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BT Sniper
02-14-2009, 04:25 AM
Had a good night in the shop. I love this hobby, always trying out new ideas and designs. I have been thinking about this one for a long time. I have a semi auto 44 AMP pistol and have always had best results with the Hornady xtp bullet for feeding, accuracy and cool looks. So ofcourse since I have got in to this hobby I have been striving to copy the XTP bullet. Well I had a break through tonight. A few more tweeks and a new hollow point punch and I will be in production.

For those of you that know me I am no machinist and have had no training. Just a garage, a dremel tool, a grinder and a drill press. But with alot of trial and error, a few trips to the hardware store for some cheep bolts to make the tools from, and some time I was able to make these.

What a great hobby:drinks: Not sure I'll ever come up witha final design as I'm always thinking of a better one.

The day you stop learning is the day you die.

Good Shooting,

Brian

BT Sniper
02-14-2009, 05:00 AM
Next projects are bonded core (all ready successfull) and polymer tip (in the mail) as well as same bullet in 40 cal from 9MMs, 41 and 45 cal.

I'm going to track down a 444 Marlin and push the fps, see what these bullets can do.

The weight came out at 253 grains and is next to a 240 XTP.

The tip is a bit flat because my holow point punch is to big so formed it up with the flat point and bored out the hollow point for the pics.

More later,

Brian

Southern Son
02-14-2009, 07:42 AM
Brian, that is brilliant, you will have to post you results when you shoot them. How accurate and what they do when they hit stuff. I am thinking of getting a 44 mag carbine, 92 Rossi or similar, and I reckon those boolits would be great on pigs or goats, if they hold together. What is the bonded core idea?

acemedic13
02-14-2009, 09:16 AM
Those things are awesome bro. I cant wait to sink one in a hog. I will let you know what happens with the ones you are sending. I will give you the full rundown on how they were loaded, gun used....All that stuff. I will do all I can to recover the rounds from the animal. Looks like you are about to start your own line of bullets. Nice work...AGAIN!

MIBULLETS
02-14-2009, 08:11 PM
BT Sniper, awesome! I have been looking for a way to do this with my 35 cal rifle bullets. Can you describe your process for creating the notches in the jacket?

Dan

BT Sniper
02-15-2009, 04:29 AM
Dan

How have you been? Never did coment on you 35 cal bullets from the 30 Carbine brass they look good. Are these the jackets you want to notch? Well heck doesn't matter lets notch them all:-D

OK guys, hope I'm not giving away valuable secerets here but figure we can all learn from each other. So the seceret to notch jackets I have found was to take a expander die (mine happened to be a redding 40 S&W) find a bolt to match the treads (1/2 fine thread worked for me) turn down the head of the bolt as well as the entire untreaded portion as close a fit as possible to inside dia of die. As long as you didn't cut the top of the bolt the 6 tic marks will still be there. This is your pattern for the teeth of the punch. Draw lines connecting the tics. This will represent the sharp cutting surface. Screw on a nut to fit the threads and grip the bolt in a vise on this nut. Gradually start grinding away with the small cut off wheels from a dremel tool. Try to hold dremel at same angle and just rotate the bolt six times for the left side of the teeth, then move over and do the same again for the right side of the teeth. Then again and again and again........ Slowly untill complete.

First one (pictured) took me 3 hours. I heat treated it and final sharpen with dremel and 320 grit sanding disk making sure to sand away from the edge.

Helpfull hints:

This works for me in a standard press with a shell holder to hold my 429-40S&W bullets. I notched the jacket after the core was seated. I had about 3/8 inch jacket extending above top of core. This amount of exposed jacket seemed to work the best so far. Trying to notch the jacket without the core didn't work for me. I was able to notch bullets made without a rim using the same punch from the point forming. May have to pull them out (easy). Will also work with factory bullets to put a grove in the lead to aid expansion. Same for loaded ammo (CAUTION of course).

I have compressed my jacket to a point that is flush with top of core and then notched core and jacket at same time. Point forming brought these 6 petels back together. Would imagine it is similar to Barnes X technique. Will have to work with design of tool because testing the bullet revealed that the expansion did follow these notched groves but the lead petels broke off (like Barnes X). Could just be my ww cores are to hard. Will work on it.

I got scared that the sharp tips were scratching the seating die so I removed a slight amount to avoid this potential problem. Stop Now! Wish I haden't because had I left it alone as a perfect fit in the die the bullet could have went strait from seating the core to notch it. Because I made the teeth slightly smaller in dia the jacket will just fit between the teeth and edge of die not cutting it. So I have to run it through the point form die just allitle first. An extra step but the results were worth it.

I'm thinking if we made this big enough to start with we may be able to notch every smaller size jacket with the same tool.:-D That remindes me, as you notch deeper into the jacket it expands the petels out. Go to far and you will not be able to get bullet into point die. Maybe make the teeth thinner and longer will allow a deeper grove befor this happens.

Well if you have taken he time to read and understand this book you probably have the time to make one of these. I mentioned the limited tools I have and it cetainly didn't cost anything ($1.50 bolt) just time.

