Trading Silver/Gold In A Broken Economy

[hoodat]

Help me explain to my wife, how we will convert our silver into food, fuel, and other necessities in a time when our dollar may collapse or other circumstances prevent commerce such as we are accustomed to.

Say for instance I've got silver, but I need gas.

Our silver is primarily 1 oz rounds that have been purchased for twenty to thirty bucks apiece. Will I ever see a time when they could be used as a liquid asset?? jd

[Hick]

If the economy collapses, then most likely you won't have to worry about using silver or gold to buy things like gas, because the companies that deliver will also be out of business and the only thing you will have to live on is whatever you can grow or hunt where you are.

[farmbif]

im sure no expert but you and me and everyone else needs and wants commerce to keep going smoothly. but you and me and everyone like us only control a minority share of the money supply. over time the economy goes up and down just like the value of gold and silver and the stock market. even in depression the economy went way down but came back up. if you take just the richest 1000 people in the United States they control more money than all the rest of us put together. let this sink in a little bit. 1000 people out of 332 MILLION people. and those 1000 people have more than everyone else put together. and this probably includes all the billions in cash that the drug cartels smuggle out of the states. they are in control and I think they want commerce to keep running smoothly so they can fatten their balance sheets on a continuing basis. everyone is trading in dollars and the people who make money off of buying and selling silver and gold are the ones who promote fear that the economy will be some how disintergrate and the dollar will somehow become worthless. precious metals do hold great value but it costs individuals like us to both buy and sell to and from dollars that we can buy goods with freely.
maybe I'm all wrong about all this but its just the way I see things

[contender1]

To help explain.

Paper money's value is backed by the government assets. If the economy collapses,, paper money (and that plastic card crap,) will be totally worthless. It'll be so de-valued to where toilet paper will be worth more.
Tangible items for trade & barter,, like gold, silver, booze, ammo, guns, etc has always allowed the peons of any country to be able to trade among themselves.
Another way to look at it;
Let's say you are a farmer,, you have crops. You have a tangible item to use AND a surplus to trade/sell. But to be able to do so,, you'll want something tangible in return. You might need gas for your tractor. And another person has excess gas,, but wants silver for the gas. Silver can be used to buy gas, which can be used to buy gas to allow 3 people to get something they want or need to survive.

I have a good friend, (actually a brother from another mother,) who was working in Greece several years ago,, when their economy crashed. He sent me some Greek paper money,, because he knew I liked that kind of stuff,,, but it's worthless.

So basically, silver is a tangible item, that can be used to trade & barter for other items if the economy crashes.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

332 Billion! No wonder it's getting crowded around here! :shock:

hoodat, yours is an interesting question, and a hard one to answer. As stated above, there may not be any gasoline to buy. But, if there is, you have to pay for it somehow. Could be by barter for some chickens, or a unneeded coat, but the idea of money has always been that it's portable and if it has a recognized value it can be exchanged for something else that the fellow who had the gasoline wants. Chickens die or are eaten, and the coat can be worn out, lost, or stolen, but the gold and/or silver remains what it is. Since the metals are corrosion resistant they have many uses other than just as money.

If the economy does collapse the money currently in use, made of paper and coins of lesser value metal, will be worthless. Good for just about nothing at all. But gold/silver has been held to hold value for thousands of years, and even if you can't buy that gasoline today you will likely be able to buy some tomorrow or a few days down the road if there is any. Someone will trade for some of your silver because they will know someone who has something that they want that will accept the silver. The Ancients had to esteem it highly to want to be buried with it. Perhaps it is a recognized medium of exchange across the River Styx.

Other things will have value not fully appreciated now, such as canned goods, clothing, good hand tools, etc., all good for trading. Oh, yes...toilet paper! Guns, ammo, reloading components are good. Butane lighters, matches...so many things. But none of them are as easy to cart around and exchange as gold and silver. And, if one believes that someday pigs may grow wings and fly, if the projected evils don't fall upon us you will probably be able to cash it in at a later date at a profit.

DG

[MrWolf]

I tend to think of gold and silver as commodities that will be used once everything is almost back in order. Before that folks will be needing the necessities. I can't see folks who are struggling willing to take gold or silver. Just my opinion but it think supplies, food, fuel, etc will be the items in demand.

[MaryB]

local co-op takes silver for payment... I do have a credit account there though. So I use my gas card to fill up, can pay in silver if I want.

in a SHTF scenario You need chicken but only have 4 silver quarters($5 bills!) to trade. Guy with chicken won't take silver but the guy with chicken feed will so you trade for feed then trade feed for the chicken... a barter system will spring up with silver and gold filling the cracks where you can't do a direct trade.

[farmbif]

thats really interesting your local coop takes silver and I assume they give you current market value by ounce for it? thats really neat.

[Ed K]

It is a store of value. Let’s say you had $100K in the bank and you wake up tomorrow with the economy gone bust. Sure, you could use some chicken or gas today. But beyond immediate needs assume you could roll back the clock one day. Would you have withdrawn your funds and on the way home purchased 50,000 pounds of chicken or would you rather have 5,000 silver pieces?

[hoodat]

I'd wager that most of us who have any degree of wealth saved up (no matter how much that is) currently have it invested in various stocks, bonds, mutual funds -- some sitting in banks in low interest accounts, or higher interest CDs -- and on that day when the economy goes bust, we won't be very happy.

Call up your broker, and tell him you want your money... oh yeah, he's not gonna answer. Remember when covid happened and you couldn't get in the bank?? How did that feel?

We might soon hear on the news, that for our own good, the guvmint has discontinued the nearly worthless dollar and replaced it with brand new units of wealth that will be assigned a yet to be determined trade value. And HALLELUJAH!!! -- half the people in the country will now have more money than they had before. Oh, and by the way gold and silver, will now be illegal to own or trade, and we will have a period of time to exchange it for more units of the new sanctioned wealth.

jd

[Gray Fox]

What many folks forget is that very few of us now live in a rural or semi-rural area where there is anything to barter for. And, if you are fortunate enough to live there, do you have at least two very capable and trustworthy armed associates who can try to make sure you don't get ripped off or killed as you attempt to exchange your coinage for something you need. Also, the above scenario isn't going just sprout quickly like a spring dandelion. It will take time for a barter economy to come into being and you may not make it that long unless you are stocked up now with necessities and have the above-mentioned trusted friends who are in the same situation.

For the rest of us, well, we're probably just about out of luck unless we can subsist on dandelions 8 months of the year once our preps are eaten--hopefully by ourselves. As a 90-year-young lady told me recently, the older we get the more we see we need to pray, in supplication and in thanks. Gray Fox

[Bmi48219]

As mentioned in post #3, very few people have access to precious metals at market value. If you have gold and silver and the economy doesn’t fall off a cliff you won’t be able to recoup your investment until the market prices exceed your purchase prices.
As others have pointed out, in a collapse scenario basic necessities will be in higher demand than precious metals. An ounce of silver costs as much as a t-bone steak today, after a collapse prices won’t be based on what something costs to grow or make.

[.429&H110]

Let me try to retell 1792...

1792 we didn't have much, but by God, we could grow corn.
We could eat it, barnyard pets could eat it, but the wife wanted more stuff. Wives being what they were, America went out back, made whisky. I blame women for indoor plumbing, too. Anyway, whiskey was portable, the henpecked husband could swap whiskey for anything on earth that she wanted. Whiskey is better than money, you can't drink gold, but you can sell whiskey for gold. Our brand new Federal gov't wanted to have banks currency oligarchs tolls and taxes, so George Washington taxed whiskey, then settled the Whiskey Rebellion more or less.

Nowadays, most places, you can own a still. You just can't sell untaxed whiskey.
Beer is good stinky fun to make, my mother made 20 proof ginger beer.
You need some clean blue barrels, fire, water, real glass deposit bottles, a recipe
and the hoarders will bring you their gold.

Come the revolution it won't be safe to drink the unchlorinated city water.
We have forgotten about typhoid, Abe Lincoln's son Willy died of that.
Maybe don't bother with whiskey, if you have a spring, sell water.
There will be no gasoline, diesel, propane, electricity, it's not something I want to live to see.

My dad taught me "Everybody needs a schtick". What can you do that is useful.

[hiram]

I didn't see this mentioned here but remember that the ingots/rounds of silver you buy for $20--$30 each may now have the purchasing power of, for example, $200 each. (if SHTF)

[Driver man]

My dad taught me "Everybody needs a schtick". What can you do that is useful.
What does this phrase mean?

[Lloyd Smale]

I tend to think of gold and silver as commodities that will be used once everything is almost back in order. Before that folks will be needing the necessities. I can't see folks who are struggling willing to take gold or silver. Just my opinion but it think supplies, food, fuel, etc will be the items in demand.

i agree. if shtf food would be hard to find and nobody will be foolish enough to take paper or shinny bobbles for their beans and rice. might be a few wealthy people ahead of the game that stock piled food just to swap it for gold but nobody near me has that kind of money. but if i have 20 bags of beans and dont know when or if im ever getting more your not getting one for 5 lbs of gold. now like mrwolf said if you have some and realize for the short term its useless but are counting on things comming back then you will probably make out great. medical supplies, food, water and guns and ammo will be the most valuable things and maybe even whisky. gold. the most valuable gold color stuff will be 22lr, 556, 3030, 270, 308 and 06 ammo. i guess you can roll the dice hoping youll make out with rocks or you can buy food and ammo that are sure bets. it hasnt even come yet and my powder and primers are worth twice what they were 5 years ago and thats being conservative.

[Shawlerbrook]

Interesting conversation. You can go back in history ( the Depression in the USA and government collapses elsewhere) to see exactly what will happen. Useful items, food ,medicine,etc., will be the most valuable items. People living in the cities will be in the most trouble, where country folks will probably at least be able to feed themselves. I remember when I worked doing farm inspections hearing stories about how many of the relatives, especially children were sent from the city to the farm where they had work and food.

[JimB..]

PMs are a store of value, they enable a reasonably lossless transition from one currency to another, be that US dollars to Mexican pesos or US dollars to US dollars 2.0.

Some hoarders expect to be buying bread with silver, but I think that’s the least likely scenario. In such a collapse you’ll find that having a marketable skill or a critical commodity will be at least as important as what you have stored.

I wouldn’t buy PMs unless you have spare cash, and even then it wouldn’t be my first investment. Most of the time I’d rather have equities or bonds paying me a return than a stack of silver that does nothing.

[rancher1913]

the notion that their will be no oil or gas is a joke, people have gotten used to its benefit and will find a way. not to long ago production men would run their trucks on condensate gas straight from the well. you may not find the highly processed fuels of today but a farmer will be able to get diesel, even a piss pore grade of diesel will run in older tractors. every tractor i have can run on vegetable oil if needed so farmers will farm and the people in the city will need a way to pay for their food. historically gold and silver have been money for centuries, they will be again because everything old is new again and history repeats itself.

[Wag]

A 1 oz round silver eagle might be worth $25 now but if the economy collapses, it will be worth a loaf of bread. Maybe. And if another day goes by, it might be worth a couple of slices of bread. A collapsed economy brings uncertainty, particularly, uncertainty about availability.

It's that uncertainty that brings about chaos. Everyone will be thinking about how they're going to put their next meal on the table, not so much about getting to a job somewhere to get a few paper dollars that aren't worth anything.

At the moment, when times are still good, we can be sure that the paper dollars will provide for us so we need to store some things which will be LIKELY to be valuable to us, to feed and water ourselves, and carry off our waste products. That will give us some certainty in some minor ways. Guns and ammo will give additional certainty about our personal and family security. Isolation in a remote, non-urban area will help with that, too.

--Wag--

[Ed K]

So yes, it seems to be catching on that gold and silver coins are a store of value. That is not to say that they are your first line of defense.

Go back three years when everything shut down. Is it so the dollar was your first line of defense? Maybe so but we weren’t far from seeing that you needed to rely on the gas in your tank or the food in your basement because stores were closed. When stores were open you couldn’t necessarily get what you needed. Toilet paper anyone? Maybe you had to use what you had on hand. Eat some food from your freezer or pantry. That was far from a total collapse, but it gives you a glimpse of the every day needs that need to be satisfied and how it can be worrisome to not be able to get them. In the real deal circumstances would be far worse than “worrisome”. So no, coins will not help you at that moment.

Note that when we came out of that aforementioned “mini collapse” scenario we went back to using dollars (to find they are no longer worth a dollar). In the more extreme case that’s the point when silver and gold would come into play.

[KenH]

Gold and silver have always had value, even in primitive societies, and will have value if SHTF type of thing. The problem with your 1 oz bars is folks knowing they are actually silver and not alloyed with a base metal. what folks tend to do is by "junk silver" - that's pre-64 silver coins. Usually they're about the value of the silver they're made some. This gives small amounts of silver for trade in something that's pretty sure it's real since it's hard to make fake silver coins.

[Lloyd Smale]

Gold and silver have always had value, even in primitive societies, and will have value if SHTF type of thing. The problem with your 1 oz bars is folks knowing they are actually silver and not alloyed with a base metal. what folks tend to do is by "junk silver" - that's pre-64 silver coins. Usually they're about the value of the silver they're made some. This gives small amounts of silver for trade in something that's pretty sure it's real since it's hard to make fake silver coins.

they sell fake silver and gold plated coins every day right on tv. primitive society's? they swapped it for glass beads. PM's are an excellent long term investment to hedge inflation in an economy that is at least working. shtf? your going to starve to death looking at a pretty rock. that is if someone that has guns and ammo doest shoot you take what food you have and if they have room after they take your food take your pretty rocks too.

