How does a lube sizer work ?

[Wolfdog91]

Like anyone have a detailed explanation of how these things work past you push a bullet in and it sizes and lubes it ? A video preferably ( I'm a visual learner). Actually if someone has a picture of a lube sizer die completely disassembled or a cut away that would be great. Got some stuff in my head I'm thinking on and need to see the inner working of one of these things to see if my design would work.
I have two lube sizers at home but honestly never messed with them for a few reasons

[Winger Ed.]

Do a quickie search for 'Lyman sizer die', then click images.
There's a bunch of 'em.

Basically, if you have say--- a new boolit that comes out of the mold at .455 inches in diameter.
But it needs to be say,,, .452 inches to work right in your 1911.

Press it down in the .452 sizer, when it bottoms out, turn the handle on the lube chamber.
It squeezes lube around the die, and into the lube rings on the boolit through the holes in the side of the die.

There is a pin in the sizer die that follows the boolit down, keeps lube from squirting out under the boolit,
and lets the linkage in the sizer press push the boolit back up.

That's pretty much all there is to it.

The Lee system is a little different, but search 'Lee push through sizer' and click 'images'.
I works about the same way, just on your press, but doesn't lube the boolit as it goes through it.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkjx3UYZR-A&t=327s

[reddog81]

The concept requires you push the bullet into a sizing die and then the lube (under a little pressure) flows into the lube groove and then you eject the bullet back out the top. It's a very easy process if you have the right equipment.

I can't imagine trying to design something comparable. If the tolerances aren't exact the lube will flow everywhere. Most lubes have to be heated up a bit to flow. However if you overheat, the lube will want to flow everywhere. The sizing dies have little holes in the sides so that lube can flow from the Lubesizer, through the sizing dies into the bullet lube grooves. All these have to be fit perfectly otherwise it's a big mess.

I have bought 2 complete setups for around $100 which included sizing dies and top punches. The top punches are used to push the bullet into the Lubesizer with the correct nose profile. Try to use a SWC profile on a RN bullets and you'll end up with a ring on the bullet nose.

[Baltimoreed]

I bought a used Lyman unit [orange] and was given the second [needed serious cleaning]. I swapped parts to get the same handle style on both. One stays set up for 452 while the other gets swapped around between 30 cal and 6.5. Mounted them on an aluminum plate on an oak board to transfer the heat from the heater. They take a little bit of adjustment to get the bullet in the right spot. Too much pressure will cause the lube to go where you don’t want it. Just a quarter turn on the ratchet per bullet, if the grooves aren’t full repeat.

[Wolfdog91]

Ok well definitely less complicated then I thought, ok one more question would one of these HAVE to be the length they are to fit in an unmodified lube sizer . Like could something an extra once or so work or do they have to be the length they are ? Thanks

[Winger Ed.]

What brand of sizer do you have?
And which sort of dies are you wanting to use in it?

[Wolfdog91]

What brand of sizer do you have?
And which sort of dies are you wanting to use in it?

Got two Lyman..450's I think of I remember right , but looking at building,or having something built. Honestly if it works it could REALLY change a thing or two

[Winger Ed.]

Any of the Lyman or RCBS dies & top punches will work in it.
I've got a RCBS sizer and made a SAECO die fit too with a little grinding on the top where its retained in the press.

If I already had two sizers that are among the favorites in the industry---
(I'm all about experimenting and trying to improve things. However: )
I'd be happy with those, and use them rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.

[Wolfdog91]

Any of the Lyman or RCBS dies & top punches will work in it.
I've got a RCBS sizer and made a SAECO die fit too with a little grinding on the top where its retained in the press.

If I already had two sizers that are among the favorites in the industry---
(I'm all about experimenting and trying to improve things. However: )
I'd be happy with those, and use them rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.

Well there something missing with current lube size dies that again, would make them much better, by any time I've spoken about it folks get ... defensive.
Anyhow , would you have to have a die that's the exact same length as the current ones to fit or could one that's longer fit without modifications to the press ?

