Hot glue for overshot cards for non fold crimp shells?

[Soundguy]

A little background. I've been reloading metallic cartridges for decades but a couple years ago now I got into shotshell reloading. I do 12, 20, 16 and .410..should do 28..but don't have any gear for it yet. I cast my own slugs, 00, 0 and #4 buck, and drip #6 and #7.5 shot.

I made up a bunch last year..loaded a few cases of each that I had been using..and now I'm finally low again.. During this time..ive made plenty of trips to the range and picked up possibly thousands of hulls. I keep rem sts top gun and aa hulls sorted. And the rest I just sort into 3 groups.. Taper or not, and if any have cardboard base wad. ( and of course sub sorting by size... ).

I probably have 1000 generic hulls that I can fire and forget. Some ranges let you pick up..some don't.. I use those unsorted ones at the no pickup range.

In any case.. I have plenty of hulls that just don't crimp well. I'm using Lee load-all II's and hand tools for the .410.

Some federal in 20g make ugly as sin fold crimps..no matter which starter you use..and there are other hulls I plan on cutting down as well..in 12 and 20. I do roll crimp some..but the roll crimp tool doesn't play nice with plastic overshot discs..and I tend to prefer those to overshot cards. Also for some of the slugs I use, at least one has a profile that the roll crimp rotary tool won't work with..cant roll the edge close enough to the slug to keep it from having some play...nose is longer on that slug..and the rotary tool doesn't have any relief for it..etc.

Been reading up on elmers glue and hot glue for holding slugs in or holding overshot cards in. Tried elmers..didnt like it. Have heard very little negatives on the hot glue.

Wanted yall's opinion. Any trouble using hot glue to retain slugs or overshot cards..or plugging holes in imperfect fold crimps that let the really fine shot out sometimes?

[schutzen-jager]

opinion only + not experienced based - i would use standard grade hot glue only - the super holding grades some have almost permanent adhesion + would probably raise pressures -

[HWooldridge]

I've used hot glue on roll crimps with overshot wads, but not slugs. Something that seems to work just as well and doesn't require heat is clear nail polish.

My roll crimped shells don't provide as much resistance as a fold crimp so slower powders sometimes leave more unburned powder, especially with card wads rather than conventional plastic-piston types. The nail polish sticks enough to cause additional delay and helps with ignition.

[Soundguy]

So..sounds possible with regular strength glue..and just don't get crazy with it.

[Shawlerbrook]

+1 on regular old hot glue for overshot cards.

[challenger_i]

I have been using clear fingernail polish for securing/sealing the overshot cards. Also have used colored variety for designating shot size in the cartridge. The method has held up well in field use.

[Soundguy]

Looking positive.

[Shanghai Jack]

Waterglass anyone?

[Soundguy]

I've used it on concrete...very messy...

[challenger_i]

Sodium silicate works, but as has been mentioned can be messy. My experience indicates ha fairly heavy coat of fingernail polish works as well.


Waterglass anyone?

[rbuck351]

I use silicone gasket sealer.

[Johnch]

Interesting

But one thing to consider is pressure
I reload steel shot
Some of the loads , as the manual lists them
Are real close to Max pressure
As a water proof , I added a small amount of glue to the crimp

Worked great
But when I hunted Canada Geese when it was about 0 degrees over night
I left a box of shells in the blind to use the next morning
I then found I got signs of high pressure the next morning shooting those shells

Someone I know has a pressure test set up and tested my loads
The glue caused a 2K pressure increase when the shells were 5 degrees

So just be careful of pressure increases if loading hot loads

John

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have found,,, Round Nose Slugs like Lee Slugs, Round Balls and even Lyman Slugs need to be Fold Crimped. The slug pushes the crimp open from the center out evenly which enhances accuracy.

Slugs with a Step on the outer edge (like Brenneke's) need to be Roll Crimped. They have a flat place for the Rolled portion of the hull to land on.