[JSnover]

Your gold might be worth a lot less, if you can find anyone willing to take it but lead, now that might be a different story. During the American Revolution the market price of lead within the colonies far exceeded the market price of gold.
People will always make jewelry from gold but only after their other needs have been met.

[MUSTANG]

Keep in mind that Money (Gold, Silver, Copper, etc..) is facilitate exchange - not a means unto itself. It is an exchange mechanism when one for one barter does not work.

1. Gardener has a surplus of Beans, Corn, Potatoes. Furniture maker wants Gardeners stuff and has wooden chairs - but Gardner does not need or want to speculate on trade for chairs.

2. Brewer has Beer; more than can his family can use - but does not not need or want Chairs. Does not need vegetables Gardner has for trade. Does need Barley and Wheat that Farmer 15 miles away has.

3. Farmer has to go to town once each month and wants to stay at Inn Keeper's Lodging and Eating place. The Lodging and eating place guy does not want Farmers bags of Barley and Wheat to take up his scarce losing and eating space.

Enter the Silver Round.
A. Furniture maker buys 2 weeks work of vegetables from Gardner with 1oz Silver round.
B. Gardner wants to have some beer. Takes Silver round to Brewer in exchange for Jug of beer.
C. Brewer needs more Wheat and Barley. Takes Silver to Farmer and exchanges for Wheat & Barley.
D. Farmer goes to town and has a meal and stays over night at Inn Keepers. Gives Silver coins to Inn Keeper.
E. Inn Keeper has 3 chairs broken. Needs new Chairs; takes coin to Furniture maker and exchanges for chairs.

AND THE TRAVEL OF THE SILVER COIN CONTINUES ON, and ON, and ON.

Money is simply a form of exchange where Direct Barter does not work.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd and 5 others with him want beans corn beef and beer. offers to trade 22 shells for it. you say no i dont need them. Lloyd shoots you and takes what he needs. leaves the pretty rocks for someone stupid enough to be willing to burn the calories needed to haul it. Lloyd now has enough food to feed 4more people so on his next trading expidition has 7 people with him and two more to hunt or grow food back home. Good thing is Lloyd has enough guns and ammo to arm three times that many "traders" But Lloyd is a fair man and will always offer his 22 shells first[smilie=l:

[tinsnips]

My father always said gold and silver doesn't taste that good i would rather have a pantry full of canned food . By the way my father lived through the depression with 15 bothers and sisters . So i am going to go with his advise.

[country gent]

To a man the old timers Dad and I worked with told us the same thing, ( these men came over during or just after WW2 from Poland Hungary and other European countries). When it fails you need three things food, shelter and a means to protect it. Gardens and fields will be raided by anyone passing by. homes will be taken and or invaded. These men who had lived thru this all told the same thing. Precious metals, jewels, art were basically worthless. foods and the basics of survival were what was valuable. Even here during the war the ones a head were the ones with big gardens or the truck farmers, They had food and animals could trade for the niceties they needed. Rationing and shortages affected those in the cities and towns much more than the people in the country. Butter cheese and most foods can be made on the farm.

Look at thse men and to a man the first thing they purchased were firearms and ammunition, then a home with enough room for a big garden and possibly room for some animals. Look back to history and it will tell/show what was is needed.

[waksupi]

I traded silver for a new set of tires a few years ago. It will depend on how much the other party values silver.

[WILCO]

Never bothered with precious metals, because the one's selling it were accepting fiat currency as payment.
Then there's the fact that the government can outlaw them like years past.
Finally, even though plenty of people on the titanic could swim, it didn't matter.
My best advice to anyone is to live your life.
Prepare for the minor bumps and inconveniences.
Big picture stuff you most likely won't survive anyways..................

[Ed K]

To a man the old timers Dad and I worked with told us the same thing, ( these men came over during or just after WW2 from Poland Hungary and other European countries).

With their gold!

[Lloyd Smale]

Big picture stuff you most likely won't survive anyways.................. thats a fact

[.429&H110]

Went back and fixed Willie Lincoln, died 12 yo of typhoid.
We have forgotten raw water is nasty.

As my dad explained it, your schtick is a rare skill you learn for a part-time job.
My uncle played trumpet nights, made good money.
I can reach 8 feet, so I learned to paint kitchens, but I'm no house painter.

Maybe you can tutor algebra2 or mow with your snath.
A scythe starts first pull, every time, quiet without batteries.
"Showing up and working" might be a common schtick for this forum,
a rare skill these days, priceless.

[kerplode]

IMO, precious metals are an inflation hedge and a store of wealth. They are not a SHFT currency. Hoarding silver rounds to barter for bread in some Mad-Max situation is just prepper mental masturbation. If you're really worried about it, spend that money buying things that'll be directly useful instead of rounds. Oh, and start exercising, and get your cholesterol, blood pressure and diabeetus under control. Hard to hear, I know, but it's true...

If SHTF manages to actually happen, and I actually manage to survive the first two days, I'm not giving you anything for your coins. In fact, you'll probably get my lead and then I'll take your coins...

[kerplode]

Lloyd and 5 others with him want beans corn beef and beer. offers to trade 22 shells for it. you say no i dont need them. Lloyd shoots you and takes what he needs. leaves the pretty rocks for someone stupid enough to be willing to burn the calories needed to haul it. Lloyd now has enough food to feed 4more people so on his next trading expidition has 7 people with him and two more to hunt or grow food back home. Good thing is Lloyd has enough guns and ammo to arm three times that many "traders" But Lloyd is a fair man and will always offer his 22 shells first[smilie=l:

Listen to Lloyd...Lloyd understands how SHTF is really going to work.

[super6]

I'd wager that most of us who have any degree of wealth saved up (no matter how much that is) currently have it invested in various stocks, bonds, mutual funds -- some sitting in banks in low interest accounts, or higher interest CDs -- and on that day when the economy goes bust, we won't be very happy.

Call up your broker, and tell him you want your money... oh yeah, he's not gonna answer. Remember when covid happened and you couldn't get in the bank?? How did that feel?

We might soon hear on the news, that for our own good, the guvmint has discontinued the nearly worthless dollar and replaced it with brand new units of wealth that will be assigned a yet to be determined trade value. And HALLELUJAH!!! -- half the people in the country will now have more money than they had before. Oh, and by the way gold and silver, will now be illegal to own or trade, and we will have a period of time to exchange it for more units of the new sanctioned wealth.

jd

It happened in the late 1920S- early 1930S, Gold was Illegal to own or sell. I think we all have forgotten.

[MaryB]

Let me try to retell 1792...

1792 we didn't have much, but by God, we could grow corn.
We could eat it, barnyard pets could eat it, but the wife wanted more stuff. Wives being what they were, America went out back, made whisky. I blame women for indoor plumbing, too. Anyway, whiskey was portable, the henpecked husband could swap whiskey for anything on earth that she wanted. Whiskey is better than money, you can't drink gold, but you can sell whiskey for gold. Our brand new Federal gov't wanted to have banks currency oligarchs tolls and taxes, so George Washington taxed whiskey, then settled the Whiskey Rebellion more or less.

Nowadays, most places, you can own a still. You just can't sell untaxed whiskey.
Beer is good stinky fun to make, my mother made 20 proof ginger beer.
You need some clean blue barrels, fire, water, real glass deposit bottles, a recipe
and the hoarders will bring you their gold.

Come the revolution it won't be safe to drink the unchlorinated city water.
We have forgotten about typhoid, Abe Lincoln's son Willy died of that.
Maybe don't bother with whiskey, if you have a spring, sell water.
There will be no gasoline, diesel, propane, electricity, it's not something I want to live to see.

My dad taught me "Everybody needs a schtick". What can you do that is useful.

Brew beer? Got it! Have 10,000 bottle caps, and a couple cases of growlers with the rubber gasket/wire bail to hold the cap on. Sell a growler then they bring it back for refills! Currently do that with friends and family LOL except they never pay me grrrr

3 level all grain beer brewing rig, I can bottle or keg!

https://i.imgur.com/yLuKAB0.jpg

[MaryB]

PMs are a store of value, they enable a reasonably lossless transition from one currency to another, be that US dollars to Mexican pesos or US dollars to US dollars 2.0.

Some hoarders expect to be buying bread with silver, but I think that’s the least likely scenario. In such a collapse you’ll find that having a marketable skill or a critical commodity will be at least as important as what you have stored.

I wouldn’t buy PMs unless you have spare cash, and even then it wouldn’t be my first investment. Most of the time I’d rather have equities or bonds paying me a return than a stack of silver that does nothing.

Silver I bought in 2001 for $8/oz is now worth $23.45. I call that a good rate of return. My dollar cost average(add up all your paid prices and divide by total ounces) is currently running $12/oz... still a really good rate of return! And long term it is running about 50% higher than the inflation rate so again a good investment.

To many think of silver like day trading, go in for a quick buck. Nope, that is a recipe to lose money! Silver is a long term investment!

[farmbif]

if your really worried the world will end trade the silver and gold for some rural land a good dog and a couple mules, a few cases of been weenies will be a good start and you will be much better off than those in the city and suburbs sitting atop their piles of silver and gold.

[MaryB]

So yes, it seems to be catching on that gold and silver coins are a store of value. That is not to say that they are your first line of defense.

Go back three years when everything shut down. Is it so the dollar was your first line of defense? Maybe so but we weren’t far from seeing that you needed to rely on the gas in your tank or the food in your basement because stores were closed. When stores were open you couldn’t necessarily get what you needed. Toilet paper anyone? Maybe you had to use what you had on hand. Eat some food from your freezer or pantry. That was far from a total collapse, but it gives you a glimpse of the every day needs that need to be satisfied and how it can be worrisome to not be able to get them. In the real deal circumstances would be far worse than “worrisome”. So no, coins will not help you at that moment.

Note that when we came out of that aforementioned “mini collapse” scenario we went back to using dollars (to find they are no longer worth a dollar). In the more extreme case that’s the point when silver and gold would come into play.

Neighbor across the street came to me during that and asked why I wasn't shopping once or twice a week. I told them I planned in advance for something like this and didn't need to. I could go once a month for meat and a few minor things...

Part of my pantry... out of frame to the left are 2 chest freezers, behind me more wire shelving units... it is 10x10 foot... and packed full!

https://i.imgur.com/acu2Q7Q.jpg

[rancher1913]

Lloyd and 5 others with him want beans corn beef and beer. offers to trade 22 shells for it. you say no i dont need them. Lloyd shoots you and takes what he needs. leaves the pretty rocks for someone stupid enough to be willing to burn the calories needed to haul it. Lloyd now has enough food to feed 4more people so on his next trading expidition has 7 people with him and two more to hunt or grow food back home. Good thing is Lloyd has enough guns and ammo to arm three times that many "traders" But Lloyd is a fair man and will always offer his 22 shells first[smilie=l:

looks like your true colors might be showing

[rancher1913]

if you trade ammo or any reloading stuff, be prepared for the people you traded it to, to use it against you.

[MaryB]

Gold and silver have always had value, even in primitive societies, and will have value if SHTF type of thing. The problem with your 1 oz bars is folks knowing they are actually silver and not alloyed with a base metal. what folks tend to do is by "junk silver" - that's pre-64 silver coins. Usually they're about the value of the silver they're made some. This gives small amounts of silver for trade in something that's pretty sure it's real since it's hard to make fake silver coins.

Trick to catch some fakes is get a powerful bar magnet 3-4 inches long. Hold it at a 45 degree angle. Hold a copper/zinc penny against the top of it and let it slide. It will free fall with little resistance. Now do the same with a pre 64 silver coin or a silver 1oz round. It will drag slowly down the bar because silver is a diamagnetic metal. There are some base metals that are diamagnetic so this won't get every fake. Know the size of a typical 1oz round...

American Silver Eagle
Mass 31.103 g (1.00 troy oz)
Diameter 40.6 mm (1.598 in)
Thickness 2.98 mm (0.1173 in)

gives us a volume of 3857.96437 cubic mm with a weight of 31.103grams ALL 1oz silver rounds will have this volume. Most fakes are thicker to make up for a lighter base metal under the plating so the volume ends up higher. Having a good calipers when dealing in silver is a must.

[Lloyd Smale]

looks like your true colors might be showing

my true colors? family and country in that order. get in the way of either and we have a problem. RED WHITE AND BLUE sir

[Lloyd Smale]

Neighbor across the street came to me during that and asked why I wasn't shopping once or twice a week. I told them I planned in advance for something like this and didn't need to. I could go once a month for meat and a few minor things...

Part of my pantry... out of frame to the left are 2 chest freezers, behind me more wire shelving units... it is 10x10 foot... and packed full!

https://i.imgur.com/acu2Q7Q.jpg

all the necessities. canned and dry food and a tapper fridge :redneck:

[schutzen-jager]

jmho - when the balloon goes up + the economy fails gold would be almost impossible to utilize because of it's high values that people paid - silver should be a better option - even than food, medicines, hand tools, firearms, ammo + alcoholic beverages will be much more in demand + desired by almost everyone -

[Handloader109]

You guys are wasting your time with metals except for lead. And primers and powder. I wouldn't be trading anything I have that I can't easily replenish for gold or silver. And how in the heck are you going to split up that gold one oz round? $2000 in gold for a roll of TP? I've some silver, but not enough to make any difference....

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[dverna]

History is a decent example of what will happen. Does not require a lot of research to figure out what has value and what is needed to survive.

[elmacgyver0]

Gold and silver have always been worth something as long as some form of civilization has existed.
Once civilization ceases to exist, it is only another metal.
I don't care one way or another because I will not be around anyway.

