Range for Hangun Load Development?

[billmc2]

I'm about to start working on my first cast 9mm load. I have a new 9mm pistol that I am going to use for this. Powder coating the bullets. The pistol has a 3.85" barrel. It has polygonal rifling. I am planning to size the bullets at 0.357", following previous recommendations to allow the barrel to "size" the bullets.

At what range (distance) do you guys use when developing a handgun load?

[BD]

I start at 10 yards through the crony. Then 25 yards off a rest. Then if it's not a pocket pistol I'll shoot it at a larger target at 50 and 100 yards just to see if the boolits remain stabilized. I've had some 44 mag lots that were great out to 50 yards, but went wild before 100 yards.

[Kosh75287]

Since most encounters involving the use of a defensive pistol are at quite short ranges, I think I'd start at 25-30 feet. Obviously, you'd like the load to demonstrate usable accuracy well past that, but that's where I'd start.
Once you get the cast/pc-d bullets and polygonal rifling to "work and play well together", you will probably obtain far better accuracy than you can employ under pressure (at least I've always done so). The average adult male upper torso measures roughly 12" across or more. I would think that if you can keep 9 of 10 rounds in a 6" circle at 50 yards from a rest, you have more than enough accuracy for any mission to which a full-sized defensive pistol can be reasonably applied.

Choice of propellant can also influence accuracy. What type do you plan to use?

[billmc2]

Choice of propellant can also influence accuracy. What type do you plan to use?

I'm glad you brought that up, I meant to ask but forgot to. With multiple powders available, I'm not sure how to make a choice. I'm using a 135 gr Ranch Dog bullet. As an example Hodgdon's site gives multiple choices. https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=53
Of those they list, I have Acc 5, Acc 7, CFE Pistol, Titegroup, and Win 244. I was thinking of starting with Win 244 only because I haven't used it much. Acc 5 is probably the powder I use most often.

[FergusonTO35]

For me, I like to be within palm of the hand groups at 20 yards for any gun that is Glock 42/J frame size or larger. For the true pocket rockets, 7-10 yards.

[Kosh75287]

Of the propellants you mention, I've had best results in 9mm with AA#5. I have not used W244, but it looks like it might be worth a look. For projectiles over 124 gr. in weight, I've had best results with Alliant Unique, Alliant BE-86, and Alliant Herco. The latter two are fairly similar to AA#5 in burning behavior, and tend to give best performance when pushed hard.

[contender1]

First off,, I suggest you determine what purpose the gun/ammo combo will be used for. Self defense ammo is much different than hunting ammo which is different from match grade ammo for competition.

Most guns can shoot very small groups at very close distances, if the shooter can do it & the ammo is carefully assembled.

Since I ask a lot from my handguns,, I tend to start my accuracy testing at 25 yds. That way,, if I find a really good load at that distance,, then I know it'll be REAL good at closer distances,, and if I need it for longer distance targets,, then I can step up distance & see how it performs.

A 3"-5" group at 10 ft will usually be all over the paper at 25 yds. But a nice small tight group at 10 ft, may or may not be accurate out further.

Just my humble thoughts to add to things here.

[dverna]

IMO cast bullets in a 9mm are for cheap practice. It is foolish to use cast bullets for self defence.

Work up a load for your gun with XTP’s or Gold Dots your gun likes. Then find a cast bullet load that shoots to the same POI.

25 yards is more than adequate for most SD situations.

[billmc2]

I don't shoot well enough to compete. I carry factory ammo for defense against people (if the situation arose, it might be used as defense against critters; I live out in the woods). If I'll be hunting I'll use a rifle. So, at this time, my plans for this is to learn the process and then have ammo to work on marksmanship. After that, who knows.

[lotech]

25 yards from a rest for all handguns, even the small ones.

[BD]

Even if the intended use is within 10 feet, I still like to know what the results might be should I ever feel the need to reach out a little farther. In my mind, loads that can't group at 25 yards are not good loads. Projectiles that don't remain stable at 50 yards also indicate poor loads.

[1006]

With one exception, all of those powders will perform about the same.

Accurate #7 is not designed for short barrel target loads, and it is a very dirty powder. I use it in a 9mm carbine, and have used it with good results in “off the charts-HOT” 9mm.

[littlejack]

I started off with the powders I had that would work in my 9mm's. First I used Herco to start. It performed well, but it did not measure the small charge weights consistantly. I switched to the HP-38 powder. Although it measured fine, it maxed out pressure wise to soon. I did some investigating on usable powders available. I decided on CFE Pistol. It's velocity to pressure looked really good. It performed very well. Clean burning, powder weights were consistant, and very economical. So, that would be my choice of the powders you listed.

