Seating Gas Checks

[INGarand]

Using the lee sizing die, sizing and seating gas checks on the 7mm cast bullet. The lee sizing die will not seat the gas checks on the bullet, most of the time they are crooked. The bullet is a gas check design. I have to seat the checks with a mallet before sizing. Any ideas?

[Misery-Whip]

Have to open the check up first. Some use a ball bearing, others make a punch.

[imashooter2]

Annealing can help checks seat easier. I’d try that before I resigned myself to using a tool on every check.

[michael.birdsley]

NOE sells a very good system for starting gas checks. they go on straight. The NOE system doesn’t crimp the checks on though. if i remember correctly it’s rough $35 and now ships fast.


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[BLAHUT]

I use my lube sizer to seat gas checks; on Strate and crimped;

[TurnipEaterDown]

Not every mold is made to take every check. Some mold makers specify checks. There are different thicknesses.
Didn't say what mold & check, so it could be a good thing to verify that the check is correct for mold.

You do say that you had to seat the checks w/ a mallet, and that seems pretty forceful. Usually mine will snap on w/ just a hint of effort (Hornady checks are what I usually use on 30s, 32s (8mm), 35s, 416s, and 44s).
Some of my LEE molds produce bullets that are very hard to get checks on. I always inspect the bullet base condition for flash if I start experiencing it. I think the LEE diameter control is just a little loosey goosey (i.e. SPC is not their strong suit).

(Since the LEE sizer itself is a budget form of the idea of the Noe sizer, the following comments..)

In any event on some bullets where they do snap on squarely I run them through twice with the NOE sizing die -- first time base up (nose punch in the ram adapter) to get the check crimped, then I pan lube and run them through nose first with the flat ram. Doubles the work, but in the instance I am describing I just don't care because 500-700 last me a long time.
On some that are a little tough to seat I have used the LAM II to seat the checks squarely and then run up in the NOE sizer.

(I don't do this w/ everything, just a work around explanation. For instance: Some things I run through the LAM II in one step w/ the GC.)

Probably some wiser fella could give a 'less work' recommendation, but these things have worked for me.

[michael.birdsley]

Not every mold is made to take every check. Some mold makers specify checks. There are different thicknesses.
Didn't say what mold & check, so it could be a good thing to verify that the check is correct for mold.

You do say that you had to seat the checks w/ a mallet, and that seems pretty forceful. Usually mine will snap on w/ just a hint of effort (Hornady checks are what I usually use on 30s, 32s (8mm), 35s, 416s, and 44s).
Some of my LEE molds produce bullets that are very hard to get checks on. I always inspect the bullet base condition for flash if I start experiencing it. I think the LEE diameter control is just a little loosey goosey (i.e. SPC is not their strong suit).

(Since the LEE sizer itself is a budget form of the idea of the Noe sizer, the following comments..)

In any event on some bullets where they do snap on squarely I run them through twice with the NOE sizing die -- first time base up (nose punch in the ram adapter) to get the check crimped, then I pan lube and run them through nose first with the flat ram. Doubles the work, but in the instance I am describing I just don't care because 500-700 last me a long time.
On some that are a little tough to seat I have used the LAM II to seat the checks squarely and then run up in the NOE sizer.

(I don't do this w/ everything, just a work around explanation. For instance: Some things I run through the LAM II in one step w/ the GC.)

Probably some wiser fella could give a 'less work' recommendation, but these things have worked for me.

to expand on this a little. one of my older lee molds i bought second hand. had a little chunk taken out of the mold where the gas check sits. looks like maybe the mold was dropped at one time. so on the bullet it produced quite the burr where the base of the bullet met the gas shank body. some times i have to take a file a clean that up before i can put the gas check on.


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[Wheelguns 1961]

I give another vote for the NOE gas check seater. I have an .30 caliber mp mold, and any gas check is tight on the shank. They are very hard to get right. With the NOE tool, they all seat perfectly. I also have the NOE gas check expander, but it isn’t needed with the seater.