So good luck guys, I'll be perfecting this design untill I get a good example of a perfect mushroom to show you.

Just remembered a thought. We should be able to notch the jacket and seat the core in the same step.:mrgreen: I'm on it.

Good shooting,

Brian

acemedic13
02-15-2009, 07:28 AM
Wow.....

kawalekm
02-15-2009, 12:38 PM
I feel so sorry for the folks at Speer, Hornady, and Sierra. Who will want to buy from them any more?

BT Sniper
02-15-2009, 02:24 PM
Southern Son,

I was able to bound the jacket to the core with the 40S&W jacket. I used a Qtip dipped in some liquid flux. I would swab the inside of the jacket before seating the core then heat eveything up till the lead melts. When the lead dries it will concave forming a crater as discribed on Corbin's web sight. A little flux was better than alot and one Qtip could probably handle 100 or more jackets. I mix about a foot of solder in the melted wheel weights to add tin. Not actually sure how or why it bounds but it seems to work.

Now the hard part. When using a cartridge case for a jacket you will end up with traped air in the primmer pocket. You should be able to guess what happens when you heat traped gases. The cases poped like popcorn. Some times with force so use caution. Still experimenting will figure it out soon. The idea would be to use a core that is slightly smaller then the inside dia of the case then it may work. Using deprimed brass would solve the trapped air problem but then the melted lead would drain out. So alittle more experimenting and I'll have it figured out.
Any Ideas?

Good shooting,

Brian

BT Sniper
02-15-2009, 02:37 PM
Michael, glad I got some pics up for you guys. It is snowing here again in Oregon. So testing bullets has been alittle slow. So far all the bullets I have made have been very accurate in my gun. Groups have been as small or smaller than the Hornady XTPs. 3/4 in. groups all day at 10 yrds is the norm. Will start testing at longer distance to give you guys a better idea. I think these will be very good bullets fired from any gun but should really shine when shot at a higher velocity from a rifle. The hard core seems to hold together well. Got some soft lead will try to compare.

More latter

MIBULLETS
02-15-2009, 03:26 PM
Brian, Yes I have not responded back about my 30 Carbine bullets since I wasn't able to shoot them. Yesterday I got out to the range though. I was pretty pleased. I shot them out of my 358 Winchester at 100 yds. 5 shots went into about a 2" group not too bad for the first light load. Now I need to start working up the load to see if I can get it better.

Nice job on the punch. I was thinking of trying to notch my 35 cal jackets I make from copper tubing, so I would probably need to make an external punch to fit my core seating die. I don't have a case rim to hold on to. These jackets are around .030" thick so they may be harder to notch, won't know til I try. I may need to buy the neighbor a few beers, he has a lathe and has made me a few core seating punches in the past. Thanks for sharing

BT Sniper
02-15-2009, 04:18 PM
Sorry Dan I ment that I had not comtented on your bullets. Glad to here they shot good.

Should be able to notch the copper, don't think you need a rim it only helps pull the jacket back out. Could drill a hole threw center of tool to allow to push out from top or in my case the jacket doesn't need to be fully extended into the die to notch the jacket. I was able to easily pull the jacket out with fingers since it extended out bottom of die. It can be done, just fiddle with it long enough you'll find a way.

BT Sniper
02-16-2009, 04:33 AM
posted test results under the hollow point thread

Southern Son
02-16-2009, 06:57 AM
Brian,
I was thinking about maybe swaging 45ACP to use as a light hunting boolit in my 458WinMag. I tried the "pour the molten metal into the case" idea, but I only had cases with live primers. So, not being a complete fool, I decaped the case and had the lead run out the primer pocket. I tried sitting the case on a steel plate, that stopped the lead running out, but then the primer pocket was only partially filled with lead (the lead cooled to quickly). I thought that the finished product would vary too much in weight. At that point I decided that I dont have any gear to swage to the finished product and threw in the towel. I was thinking that using fired large pistol primers put back into the case upside down might reduce the amount of air in there. But I reckon it would be a royal PITA to put a fired primer cup back into the pocket, upside down, without some kind of rod or ram to hold the primer cup, and I dont own a lathe (one day I will, but I need to get adopted buy someone who is really rich and has really low standards).

EMC45
02-16-2009, 09:19 AM
Awesome work!! Drill press, Dremmel and files huh? Couldn't tell. You're bullets look like they were turned out at a machine shop. OUTSTANDING WORK!!!!! That larger hollow point is huge! Shoot some more with the larger hollow cavity and please keep us updated! I am sure I am not the only one who is getting inspired right now.

BT Sniper
02-16-2009, 01:51 PM
Still thinking...... the problem I had trying to notch the thin brass case with no core was that it would wrinkle and fold in on its self (to week). I think that a stiffer, thicker copper tube might just work perfect.

Were do we get copper tubing cheep. I looked at it at the hardware store and seems like it cost to much. About 3/4" per bullet around 16 per foot. Maybe if I could find it less then a dollor a foot would be $10 per 160 jackets. Might be interested.

