and inconsistent results.

Now you have a variable we do not know and that is how dense it your powder most commercial powder actually weighs close to what a black powder measure says . Recently I have been making paper cartridges for a 1859 Sharps and the volumes have been very accurate with the powder actual weight . If your home made powder is the same weight as the volume measure you have done good some can be quite light and are also a bit low on velocity .

When I work up a load I normally drop Black powder though a 36" tube then seat a .2" card wad on that powder with about 40 pounds of force . The lubed bullet is either seated on the wad or a "lube Cookie" is then the bullet . Lube cookies are needed for paper patch more then grooved bullets .
If I dump powder in one of my .50 caliber 3 1/4" cases 110 grains is the correct height to seat a bullet However if dropped though a tube I can fit in 140 grains of the same FG powder and the bullet seats the same .

[Minerat]

I was of the volume measure crowd until.... Indian Joe explained why my original understanding was wrong. i.e. you volume measured BP so if you use something like pyrodex you don't get confused. In short he said to volume measure any BP load I choose and then weigh it. In my case the volume measure came out to within 0.2 grs ± of the number chosen when weighed ie 50 gr v = ± 0.2 of 50 gr. w. So for my front stuffer .54 I volume measure, but for my BPCR .45-2.4 I weigh.

[BLAHUT]

Greetings! Ive started making my own BP. It works well! However, I am new to loading BP cartridges, and I get conflicting information regarding weight and volume. I have been loading each case with 50 grains by weight in my .45-70 1884 Trapdoor with a Lee 405 Grain HB boolit. I'm not looking to discuss my load data, as its irrelevant for this discussion. What I need to know, is why are people telling me to load by volume??? I have been weighing out 50 grains, and not using volume. My understanding is that a volume measure simple averages out what would be an accurate AVERAGE WEIGHT. Is this wrong? Why wouldn't weight be more accurate than volume?

I weigh every load I use in my rifles... I weigh every bullet; all are the same weight in the box; I put a paper card over powder and then a plastic wad under bullet; leaving no air space; acts like a cleaner round; I do this for accuracy; every round in the box weighs the same... pays off at distance...... Volume can change with how cores or fine powder is.

[indian joe]

I was of the volume measure crowd until.... Indian Joe explained why my original understanding was wrong. i.e. you volume measured BP so if you use something like pyrodex you don't get confused. In short he said to volume measure any BP load I choose and then weigh it. In my case the volume measure came out to within 0.2 grs ± of the number chosen when weighed ie 50 gr v = ± 0.2 of 50 gr. w. So for my front stuffer .54 I volume measure, but for my BPCR .45-2.4 I weigh.

Weigh it if you want that last bit of accuracy from your load .......the main issue I have with measured is guys telling others their load is "x" amount grains - when they didnt weigh it and dont specify the measure used ? .......Blackowder is reasonably consistent, most measures are calibrated close enough, load quantities are very forgiving - all in all its not a big deal .....still ....grains is weight NOT volume

[scattershot]

A certain volume of black powder ( or rice, or dirt, or flour) will have a certain weight. Charging by weight is accurate, but since black powder is not as fussy as smokeless, a lot of folks load by volume. Back in the day, I understand that the old timers would just fill a case, seat a bullet, and go shooting.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

For me, by volume. I must start with saying that I regularly shoot lever action silhouette using 44WCF and 357 Magnum black powder loads. I occasionally shoot my Winchester 1886 45-70 Gov't for fun with black powder. ( The 1886 is accurate , powerful and would make an excellent silhouette rifle if I could hold the 11lbs offhand for a match)
I have simply done load development starting with a charge touching the base of the seated bullet, with ever increasing charges keeping the overall length the same thereby increasing compression. So far the most accurate loads have also been the cleanest. How much do the charges weight ? Not a clue.
Now, this has worked for me, with my firearms, bullet, lube, powder......out to 200 meters. Yes , the 44WCF can be accurate out to 200 meters and knock over full size rams.
Anyway, this works for me. What works best for you may be different.