A Roll Crimp really needs a flat place to land on, that way as the crimp unwinds during firing it does so evenly which enhances accuracy with Slugs. A Roll Crimp over a Round Nose Slug tends to get pinched between the hull and the slug and un rolls unevenly. Degrading accuracy

Never had any problem Roll Crimping over Plastic Over Shot Cards as long as your payload isn't too high in the hull before it is crimped. if it is too high in the hull the tool's center section will rub on the plastic card.

Randy

[Baltimoreed]

You should be able to correctly crimp your loads and not use any glue, maybe some nail polish as weather protection if needed. Sounds like you need to find a shorter wad to lower the shot column.

[WRideout]

When I occasionally have shootable reloads that still leave a small hole in the center of the crimp, I have routinely used hot glue to close the hole, with perfectly satisfactory results.

Wayne

[hoodat]

I've been using wood glue and the proper card wad. I like it. jd

[Baltimoreed]

I just punch 5/8 inch circles out of 100 pack primer sleeves to go over my #9 shot in case I have a hole in the center.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you have a hole in the middle of your crimp it means your "Stack Height" is just a bit too high. The crimp will close properly if you lower your stack height just a little. IE less shot or compress the wad a little more.

Randy

[Soundguy]

You should be able to correctly crimp your loads and not use any glue, maybe some nail polish as weather protection if needed. Sounds like you need to find a shorter wad to lower the shot column.

Negative... It has to do with the nose of a slug and the roll crimp tool not being hollow.. The roll crimp tool hits the face of the slip before the edge is rolled enough to keep the slug from moving some...

[Kennibear]

BPI makes Tyvek over shot wads that are very thin and similar to the house wrap used in construction. These seal all the good stuff under the crimp with no glue or wax or other stuff that can raise chamber pressure. These solve your problems.

KB

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Soundguy]

BPI makes Tyvek over shot wads that are very thin and similar to the house wrap used in construction. These seal all the good stuff under the crimp with no glue or wax or other stuff that can raise chamber pressure. These solve your problems.

KB

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

Absolutely won't solve my problem with a round nose slug that contacts the roll crimp tool before the crimp is down far enough to hold the slug from moving front to back 1/8". I get the idea that there are many here not making their own non-flat nose slugs and roll crimping for them...

[Kennibear]

You can use an overshot card wad seated on the nose of the slug to hold it back under a roll crimp. It may disrupt the slug's flight but so will an uneven distribution of any sealant you use. Short of a sabot type wad made for the slug there is no optimal solution.

KB

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[longbow]

Depending on slug nose length and radius you may be able to modify your roll crimp tool by machining the center to clear the slug nose.

My homemade roll crimp tool has a concave center for that reason.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Negative... It has to do with the nose of a slug and the roll crimp tool not being hollow.. The roll crimp tool hits the face of the slip before the edge is rolled enough to keep the slug from moving some...

That is because your Stack Height is too high or your hull is too short. Look at the pics on Post #13. You will see that the Slug was about 3/4" below the mouth of the hull before it was crimped resulting in a 3/8-7/16" long Crimp which landed on flat steps on the Slugs. Lee Slugs don't have that flat step and as a result are better served by Fold Crimping as discussed in Post #13.

I too have ran into the Roll Crimp Tool's center section hitting the nose of the slug. The solution is to use longer hulls or shorter wads.

Randy

[longbow]

3/8" to 7/16" is a very deep crimp Randy. Not saying it doesn't work as obviously it does but Tom Armbrust shows significant pressure increases for crimps as they get deeper. For instance:

- at 0.030" crimp depth the chamber pressure was 9,300 PSI
- at 0.050" crimp depth the chamber pressure was 10,500 PS
- at 0.070" crimp depth the chamber pressure was 11,900 PSI
- at 0.090" crimp depth the chamber pressure was 13,100 PSI

Not sure if that relationship of crimp depth to pressure continues but that is roughly 1200 PSi increase/0.020" of crimp depth.

I am sure the pressure is dependent on hull type and powder burn rate but 3/8" or more is a deep crimp by any standard.