[tinsnips]

I think what you will need the most is the Good Lord on your side!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Venezuela and Haiti are in the midst of very hard times, what are people there doing?
Do any of them have silver and gold coins?
.
It's so difficult to figure out what will happen when the USA (the current world power) falls on hard times, but it will likely depend on what country takes our place...unless the SHTF situation is worldwide, then we'll be trading 12 ga shotgun shells for well aged gasoline, like Mad Max. Speaking of Mad Max, I don't recall seeing anyone ever eating anything in that movie?

[rancher1913]

you guys with the gold for toilet paper stories crack me up, why dont you just say you cant afford gold. my gold will be used to buy the local farms that will be sold for back taxes, i can guarantee the gov and the bankers will take gold and that fiat money will be laughed at.

[hoodat]

Well, I guess this thread has been good to give both me and my wife a look at the reality of what our silver might be good for. I'm coming down on it being at least another option in hard times, and every option available is very important in hard times.

Other options that are important around our forum are pretty obvious -- stored food, cash reserves, tools and skills, fuel, guns and plenty of ammo, a good network of friends/family. --- heck, I'll even include my hundred odd leg-hold traps that might become invaluable for catching more game than a man could kill with his gun. I haven't tried coyote roast -- yet, but I'll eat just about every other furbearer that I might trap.

Bottom line is having a faithful relationship with my creator, Lord, and Savior, who will provide as many days of life on this earth as he wants me to have. When he calls me away, I'm not gonna worry about what happens to my silver, gold, ammo, or whatever else is left behind. jd

[MaryB]

You guys are wasting your time with metals except for lead. And primers and powder. I wouldn't be trading anything I have that I can't easily replenish for gold or silver. And how in the heck are you going to split up that gold one oz round? $2000 in gold for a roll of TP? I've some silver, but not enough to make any difference....

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

1 gram gold bars are a thing... about $62 worth right now without the premium... call it $75ish with. 1/2 oz American Gold Eagles $275ish... 1964 and older US silver dimes are a $2 bill, a silver quarter a $5 bill...

[Four-Sixty]

I would say precious metals would be very useful if we implement a central bank digital currency, and you'd like to privately transact with someone - maybe avoid paying taxes.

As for SHTF, why not just set aside some seeds now. The amount of seeds you can get for the price of one ounce of silver today would be very valuable after a total collapse. You could also use seeds as currency. Restock your "seed store" annually to ensure you have useable seeds the next season. It would be nice to even have seeds to share so neighbors could feed themselves. That would build good will.

319144

1,400 seeds for $30ish bucks. In SHTF, that is money! (And you don't have to prey on other people)

[Gewehr-Guy]

Any farmer or rancher that has grain or cattle will sell for metals. He can't hold them forever, waiting for an acceptable new currency to come along. Gold is for large purchases, silver for every day trades. One hundred years ago, I think you could buy a beef for a $20 gold piece, and today you can get a decent cow for that same coin.

Two hundred years ago,our country had coinage shortages, and had to cut Dollars into eighths, called "bits", or pieces of eight. I' m not too old, but I still remember when a candy bar cost "two bits"

[MT Gianni]

The economy has bounced hard many times in history and in many countries. In none of them has gold and silver been the only options nor the only currency. That only has happened in novels.

[Lloyd Smale]

you guys with the gold for toilet paper stories crack me up, why dont you just say you cant afford gold. my gold will be used to buy the local farms that will be sold for back taxes, i can guarantee the gov and the bankers will take gold and that fiat money will be laughed at.

even during the depression paper money was valuable. just hard to acquire. how will you steel those peoples farms and homes when the banks crash and the government is gone? who are you to judge my financial status. i dont have gold but my home 4 vehicles camp and all my toys are paid for. if i wanted shinny rocks id buy them. they may be a good long term investment and maybe 40 years ago i should have bought some. today im 67 and would rather spend that money enjoying the years i have left then buying rocks to collect dust in the safe. but bottom line is if we have a REAL SHTF senerio you arent buying my neighbors house. if you want it youd better lock and load because not many are going to hand you the keys. i take it you have never met a farmer:popcorn:

[Half Dog]

I’m enjoying y’all’s perspective on the subject. In the mentioned scenario how will our court system change and how long will it take to stabilize? Is that what we need to quiet these whiners?

[Ed K]

Well, I guess this thread has been good to give both me and my wife a look at the reality of what our silver might be good for. I'm coming down on it being at least another option in hard times, and every option available is very important in hard times.

Other options that are important around our forum are pretty obvious -- stored food, cash reserves, tools and skills, fuel, guns and plenty of ammo, a good network of friends/family. --- heck, I'll even include my hundred odd leg-hold traps that might become invaluable for catching more game than a man could kill with his gun. I haven't tried coyote roast -- yet, but I'll eat just about every other furbearer that I might trap.

Bottom line is having a faithful relationship with my creator, Lord, and Savior, who will provide as many days of life on this earth as he wants me to have. When he calls me away, I'm not gonna worry about what happens to my silver, gold, ammo, or whatever else is left behind. jd

I'm glad you were able to get some good information. Your balance of silver and "Other options" is sound reasoning with diversification being a good thing. Tools and skills in particular are overlooked by many as stored items can only go so far. I find much of the silver bashing discouraging and wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn those individuals have virtually all of their liquid net worth on deposit in financial institutions.

[rancher1913]

i am a farmer and also know that there are a lot of farmers or ranchers that have no plan for a depression type scenario. there will always be some form of government and you will always have to pay taxes somehow and there will always be land for sale, if your prepared with a stable way to purchase, you come out ahead, if all you have is a pantry but no land to restock it you lose. people that think they will just hunt and fish are kidding themselves, every tom, dick, and harry will be doing the same thing and even with tough talk, there is a butcher for every bull. like was said above, i will have beef for sale but unless you have gold, you aint getting any, i will have grain for sale but unless you have gold, you aint getting any. there are a lot of families alive and well in the u.s.a today because their ancestors had gold to bribe their way out of europe when the nazis took over, god help us if that ever happens here.

[Good Cheer]

Judging by the past, current and expected rates of inflation one of the best returns you can get on your money is investing now in good quality proteins and carbs.

And that's something which reminds me of the year end garden preps that I have yet to get done before ol' man winter sets in.

[Good Cheer]

I think what you will need the most is the Good Lord on your side!

And that sir is pure gold.

[Reg]

i am a farmer and also know that there are a lot of farmers or ranchers that have no plan for a depression type scenario. there will always be some form of government and you will always have to pay taxes somehow and there will always be land for sale, if your prepared with a stable way to purchase, you come out ahead, if all you have is a pantry but no land to restock it you lose. people that think they will just hunt and fish are kidding themselves, every tom, dick, and harry will be doing the same thing and even with tough talk, there is a butcher for every bull. like was said above, i will have beef for sale but unless you have gold, you aint getting any, i will have grain for sale but unless you have gold, you aint getting any. there are a lot of families alive and well in the u.s.a today because their ancestors had gold to bribe their way out of europe when the nazis took over, god help us if that ever happens here.

At least IMHO you nailed it!

[dverna]

Help me explain to my wife, how we will convert our silver into food, fuel, and other necessities in a time when our dollar may collapse or other circumstances prevent commerce such as we are accustomed to.

Say for instance I've got silver, but I need gas.

Our silver is primarily 1 oz rounds that have been purchased for twenty to thirty bucks apiece. Will I ever see a time when they could be used as a liquid asset?? jd

Short answer is "Yes". It will be market driven. If you live in a city where food will be scarce, you will need to give more coins for food than in a rural area where people farm and have gardens.

Everything will be tougher in urban areas. More people chasing fewer resources.

A total collapse is unlikely to happen IMHO. The "elites" still need enough slaves to maintain their objectives. Part of that requires some banks to stay operational as well as the court system to effect foreclosure on land/assets they will want to acquire.

IMO, if you have a small homestead that is paid for you will be under their radar. Folks with large acreages and mortgaged to the maximum will be targeted. There is a family not far from me that leases/"owns" about 2000 acres. They supply high end hay for show/race horses. They will be in a world of hurt if things get bad. Show horses are not necessities that people will be able to afford when things go south. This family of farmers will lose a lucrative market and not last long.

Remember it is always about power and money. The "elites" will want a "controlled collapse" if they can orchestrate it. Even though they are the real enemy, we will be too busy fending off other "peasants" to do much about them. The elites can afford private armies if they need them. BTW, one reason to have a MAG (Mutual Assistance Group) comprised of local small homesteads. Not efficient for the elites to waste resources taking the land of 25 families who have 2000 acres by force, when they can take one or two large tracts of land "legally".

[MUSTANG]

Gold and silver have always been worth something as long as some form of civilization has existed.
Once civilization ceases to exist, it is only another metal.


I am in 100% agreement with those speaking to having "Valuable Skills", seeds, gardening, ability to defend ones self/family/neighborhood. On the issue of Civilization ceasing to exist; the question becomes are we speaking of Civilization ceasing locally, state wide, nationally, regionally, or across the Globe?

Gold in collapse of a country:

1. For many who had Gold early in the pre- and actual invasions of countries by the Nazi's and the USSR often had an ability to buy their way past Guards, Inspections, out of the country and into another country (for both local and hostile invading forces). Has been repeated that way throughout history.

2. Camp Pendleton was where vast numbers of the "Vietnamese" refugees and former South Vietnamese politicians and Military were housed and processed. The news stories covered the horrific scenes and stories of a people displaced. What they did not cover:


Morning and evening Armored Vehicle runs where the Banking System provided Gold & Silver conversion to US Dollars.
Piles of suitcases, luggage, rag clothing were ripped apart to get at theGold and Silver that was hidden in linings and fixtures.
The Car dealers; particularly high end dealers, taking orders for vehicles and delivering the vehicle once full payment was made, and the buyer driving off the Base.
The Realtors with listings of homes in California, taking orders, and conducting Title transactions once local and foreign bank exchanges had been completed.



Yes, the numbers of 1 and 2 above are a small percentage - but if you did not have Gold and Silver you were not one of those "Fast Tracked" into a new country.

[Sudsy]

I tend to think of gold and silver as commodities that will be used once everything is almost back in order. Before that folks will be needing the necessities. I can't see folks who are struggling willing to take gold or silver. Just my opinion but it think supplies, food, fuel, etc will be the items in demand.

Exactly !
The value of something is "what you can get for it" and no more
Gold is nice because you can transport it easily, however it's value may be very limited in a post apocalyptical world.
Everyday items will likely have more value.
How much of your gold would you give up for a water purification filter? For a brick of .22 ammo, for a blanket on a cold night, for a bottle of antibiotic for your sick child ?

[.429&H110]

Suppose the Chinese come up with a bug that works this time: "The Stand" tells that story.
The future I see is no electricity. No coal, no grid.
No electricity, no water, no Phoenix. The Californians will have to walk back home.
Vegas will be quite a show. Hoover dam might be restarted for power if anybody knows how.
Nothing to eat in New York City.
The Fed will be dead and irrelevant, all politics is local.

Some places like Texas will figure out how to get a seat of gov't and a grid of power back up.
There would be a place for metal coins that are said to have value to buy whisky.

In a cold rural place, there will be no gov't, plenty of nothing, and a lot of starving bandits.
No gasoline, solar cells might be handy to have, you would find out who your friends are.
Alaska would eat everything on four legs in a week, then move on base inside the fence.
Base has a lot of guns and MREs. Will they shoot at the Chinese relief ship or starve?
The Chinese will help them get the pipeline going again, immunize their friends.
China will invade California on a humanitarian mission, welcomed with open arms.
They will be glad if you have hard currency.

Anyway, there would be less than a million Americans left once we run out of ammo.
Anarchy. Money is no good if there is nothing to buy. I hope I do not live to see it.

[hoodat]

I'm thinking that this world has seen some pretty crappy times, and yet nowhere at no time has gold and silver ever been worthless -- or even cheap. jd

[.429&H110]

Back when there were no primers on the shelf, gold would not have bought any.
It may be that primers are priceless, better than gold.
I can buy gold at Walmart.

[rancher1913]

not true, i would have sold primers for gold, but not money. i knew several people that had primers and they would not sell for money but would trade.

[hoodat]

Back in 2005, an ounce of silver and a five dollar bill would buy about two gallons of gas. Today, a five dollar bill will buy one gallon of gas, and an ounce of silver will buy five gallons. Might be a little different where you live, but probably not much. jd

[BrassMagnet]

I would say precious metals would be very useful if we implement a central bank digital currency, and you'd like to privately transact with someone - maybe avoid paying taxes.

As for SHTF, why not just set aside some seeds now. The amount of seeds you can get for the price of one ounce of silver today would be very valuable after a total collapse. You could also use seeds as currency. Restock your "seed store" annually to ensure you have useable seeds the next season. It would be nice to even have seeds to share so neighbors could feed themselves. That would build good will.

319144

1,400 seeds for $30ish bucks. In SHTF, that is money! (And you don't have to prey on other people)

I have seeds. Some of the older ones had a 0% germination rate. So much for that idea unless you also rotate stock or add more every year!

So I think everyone has missed two points worth thinking about very hard!

I have a retired friend who was a licensed financial advisor. Precious metals are considered a terrible investment because they earn no dividends, interest, etc. You have to sell them to get your money back. Also, there is a large difference between buying prices and selling back prices. Now add in the special tax provisions on the sale of precious metals! They are always short term capital gains. The precious metals markets and laws are rigged to make them a losing game. Now consider asset forfeiture laws and straight out theft by government agents during a raid. I have heard many stories over the last forty years of precious metals and cash stolen during raids. Also an uncashed paycheck, too! It was soon cashed! Could a record of large amounts of precious metal purchases get you targeted for a raid and theft of your stored wealth? Might they also kill you to shut you up?