[Kentucky146]

I have heard this like a bad penny that never stops, Volume is weight, DOH no it ah your crazy.. I did not believe it either there is NO WAY... Volume=Weight=Volume I took my favored to use in black powder, poured the volume 50 grains set my scale poured volume on to scale 49.8 grains, I thought I fugged up messed it up threw 4 more and weighed 4 more the average was 48.7 the deviation was like 0.4 grains REALLLLLLYYYYY not enough to support either being wrong or right, I`d be a preacher if we are talking 50 grain volume was like 45 grains at weight but if one is anal or "OCD" I can understand how it would hurt your feelings. In this matter I aint got any feeling to be hurt if ya volume your right if ya weigh still right. Me I volume. Just easier for me, Good Night Irene

[indian joe]

I have heard this like a bad penny that never stops, Volume is weight, DOH no it ah your crazy.. I did not believe it either there is NO WAY... Volume=Weight=Volume I took my favored to use in black powder, poured the volume 50 grains set my scale poured volume on to scale 49.8 grains, I thought I fugged up messed it up threw 4 more and weighed 4 more the average was 48.7 the deviation was like 0.4 grains REALLLLLLYYYYY not enough to support either being wrong or right, I`d be a preacher if we are talking 50 grain volume was like 45 grains at weight but if one is anal or "OCD" I can understand how it would hurt your feelings. In this matter I aint got any feeling to be hurt if ya volume your right if ya weigh still right. Me I volume. Just easier for me, Good Night Irene

1) 49.8 minus 48.7 ya got 1.1 grains from high to average - likely 2.5 grains from high to low - proly wont notice it at 100yards but proly enough to lose the edge farther out

2) it is a fact (beyond argufication) that grains is a measure of weight NOT volume - sure you can calibrate a VOLUME measure to throw a charge equivalent to about any weight you like - heck we been doin that forever with smokeless powder measures.

Mr LEE tho is careful to mark his neat little scoop measures by volume (CC is a volume measure = cubic centimeter) so he dont end up in court cuz some fool thought all smokeless powders are the same density -

3) its a fair bet that if you are serious about extracting the last bit of accuracy from a blackpowder cartridge rifle of decent capacity at longer ranges you will end up weighing charges --- load these things carefully and you can get em into single digit extreme spread territory

If I am loading 44/40 I fill em to the top from a powder horn that just happens to fit the case necks nice, when I fill the space on my bench with charged cases, I run them through a compression die, add a boolit ....done ....good enough for what I do with it . If I was trying to shoot groups from a rest at 200 yards with that gun I proly be a bit more perticular.

[Lead pot]

This tug of war between volume weight will go on for ever. :D both work.
But if you want the most out of your load find the volume and weigh it then load by weight.
If you only want to swing a bowling pin hanging on a length of #9 wire you will get by using your Lyman 55 powder proper or a scoop and it will work just fine.
One grain or even a 1/2 grain will knock you out of the game during a close 100 or 200 yard string match or at midrange or long range bulls eye.
Below are a couple examples at close range testing a new lot of powder. The first is a 200 yard test load for the .40-65.
Those are 5 shot groups increasing one grain using the same primer for each load. Primers will make the largest difference.
Target 2 is a close test at 130 yards for the first test to eliminate the condition variables before going out to a longer range.
This test is a new lot of Swiss shot in the .38-50 Hepburn. It's a little cluttered up but each set of test loads I also tested different primers to find the best load combination. You can see what just one grain increase makes. The best load I will play around with 10 shots usually increasing and dropping the powder load 1/2 grain.
But it's just not working up a load to get the most out of it. You must work on the shell cases and get them uniform also.
But that is another subject.......
:D some thing all of this anal, but it gives you a very important time behind the buttplate controlling that rifle. :D

319834319835

[kevin c]

I should think it boils down to how consistent your black powder is, both within a batch and from batch to batch.

I might be wrong, but my impression is that commercial loaders use custom made charging plates machined with uniform cavities designed to throw just one powder at one charge weight based on volume. They order their powders by the ton after extensive testing and depend on that powder being consistent. Any change in powder or charge requires more testing and new plates.

The canister powders we buy are made with lot to lot consistency in mind, so that published reloading data isn’t made obsolete with every new batch. Even so, the standard recommendation is to work the load up again if you’ve a new lot of whatever your favorite powder might be.