[35 Rem]

The dies have to be the same length they are because it has to seal on top and bottom or lube will squirt out. I'm sure there is some small tolerance that the length can vary but I doubt it's much at all. Maybe 1 or 2 turns of the large top nut that holds the die in?

[Winger Ed.]

Without going out and looking,,, I'm not sure if the space inside the sizer press bottoms out or not.

But if your die is too long to fit, it's not too hard to shorten them.
When fitting the die in, be sure the linkages under the die that push the boolit out on the upstroke
aren't set too high for it to go down properly.

[Shopdog]

As the H hole diameter increases...

The room,or ID of the retaining collar starts to get close. So,yes... up to a certain H die diameter the die itself can extend upwards a ways.

One area you need to concern with is top punch to the top of the H die. They can be machined to engage each other... I've made some that way. Another area is how much leverage a 450 will take.... high starting loads is mainly what kills them. It's the H die leade in that's paramount to getting some of the longer style rifle bullets started straight. Will leave it there. Good luck with your project.

[bruce381]

I would setup your lyman sizer. Give it a try it will answer your question im sure and maybe make new question but it works no need to over think it.
blow your mind google a star sizer it is a push through sizer goers real fast

[Oldfeller]

There is a substantial learning curve on lubricized lead bullets.

You will wind up lapping your molds to get them large enough and round to fit your throats/chambers (whichever). You will do much work to get full velocity and accuracy.

You will likely also lap out your expensive lubriciser dies to increase the final bullet size some. They are hardened steel and are tough to lap out .......

Much less time spent on a powder coating system will yield better results. If you need bigger, just powder coat them again. Lap a LEE push through to the exact size you need and apply a gas check if you need the extra support.

Powder coat costs A WHOLE LOT LESS to add a caliber later on.

[mehavey]

Got two Lyman..450's I think . . .
. . would one of these HAVE to be the length they are to fit in an unmodified lube sizer
Well there something missing with current lube size dies.
1. Stick with Lyman and RCBS H dies. They both fit your Lyman 450s
2. What appears to be missing ?

FWIW: If you want/need H-Die diameters not routinely "issued" by Lyman/RCBS, go to
Track of the Wolf (https://www.trackofthewolf.com/) or BuffaloArms (https://www.buffaloarms.com/) and they'll likely have them already available.

[FISH4BUGS]

I find it interesting that no one has discussed Star sizers and how they automatically squirt the lube into the groove(s) via a cam action.

[dverna]

If you have an idea to make something better, find someone who knows something and who you trust and talk it out. There are folks here that can help.

The issue is that I cannot determine what you are trying to do so it is difficult to offer any suggestions/cautions.

If you cannot or will not identify what you are attempting to improve on an open forum, I see two options. If you have local resources, they are the best. I find face to face a better and easier way to "brainstorm". If that is not the case, reach out to someone here or another forum who you trust via PM or email.

If it was me, I would reach out to Mr. Morris who contributes to this forum. He has "been around the block", has years of fabricating/machine experience and has made some amazing stuff.

But before you do that, at least use one of the 450's you have. How can you assume they are lacking if you have never used them? Lube at least 2000 bullets before going down a rabbit hole. It will help you determine what needs to be improved.

Lastly, ignore people like me who have a little bit of knowledge but lots of opinions...LOL. If Edison had listened to people, he would not have invented the light bulb. But like Edison, you made need more than one kick at the cat to get'r done. Expect some trial and error.

[Thumbcocker]

I would think Star units could accommodate a longer die if needed. I have a Lyman and a Star sizer. The Star is light years ahead of the Lyman.

[charlie b]

As mentioned you cannot use a longer die with a stock RCBS or Lyman press. The retaining "screw" needs to push it firmly against the internal base to seal the lube chamber.

But...if you used a step die with a shoulder for the retaining 'screw' the rest of the body could be longer.

The limit would be the stroke on the sizer and the length of the bullet.

Without knowing why you want to do this makes it difficult to offer suggestions.

FYI, the Star size is a little different and might suit your needs better.