Now for my point to add into this discussion! Maybe you should consider precious metals as an insurance policy which you pay for once and retain coverage as long as you still possess it. Buy ten dollars face value of junk silver and you have one hundred small weights of silver you may be able to trade for something you really want or need. How much of this type of insurance is good without being excessive?

[MUSTANG]

I have to agree with Brass Magnet in his view that Gold/Silver/etc.. can best be described as an "Insurance Policy". As long as one has it physically in hand, it can be sold at a discount to someone (Just like a Life Insurance Policy) if cash is needed, although the return on that sale is probably less than you put into it. Should one expire, the custody of that "Insurance Policy" will transfer to others. If one discusses with family members where it is located ,and who is to have custody and retain or distribute to your request - then it becomes an asset transfer without anyone else being aware. If it is in storage and found or identified as part of the estate, or part of a Will; then it becomes a "Death Taxable" policy based on State and Federal laws and participation.

[hoodat]

Yeah, I kinda like the insurance policy analogy. Not a growth investment such as mutual funds and such, but just try to get at your mutual funds if we have a crash.

Most pawn shops around here deal in silver and gold, and that would increase in an economy in shambles.

We humans seem to have short memories, and tend to forget for instance what we were paying for hamburger just a couple years ago. The condition of our US dollar sucks pretty bad. jd

[MaryB]

I have seeds. Some of the older ones had a 0% germination rate. So much for that idea unless you also rotate stock or add more every year!

So I think everyone has missed two points worth thinking about very hard!

I have a retired friend who was a licensed financial advisor. Precious metals are considered a terrible investment because they earn no dividends, interest, etc. You have to sell them to get your money back. Also, there is a large difference between buying prices and selling back prices. Now add in the special tax provisions on the sale of precious metals! They are always short term capital gains. The precious metals markets and laws are rigged to make them a losing game. Now consider asset forfeiture laws and straight out theft by government agents during a raid. I have heard many stories over the last forty years of precious metals and cash stolen during raids. Also an uncashed paycheck, too! It was soon cashed! Could a record of large amounts of precious metal purchases get you targeted for a raid and theft of your stored wealth? Might they also kill you to shut you up?

Now for my point to add into this discussion! Maybe you should consider precious metals as an insurance policy which you pay for once and retain coverage as long as you still possess it. Buy ten dollars face value of junk silver and you have one hundred small weights of silver you may be able to trade for something you really want or need. How much of this type of insurance is good without being excessive?

Current ask price for silver is $23.03, bid 22.93 BUT there are premiums on silver that can add $5+++ to the price case in point, silver American Eagle 1 oz coins are selling for $29.70 right now!

And I have silver I collected from 1964 on... back then a lot of it showed up in change and I put it all in buckets, still have it... always bought on the deep dips, I paid $8 for a lot of what I have... again it it is a LONG TERM investment. You will not get rich trying to day trade it when day to day changes can be less than 10 cents... only ones making money on those small changes are the big banks selling paper silver(silver is leveraged 100:1 by them, for every physical oz they have they sell 100 paper ounces!) and hedging it in massive amounts, you do an option on $100 mil at a time a 10 cent gain adds up!

[schutzen-jager]

purchased silver stock a little over a decade ago at $30.00, went up to almost $50.00, broker told me to hold it a while longer, dropped to below $13.00 a few weeks later !!! - currently at apx.$22.00 + all the tv + internet sources that it is going to soar in value for past 3 years - at this point i would be happy to recoup my investment - i do have silver coins that i accumulated over the years at face value -

[MaryB]

purchased silver stock a little over a decade ago at $30.00, went up to almost $50.00, broker told me to hold it a while longer, dropped to below $13.00 a few weeks later !!! - currently at apx.$22.00 + all the tv + internet sources that it is going to soar in value for past 3 years - at this point i would be happy to recoup my investment - i do have silver coins that i accumulated over the years at face value -

I would take the loss and get out! Silver spikes and everyone wants to convert to physical JP Morgan and a few other big silver traders are going to fold. They don't have that much silver on hand.

[Lloyd Smale]

I would take the loss and get out! Silver spikes and everyone wants to convert to physical JP Morgan and a few other big silver traders are going to fold. They don't have that much silver on hand.

i agree. those 3 years from now commercials have been airing for over 3 years

[rancher1913]

for those worried about counterfeits, you can get a kit that does NDT testing on coins, it uses metal harmonics and has great success rate.

in order for seeds to be viable long term they have to be stored under precise humidity and temps, we have found our garden seeds are good to about the ten year mark, you do have to plant extra as they age to get the same harvest. saving seed is easy, its keeping it from crossing before saving thats the sticky wicket. i have a bunch of op field corn seed that i redo every few years just in case, have enough to do 30 acres which would give me enough for pig and chicken feed as well as enough seed to double the acreage the next year. i have wheat seed from the 60's that is still viable that i want to redo, its the scout Varity and used to be very popular.

if you do want pm's, stay with what you can hold, no paper, and stay with known kinds like u.s. mint coins or junk silver, the generic rounds scare people because they think its all fake and you will have a harder time passing it to people that dont know pm's

a lone wolf will not last long in a decaying society so make sure you have a clan to help. we have a loose grange type organization for our cows, about 10 local families with contiguous property that will work together to protect the herd just like back in the day. we will be able to sell milk, cheese, beef, pork, chicken, eggs, and grain but like i said before, you will need something besides fiat currency if you want to buy, your 401k wont work

[dverna]

Rancher is spot on about having a "clan" or tribe. I call it a MAG (Mutual Aid Group). And you need a skill or asset that enhances the survival of the group. All of us here have that skill. We can cast bullets and reload ammunition. But that takes some thought and planning.

Being able to cast and load for the .38/55, .32 WCF etc, is far less desirable than .308/.30-30. Pistol .44 Mag or .460 Mag is not as useful and 9mm or .45. I have stuff to load calibers I do not own because people in my MAG have .270's, .30/06's etc. Not difficult or expensive to be equipped to do so. I buy stuff when I see a "good deal". Something useful to add is loading 20 and 12 ga. I keep wads, 20 bags of bird shot and molds to cast buckshot and slugs.

Build (or add on to) your arsenal with calibers likely to be scrounged or "liberated". The .223 is not highly thought of, but you are not going to find a lot of .277 Fury's or .300 BO's on dead bodies. Same for pistols...9mm will be everywhere compared to .357 Mag.

A MAG without a doctor, nurse or veterinarian has much less chance of making it as well.

Just stuff to ponder.

[Reg]

To be successful with seeds, gardening or anything like that takes planing and a certain amount of effort. Care and storing of seeds is important but proper selection to begin with is even more so. Variety to begin with, you want everything to be the heirloom variety but more important you want the variety’s that are proven performers for your area. What does well in one area may not do well in others and you also want several of these proven to your area as one that does well one year may not do well the next. Storage is another consideration.
If a person wants to be successful doing this then it’s time for some serious reading and studying. There are good groups and blogs out there and once you get involved you will be surprised how helpful they will be. Do your homework!

[hoodat]

Most folks who grow a garden these days are more of a hobby farmer than anything. They spend way more than a hundred bucks to grow a hundred bucks worth of vegetables. They would have to seriously "up their game" to make it worth the time and money spent. And food prep, canning, drying, long term storage simply has to be part of the game. jd

[MaryB]

Rancher is spot on about having a "clan" or tribe. I call it a MAG (Mutual Aid Group). And you need a skill or asset that enhances the survival of the group. All of us here have that skill. We can cast bullets and reload ammunition. But that takes some thought and planning.

Being able to cast and load for the .38/55, .32 WCF etc, is far less desirable than .308/.30-30. Pistol .44 Mag or .460 Mag is not as useful and 9mm or .45. I have stuff to load calibers I do not own because people in my MAG have .270's, .30/06's etc. Not difficult or expensive to be equipped to do so. I buy stuff when I see a "good deal". Something useful to add is loading 20 and 12 ga. I keep wads, 20 bags of bird shot and molds to cast buckshot and slugs.

Build (or add on to) your arsenal with calibers likely to be scrounged or "liberated". The .223 is not highly thought of, but you are not going to find a lot of .277 Fury's or .300 BO's on dead bodies. Same for pistols...9mm will be everywhere compared to .357 Mag.

A MAG without a doctor, nurse or veterinarian has much less chance of making it as well.

Just stuff to ponder.

My small town is my group, and we are loosely grouped with 3 other small towns to help protect the farms in the middle for a share of the crops/livestock. Only 2 farmers said no they will go it alone and they are on an edge... they wouldn't last long...we have radio gear stored in EMP roof containers, plenty of 4 wheelers to patrol our sections with, and I have wireless long range cameras(not an off the shelf solution, IP cameras to a mesh network that would be solar powered) I can deploy to also help(pretty flat ground so 3-5 mile viz is the norm and all can zoom)... yes I am the local tech nerd/radio person

[rancher1913]

we are lucky with radios, local small internet provider has a repeater radio set up that once you are accepted into the group you can use as needed, think commercial motorola type set up. i can key my mike and talk to a buddy 100 miles away legally.

[elmacgyver0]

Most folks who grow a garden these days are more of a hobby farmer than anything. They spend way more than a hundred bucks to grow a hundred bucks worth of vegetables. They would have to seriously "up their game" to make it worth the time and money spent. And food prep, canning, drying, long term storage simply has to be part of the game. jd

That's kind of funny, I like to grow tomatoes, I don't even like tomatoes, my wife does though and I do like BLTs.
I like to grow peppers too.
I also grew some cucumbers, don't like those either, they are good made into pickles.

[elmacgyver0]

I have never been much on talking on radios.
My nephew who lives in Texas sent me a Kenwood TS-930S transceiver, but I have not done much with it yet.
I think part of it is being shy and lousy hearing.

[Ed K]

And I have silver I collected from 1964 on... back then a lot of it showed up in change and I put it all in buckets, still have it

Once sorted several tons of dimes for silver. It was a fun project!

[MrWolf]

That would be to hard out here. Not many homes per mile till you get closer to the local towns. One 5 mins away are mostly druggie, etc from what I hear and the other town is about 15 minutes away.

[Gray Fox]

It is easy to forget that during the depression and WWII that many more people than now lived in rural areas and growing food and preserving it was common knowledge and family and friends would get together to can the various veggies, berries and fruits as they ripened. All those folks had a few or lots more chickens. At the same time, many times the above numbers were in-laws and outlaws who lived within 50 or so miles who came to help gather crops and can them, or like many of mine just showed up expecting to take fresh stuff home and were upset when it wasn't already picked for them. Some things never change. The point is, what is the demographic situation now? Many folks like me live in the suburbs and barely have enough land to be a hobby farmer. The last couple of years has proven that to grow anything and pay for enough fencing to keep the deer, squirrels and rabbits out costs way more than is remotely sane. The same money can buy a lot of prepared, storable food now. One year I tried growing in the three sisters mode with corn, beans and squash. The deer, raccoons and crows really laughed. I got not one ear of corn and cucumber worms destroyed every squash. I did get a couple pounds of dried beans.
Bottom line, when SHTF, most of us are only good for as long as our stocks last, and that's assuming our OPSEC has been good enough to allow us to hold on to it. GF

[35 Rem]

Never bothered with precious metals, because the one's selling it were accepting fiat currency as payment.
Then there's the fact that the government can outlaw them like years past.
Finally, even though plenty of people on the titanic could swim, it didn't matter.
My best advice to anyone is to live your life.
Prepare for the minor bumps and inconveniences.
Big picture stuff you most likely won't survive anyways..................

That's always struck me as an obvious indicator that it's not necessarily the best choice. If these precious metals were such a guaranteed way to come out of financial disasters wealthy, why would the people who have them be willing to sell them for this old worthless paper money we now have? :)

Also these coins they always advertise have no established value. When you go to trade them for something during a disaster how are you going to agree on their value? And as has already been stated, what if the thing you want to trade your silver for is worth way less than what you paid for a coin? And another issue that seems obvious to me is that flashing precious metal coins around as payment is going to be talked about. Do it enough and you could find yourself getting cracked on the head and robbed or worse.

[Thundarstick]

If you have things, you've made yourself a target, if you have skills you've made yourself a commodity! I've often read, that people who've survived a real life government collapse, claim that cigarettes and booze are the real investments to have!

I could tell you the jewelry story from Germany at the end of WW2, but I'll just say that a whole lot of material wealth don't go far when your behind the 8 ball.

[Lloyd Smale]

ever wonder why if its so much better then money that 5 times a day i see commercials on tv with people wanting to take my dollars for their gold and silver. if gold is always going up and the dollar is going down why dont they keep it and get richer???

[dverna]

My small town is my group, and we are loosely grouped with 3 other small towns to help protect the farms in the middle for a share of the crops/livestock. Only 2 farmers said no they will go it alone and they are on an edge... they wouldn't last long...we have radio gear stored in EMP roof containers, plenty of 4 wheelers to patrol our sections with, and I have wireless long range cameras(not an off the shelf solution, IP cameras to a mesh network that would be solar powered) I can deploy to also help(pretty flat ground so 3-5 mile viz is the norm and all can zoom)... yes I am the local tech nerd/radio person

A well thought out plan. I was surprised that two farmers decided to go it alone. I thought farmers were smart people...those two are not.

You are correct. Unless your group accepts them after an "event", they will not last long. It is something to think about before it happens. It is a question for every "tribe" to deal with. "Who gets accepted into the MAG and why?" Before an event, that is easier to sort out. Afterwards, it gets dicey. For me, it will boil down to "What do they bring to the party". But there will different opinions. A family with six little kids, who offers nothing of value, with no chance of survivng, is difficult for most people to exclude. A respected leader is important.