TLDR; the same weights of powder technically contain the same amounts of energy, though how they actually burn depends on the size, shape and consistency of the granules. If your weighed charges are very consistent in the gun, then I’d hazard a guess that if your volumetric charges of the same powder are all the same weight, they might also be consistent in the gun. Any new lot, along the same line of thinking, should be worked up by weight and then volume.

[Milky Duck]

by weight....always by weight. your homerolled will be much bulkier than commercial..I struggle to fit more than 65grns in a std 45/70 case..... 20 of commercial and 30 of home rolled fit nicely and leave a little space for the projectile to sit with minor compression.

[Randy Bohannon]

I get 80 grs. of Swiss or O.E. 1.5 with room to spare in a 45-70 slowly dumped from a 24” drop tube.

[indian joe]

I get 80 grs. of Swiss or O.E. 1.5 with room to spare in a 45-70 slowly dumped from a 24” drop tube.

not much boolit in the case tho !

I shoot GG - can get 70 under a 405gr .....63 under the heavier boolits - (with 40thou wad) --this is Goex powder - get about 4 grains less with homerolled but almost identical performance to the Goex.

A fired case is what I use to compare density of my powder - 80/81 grains brimful of goex scooped in and tapped to level - = 74/75 of homeschool - cant get anymore density into it but the made powder takes more compression - some swings and roundabouts happening :-D

[Randy Bohannon]

not much boolit in the case tho !

Not needed for a target rifle and D.D. P.P. Bullet and zero compression in a unsized case fired from the rifle.

[indian joe]

Not needed for a target rifle and D.D. P.P. Bullet and zero compression in a unsized case fired from the rifle.

fit quite a bit more powder in that space was my point

Zero compression? How long do you take to pour a charge through the drop tube ? I think I proly dont do that slow enough

[jednorris]

Powder varies by brand and consistency. Since he makes his own Powder, does that not make every lot he makes charge different?

[indian joe]

Powder varies by brand and consistency. Since he makes his own Powder, does that not make every lot he makes charge different?

make a batch that lasts 12 to 18 months, blend it thoroughly, screen it vigorously, dry it properly, store it well, = no more variation problem than commercial (likely less !!!)

[jednorris]

Ditto to what 1903 said.

[Pilgrim1]

Commercial black powder of the same brand and granulation varies by lot also. Once you settle on a good load by weight or volume you have to adjust the charge with a new lot. Some are more dense and some are less dense.

[greenjoytj]

Commercial black powder of the same brand and granulation varies by lot also.

I agree with that statement.


Some are more dense and some are less dense.

True the density can vary lot to lot and brand to brand.


Once you settle on a good load by weight or volume you have to adjust the charge with a new lot.

Nope I disagree.
If a less dense lot or brand of black powder fuel is measured by weight it will provide the same amount of energy.
The only difference will be is in the increased volume of space the less dense fuel will occupy.
Even if the granulation size varied that would only alter the speed of the burn and when in time the peak pressure occurs, the overall energy released would be the same because the energy the fuel contains is locked in the fuels mass weight not in the volume of space it occupies.

[indian joe]

I agree with that statement.



True the density can vary lot to lot and brand to brand.



Nope I disagree.
If a less dense lot or brand of black powder fuel is measured by weight it will provide the same amount of energy.
The only difference will be is in the increased volume of space the less dense fuel will occupy.
Even if the granulation size varied that would only alter the speed of the burn and when in time the peak pressure occurs, the overall energy released would be the same because the energy the fuel contains is locked in the fuels mass weight not in the volume of space it occupies.

why disagree ? I thought that was what he was sayin .......we read things different I guess................

[1903.colt]

I get 80 grs. of Swiss or O.E. 1.5 with room to spare in a 45-70 slowly dumped from a 24” drop tube.

Very nice randy I also use a drop tube . Paper patch what gun are loading for Thank you Victor .

[elmacgyver0]

My guess is the whole volume thing came about because it would be a bit awkward for Daniel Boone to run around the woods dragging along a scale and weighing all his charges for his smoke pole.

[indian joe]

My guess is the whole volume thing came about because it would be a bit awkward for Daniel Boone to run around the woods dragging along a scale and weighing all his charges for his smoke pole.