[MarkP]

Try to snap them on by hand before placing on the sizing punch, also NOE makes a chamfer tool for the heals of cast bullets. It breaks the edge and put on a small chamfer. If you have one that it is stuck and crocked grab nose of bullet and push the other end of the bullet or gas check against a hard surface to get it to snap on fully before running into a sizing die.

[Winger Ed.]

Like Mark, I snap them on by hand on the bench top,
then stand them on a real flat surface to be sure the boolit is standing straight up before going into the sizer.

If they are a problem child and won't act right, there is often a little bit of a flashing from the mold seam.
If that won't easily scratch off and it act right, that one goes back in the pot.

[bosterr]

I've used the round end of a ball peen hammer and tap it with a rubber mallet. I had a small number of .475 checks to use up and this is how I made them work.

[INGarand]

Thank everyone for the suggestions, The bullet is the Lee 7mm gas check 130grn bullet. So far not the most accurate bullet in my 7mm rifles. Tapping the checks on with a plastic mallet seems to work. Not quite as nice as the Lyman lube and sizer but will work with the limited amount I load.

[imashooter2]

Annealing is pretty easy… can’t hurt, might help.

[ascast]

What exactly is the process for annealing gas checks? I'd like to know. FWIW - I generally se Hornady gas checks and seater them in the luber/sizer. Never really noticed any issues.

[MarkP]

Thank everyone for the suggestions, The bullet is the Lee 7mm gas check 130grn bullet. So far not the most accurate bullet in my 7mm rifles. Tapping the checks on with a plastic mallet seems to work. Not quite as nice as the Lyman lube and sizer but will work with the limited amount I load.
An inexpensive 7mm mold to try: Mid South Shooters Supply has a 7 mm Soup Can mold. I think you find it under custom molds. It is a LEE mold either 2 or 6 cavity. Or at least they used to sell both. They shoot pretty good in an old 7 x 57 Roller and a 7-08 Rem M Seven.

[imashooter2]

What exactly is the process for annealing gas checks? I'd like to know. FWIW - I generally se Hornady gas checks and seater them in the luber/sizer. Never really noticed any issues.

Same as annealing brass, except you want them completely soft, so you can’t overheat them. Heat them to more than 700° F and then let them air cool. The process can be as simple as putting them in a covered pot on your stove. What I do is put them in a large pipe nipple with a piece of newsprint and the caps screwed on loosely. I throw that in the fireplace and when the fire goes cold I fish it out, and pour out the checks into a mesh basket to let the paper ash separate. The loose caps won’t allow pressure to build and the paper uses up all the oxygen so the checks don’t tarnish.

If you use pipe, buy black pipe, not galvanized. The zinc burning off galvanized pipe gives poisonous fumes.

[PopcornSutton]

Good points made here. I think a check needs to be seated into the check. The base of the bullet is square, the inside corner of the check isn't. Plus, many checks (Hornady) are cupped from the forming process. A tool that will hold the bullet straight then tap the bullet into the check so it's flat is needed. I made my own, but others may do the same thing. Annealing is a good thing too, they need to be dead soft so they don't have any spring back and they form well.

[cuzinbruce]

Lyman made (or makes) a gas check seater for their lube-sizer. You put it on the rod below the die and it limited the travel. You could only seat the gas check.

[Seeker]

I have 1 bullet that I cast and the checks go on them hard. All my sizing dies are Lee push through. With these hard to install checks, I take a bullet punch from another set and put a wrap or two of electrical tape around it and push it up into the sizing die so it doesn't fall back out. I then push the check onto the bullet a good as I can get it by hand and hold it in the press upside down, then run the checked end up against the other bullet punch. This method works well for me.

[cwlongshot]

NOE sells a very good system for starting gas checks. they go on straight. The NOE system doesn’t crimp the checks on though. if i remember correctly it’s rough $35 and now ships fast.