A MAG is not a democracy. The leader should be established before things go south.

[rancher1913]

ever wonder why if its so much better then money that 5 times a day i see commercials on tv with people wanting to take my dollars for their gold and silver. if gold is always going up and the dollar is going down why dont they keep it and get richer???

check the fine print on those ads, its all "plated" gold or silver, and the ads are all scams. there will always be fraudsters trying to scam you, doesnt mean pm's are worthless. look back at the wiemer republic and envision how many of those people wish they had some pm's instead of the worthless paper money that took wheel barrows of to buy a loaf of bread.

[1Papalote]

My issue with gold/silver is that we are using paper money to buy g/s which is the insurance against paper money. Sounds like a trick to me . Plus....as an investment, they get 3-10% each time it is bought or sold. My profit would come from increase in value over and above the commission. I'll stick with commodities and ability. A box of ammo could be worth more to those in need. I figure the wealthiest sheisters will be collecting the g/s thru lopsided trading or dubious means.

[Kosh75287]

Never mind.

[reddog81]

not true, i would have sold primers for gold, but not money. i knew several people that had primers and they would not sell for money but would trade.

This mindset makes no sense unless you live somewhere where there is rampant inflation and the value of the currency is in constant flux. And by rampant inflation I mean like 50 to 100% or more. Every business where I live takes USD. The whole point of currency is to use it as a trade medium. Trading primers for money is like trading primers for gold or beer or firewood. I can go to any store that sells gold or beer or firewood and they take USD. People who dispose of stuff and limit offers to trades don't understand that trading money for items is trading.

[rancher1913]

i have no problem taking gold or silver for any of my commodities, right now its more or less same as cash. all one needs to do is study history to understand. when the time comes that you need pm's it will be to late to acquire any unless you have something of extreme value that someone who has gold wants.

the three b's come first but after that if you want to be able to get ahead financially you will need something of value to trade, doesn't have to be pm's

[Lloyd Smale]

check the fine print on those ads, its all "plated" gold or silver, and the ads are all scams. there will always be fraudsters trying to scam you, doesnt mean pm's are worthless. look back at the wiemer republic and envision how many of those people wish they had some pm's instead of the worthless paper money that took wheel barrows of to buy a loaf of bread.

yes there are some of them but also others selling the real thing

[MUSTANG]

One could ask "When would my Precious Metal come into play?"

Consider the following picture.
319338

It is a Wheel Barrel full of German Currency in the 1920's. Note; there is no security on the wheel barrel! Workers were being paid at Noon break, and at end of evening shift - Why, because the money was devaluing so rapidly that they could not buy a loaf of bread for what they were making 24 hours earlier.

My wife's family is from Germany. Her dad came to US in 1921 - he was a German Illegal Alien. He had been a apprentice baker and his contract was sold to a ship, he jumped ship in New York Harbor at 13. He returned to Germany in 1934 but filed with US immigration so he could return to US legally - Saw this Hitler Guy and decided it was not a good deal. Returned to US and became a US Citizen. Any way; her Fathers Father (Grand Father) had a farm. He would put money into a jar, and when a Jar was full he would put it in a Secret Spot along with other Jars. He had enough money and wanted to buy the farm next door; but ..... The German Hyper Inflation hit and ALL of that saved paper currency that could have bought the fam next door became so useless it was not worth burning.

Hyper inflation cam occur rapidly. Check out the value of the Zimbabwean Dollar during Hyper inflation - I carry a Zimbabwean $100 Trillion bill in my wallet as a reminder of what Governments (Ours Included) can do to the value of it's currency with BAD POLICY. We put a little of our savings into Silver and Gold years ago; it's gone up in value against US $; but not dramatically compared to inflation factors - but in a US Hyper Inflation it will not be the paper in a Glass Jars out in the Barn.

319340

[HWooldridge]

My grandparents were born around the turn of the previous century so they were in their 30's when the Great Depression hit. My mother's family was living on a farm that had been established in 1849 and never upgraded much. They were still driving mule teams for plowing until WW2 and had one car per family - either a model T or a model A. There was no phone service and the nearest town was about 9 miles away.

They told me a lot of stories when I was growing up, but to summarize the points discussed here, there wasn't much cash money available and a lot of work was done on barter. In addition to farming, my grandfather was a blacksmith and a butcher, so he could trade out a hog for other groceries. They raised hogs, had a milk cow, and kept chickens - the farm was on a river so there was both fish and wild game available. My mother said they didn't have any extra money but nobody ever went hungry.

Contrast that to a story told to me by a man I used to work for - he was in his early teens when the '29 crash hit - but he lived in urban Newark, NJ. He said they had to beg, borrow and steal to get one chicken - and his mother made it last for a week (family of three). He recalled being hungry on many occasions.

Think about the aftermath of Katrina. Lots of people who couldn't do anything to help themselves and were waiting for someone to come rescue them. Those will be the ones to either die first or turn into roving gangs that will be bent on taking whatever they can get.

I don't know whether precious metals will be worth anything during a government collapse. There was a Twilight Zone episode where a gang of crooks had been cryogenically frozen after conviction for robbing a bank of a bunch of gold. They were accidentally revived several hundred years later and undertook an arduous journey to find the gold stash, which was now in a desert. All of the crooks eventually died of dehydration but were carrying the gold bullion; the cops who found them remarked that water had now become the most precious commodity - and gold was being synthesized artificially so it was effectively worthless.

[MT Gianni]

If you have things, you've made yourself a target, if you have skills you've made yourself a commodity! I've often read, that people who've survived a real life government collapse, claim that cigarettes and booze are the real investments to have!

I could tell you the jewelry story from Germany at the end of WW2, but I'll just say that a whole lot of material wealth don't go far when your behind the 8 ball.

Booze and tobacco are great trading items for the first three weeks until the addicts are either dead or over their addictions. If it gets extended, they are unneeded luxuries.

[MUSTANG]

As things go to the bottom - Alcohol will be the last anti-septic left.

[hoodat]

Booze and tobacco are great trading items for the first three weeks until the addicts are either dead or over their addictions. If it gets extended, they are unneeded luxuries.

You must know an entirely different class of boozers and smokers than I do. Most of em would murder their mom for a smoke if they were out for a couple weeks. jd

[rancher1913]

i suppose the new cars might be good for something, those e-85 engines might be able to be bumped up to e-100 and then you can distill your own fuel-----if you have the gold to buy the corn :popcorn:

[hoodat]

i suppose the new cars might be good for something, those e-85 engines might be able to be bumped up to e-100 and then you can distill your own fuel-----if you have the gold to buy the corn :popcorn:

On a serious note, I think that having a stable full of decent running used cars would be a pretty good investment these days; probably better than silver and gold. When almost any new car costs thirty grand or so, there is a lot of folks who will gladly pay ten or fifteen thou for a used one that's actually worth five. jd

[HWooldridge]

On a serious note, I think that having a stable full of decent running used cars would be a pretty good investment these days; probably better than silver and gold. When almost any new car costs thirty grand or so, there is a lot of folks who will gladly pay ten or fifteen thou for a used one that's actually worth five. jd

That is true - I have strangers approach me in parking lots and ask whether my ‘97 F250 is for sale. I say no then drive away. There is a strong market for this price range - I work with a guy who buys cars at auction then makes a few repairs and flips them. He probably pulls down an extra $50K per year working part time.

[hoodat]

I just bought a 2007 Lexus for 2500 bucks. It is in great shape even for a car half it's age -- pretty much a God send. I think I could double or even triple my money -- but-- Mrs. hoodat has already fell in love with it. jd

[GrayTech]

Skills are the only tradable commodity that cannot be stolen from you, bar slavery. Medical and healing skills will likely be king right from the onset, repair and maker skills high on the list too as things progress.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[JSnover]

One could ask "When would my Precious Metal come into play?"

Consider the following picture.
319338

It is a Wheel Barrel full of German Currency in the 1920's. Note; there is no security on the wheel barrel! Workers were being paid at Noon break, and at end of evening shift - Why, because the money was devaluing so rapidly that they could not buy a loaf of bread for what they were making 24 hours earlier.

319340

It's true.
Germany, Zimbabwe... An Economics professor told me about his trip to Brazil in the 70s or 80s, if I remember. Workers would be paid cash on Friday afternoon and literally run from the plant to pay bills and buy whatever groceries they could because that handful of money wouldn't be worth as much by the Saturday morning.

[Lloyd Smale]

if you still had paper money during the depression it was still good. problem was people did not have paper money because the stock market crashed and it bankrupted the people who paid the wages so no one was earning money. but if you were sitting on a pile of cash you were set just fine. matter of fact my grandfather said people were trying to sell rings and jewlery to buy food and got pennies on the dollar because there just wasnt a market to resell it. people wanted bread not gold and it was rare to find anyone that would sell food for gold because they at that time didnt understand the market or more often just werent set up to take it and resell it to get that rare paper money. he said there were places in the citys that did it but in rural areas it was barter or paper money. another thing that would make people skeptical in a full on shtf senerio is the internet would be down and there would be no way that anyone could keep track of the price its selling for day to day.

just thinking out loud on this one. what if the value of the dollar crashed. our government would be broke too . so what would be common sense if gold was still worth what it always has been? my guess is they would open the doors at fort knox and flood the market with gold and doing that would make its worth crash.

[MUSTANG]

if you still had paper money during the depression it was still good. problem was people did not have paper money because the stock market crashed and it bankrupted the people who paid the wages so no one was earning money. but if you were sitting on a pile of cash you were set just fine. matter of fact my grandfather said people were trying to sell rings and jewlery to buy food and got pennies on the dollar because there just wasnt a market to resell it. people wanted bread not gold and it was rare to find anyone that would sell food for gold because they at that time didnt understand the market or more often just werent set up to take it and resell it to get that rare paper money. he said there were places in the citys that did it but in rural areas it was barter or paper money. another thing that would make people skeptical in a full on shtf senerio is the internet would be down and there would be no way that anyone could keep track of the price its selling for day to day.

just thinking out loud on this one. what if the value of the dollar crashed. our government would be broke too . so what would be common sense if gold was still worth what it always has been? my guess is they would open the doors at fort knox and flood the market with gold and doing that would make its worth crash.

Post 101 and and post 111 are opposite ends of the Fiscal Disaster spectrum. In 101 the currency was Inflated to have less value in the zero's than the paper the zeros were printed on. In 111 the money supply was RESTRICTED. Banks would not loan, people would only buy essentials (discounting the emergence of the mafia, numbers rackets, gin joints, and drug dealers). For those who had cash (except the rubber wealthy)sat on it and literally hid it under the mattress, Banks foreclosed at any opportunity because they needed hard assets on the books to forestall insolvency (Banks are built on a Ponzi Scheme where they lend 7:1, 20:1, even 100:1 against the actual money they have). The Dem-God Roosevelt confiscated Gold to forestall the populace from demanding either Silver/Gold for payment; or demanding 2:1, 7:1, 100:1, or even ∞:1 exchange of an item for paper currency (see Germany and Zimbabwe in post 101). Stabilization of the currency and hoarding USofA Gold to use as a lever in International politics was the goal of the Demi-God Roosevelts Gold Confiscation policy.

If Gold and Silver and ______ have no value in crisis - why do governments seek to confiscate it and hold it in their coffers. Of course when a country falls, whatever leaders are left towards the end Abscond with the Gold, Silver, _____ to some distant country.

[MT Gianni]

My Great grandfather shipped his calves and old cows to the cow palace in San Francisco from Lyndale Utah in 1927. In between the shipping and arrival the market crashed and he, with no reserve or secondary buyer, found the sale price was insufficient to pay shipping cost. He lost $0.10 a head from the herd that would pay him for the next year. He kept the ranch for the next 7 years until he lost it in a scam. The government said that if you had defaulted on a loan you would not loose your property unless you had paid recently. The lenders sent people out to harass the outstanding people and great grandpa gave them a dollar. They foreclosed on the ranch as he had money to pay on it but it took 7 years.
We are speculation on things we imagine but are not sure of.

[MaryB]

if you still had paper money during the depression it was still good. problem was people did not have paper money because the stock market crashed and it bankrupted the people who paid the wages so no one was earning money. but if you were sitting on a pile of cash you were set just fine. matter of fact my grandfather said people were trying to sell rings and jewlery to buy food and got pennies on the dollar because there just wasnt a market to resell it. people wanted bread not gold and it was rare to find anyone that would sell food for gold because they at that time didnt understand the market or more often just werent set up to take it and resell it to get that rare paper money. he said there were places in the citys that did it but in rural areas it was barter or paper money. another thing that would make people skeptical in a full on shtf senerio is the internet would be down and there would be no way that anyone could keep track of the price its selling for day to day.

just thinking out loud on this one. what if the value of the dollar crashed. our government would be broke too . so what would be common sense if gold was still worth what it always has been? my guess is they would open the doors at fort knox and flood the market with gold and doing that would make its worth crash.

There are communications methods other than the internet... I have a desk full of radios...

https://i.imgur.com/wgNHz2v.jpg

[rancher1913]

if you still had paper money during the depression it was still good. problem was people did not have paper money because the stock market crashed and it bankrupted the people who paid the wages so no one was earning money. but if you were sitting on a pile of cash you were set just fine. matter of fact my grandfather said people were trying to sell rings and jewlery to buy food and got pennies on the dollar because there just wasnt a market to resell it. people wanted bread not gold and it was rare to find anyone that would sell food for gold because they at that time didnt understand the market or more often just werent set up to take it and resell it to get that rare paper money. he said there were places in the citys that did it but in rural areas it was barter or paper money. another thing that would make people skeptical in a full on shtf senerio is the internet would be down and there would be no way that anyone could keep track of the price its selling for day to day.

just thinking out loud on this one. what if the value of the dollar crashed. our government would be broke too . so what would be common sense if gold was still worth what it always has been? my guess is they would open the doors at fort knox and flood the market with gold and doing that would make its worth crash.

during the great depression the fiat money was backed by gold and silver, thats no longer the case

[JimB..]