[Tall]

I'm about to start working on my first cast 9mm load. I have a new 9mm pistol that I am going to use for this. Powder coating the bullets. The pistol has a 3.85" barrel. It has polygonal rifling. I am planning to size the bullets at 0.357", following previous recommendations to allow the barrel to "size" the bullets.

At what range (distance) do you guys use when developing a handgun load?

I would say with a 9mm and a 3.85" barrel you need to concentrate on results at around 15 yards. Anything more is crazy talk. It's a personal defense handgun. For personal defense you would only want to use a commercially loaded round. Any handload would cause jail time for you and a possible civil judgement too. Your handloads should mimic the commercial rounds as closely as possible.

[sigep1764]

Wow. I guess I need work. I test and practice at 30ft/10yards.

[billmc2]

Although it measured fine, it maxed out pressure wise to soon. I did some investigating on usable powders available. I decided on CFE Pistol. It's velocity to pressure looked really good.

Its this kind of information that I know nothing about; something I'm hoping to learn. How did you determine the pressure hit max to soon? Could I ask what's involved with your investigation? How/where do I get information on velocity to pressure?

I only started loading a couple of years ago, in the middle of this latest drought. It was easy then for me to decide on which powder to use. I made a list of powders the book said could be used and matched that to what I could buy. Now its more complicated for me because the list that works and the powders available is greater. I don't know how to narrow it down.

[littlejack]

After trying the first two powders I mentioned, I started looking at other reloading data and powders reccomended. I have a Hodgdon 2021 Annual Manual. This manual is in magazine form. I thumbed through to 9mm, and picked out a bullet closest to the style and weight of what I was going to test. (This is a Hodgdon manual, with only Hodgdon powders listed.) With the 124 gr. LCN bullet, the HP-38 has a max powder charge of 4.4 grains for a velocity of 1086 fps, and a pressure of 31,200 CUP.
The Hodgdon CFE powder, has a max load of 5.0 grains for a velocity of 1156 PSI. You could also drop back to the starting load with CFE Pistol, and a velocity of 1041 fps (which is almost the maximum velocity for the max load with HP-38) at 27,200 PSI. Notice I listed the pressures in (PSI = pounds per square inch) or, (CUP = copper units of pressure). The CUP, is the older method of measuring pressure. The PSI, is the newer electronic way of measuring pressure. This information, and how it's done can be found on the net.
So for me, the CFE Pistol is more versatile than the HP-38. As for the investigation, pick up a couple newer reloading manuals that have listing for the latest powders. The Hodgdon is very good, as is the 50th Lyman manual as well. If you can thumb through some of the different manuals on display, you'll be able to pick out the ones that have pressure listing.

[billmc2]

Ok, I think I'm starting to understand. You were looking at the amount of pressure listed for each powder and the associated velocity for that load. I hope I can say this correctly, with a higher velocity for a given amount of powder, you are visualizing a type of pressure curve. CFE has a velocity at almost the same as HP-38 but does it at a lower pressure. With a similar pressure it has a higher velocity.

I have several load manuals that list the pressures, including the Lyman manual you mention. I've never thought about looking at them in this way before. Thank You for that.

I guess what I'll do is load a few rounds with a couple of the powders and shoot over the chrony and see where they fall when compared to what the book says and go from there.

[Bigslug]

Handguns are typically capable of delivering far better mechanical accuracy than their flesh-and-blood operators can squeeze out of them. Unless it's for a hunting revolver, NRA Bullseye matches, going to do double duty in a carbine, or some other application that might require real distances, my attitude is that life is too short to go full accuracy nerd on defensive handguns. I go for semi-tight chrono numbers at a speed that isn't off the reservation. If it consistently busts a large tomato can (@ 4"-5") at 25 yards, it's in reality probably about a 2" load at that range, and I don't see a need to chase the dragon any further.

Whatever distance you choose, the trick I've found with handguns is to shoot larger group samples than one would with a benched rifle to better identify the more significant factor of human error. A tight five shot group with a flyer might have you thinking about re-working the load, but a tight 10-20 shot group with two or three flyers will more clearly point out the division between a good load and bouts of rectal/cranial inversion on the part of the operator.

EDIT TO ADD: Given that just about ANY carefully assembled handgun load will outshoot a non-benched operator, I would look at the experimental loads with a more critical eye to reliable function and cleanliness (which equates to CONTINUED reliable function).

[littlejack]

^^^^^^
What big slug said.
I think I understand your explanation of your understanding of what I posted. Just remember, if you are chronographing loads, with a certain powder, and the chrono is reading velocities higher than published, you could very well be over the maximum load for that powder. Back off! As careful as we try to be; "The only thing absolute in reloading is, nothing is absolute. Read your reloading manuals. Fill your mental archives with information readily available to you. Use you search function. There's a endless amount of information.
Regarding accuracy and tight groups. It's all relative. Back in my hay day, 60, 50, and even 40 years ago, I could shoot a penny off the top of a fence post at 25 yards with my .22 Remington bolt action and iron sights. Now, ot would be best for me to save my ammunition. There comes a time when one has to come to the conclusion that, that's good enough. I have come to that conclusion. But my "good enough" is deadly for self defense.