I don't think the strength of the cutter or the necessary force would be a problem against the copper tube.

mold maker
02-16-2009, 07:32 PM
I bought one years ago when they first came out. Then I bought them for gifts to my technical minded friends. They all still work and are as accurate as any other.
Their cheap enough that I have one on stand by for the occasion that I get clumsy, and it doesn't stand up to the bounce test.
Some of Harbor freight stuff is junk, but then at the price even the junk is cheap. YOU DON'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, but in this case you sure get your moneys worth.

BT Sniper
02-16-2009, 07:51 PM
????

Not sure what you are talking about Mold Maker. Posible post in wrong place or did you buy somthing to notch jackets with?

NSP64
02-16-2009, 08:07 PM
LOL I was wondering what moldmaker was talking about. I thought I had missed something.

MIBULLETS
02-16-2009, 10:27 PM
I get my copper tubing at a piping supply place in town where I live. I think I paid about $1.20 a foot for type L tubing last summer, but the prices are way down on copper right now. Good time to buy.

BT Sniper
02-18-2009, 04:32 AM
Southern son,

Had somwhat the same thought with the primer pocket and spent primers. My thinking was to deprime the case, remove the anvil (? corect term ?) and reseat just the cup of the primer. May be able to do it in such a way as to alow air to escape but no lead. If I could get the lead to fill the primer pocket it would create a sort of "core lock" to the jacket. May have to open up the flash hole, being that small I have seen the lead core break away from the lead in the primer pocket.

Have done alot of testing latly and have fond that a notch as small as being barly visible is suficant to start the jacket break up in 6 uniform petals.

Posted results under the "hollow point" thread.

hi-tek tm man
04-19-2009, 09:39 AM
Southern Son,

I was able to bound the jacket to the core with the 40S&W jacket. I used a Qtip dipped in some liquid flux. I would swab the inside of the jacket before seating the core then heat eveything up till the lead melts. When the lead dries it will concave forming a crater as discribed on Corbin's web sight. A little flux was better than alot and one Qtip could probably handle 100 or more jackets. I mix about a foot of solder in the melted wheel weights to add tin. Not actually sure how or why it bounds but it seems to work.

Now the hard part. traped air in the primmer pocket. You should be able to guess what happensWhen using a cartridge case for a jacket you will end up with when you heat traped gases. The cases poped like popcorn. Some times with force so use caution. Still experimenting will figure it out soon. The idea would be to use a core that is slightly smaller then the inside dia of the case then it may work. Using deprimed brass would solve the trapped air problem but then the melted lead would drain out. So alittle more experimenting and I'll have it figured out.
Any Ideas?

Good shooting,

Brian

you can use soda can's and make like a gas check in the bottom of the case .

7of7
04-19-2009, 01:32 PM
I plan to score the inside of the jacket by using a punch that will almost fit the inside of the jacket. the only issue would be removing the jacket from the scoring punch, however, if an additional punch was used to remove the jacket, that fit on the top of the punch, and extended completely through the punch, you could remove the jacket pretty easily. The scores would be on the inside, and should allow for a good mushrooming. Combined with bonding the core, it seems like it would stay together fairly well if impacting a bone or something....

Maximilian225
04-19-2009, 05:45 PM
Southern son,

Had somwhat the same thought with the primer pocket and spent primers. My thinking was to deprime the case, remove the anvil (? corect term ?) and reseat just the cup of the primer. May be able to do it in such a way as to alow air to escape but no lead. If I could get the lead to fill the primer pocket it would create a sort of "core lock" to the jacket. May have to open up the flash hole, being that small I have seen the lead core break away from the lead in the primer pocket.

Have done alot of testing latly and have fond that a notch as small as being barly visible is suficant to start the jacket break up in 6 uniform petals.

Posted results under the "hollow point" thread.

Deprime the case, leave the anvil in for now, and reprime with the spent primer upside down (Anvil Visible). Way I prime to load cases with water to check volume of brass. Should get your air pocket to nothing. Anvil allows you to put the primer back in with regular priming methods

turbo1889
05-01-2009, 12:49 AM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11443

Noticed You made that out of a Grade-8 bolt and you state that you heat treated your part after completion. Could you get a little more specific about your heat treat process namely heat source, how hot you heated it up too, and quench medium (water, oil, antifreeze, etc). I have also made stuff out of Grade-5 and Grade-8 bolts mainly 7/8x14 fine thread stock to fit reloading press threads and simple heat treating abilities would be nice to learn.

BT Sniper
05-05-2009, 02:32 PM
As far as heat treating I am not sure I have had any success but there is good info on the net and all I did, if it did anything at all, was to heat the punch while it was turning in the drill press with 2 propane tourches till it got as hot as possible. Never quite got the glowing red but almost the cherry red. With it still spinning in the press I lowered it into used motor oil. It may have worked alittle as I'm just notching brass and probably didn't need to heat treat it at all. For heat treating large 7/8th size stuff it will take more heat I would guess. I have heard it costs more to ship your iteams then it does to have things professionaly heat treated. This is the route I think I will take with large important dies and such.

Not really much help but maybe someone will chime in on heat treating techniques.

Good shooting