Silver I bought in 2001 for $8/oz is now worth $23.45. I call that a good rate of return. My dollar cost average(add up all your paid prices and divide by total ounces) is currently running $12/oz... still a really good rate of return! And long term it is running about 50% higher than the inflation rate so again a good investment.

To many think of silver like day trading, go in for a quick buck. Nope, that is a recipe to lose money! Silver is a long term investment!

Sorry, I’ve been away.

For simple math, cause that’s all I do, you put $8 into silver and have $23, growth of 2.87x. Same period DJIA went from $9,200 to $32,400, growth of 3.5x. Same period the NASDAQ composite went from $2,000 to $12,600, growth of 5.3x.

Silver hasn’t been bad as an investment over this period.

Of course many believe that silver is artificially depressed, that it should be much much higher and will eventually “pop” up to a “proper” value relative to gold. If that happens, holders of silver win big.

[rancher1913]

like has been hammered thru out this thread, pm's are not a make money to the max item, they are a store of money that can make some money. with pm's, unless you are a real idiot, you hold physical in your hand and it can not be taken from you with out force. anything on paper can be taken on a whim by the corporations that have supplied it, be it paper gold or paper stocks. why do you think all the investors killed themselves in the 20's when the market crashed. everybody says it cant happen now until it does and everybody holding paper gets shorted. why do you think all the big fish are looking for investments that they can hold, like farmground. personally i think ground is a better investment than gold but i am priced out of the market now. my gold will pay my taxes so i can keep what ground i have and possibly pay delinquent taxes on other ground so i can own it.

[Lloyd Smale]

If Gold and Silver and ______ have no value in crisis - why do governments seek to confiscate it and hold it in their coffers. Of course when a country falls, whatever leaders are left towards the end Abscond with the Gold, Silver, _____ to some distant country. because they realize every crisis we have been through are short term and that we will recover. in a real shtf senerio where weve lost our goverment and people are in survival mode and struggling to find food day to day the average guy will find that money and gold are useless. or if russia and china walk in here they will take it from you and if they find out you hid it from them shoot you in front of the rest of us to set an example. that is for the most part whats being discussed here. not the inflation we are seeing today or a stock market crash we will eventually come out of.

im not into gold and this is a legit question. inflation in the last year has gone up 5% give or take. did gold go up that much or more in that time? some say the real number is closer to 10%. if you want an investment that has always stood the test of time over the long run invest in land or properties. i bought two 40s with a camp in 1989 ror 23k. last summer my brother in law was out at camp and two guys stopped by and offered to buy it for 250k.

if shtf i have 10 acers cleared and cultivated i could grow food on. deer, bear and small game to eat and timber that could be harvested and sold. add to that its out in the sticks and surrounded on three sides by 1000s of acres of state land and other then one camp the nearest home is 18 miles away . now which would serve you better if shtf. that 80 acres or some rocks. youll be begging me to trade come beans and venison for your rocks and it will be a wasted trip. only thig id trade for is diesel fuel and seeds and really wouldnt need the seeds and the only other camp nearby is a buddy that lives there year round and has plow horses and old school equipment.

if you dont have land or worse yet live in a city or suburb that is where the troubles will really be. chances are you dont have food or if you do someone will kill you for it so dump your rocks now and buy a 40 as far from the citys as you can get. best case senerio is nothing happens and you have a piece of land that if you had the sense to buy good land will pace the value of your gold. noe i know there is some here that have a good setup for just in case and want gold too. Me i have 10-15 years left at best. im not sitting around my house admiring some rocks. im going to spend my money having as much fun as i can. lifes to short and you cant take it to heaven. your family can split up your gold and mine can fight over guns and toys and property and if there smart will get together and decide to keep camp the guns and food and ammo so they have somewhere to try to get by.

[MUSTANG]

And on the other side of the coin (Pun intended); that land that one purchased will be subject to an annual County/Municipal/State Tax or variety of Taxes depending on location. Additionally, most pieces of land require maintenance, even if it is only periodic road maintenance to allow access to the property. If one leaves that "Wealth" to the next generation or other loved ones, once again depending on County/Municipal/State/Federal Law; there Tax man arrives and strips at least a portion of that wealth from those it is left to (Many Family Farms lost when passed to next generation and Tax Man wants his share but the family does not have $$ to pay and have to Borrow or sell to resolve).

Whereas most Precious metal is fairly small and easy to store and relocate. If one were to choose to do so; it remains "Unknown" by any but those the owner chooses to disclose to - including being passed to next generations. The Tax Man and the Governments may frown on it - but then again whey can only act on what they have records of or have direct knowledge of.

For full open disclosure. I have both land and a limited amount of Gold/Silver. My land/property is 1/2 revenue generation; the rest costs me annually due to taxes.

[kaiser]

I think diesel for a truck or car was mentioned of things to save - I agreed. It stores at least 10 times longer than regular gas; and cooking oil, or rendered animal fat can be used in its place (if kept from "gelling" during cold weather). I also agree that land will be more valuable than gold, but you will need lots of bullets to secure it if you live near a big city!

[Lloyd Smale]

And on the other side of the coin (Pun intended); that land that one purchased will be subject to an annual County/Municipal/State Tax or variety of Taxes depending on location. Additionally, most pieces of land require maintenance, even if it is only periodic road maintenance to allow access to the property. If one leaves that "Wealth" to the next generation or other loved ones, once again depending on County/Municipal/State/Federal Law; there Tax man arrives and strips at least a portion of that wealth from those it is left to (Many Family Farms lost when passed to next generation and Tax Man wants his share but the family does not have $$ to pay and have to Borrow or sell to resolve).

Whereas most Precious metal is fairly small and easy to store and relocate. If one were to choose to do so; it remains "Unknown" by any but those the owner chooses to disclose to - including being passed to next generations. The Tax Man and the Governments may frown on it - but then again whey can only act on what they have records of or have direct knowledge of.

For full open disclosure. I have both land and a limited amount of Gold/Silver. My land/property is 1/2 revenue generation; the rest costs me annually due to taxes.

shtf senerio when the government fails there's no one to collect taxes and as a michigan resident thats a 100% disabled vet i dont have to pay property tax and if i die it wont be taxed till the wife dies too. then it will be left to 4 nephews that can split the taxes. i believe when you sell gold you have to pay capital gain tax. unless your the hunter biden type that cheats on his fair share of taxes and puts that burden on the rest of us tax payers. seems to me its around 30 percent same as what you would if i sold my camp. difference is most buy gold and hope it goes up then sell it. my property will never be sold. will even says it cant be sold by the nephews unless all 4 agree and they all use it more then i do and wouldnt think of selling it. by the way you just told the world you have gold. are you going to cough up the location when there's a knife at your wifes throat????? if i had gold i sure wouldnt tell the internet

[hoodat]

This thread certainly got more response than I expected when I started it. Also seems to be some pretty strong opinions concerning "for vs against" purchasing and owning precious metals as a hedge against hard times. I guess I come down on the side that says that it couldn't hurt. I think that gold and silver could be considered a "hard asset" that will still have value even if our cash becomes worthless.

I think we all know just how much our actual dollars are worth at this point when our collective debt is so high that the country will likely never recover from it without some bizarre form of national bankruptcy.

I think that when the shysters that run the show, (and I don't mean Trump or Biden) decide to make their move, there will be a lot of gnashing of teeth, and tearing of hair, and little we can do about it. Our 401-k's, bank accounts, VA Benefits, Social Security (retirement and disability) pensions of every type, -- virtually all of our collective wealth will be converted into the "New Improved" digital dollar. The folks who will like this the most will be the folks who have the least, because they're gonna get a share of wealth from those who have the most. This actually is already happening in case ya haven't noticed.

When this or whatever version of it happens, I think that having some hard assets like gold, silver, guns, ammo, and many others will be a good thing -- at least where I live. jd

[kerplode]

i believe when you sell gold you have to pay capital gain tax.

This is correct. Current US tax code treats bullion as an "alternative investment" and it is subject to capital gains taxation. Short term gains (held < 1yr) are taxed at your nominal income rate. Long term gains (held > 1yr) are taxed at 28% regardless of your bracket. This is because the IRS further classifies bullion as a "collectable" -> For collectables, capital gains are always taxed at the maximum rate and claiming capital losses is generally excluded.

This, coupled with the buy/sell spreads and possible sales tax on the purchase, makes bullion a difficult investment to come out ahead on. If you buy at 5% over spot plus 8% sales taxes, then sell at 3% under spot and possibly pay 28% on any gains, there has to be a big change in valuation to put this equation in the green...Your holding period needs to essentially be infinite.



When this or whatever version of it happens, I think that having some hard assets like gold, silver, guns, ammo, and many others will be a good thing -- at least where I live. jd

Agreed...Hard assets are definitely an asset in hard times.

[cabezaverde]

I have always thought booze, cigarettes, and feminine hygiene products.

[MUSTANG]

When SHTF Property Rights are meaningless and the value of Precious metals slides down the scale towards lead.

I wonder how many commenting have seen TRUE POVERTY and Authoritarian Governments in total control?

[rancher1913]

When SHTF Property Rights are meaningless and the value of Precious metals slides down the scale towards lead.

I wonder how many commenting have seen TRUE POVERTY and Authoritarian Governments in total control?

probably none of us first hand but they make these things called books and you can use them to study history if your so inclined :razz:

[john.k]

In those history books ,you might see that last time SHTF for a many people ,the Democrat s made it illegal to own gold beyond a bit of jewellery ,and you would have to sell all your gold to the feds for a couple of dollars an ounce.

[MUSTANG]

I find it strange that many see "The way I am doing it" as the only solution. Precious Metals, or Land, or Beans & Rice, or....

My solution has always been "All of the Above". Just for giggles - consider I was clueless and did not know we grew up poor - didn't see the difference until I went into the USMC. Growing up it's just how it was for the extended Family relatives and people we knew. No one I/we went hungry although meals were plain fare quite often; but we did not even have a TV until 1967 - although several relatives did.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya the truth is its all a roll of the dice and its why at my age my main concern with money isnt next year its today. i really dont care what my money will buy 10 or 20 years from now when someone else is spending it

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I find it strange that many see "The way I am doing it" as the only solution. Precious Metals, or Land, or Beans & Rice, or.... My solution has always been "All of the Above".

Here lies the best solution, I think. But you can be assured that you will always have overlooked something.

DG

[rockrat]

Read a science fiction book a long time ago where part of a state was moved to an alternate reality. It opened with a guy hunting with 75 yr old 22 lr ammo (that cost a lot) and he ended up shooting a deer (which he indicated were a rarity) and trading part of it for other things. The fellow he traded with was the wealthiest guy around and made his fortune with a mill and a distillery/brewery. He would charge people part of their crop, to grind it to meal/flour, then use that to make whisky and beer.
So, gold or silver ( I would lean towards silver) and whisky, along with ammo and diesel/propane and your food and water (and filtering systems) and secure storage.

[rancher1913]

In those history books ,you might see that last time SHTF for a many people ,the Democrat s made it illegal to own gold beyond a bit of jewellery ,and you would have to sell all your gold to the feds for a couple of dollars an ounce.

only the fools turned it in, most hid it and used it in the black market. kind of like not if but when they ban guns, will you turn yours in or hide them until needed.

[hoodat]

If they tell us we gotta turn in our gold and guns, we've got to do it don't we??:roll:
'
'

[.429&H110]

I mis-spent some years in the oily trade, serving propane, gasoline, diesel dispensers, fuel tanks, trucks, burners, and I must say that gasoline especially the alcohol blends do not store well. If you put a dose of Stabil in good gasoline, keep it corked and cool, I have used gasoline stashes a year old, but I never tried for longer than that, I suppose a lot would depend on the engine you are trying to start.
Kerosene, number 2 fuel and diesel on the other hand, with an algecide, like "Diesel-pep" do seem to store forever.
Parafin blocks will actually store forever for sure.

Any steel tank that has water on the bottom, and they all do, will rust through. Eventually is a long time, the water will breed a slime that lives in the dark that eats oil, making sludge. #2 oil comes pre-sludged, I recommend a Garber cartridge on a Smart filter ahead of any oil pump because the traditional cellulose filters just are not fine enough. A cellulose filter will pass water, a spin-on will not.

A lot of people do not understand that without the grid, there are no pumps.

Diesel-Pep is the Alaskan's friend, disperses moisture and lowers the pour point.

[35 Rem]

I mis-spent some years in the oily trade, serving propane, gasoline, diesel dispensers, fuel tanks, trucks, burners, and I must say that gasoline especially the alcohol blends do not store well. If you put a dose of Stabil in good gasoline, keep it corked and cool, I have used gasoline stashes a year old, but I never tried for longer than that, I suppose a lot would depend on the engine you are trying to start.
Kerosene, number 2 fuel and diesel on the other hand, with an algecide, like "Diesel-pep" do seem to store forever.
Parafin blocks will actually store forever for sure.

Any steel tank that has water on the bottom, and they all do, will rust through. Eventually is a long time, the water will breed a slime that lives in the dark that eats oil, making sludge. #2 oil comes pre-sludged, I recommend a Garber cartridge on a Smart filter ahead of any oil pump because the traditional cellulose filters just are not fine enough. A cellulose filter will pass water, a spin-on will not.

