Hard closure of Win 94

[PBSmith]

This is a 1942 gun, caliber 32WS. Seems to function and shoot fine but closing the bolt takes more effort that what I would expect when I close the action slowly. This happens even on an empty case that I can drop or push with little effort into the chamber all the way up to the case rim.

The bolt runs smoothly all the way to the point where the extractor rides over the rim of the case. Moving the extractor over the rim is where the force is required when I close the action slowly. If I run the lever hard, there's no problem- closes right up. Either way, the extractor leaves a light gouge on the rim when the case is extracted.

An empty case drops into the chamber without any resistance. Case length is well within the limits. The milled cutout in the end of the barrel for the extractor is clean. There is no crud under the extractor or on the bolt face. The case rims are clean.

It seems to me the extractor spring is way tougher than it should be. I can't budge it with a finger under the claw, which is very sharp. I can lift it with a wooden dowel under the claw, but it takes force.

The only problem I can imagine is this: if the extractor was replaced at one time with a new one, and If the original factory assembly of the rifle required honing of the extractor claw or spring to make it close smoothly over a case rim, possibly the person who placed a new extractor did not know this and never hand-worked the new extractor before or after installing it,

The above is just a guess.

Incidentally, I am accustomed to years of levering with the Marlin 336, all of which I've owned closed on a loaded round with minimal effort. And I do notice that the extractor spring on my 336's are relatively weak compared to that on this particular Model 94.

So maybe what I'm dealing with here is simply Winchester's reputation of strong extractor springs. I've read an identical concern that another lad posted on The Firing Line years ago with his Win94. Unfortunately he never followed up with the thread.

Any thoughts from you 94 experts on my situation?

[725]

No expert, here, but I do have a question; Are there any rifling marks on the ogive of an extracted cartridge / bullet? If the OAL of a cartridge, even within spec's, presents the bullet's ogive to close to the rifling, that final closure of the lever can be "firm".

[Hick]

My 1947 vintage Win 94 in 32WS requires some force to close when closing slowly. It has always been that way and caused me no issues. I cannot lift the extractor with my finger either. Not a gunsmith so that's about all I can tell you.

[Winger Ed.]

Sounds like you're feeling the extractor climb over the case's rim as the bolt goes all the way to battery.

Once a round is chambered and the bolt is closed, partially trip the lever, then close it again.
If the bolt closes easily, and not like when first chambering a round-- that's probably it.

If it feels as difficult as it did at first chambering-
it's time to paint a round with a Sharpie, chamber, then remove it and see where it's tight/dragging.

[PBSmith]

No expert, here, but I do have a question; Are there any rifling marks on the ogive of an extracted cartridge / bullet? If the OAL of a cartridge, even within spec's, presents the bullet's ogive to close to the rifling, that final closure of the lever can be "firm".

I understand what you're talking about. The situation I've described occurs when chambering an empty case, which drops or pushes easily all the way into the chamber so its rim is touching the end of the barrel.

[PBSmith]

[QUOTE=Winger Ed.;5641625]Sounds like you're feeling the extractor climb over the case's rim as the bolt goes all the way to battery.


Winger, yes that's exactly what I'm saying. As I tried to explain, an empty fired case drops into the chamber all the way to the rim. The force I need to close the bolt is ENTIRELY due to the extractor riding up over the case rim.

I did as you suggested in your second paragraph and the bolt closes easily.

Hick's comment makes me believe the 94 often, or maybe always, had a rugged extractor spring. I had a new 94 back in the days of nickel Cokes but can't remember how it ran.

[PBSmith]

My 1947 vintage Win 94 in 32WS requires some force to close when closing slowly. It has always been that way and caused me no issues. I cannot lift the extractor with my finger either. Not a gunsmith so that's about all I can tell you.

Hick, have you noticed a shallow gouge in the rim of your extracted cases?

[Winger Ed.]

You're probably getting a very 'distinct' extractor mark.
They're all a little different, and can be matched to a gun just like rifling marks.

I was talking to a ballistics lab. guy one time and asked him how they matched up extractor marks with reloads.
He answered almost before I finished the question and said, "We don't like getting in reloaded cases".

[LIMPINGJ]

Run a lever gun like you mean it and they work fine. Don’t slow walk them.

[lancem]

OK here is a know nothing about it question/answer. 1. Round in the chamber hard to close the bolt because of the extractor riding up over the rim and leaves a mark on the rim. 2. Repeat the above and then partially extract the case and reclose the bolt, easy close.

My question/answer to the problem, is the extractor hitting the chamber side when closing over the rim? Does the outside of the extractor need to be stoned to remove the interference with the chamber wall? That is what it sounds like is happening to me.

[john.k]

My Marlin 45/70 jams on Hornady cases ........there is something wrong with the case heads /extractor dimesnion .........now I know why the Hornady cases were in the scrap brass bin at the range.