[poppy42]

IMO cast bullets in a 9mm are for cheap practice. It is foolish to use cast bullets for self defence.
.
Why?

[country gent]

When starting out with a new caliber I Look thru several loading manuals caliber and bullet weight then make note of the 3 or 4 common powders in each one and work from there. Start low and work up. If you carry factory loads try and duplicate point of impact point of aim with your hand loads.

As to distance to test, test at a distance you are sure of yourself, work from a rest and as solid a bench as you can. Find your load and then work on improving your position and skill set. If your not up to 25 or 50 yds then testing at that wont tell you much. Pay attention to you sights and trigger pull learn to "call" your shots.

You can do a lot to improve thru dry fire exercises also. But have no ammo any where near when doing so. You can learn and improve sight picture, trigger pull release and follow thru. Another great learning tool is a 22 pistol. For most practice is a great tool

[MT Gianni]

I due load development at 25 yards. I might practice self defense shooting at closer ranges but I might shoot for iron at 3-4 times that range. I don't want inherit inaccuracy issues when shooting at longer ranges. All load development is shot from a good rest.

[billmc2]

Well I started my shooting today. I'm shooting at 50 ft. I chose that range because I have some 50 ft slow fire pistol targets and that distance fits comfortably in my backyard range. Another point is at this distance I can still see the target. I haven't checked into what the bullseye looks like at 25 yards. I've gotten new glasses this past summer and they help; but....

I have some data to review for now. I shot 3 loads using the Win244 and 3 loads with the CFE Pistol. My OAL is much shorter than the Hodgdon data. I had to go with 1.060" to get it to fit in the gun. At first glance, it looks like the Win244 may come out ahead. Time will tell.

[mnewcomb59]

The bullseye should get larger as the range gets longer. A lot of people forget step #1 of shooting iron sights - focus on the front sight and let the target become blurry. If you have too small of a bullseye for the range, when you focus on your front sight and the small bullseye goes blurry it disappears. You need to be able to line up the clear front sight on the blurry bullseye.

[Rapier]

I would stick to 7-10 yards with a pocket pistol. Practice makes perfect, but.....do not expect magic from a compact or pocket pistol, especially in a 9mm. They as a group are intended as a close up defensive arm. Poly rifled barrels are not recommended for cast bullets by any manufacturer, of any pistol with a poly rifled barrel. Some casters do shoot cast in poly barrels, but if you send the gun in for warranty repair....well, do not expect much help.

[Jtarm]

25 yards from a rest for all handguns, even the small ones.

Ditto.

[uscra112]

Only thing I would add is to keep your Chrony as close as you can without letting the powder gas reach it before the bullet does. Fifteen feet or so has always worked for me. Moving it farther out is an open invitation for an errant round to terminate it. Not an issue with these radar chronographs, if you can get one work. Mine doesn't.

nb. I did my defensive handgun practice (when I could still walk) at five and ten yards.

[slam45]

start at a distance you can make accurate, repeatable hits on a fine target ( something from a postage stamp to a playing card)
work at exactly placing your boolits were your sights are looking... adjust sights or hold till it works... increase distance and speed to keep pushing for better accuracy, quicker hits, and stretching your range window... with an auto loader or revolver i have not shot before i start with 12 yd and a dead center hold and see what i get...

[MostlyLeverGuns]

While shooting close -in for speed can be entertaining and useful practice, shooting at longer distances with little pistols and revolvers can be surprising. S&W J-frames, 1911 Officer's Model the S&W Shield and the Springfield XDs are all capable of hitting 2 foot squares at 150 yards consistently, once hold-over/ front sight and sometimes slide hold-up amount is figured out. Starting out at 50 feet seems good, but after initial work-up give the longer ranges a try. It is usually an entertaining and usually will put a smile on your face.

[Biggfoot44]

Practice distances are a different thing than meaningful load testing.

For load testing, you need enough distance for differences to show up , and to remove or minimize other variables .

Hence two hand rested/ braced at 25 yards . Use context of the gun & purpose to evaluate results .

[Bass Ackward]

With the cost of components these days, we should consider asking an expert. On this issue, Clint said, “a man should know his limitations”.

And the only way to know, is too know. Shoot at the maximum range you want and either increase or decrease the load till fliers stop / start. That’s the limit of that combination. Could be the combination will never work, so you can change a variable or lower your expectations.