A lot of people do not understand that without the grid, there are no pumps.

Diesel-Pep is the Alaskan's friend, disperses moisture and lowers the pour point.

This is a "one data point" result that I am in no way saying is repeatable but it did happen. I have a 1973 Pontiac Grand Am with a 455 engine that sits outside by my detached garage. It has sat 12 years without being started with a tank full of gas treated with Stabil. I got inspired to do something with it a few months ago and after taking the plugs out to squirt some oil into the cylinders, the darned thing cranked and ran. Yes, with 12-year-old gas in the tank. I ran it about 20 minutes. Of course, it ran rough and smoked but it gradually got better. I would have bet money that it would NOT run but glad I didn't. So, gas can be stored longer than Stabil claims on their bottles but how much is subject to debate. For the purposes of this discussion, I think you could feel fairly confident that gas could be kept for 5 years for use in something like a generator or tiller to work a garden. When it comes to cars, trucks or other vehicles used for transportation, few people have the means to store enough gas to last long enough to worry about storage life. The fuel will be consumed long before it goes bad.

[.429&H110]

Pipe fitting is a fun job, when you are young, but I got old.
Long ago you could buy #2 (nothing reeks worse than high sulfur #2) when the price was down at a cash discount. I doubt if there are any deals any more. People would hire me to install a pair of 330 gallon tanks, tanks made to fit through a door. 660 was the maximum indoor storage without a fire wall. So some people built a bunker and I happily put four of the heavy things in a spillproof contained concrete cellar hole. They poured an underground stinky shed outside the foundation, very clever. 1000 gallons would get most Yankees through to when oil was cheap again. I remember when #2 passed $1.00 a gallon, and Yankees refused to buy it, they burned wood that winter.
Other people had different ideas, but for me each 330 (or 275) had it own whistle and fill
two tanks max teed to a two inch vent: four 1.25" fills; two 2" vents. There will be no leaks.
Once upon a time, very commonly two tanks were piped in series, one fill, one vent. The modern truck's pumps could and did easily split the end weld, loosing a couple hundred gallons of stinking oil into the cellar. I was spill response, strong stomach, strong back.
Once upon a time, people buried 1000 gallon single wall tanks in their front yards, a disaster waiting to happen. Fairbanks has a generation of buried single wall 1000 gallon tanks, they were good tanks, tarred and buried in sand. They corrode from the inside out, from the sulfury bacterial sludge. They are all gonna leak, someday.
The last two tanks I buried were a pair of 10,000 gallon double wall with fill containment and intersticial alarms, cost most of $100k. The tank insurance will pay for removal in 20 years. If you want to burn 30 gallons an hour, you need a lot of 30 gallonses.
Truck would bring 9300 gallons per trip, $26,000?

[snowwolfe]

If I was forced to pick two items for a SHTF situation it would be 9mm ammo and 9mm Glocks.
However, I been hearing of this SHTF stuff since the middle 1960’s and it hasn’t happened yet. I no longer pay attention to it and we just live our lives.

[Lloyd Smale]

gas with stabil will last 2 years if used in 4 stroke motor. 2 strokes are more finiky and its about a year for them. both might start 5 years from now but your octane level will be so low that you will have detonation that will destroy your motor when you put a load on it

[Lloyd Smale]

Pipe fitting is a fun job, when you are young, but I got old.
Long ago you could buy #2 (nothing reeks worse than high sulfur #2) when the price was down at a cash discount. I doubt if there are any deals any more. People would hire me to install a pair of 330 gallon tanks, tanks made to fit through a door. 660 was the maximum indoor storage without a fire wall. So some people built a bunker and I happily put four of the heavy things in a spillproof contained concrete cellar hole. They poured an underground stinky shed outside the foundation, very clever. 1000 gallons would get most Yankees through to when oil was cheap again. I remember when #2 passed $1.00 a gallon, and Yankees refused to buy it, they burned wood that winter.
Other people had different ideas, but for me each 330 (or 275) had it own whistle and fill
two tanks max teed to a two inch vent: four 1.25" fills; two 2" vents. There will be no leaks.
Once upon a time, very commonly two tanks were piped in series, one fill, one vent. The modern truck's pumps could and did easily split the end weld, loosing a couple hundred gallons of stinking oil into the cellar. I was spill response, strong stomach, strong back.
Once upon a time, people buried 1000 gallon single wall tanks in their front yards, a disaster waiting to happen. Fairbanks has a generation of buried single wall 1000 gallon tanks, they were good tanks, tarred and buried in sand. They corrode from the inside out, from the sulfury bacterial sludge. They are all gonna leak, someday.
The last two tanks I buried were a pair of 10,000 gallon double wall with fill containment and intersticial alarms, cost most of $100k. The tank insurance will pay for removal in 20 years. If you want to burn 30 gallons an hour, you need a lot of 30 gallonses.
Truck would bring 9300 gallons per trip, $26,000?

now take away the real thing that will put us to our knees. Electricity!!! without it you cant power the pumps that pump it or fill the trucks that deliver it or the refinerys that make it. think your going to find canned goods and beens and rice. they all rely on electricity. how long do you think whats out there now will last. going to grow it youself. hope you have you seeds because nobody is going to give you some. do you have fertile land that will produce a crop every year without fertilizer? are you physicaly capable of growing it with only a shovel and hoe? im not!! then do you have people to stand guard it 24/7}?? this isnt the peaceful life your used to. people will do any thing for your food including kill you and your kids.

stores?? they wont be you friendly dry goods store of the 1800s. chances are they dont even exist because they would ransacked and the owner killed and like i said how would he replace his stock. how will he keep all the food we are used to with no refrigeration? want a steak? how long before all the city people fleeing their homes have killed them all? Even your horse if you have one. personally i wouldnt swap you a can of Cambells soup for a lb of gold. like is said we are only 2 weeks from anarchy. a few emps that take out our grid will bring us to our knees. nobody today will last without electricity and even if you can and are prepared someone's going to kill you to take it.

personally if i have to farm with hand tools and cut my firewood with an axe and buck saw i hope the end comes quick because any more i couldnt even if i wanted to. i doubt that even one percent of the people here have the skills to survive our great grandparents had and they didnt have angry mobs attacking them and even then were dammed lucky to make it to 60. what you get with these posts is walter middy/red dawn dreamers. most of us would be dead in a year.

Think we will quickly recover. an emp will take out all the transformers on you pole. we kept about a 100 of them in various sizes and had around 10k of customers. even if yours was replaced all the substation transformers would be destroyed too and our entire company has 3 spares and our areas substation had 8 of them and our small utility has around 50 substations. get a new one? other utilities will be facing the same so your not getting one from them. new one? they are made overseas and it takes about 6 months to get one under normal circumstances. it will take decades to get the if this happens here and probably never if all the nato countrys are facing the same thing.

thats just an emp. add a ground war or ground nukes and radiation to the mix. if you think shiny rocks will be the difference for you your stupid enough that instead of a year id give you 2 months. at least i can use dollar bills for a fire starter;-). me? im 67 and this IS RETIREMENT. i dont worry about saving money or gold that will be worthless if shtf or if i croke tomorrow. i spend my money and will enjoy my last years. i have food put up that would last me a year. i have plenty of guns and ammo. i can get water with a pitcher pump if i have to. so if nobody shoots me ill make it a year. if its lasts longer than that i hope God takes me quickly

[MaryB]

now take away the real thing that will put us to our knees. Electricity!!! without it you cant power the pumps that pump it or fill the trucks that deliver it or the refinerys that make it. think your going to find canned goods and beens and rice. they all rely on electricity. how long do you think whats out there now will last. going to grow it youself. hope you have you seeds because nobody is going to give you some. do you have fertile land that will produce a crop every year without fertilizer? are you physicaly capable of growing it with only a shovel and hoe? im not!! then do you have people to stand guard it 24/7}?? this isnt the peaceful life your used to. people will do any thing for your food including kill you and your kids.

stores?? they wont be you friendly dry goods store of the 1800s. chances are they dont even exist because they would ransacked and the owner killed and like i said how would he replace his stock. how will he keep all the food we are used to with no refrigeration? want a steak? how long before all the city people fleeing their homes have killed them all? Even your horse if you have one. personally i wouldnt swap you a can of Cambells soup for a lb of gold. like is said we are only 2 weeks from anarchy. a few emps that take out our grid will bring us to our knees. nobody today will last without electricity and even if you can and are prepared someone's going to kill you to take it.

personally if i have to farm with hand tools and cut my firewood with an axe and buck saw i hope the end comes quick because any more i couldnt even if i wanted to. i doubt that even one percent of the people here have the skills to survive our great grandparents had and they didnt have angry mobs attacking them and even then were dammed lucky to make it to 60. what you get with these posts is walter middy/red dawn dreamers. most of us would be dead in a year.

Think we will quickly recover. an emp will take out all the transformers on you pole. we kept about a 100 of them in various sizes and had around 10k of customers. even if yours was replaced all the substation transformers would be destroyed too and our entire company has 3 spares and our areas substation had 8 of them and our small utility has around 50 substations. get a new one? other utilities will be facing the same so your not getting one from them. new one? they are made overseas and it takes about 6 months to get one under normal circumstances. it will take decades to get the if this happens here and probably never if all the nato countrys are facing the same thing.

thats just an emp. add a ground war or ground nukes and radiation to the mix. if you think shiny rocks will be the difference for you your stupid enough that instead of a year id give you 2 months. at least i can use dollar bills for a fire starter;-). me? im 67 and this IS RETIREMENT. i dont worry about saving money or gold that will be worthless if shtf or if i croke tomorrow. i spend my money and will enjoy my last years. i have food put up that would last me a year. i have plenty of guns and ammo. i can get water with a pitcher pump if i have to. so if nobody shoots me ill make it a year. if its lasts longer than that i hope God takes me quickly

Your average city dweller won't make it 20 miles walking before someone kills them and takes whatever they have... It will end up being gang bangers who start roving out of the city once they have stripped it clean and killed off many of each other. And how far will they make it into the country before someone takes them out?

[MUSTANG]

Your average city dweller won't make it 20 miles walking before someone kills them and takes whatever they have... It will end up being gang bangers who start roving out of the city once they have stripped it clean and killed off many of each other. And how far will they make it into the country before someone takes them out?

Which is why I know of several small communities in both Nevada and Montana who have had "The Local Radicals" plan for such a Diaspora of City Folk out of the Cities - particularly roving gangs. These communities usually have road and terrain advantages allowing locals to emplace roadblocks to challenge and turn; then deal with if necessary, the displaced city folk coming their direction in case of a Dystopian Future.

I was requested to join several of these groups, which I declined, but told them if the World Turns Upside down come see me and I will "Help" in that Dystopian Future.

[Lloyd Smale]

Your average city dweller won't make it 20 miles walking before someone kills them and takes whatever they have... It will end up being gang bangers who start roving out of the city once they have stripped it clean and killed off many of each other. And how far will they make it into the country before someone takes them out?

and that is exactly why ammo is Much more important than gold. gold just might make you a target of stupid gang bangers that like shiny things. ammo makes them the target. neither side stays alive long without food and water. shtf and in a year you'll wish you would have sold that gold today and bought more food not only to eat but to use as currency. what sucks for gold and silver is they put inflated numbers on it. its why those sellers are on tv trying to get you to buy. they try to get close to spot price from gullible buyers when they pick it up for its real street value thats 20-30% below spot price. that fact alone makes it a poor investment. Long term? you not only have to factor that in but add to it inflation and cost of living. Its exactly why land is a better investment. i have been offered substantially more for my camp then its appraised at and in many cases you can say the same about home. ever see someone offer you 20% over spot for your gold.

[rancher1913]

good luck holding onto that camp when the taxes come due and all you have is useless fiat money. you can argue all you want that "they" wont be able to tax you or take your land but history says otherwise. you can shoot every jack boot thug that tries to evict you but sooner or later they will get you, much better to have something to make a payment with. you can argue till the cows come home that pm's are worthless but history says otherwise and i for one would rather have a few gold coins, worst thing that happens to me is i wasted a little money, worst thing that could happen with out a few gold coins is i lose my home to whatever passes for a government.

[.429&H110]

i betcha you could pay your town tax with bricks of 22LR maybe even today.

Somewhere in America is a big rock candy mountain of millions of 22LR. They could be our new dollar, keep the change.

[MaryB]

and that is exactly why ammo is Much more important than gold. gold just might make you a target of stupid gang bangers that like shiny things. ammo makes them the target. neither side stays alive long without food and water. shtf and in a year you'll wish you would have sold that gold today and bought more food not only to eat but to use as currency. what sucks for gold and silver is they put inflated numbers on it. its why those sellers are on tv trying to get you to buy. they try to get close to spot price from gullible buyers when they pick it up for its real street value thats 20-30% below spot price. that fact alone makes it a poor investment. Long term? you not only have to factor that in but add to it inflation and cost of living. Its exactly why land is a better investment. i have been offered substantially more for my camp then its appraised at and in many cases you can say the same about home. ever see someone offer you 20% over spot for your gold.


Why? I already have ammo, food, water sources(multiple, I can filter the local swamp if I have to!), my family will bug out to my house, they have already brought their trailers loaded with supplies and stored it here. So there will be 20+ guns defending it... I am literally in the middle of nowhere too! No direct road here from a big city...

[rancher1913]

unfortunately mary we are beating a dead horse, some people wake up to late to save themselves. i am not setting up my home for me, i am setting it up so my family years from now, still has a refuge.

as for trading ammo in a shtf type setting, all your doing is giving them something to kill you with. nobody gets any of my guns or ammo except my wife and kids. trade alcohol or food but dont trade something that can be used to hurt you.