If someone back then wanted to duplicate ole Daniels load there woulda been a set of apothecary scles not too far away OR they can just set down and whittle a measure till it held the same amount.
My beef in all of this is callin it something its not. Grains is a measure of weight - period! can you make a volumetric measure that holds 57 grains of Dupont no 2 (or whatever they are shooting) of course !!! but it needs calibrated somehow
Does it matter when we change batches ? for most proly not but at 1000yards I bet it do
Does it matter when we change brands (its all blackpowder isnt it ?) ...well try 70 grains of Wano up against the same weight of Swiss ? I never shot Swiss but last test I did Wano was 100fps slower than Goex and the Gurus tell that Swiss beats Goex, so 150FPS from a brand change dont matter? I think it do ....................

In the end all this matters little - the target tells the story and if ya happy with that ...........................
OTOH if you want to do better ? its one more little thing to consider, to try , and use or discard .

[Brimstone]

make a batch that lasts 12 to 18 months, blend it thoroughly, screen it vigorously, dry it properly, store it well, = no more variation problem than commercial (likely less !!!)

This. To put forth the argument that making powder is inconsistent from lot to lot (if you actually try) with your tools is akin to making the argument that reloading ammo at your bench will never match factory consistency.

To suggest the latter on any forum other than a leftist anti gun forum and you'll be buried under a rock slide of facts, records and record holders.
But, like that record setting custom rifle, its record setting hand loaded ammo, batch to batch consistency is all about the person using the powder making tools and ultimately, loading technique.

[hiram]

I load 45-70 by weight. Once compressed the volume in each case will be the same and you know the weight is the same because you weighed it.

[Yellowhouse]

It ain't rocket science! For ML use volume. For cartridge guns figure out the amount that fills the case to the base of the bullet, factor in your wad column and compression , if any. Then weight that charge!

[Randy Bohannon]

Very nice randy I also use a drop tube . Paper patch what gun are loading for Thank you Victor .

One Shiloh 1874 #3 30” , and one Shiloh #1 1877 32”, chambers are nearly identical.

[greenjoytj]

It ain't rocket science! For ML use volume. For cartridge guns figure out the amount that fills the case to the base of the bullet, factor in your wad column and compression , if any. Then weight that charge!

Unless for ML (muzzle loader) user the shooter chooses to weigh his power charges and put it into quick load tubes.
Then he doesn't have to mess around dispensing powder into a volume measure at the range.

[Edward]

It ain't rocket science! For ML use volume. For cartridge guns figure out the amount that fills the case to the base of the bullet, factor in your wad column and compression , if any. Then weight that charge!

Either cartridge (OR) muzzle loader for best accuracy (USE A DROP TUBE) and of course weight your charge and your bullet ! With cost of shooting why settle for less? For cartridge a drop tube gets more powder compacted and in a muzzle loader a drop tube gets every grain down to the ignition point , lots of powder grains get stuck in lands/grooves other wise . Short range not an issue but consistency is extremely important at LR and (again) if it costs more every time a trigger is pulled even @ short range why waste powder /lead , drop tubes are not much money and do make a difference accuracy wise ./Ed

[mack2]

Has anyone ever measured how much velocity one obtains per grain and then see how much affect this will have on vertical strings?

[indian joe]

Either cartridge (OR) muzzle loader for best accuracy (USE A DROP TUBE) and of course weight your charge and your bullet ! With cost of shooting why settle for less? For cartridge a drop tube gets more powder compacted and in a muzzle loader a drop tube gets every grain down to the ignition point , lots of powder grains get stuck in lands/grooves other wise . Short range not an issue but consistency is extremely important at LR and (again) if it costs more every time a trigger is pulled even @ short range why waste powder /lead , drop tubes are not much money and do make a difference accuracy wise ./Ed


a drop tube might be a viable plan for a long range target muzzleloader shooting slugs but I would need more than a little convincing its anything more than a timewaster at shorter ranges - open sights - round ball - lube and how you use the ramrod will make more difference
How is powder gonna remain "stuck in the lands/grooves " after you ram down a patched ball???????

[Kenny Wasserburger]

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