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100% THIS!!

https://youtu.be/84mNH9ekPDs?si=wLSKuWS43cNQA_0n

[hc18flyer]

I watched you video on the NOE seating tool. Am I wrong to seat the check prior to powder coating? I did it for the first time with some 358156 bullets.
hc18flyer

[cwlongshot]

I watched you video on the NOE seating tool. Am I wrong to seat the check prior to powder coating? I did it for the first time with some 358156 bullets.
hc18flyer

No not at all!

It serves same Purpose and strong arguments can be made for merits of applying before.

Bottom line is it serves same Purpose.

[hc18flyer]

CW- Thanks for the info! Just starting to mix pc and gas checks. hc18flyer

[parson48]

I have, for a long time, used a carriage bolt head to flare the checks. Perhaps not the fastest way to do it, but serves me well.

[1903.colt]

Im having poor results with 223 powder coated , I may go to gas checking then powder coat ?

[Firesubie]

I'm looking to order that seating tool but the website is not very clear on what is needed. Is it just that kit or is it caliber specific?

[hpbear101]

As mentioned annealing the copper checks will often help, also maybe a different brand of check (I really like the ones from Sage). I have a simple method that seems to work well for getting them square using the Lee die. I use a Rock Chucker press, set the gas checked bullet on the stem, raise it up to where it meets resistance from the sizer, then I smack the lever fairly hard and fast to push it through. YMMV :)

[Firesubie]

I use the Lee APP for sizing and checking but for bullets that cast really close to the desired size, there's not enough resistance to seat the check before it pushes through the sizer. I had been putting a piece of flat bar across the sizer die and using the sizer ram to seat the die but the only works with bullets that have a flat enough nose to stand on their end. Maybe drilling a hole in my flat bar to use a nose punch to fit a pointed projectile would be useful to gas check those. I did order the NOE kit and the nose punch bushing so we'll see how that works.

[cwlongshot]

I'm looking to order that seating tool but the website is not very clear on what is needed. Is it just that kit or is it caliber specific?
The kit is NOT Caliber specific. You need top Punches that are specific and proper Caliber GC's and then caliber specfic bushines to size bullets, but not the tool.

Its called the NOE Bushing Push Through Size Die

Kit comes with 8 parts

A- Die Body
B1- Spacer sleeve Small
B2- Spacer sleeve Med
B3- Spacer sleeve Large
C- Nose Size Top Punch Holder
D- Base First Top Punch Holder
E- Nose First Bullet Ram
F- Size Bushing

[Firesubie]

I've been using the Lee Breech Lock sizing kit on the APP press and have a bunch of thoae bushings. Will the NOE sizing kit work with that kit or does it replace it? And is it worth switching to the NOE? I see the bushings are cheaper but I already have all the sizes that I currently use.

[Wheelguns 1961]

The gas check seater is a different tool than the sizer kit. Here is one. As mentioned, you need a proper top punch to make it work.

[Firesubie]

I got my NOE gas check seating tool in the mail. It's my first NOE purchase but won't be my last. Very fast shipping and extremely nice machining. Hope to get to use it soon but house painting may take precedence this week. I've put it off as long as the wife would let me. I sure do hate painting.

[braddock]

I experienced this issue with sage checks for non gas checked castboolits. My solution was to turn the boolit around and enter the check in the die first, worked for me. Also evenly flatted slightly pointed round nose boolits that I feel happier with in the magazine of my 94.

[Firesubie]

I was trying to apply the check to a 358156 bullet after I had PC'd it. I even tried to do 2 coats, thinking it would give a little more resistance. I didn't think to try to check the as-cast bullet prior to powder coating like hc18flyer did. Maybe that would have worked. I'll try the NOE seater with my PC'd 358156 bullets since I already have a couple hundred of them coated. Then I'll cast some more and check them before coating and making the gas check shank larger.

I suppose that I could use them PC'd and no check in 38 special loads. I don't know that they won't shoot just fine in my 357 loads with just powder coating and no check in my Rossi 16" since the powder will protect the bullet base somewhat. What do you all think about that idea?