The old Brenneke Classic slugs used to come with a plastic spacer that sat on the shoulder of the slug and came up flush with the nose so roll crimping didn't have to be deep. Not sure what they do now as I have not seen Brenneke slugs for loading in many years.

I try to keep my roll crimp depth less than 1/8" and closer to 1/16". Otherwise I fold crimp.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah, I don't think he is talking apples to apples? And I don't believe it applies to my loads as I would have already been blown up, since per that chart I would be looking at 4-5X the Chamber Pressure Increase which is like 50-60,000psi. I have no shotguns that could take 50,000 psi. Let alone the fact that the hulls couldn't take it either.

I get no Pressure Signs and no Increase in Recoil.

In the pics below the Slug with the Yellow Wad is a Factory Loaded Brenneke Slug. I bought a few boxes for HD when they were on sale. I Pity the Fool that gets hit by one of those!.

His Lee Slugs need to be done with a Fold Crimp anyway as there is no place for a Rolled Crimp to land on the slug. That's why all the Loading Manuals say Fold Crimp for both Lyman and Lee Slugs.

I have a bunch of Federal Blue Low Recoil Slug Hulls (Randy Mandrel?) that I used for my Reloads for Front Sight (Not supposed to use reloads at Front Sight but nobody could tell the difference with my loads) I tried doing a Roll Crimp on Lee Slugs in those hulls but ran into the crimp tool running into the nose of the slug. I started using the Brenneke lookin' Slugs with the Red Wad for those hulls. Same 18 gr. of Green Dot for about 1150-1200 fps.

I was able to get good Roll Crimps on the BPI AQ slugs mainly because the nose is a "Flatter Radius" than the Lee Slugs. It was close but the tool still cleared the nose of the slug. Compare the #3 pic with AQ Slug to the #4 pic with the Lee Slug and you can see what I'm talking about. The AQ Slug has a Flatter Nose Radius, which means that the crimp contacts the slug sooner. Also that slug is less likely to jam up the crimp as it exits than the Lee Slugs are.

Randy

[Soundguy]

Yes..lee slugs generally get fold crimped..thats why their slugs can fit some shot cups. I do like to save hulls with boogered mouths as well as load those new 2" shells...only way to do that is roll crimp.
I practiced my roll crimp today on some cut 2 3/4 and left the hulls longer and got satisfactory crimps that aren't excessively deep. Used some hand punched fiber wads to adjust slug height till it was good..also found a better lube for my roll crimp tool. All in all..the lee like folds.. But I do like the option to roll if I need to. Made up some today..no hot glue needed.

[longbow]

Randy:

I agree that if the pressure increases held up that apparent pressure would be very large with a 3/8"+ deep crimp. I suspect that at some point the pressure is enough to unroll even a deep crimp without adding more but at what point? Without pressure testing equipment it is pretty difficult to tell unless you get sticky extraction or noticeable increase in recoil.

It likely doesn't matter much if your loads are running 8000 PSI or thereabouts but if you are running 11,500 PSI then maybe. Plus I suspect that powder burn rate plays a part as well. A faster powder is building pressure fast while unrolling the crimp where a slower powder has a longer ramp up so isn't reaching peak pressure until after the crimp is open... maybe?

Since I have been through one blow up I tend to be pretty careful these days.

As for roll crimps and round nose slugs or round balls, I have roll crimped Lee slugs, 0.735" RB's and Lyman Foster slugs which are effectively the same as nose shape as a round ball. I was a bit reluctant about the 0.735" RB's but figured that if factory Fosters and other round nose slugs can be roll crimped then so can a 0.735" RB and so they can without any issues at all. In my experience anyway. I figured a Lee slug in a shotcup wouldn't work well roll crimped but saw that others had done it so tried it and surprisingly to me it worked and the roll crimp didn't affect the wad petals which is what I thought would happen. Recovered wads looked fine.

I like to roll crimp slugs for two main reasons: 1) I can accomodate different column heights and the hull length down't matter much if trimmed short and a shorter wad column is used... except the jump from chamber to forcing cone is longer; 2) I can easily see that a slug is loaded in that hull.

Different strokes.

Longbow