[Lloyd Smale]

good luck holding onto that camp when the taxes come due and all you have is useless fiat money. you can argue all you want that "they" wont be able to tax you or take your land but history says otherwise. you can shoot every jack boot thug that tries to evict you but sooner or later they will get you, much better to have something to make a payment with. you can argue till the cows come home that pm's are worthless but history says otherwise and i for one would rather have a few gold coins, worst thing that happens to me is i wasted a little money, worst thing that could happen with out a few gold coins is i lose my home to whatever passes for a government.

in a real shtf senerio there will be no government. what happens to the value of the gold which basically is backing up currency when the government fails and mobs descend on fort knox and all that gold hits the street? my guess is you wont get a loaf of bread for 5lbs of it. since the government has failed or flat broke the guards will have gone home along with the tax collectors.

[Lloyd Smale]

Why? I already have ammo, food, water sources(multiple, I can filter the local swamp if I have to!), my family will bug out to my house, they have already brought their trailers loaded with supplies and stored it here. So there will be 20+ guns defending it... I am literally in the middle of nowhere too! No direct road here from a big city...

so then why are you concerned about gold. i too am set up similar to you but id bet my ammo stash and gun stash is even better. unlimited perfect water out of a pitcher pump. i have somewhere between a year to two years of food and if given enough warning have another 500lbs of beef in the freezer i could can along with a couple hundred lbs of pork. quite a bit of chicken too. but even then some day ill run out. especially if i end up having to feed more then the wife and myself. so if i had 5k on the table this morning it would still be better spent on more food then buying gold. bottom line is i wouldnt buy either. a guy has to eventually say enough. how long do you really want to live in a world like that. id rather spend that 5k on having fun today because that cash or gold wont be worth crap and worth even less to me if i die tomorrow.

i shake my head at old men driving rusty old trucks and refusing to spend their money on anything and just dying with it. my parents (at least dad) was just like that. when he died he had a rusty dodge dakota and jump started his old beater 4 wheeler because he was to tight to buy a new battery. along with their savings account we found 3 places in the house he had 5k in cash hid. two safety deposit boxes full of cash. he went without anything and one sister gave her share to her kids that was spent in a month. two sisters went together and bought a winter home in FL. i bought a truck, tractor, side by side. a new sauna for camp and some guns. wife went on a cruise with our granddaughter. you sure as hell wont find a safety deposit box at the bank with cash or gold in it. kids will have to sell my toys.

[rancher1913]

in a real shtf senerio there will be no government. what happens to the value of the gold which basically is backing up currency when the government fails and mobs descend on fort knox and all that gold hits the street? my guess is you wont get a loaf of bread for 5lbs of it. since the government has failed or flat broke the guards will have gone home along with the tax collectors.

there will always be some form of government, even in backhills mexico the cartels are the government. there has been tax collectors since the dawn of time, hence the saying "only 2 Shure things in life, death and taxes" like i said before, i may be wrong but if so all i did was waste a little money, if you dont have any pm's and it turns out i was right than you just lost everything, my pm's are simply an insurance policy.

[MrWolf]

Is "pm" a payment method? Not up on these abbreviations.

[Jeff Michel]

because they realize every crisis we have been through are short term and that we will recover. in a real shtf senerio where weve lost our goverment and people are in survival mode and struggling to find food day to day the average guy will find that money and gold are useless. or if russia and china walk in here they will take it from you and if they find out you hid it from them shoot you in front of the rest of us to set an example. that is for the most part whats being discussed here. not the inflation we are seeing today or a stock market crash we will eventually come out of.

im not into gold and this is a legit question. inflation in the last year has gone up 5% give or take. did gold go up that much or more in that time? some say the real number is closer to 10%. if you want an investment that has always stood the test of time over the long run invest in land or properties. i bought two 40s with a camp in 1989 ror 23k. last summer my brother in law was out at camp and two guys stopped by and offered to buy it for 250k.

if shtf i have 10 acers cleared and cultivated i could grow food on. deer, bear and small game to eat and timber that could be harvested and sold. add to that its out in the sticks and surrounded on three sides by 1000s of acres of state land and other then one camp the nearest home is 18 miles away . now which would serve you better if shtf. that 80 acres or some rocks. youll be begging me to trade come beans and venison for your rocks and it will be a wasted trip. only thig id trade for is diesel fuel and seeds and really wouldnt need the seeds and the only other camp nearby is a buddy that lives there year round and has plow horses and old school equipment.

if you dont have land or worse yet live in a city or suburb that is where the troubles will really be. chances are you dont have food or if you do someone will kill you for it so dump your rocks now and buy a 40 as far from the citys as you can get. best case senerio is nothing happens and you have a piece of land that if you had the sense to buy good land will pace the value of your gold. noe i know there is some here that have a good setup for just in case and want gold too. Me i have 10-15 years left at best. im not sitting around my house admiring some rocks. im going to spend my money having as much fun as i can. lifes to short and you cant take it to heaven. your family can split up your gold and mine can fight over guns and toys and property and if there smart will get together and decide to keep camp the guns and food and ammo so they have somewhere to try to get by.

Thanks Lloyd, you nailed it.

[MUSTANG]

There has to be a balance in life, and planning for the pitfalls life can bring. For me; the "Right Mix is somewhere on the continuum of "Miser" and "Spendthrift".

My philosophy tends towards being a Saver, to cover the unexpected, to be self reliant, and includes some set aside should life be as hard as my Parents experienced in the Depression.

[Ed K]

There is an assumption on this thread that the advocates of precious metals don’t already have land, food, water, firearms, ammunition, power sources, skills, tools etc. and that their survival hopes rely upon metals as a vehicle for obtaining the items on that list when times are tough.

Set that thinking aside for a moment. Remember that those on both sides of this discussion by virtue of being here already have firearms, ammunition, can handload and cast bullets as well. Consider the possibility that both sides in this discussion have all the items in that list. Now add to that that one side has their money in a bank and the other side has their “money”/(store of value) in physical precious metals.

OK now the unthinkable happens. One can only imagine the tragedy “out there“ however the smart people on this forum hunker down, avoiding the panic of the masses while having their immediate needs cared for in advance. After 90 days goes by (maybe more) eventually we all need something from somebody. Will the person with the goods and services needed want to sell their item to someone with silver and gold or would they prefer another persons personal check? Remember: unless you sleep with your life’s savings in your mattress, your money is “in the bank“. Even then, what is a C-note even worth?

[MaryB]

so then why are you concerned about gold. i too am set up similar to you but id bet my ammo stash and gun stash is even better. unlimited perfect water out of a pitcher pump. i have somewhere between a year to two years of food and if given enough warning have another 500lbs of beef in the freezer i could can along with a couple hundred lbs of pork. quite a bit of chicken too. but even then some day ill run out. especially if i end up having to feed more then the wife and myself. so if i had 5k on the table this morning it would still be better spent on more food then buying gold. bottom line is i wouldnt buy either. a guy has to eventually say enough. how long do you really want to live in a world like that. id rather spend that 5k on having fun today because that cash or gold wont be worth crap and worth even less to me if i die tomorrow.

i shake my head at old men driving rusty old trucks and refusing to spend their money on anything and just dying with it. my parents (at least dad) was just like that. when he died he had a rusty dodge dakota and jump started his old beater 4 wheeler because he was to tight to buy a new battery. along with their savings account we found 3 places in the house he had 5k in cash hid. two safety deposit boxes full of cash. he went without anything and one sister gave her share to her kids that was spent in a month. two sisters went together and bought a winter home in FL. i bought a truck, tractor, side by side. a new sauna for camp and some guns. wife went on a cruise with our granddaughter. you sure as hell wont find a safety deposit box at the bank with cash or gold in it. kids will have to sell my toys.

Because after 6 months to a year trade will resume and so will the need for some form of currency...

[MaryB]

Is "pm" a payment method? Not up on these abbreviations.

Precious metals

[Lloyd Smale]

Because after 6 months to a year trade will resume and so will the need for some form of currency...

maybe but im not eating beans and rice today or driving junk or not buying a cool new gun in the gunshop for the last 10 or 15 years i have at most to insure i can stay alive in a ****storm of world 6 more months because my gold buys me more beans and rice just to keep me alive. you said your family have trailers with food. ive got 3 sisters and brothers in law and some other family that will probably end up at camp. i dont know which will kill one of the others permanently in the same building. After the first week id probably be packed up and heading back home before it was me who shot first.

as to currency look at the 1800s. very few people had money. the traded and bartered. i sometimes think that all the worlds problems are due to money and gold. its a way governments insure control over us. mostly people with a silver spoon in their mouths that didnt want to get their hands dirty doing actual work to feed their families when it was eaiser to become a professional liar. anyone who is relying on any kind of currency in a real shtf scenario is rolling a loaded set of dice. im sure people like shummer shiff and nancy have gold and cash but probably not a bag of beans in the giant house. they come knocking on your door are you going to give up your food for their currency when's there's a 50/50 chance that in the few years you have left we wont have recovered enough for it to do you any good.

you wont get a spoon full of rice from me. then if you just have to have that gold and start trading for it you just put up a big sign on the side of the road that mary has food AND gold. watch them come gunning. price is high today. sell it and buy more food or use it to buy something you always wanted. ENJOY the time you have left. just be prepared to find out your 2k an ounce gold is really worth 1500.

this can go round and round forever because by the time we find out we wont be able to come here and say i told you so. so ill say my told you so now and at least for the time being we live in a semi free country where you can make up yor own mine. but ill give everyone a hint. if you are real hungry and come looking for some food for your grandkid from me. pass on anyone telling you their me if they are sporting gold. Im out of this one[smilie=l:

[hoodat]

I keep thinking back to any historical account I've read and learned about. The value of gold and silver has always been -- valuable.

In any populated area, even rural, there is generally a business or simply an individual with resources and connections who will pay and/or trade with and for tools, guns, jewelry, cash, and yes bullion. -- "Bubba's Pawn and Loan" And rest assured, that Bubba will gladly take six ounces of silver for the beat up twelve gauge on his rack. Or how about three ounces of gold for the '98' Chevy that sits out back.

Whether or not silver might become more or less valuable than the existing federal currency, will depend on certain circumstances. And those circumstances aren't unimaginable or unprecedented.

I don't really understand why someone would take an almost hostile attitude about the usefulness of gold and silver. (pm's). jd

[MaryB]

maybe but im not eating beans and rice today or driving junk or not buying a cool new gun in the gunshop for the last 10 or 15 years i have at most to insure i can stay alive in a ****storm of world 6 more months because my gold buys me more beans and rice just to keep me alive. you said your family have trailers with food. ive got 3 sisters and brothers in law and some other family that will probably end up at camp. i dont know which will kill one of the others permanently in the same building. After the first week id probably be packed up and heading back home before it was me who shot first.

as to currency look at the 1800s. very few people had money. the traded and bartered. i sometimes think that all the worlds problems are due to money and gold. its a way governments insure control over us. mostly people with a silver spoon in their mouths that didnt want to get their hands dirty doing actual work to feed their families when it was eaiser to become a professional liar. anyone who is relying on any kind of currency in a real shtf scenario is rolling a loaded set of dice. im sure people like shummer shiff and nancy have gold and cash but probably not a bag of beans in the giant house. they come knocking on your door are you going to give up your food for their currency when's there's a 50/50 chance that in the few years you have left we wont have recovered enough for it to do you any good.

you wont get a spoon full of rice from me. then if you just have to have that gold and start trading for it you just put up a big sign on the side of the road that mary has food AND gold. watch them come gunning. price is high today. sell it and buy more food or use it to buy something you always wanted. ENJOY the time you have left. just be prepared to find out your 2k an ounce gold is really worth 1500.

this can go round and round forever because by the time we find out we wont be able to come here and say i told you so. so ill say my told you so now and at least for the time being we live in a semi free country where you can make up yor own mine. but ill give everyone a hint. if you are real hungry and come looking for some food for your grandkid from me. pass on anyone telling you their me if they are sporting gold. Im out of this one[smilie=l:

I just sold some silver 1oz generic bars at $2 OVER spot price. Premiums are high right now, NOBODY is selling for less than spot. Unless you sell at a stupid pawn shop! Then get reamed, not my issue. I have other avenues to sell thru.

I do not need to stack more food, at overflow already! And my family is close, we get along very well, my older brother is a pastor so he brings value to this little town that lacks a full time pastor. Tools, guns, boats(will be 4 or 5 of them...), ATV's, stored fuel(rotated yearly thru my car)... we do not need more of anything to survive! Have enough guns and ammo to supply a small army!

[snowwolfe]

Gold has had immense value for thousands of years. It is not going away anytime soon.

[hoodat]

Gold has had immense value for thousands of years. It is not going away anytime soon.

Back in 1850, you could take 150 Double Eagles, and buy a pretty darned nice house and property with it with it's value of $3000+/-.

Today, you can take that same weight of gold, and buy a pretty darned nice house with it. -- probably nicer home, with less property.

My example, using a house and property might be skewed, simply because of the incredible increase of real estate value over the years. Also, there is almost no real comparison between the house you had in 1850, and the one we have today. but you get my meaning. jd

[MUSTANG]

I have seen a similar comparison between a Colt 1911 pistol in the 1920's compared to a new Colt 1911 today (1 oz Gold coin) or a middle class Ford vehicle in 1920's compared to Middle Class Ford Vehicle today (20 oz Gold cons). These comparisons I first saw in the 1970's, again in the 1980's, and again in the mid 2000's. Although the actual comparison may be off a bit up or down in any particular period - the comparisons remain comparatively accurate.