[Hick]

Hick, have you noticed a shallow gouge in the rim of your extracted cases?

No grooves on my case rims, and some of mine have been reloaded 20 times.

[Bazoo]

My Winchester 94, made in 1970 has a mighty stiff extractor spring. I can't budge it with my fingers either. It's just the nature of the guns. They were meant for hard use under tough conditions and are over sprung as a consequence.

Extractors are a known weak point in the Marlin design.

[PBSmith]

OK here is a know nothing about it question/answer. 1. Round in the chamber hard to close the bolt because of the extractor riding up over the rim and leaves a mark on the rim. 2. Repeat the above and then partially extract the case and reclose the bolt, easy close.

My question/answer to the problem, is the extractor hitting the chamber side when closing over the rim? Does the outside of the extractor need to be stoned to remove the interference with the chamber wall? That is what it sounds like is happening to me.

Good question, lancem. I never thought to check what you've described because the bolt closes easily on an empty chamber. Just to be sure, I ran an empty case through slowly and watched the extractor. It centers precisely in the cutout or recess in the end of the barrel. Thanks for your response.

[PBSmith]

My Winchester 94, made in 1970 has a mighty stiff extractor spring. I can't budge it with my fingers either. It's just the nature of the guns. They were meant for hard use under tough conditions and are over sprung as a consequence.

Extractors are a known weak point in the Marlin design.

That makes sense Bazoo, A weaker or softer extractor spring might result in a gritty or damaged case sticking in the chamber. I do believe a person could pull stumps with the extractor in my '42.

And thanks for the note on Marlin's.

[PBSmith]

No grooves on my case rims, and some of mine have been reloaded 20 times.

I'm thinking the leading edge of my extractor might have sharp burrs because it most definitely engraves the case rim.
Appreciate your reporting.

[Kai]

I'm thinking the leading edge of my extractor might have sharp burrs because it most definitely engraves the case rim.
Appreciate your reporting.

Perhaps remove the extractor from the bolt and polish any rough spots then retry. I'm thinking it is just the nature of the beast. All mine run that way.

319694

[Bazoo]

Dang Kai, that's a good photograph. Make a good wall hanging or background.

[Kai]

Dang Kai, that's a good photograph. Make a good wall hanging or background.

Thanks bazoo! Gotta like those lever guns.

[indian joe]

This is a 1942 gun, caliber 32WS. Seems to function and shoot fine but closing the bolt takes more effort that what I would expect when I close the action slowly. This happens even on an empty case that I can drop or push with little effort into the chamber all the way up to the case rim.

The bolt runs smoothly all the way to the point where the extractor rides over the rim of the case. Moving the extractor over the rim is where the force is required when I close the action slowly. If I run the lever hard, there's no problem- closes right up. Either way, the extractor leaves a light gouge on the rim when the case is extracted.

An empty case drops into the chamber without any resistance. Case length is well within the limits. The milled cutout in the end of the barrel for the extractor is clean. There is no crud under the extractor or on the bolt face. The case rims are clean.

It seems to me the extractor spring is way tougher than it should be. I can't budge it with a finger under the claw, which is very sharp. I can lift it with a wooden dowel under the claw, but it takes force.

The only problem I can imagine is this: if the extractor was replaced at one time with a new one, and If the original factory assembly of the rifle required honing of the extractor claw or spring to make it close smoothly over a case rim, possibly the person who placed a new extractor did not know this and never hand-worked the new extractor before or after installing it,

The above is just a guess.

Incidentally, I am accustomed to years of levering with the Marlin 336, all of which I've owned closed on a loaded round with minimal effort. And I do notice that the extractor spring on my 336's are relatively weak compared to that on this particular Model 94.

So maybe what I'm dealing with here is simply Winchester's reputation of strong extractor springs. I've read an identical concern that another lad posted on The Firing Line years ago with his Win94. Unfortunately he never followed up with the thread.

Any thoughts from you 94 experts on my situation?

sounds to me like the extractor is froze in the groove in the bolt -- should be able to see a little bit of movement between the sides of the extractor and the groove in the bolt all the way to the back end of the extractor --if not - take the gun apart, drive out the retaining pin that holds the extractor in its groove in the bolt top in the bolt, take the extractor out and clean things up until it is a nice sliding fit in that groove then re assemble --dont need to take any metal off just clean up the gunk and old rust so it moves freely in its groove - that allows the extractor (its a shaped flat spring) to flex along its entire length as it rides over the case rim - rather than jammed tight and only thee front third of it doing the work ...................this is pretty simple but it might surprise you the difference .

[firefly1957]

That last little bit of movement is the weakest part of the leverage your gun has on the case I have seen a couple lever guns do the same thing .

[indian joe]

That last little bit of movement is the weakest part of the leverage your gun has on the case I have seen a couple lever guns do the same thing .

if the extractor is cutting a groove in the case rim - something is not right - needs fixing -----I will restate the argument made in post no 20.............................