[Firesubie]

And INGarand, I apologize for totally hijacking your thread. I should have started my own thread instead of piggybacking yours.

[INGarand]

Firesubie, absolutely no problem, I enjoyed the information!

[Firesubie]

So, I am liking the NOE gas check seater. It works very well on gas check that are hard to snap on by hand. Since I had a large number of bullets already powder-coated that needed gas checked, I was needing a solution for the ones with a shank too big for the normal copper checks due to the powder coating. I bought some aluminum checks and some plain base checks. I was thinking the thinner material would give more room for a larger shank and that worked for me. And I experimented with the plain base checks on a gas check design bullets and that worked as well but is a total pain to apply as they need to go through sizer first, which is a little harder with the Lee APP since it is upside down from the normal push through Lee dies.

The NOE gas check seater popped those gas checks on easily. It does add another step but I'm not into mass production so I just take my time and pop those suckers right on there. I'm thinking about the NOE sizing kit that CW mentioned because they have a much better selection of sizes than the Lee Breech Lock sizing kit.

[Elpatoloco]

Hmmm, I've never had too much issue. I just set the cast slug half way straight on the check and run it through a push through sizer. The resistance going through the sizer squares up the check and seats them. Most are straight, some are not. I cannot tell any difference on target at 100 yards. I figured the shove on the base when the round goes off takes care of anything misaligned.
These are all revolver rounds though.

[Firesubie]

To be honest, I've never experimented with crooked gas checks versus straight. I just always culled the crooked ones. But it does make sense that 20,000 psi on the base would push that check on a little more if it was not fully seated straight.

[gloob]

When I fired poorly seated gas checks, they did not get pushed on when fired. They got caved in, inside out. Then the caved in gas checks fell off shortly after the bullet left the muzzle.

[PhilC]

NOE sells a very good system for starting gas checks. they go on straight. The NOE system doesn’t crimp the checks on though. if i remember correctly it’s rough $35 and now ships fast.
Yep, add the push thru sizing die and life is simple. ;)

[Firesubie]

I should be set then. I have purchased the NOE gas check seater, the NOE APP adapter and sizing bushings, and the NOE stepped expander plugs for the Lee Universal expanding die, which I already had. This casting business is as big a rabbit hole as the Contender addiction.

[lavenatti]

I just tried out my new NOE gas check seating die tonight. Works great, puts gas checks right on previously powdered coated boolits that I couldn't do anything with before.

[Firesubie]

I'm happy with mine too. I probably wpuld have never bought it if not for the great advice here and cwlongshot's video on it.

[Iowa Fox]

Here's a wild question for you guys. I have a 44 mold that casts bullets with a .419 gas check shank. There is no way I can expand 44 checks to go on. Do you think checks for the 45 acp with a check size of I think about .424 would crimp on acceptably?

[gloob]

Here's a wild question for you guys. I have a 44 mold that casts bullets with a .419 gas check shank. There is no way I can expand 44 checks to go on. Do you think checks for the 45 acp with a check size of I think about .424 would crimp on acceptably?

They might stay on, if you go base first through the sizer. Worth a shot, if you can buy 100 checks. Probably better if you run them though a 45 sizer first, but it's still a long way to go from 452 to 430.

When I put checks on my PB bullets I size the base to just the right size with a custom die. I basically drill and file out the appropriate diameter hole in 1/4" steel plate and screw it onto a base that fits into the ram like a shellholder. The primer arm ejects the bullet, after.
http://i.imgur.com/WlkKOtx.jpg (https://imgur.com/WlkKOtx)
http://i.imgur.com/khgWtX6.jpg (https://imgur.com/khgWtX6)
http://i.imgur.com/49AOwXL.jpg (https://imgur.com/49AOwXL)
http://i.imgur.com/8Ap4TUn.jpg (https://imgur.com/8Ap4TUn)
http://i.imgur.com/YVVgiY2.jpg (https://imgur.com/YVVgiY2)

Adjustable top punch with random die body and some bits and bobs.
http://i.imgur.com/XiRwmtX.jpg (https://imgur.com/XiRwmtX)
Bonus. When I see the phillips screwdriver mark on the tip of the boolit, I know it is gas checked.

If you have a shellholder to spare and some grinders and sanders, you could easily solder a plate with a hole in it to the shellholder base. That would only do one size, of course.

The most I've had to size down a shank/base is around 12 thous smaller. 419 to 402 is 17. Might be a little more trouble.

You could also see if Sage will make some thinner 44 checks for you to try.
430-402 is 28. Divided by 2 leaves 14 thous. I'm gonna guess a normal 44 gas check is 17 thous thick, leaving 3 thous of crush fit. 430-419 is 11... I think an 8 thous check would be the right thickness, if it fits over the shank. Sage seems to have a supply of 10-11 thous lithography plate. That might have a chance to fit on there with enough force, like using an NOE seater. Thinner checks won't absorb as much heat, but fit and consistency matters, too. To get a normal 44 check die to form thinner checks cleanly and opening the interior/shank part out fully only requires turning a new button. So maybe a couple hours of machining and fiddling and testing. If the demand were there, he might do it.

[MarkinMD]

I have been experimenting with a AR platform 350 legend. I have a 25 yard range adjacent to my loading shop. I just open a window and I have a bench rest attached to the inside base of the window. Most of my experimentation is done at 25 yards because my gun club with its 100, 200 and 300 yard ranges is 30 miles away. The gun will give touching groups with jacketed bullets but I have yet to achieve that with cast boolits. I have been powder coating my cast boolits. I am working with a Lee 358-200 Round Nose Flat Point gas checked mold. Since Hornady is so proud of their gas checks and prices them accordingly, I have just acquired a Pat Marlins 35 cal gas check maker. It arrived in my mail box a week after I placed the order. I was quite surprised and pleased at the speed. My powder coat process involves a drilled brass plate that I cover with aluminum foil and push the gas check shank through the foil into the drilled holes. I use an Eastwood gun to apply the powder coat. I then move the plate into the oven and cure the powder coat. The foil is discarded after each use. This leaves me with powder coated boolits with bare gas check shanks. Since I am sizing the boolit to .356 to shoot in the 350 legend, the Lee push through sizer fights me and I found the the new Aluminum gas checks deform and I had to go back to my Lyman #45 Lube/Sizer. I wanted to make sure that the gas checks were fully seated before sizing. I cut a small piece of 1/8 brass plate and set it over the sizing die. The nose punch matches the Boolit. I start the gas check as best I can and then set the boolit on the plate and bring the nose punch down. The gas check is pushed all the way on to the boolit. Sometimes I need to rotate the boolit and push again. I can then remove the plate and size the boolit and check. Next I will see if I can get the accuracy I am looking for. With Hornady checks, 200 gr PC boolits, 21.5 grains of 11FS and CCI 450 primers I have achieved 1900 FPS and groups under one inch at 25 yards. I will see how my new Aluminum gas checks stack up against the Hornady checks. The point of this rambling dissertation is that I was able to make a gas check seater by simply adding a metal plate to the Lubrisizer that I already have.

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve noticed with my Lee molds that it’s pretty hard to get an even seat with the horn gas check many times. I blame it on the cheap molds. My group buy molds zero issues. I normally just take a gas check and try and pop it on which I normally can’t. I’ll try and get it on as evenly as possible and tap the boolit base on the table. I haven’t done this for a while, but my fingers share wear out quick doing it that way. I’ve pretty much sold off most of my gas check Lee molds so I don’t have to deal with them anymore. Think I still have 2 .430 molds. I just deal with it. The lee .452 300 grain FN and .430 310 grain molds are a bear to get GCs on. Also the .358 200 grain mold. I only have the .430 310 and lee 240 grain .430 HP GC molds left. All the rest of my lee molds are non GC. My MP and Noe molds with GCs go on easy. I have annealed my GCs and it makes no difference in going on any easier other than they don’t look pretty after heating.