[Wolfdog91]

If you have an idea to make something better, find someone who knows something and who you trust and talk it out. There are folks here that can help.

The issue is that I cannot determine what you are trying to do so it is difficult to offer any suggestions/cautions.

If you cannot or will not identify what you are attempting to improve on an open forum, I see two options. If you have local resources, they are the best. I find face to face a better and easier way to "brainstorm". If that is not the case, reach out to someone here or another forum who you trust via PM or email.

If it was me, I would reach out to Mr. Morris who contributes to this forum. He has "been around the block", has years of fabricating/machine experience and has made some amazing stuff.

But before you do that, at least use one of the 450's you have. How can you assume they are lacking if you have never used them? Lube at least 2000 bullets before going down a rabbit hole. It will help you determine what needs to be improved.

Lastly, ignore people like me who have a little bit of knowledge but lots of opinions...LOL. If Edison had listened to people, he would not have invented the light bulb. But like Edison, you made need more than one kick at the cat to get'r done. Expect some trial and error.

Multi caliber luber sister die that work off of bushings , or collets... what you call it. Don't wanna say what I was exactly because last time I did it got **** down and didn't get the answers I wanted.
Went about it this way and got a lot more stuff answered and honestly having a hard time seeing how it wouldn't work with the idea I got...to a degree

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Wolf, Clean the dust off of one of your 450's and mount it to the bench. Spending a few hours with it, and you'll be a lube-sizer expert.
.
Regarding bushings for multi-caliber. I surely think it's possible, the biggest pitfall will be aligning lube ports. The older Lyman 45 would be more conducive to a longer die body, if you feel that's needed for your idea.

[Wolfdog91]

Wolf, Clean the dust off of one of your 450's and mount it to the bench. Spending a few hours with it, and you'll be a lube-sizer expert.
.
Regarding bushings for multi-caliber. I surely think it's possible, the biggest pitfall will be aligning lube ports. The older Lyman 45 would be more conducive to a longer die body, if you feel that's needed for your idea.

Well first I gotta find the sizing dies I want which hant been easy. .227.226 some I'd ball .30cals..... Also I got another 17 days till I'm back at the house to think. Then lube and the little push top things, and the fact I don't load 100's at a time, just not what I do most of the time .
Honestly the complete irritation I've had making lists hunting and trying to price all the stuff I need to start lube sizing is the reason this idea is in my head so much

[charlie b]

I understand the frustration. These days the supply of stuff is not consistent. Sometimes need to search a lot for something we used to order any day of the week. Dies are the tough one, especially if you need an 'odd' size. Nose punches can be found from the mold makers. These can also be modified to a custom fit with a bit of JBWeld. Or, buy one that is close and then use a few bullets to lap out the shape. NOE and Accurate sell nose punches. There is a chart somewhere that shows which punches fit Lee bullets.

For bushings your problem will be reaming/honing the lube section of the die bushing. Needs to be parallel for at least the length of your lube grooves. Then the 'body punch' needs to be fitted to a close tolerance. By the time you get done with all that you'd have more into it than just buying a die. Unless you have a nice lathe, reamers and hones...and know how to use them :)

[Winger Ed.]

Even if you have an extensive home machine shop, making your own sizer dies is sort of like getting a fast food hamburger:

Sure, you could make one at home, but for only a couple bucks- you get instant gratification and don't have to clean up later.

[gwpercle]

Someone who might have an idea as to the feasibility of this project ... I mean why not a multi - caliber bushing / lube sizer die ... You could have the Bushings in the small increments you want ... Like .355" - .356" - .357" - .358" - .359" - .360"...
One sizer die with the 6 bushings ...what a great idea ...I wish I had a set like this !

I'm thinking Al "Swede" Nelson , of NOE Bullet Moulds might have some insight...
They make several different sizers and bushings and ... if anyone had any insight on wether this idea would work ...I would think Al Nelson would be the man to talk to .

I can't believe someone thought this idea wouldn't fly ... with all the bushing sizing dies for cases ... why not a bushing sizing die for boolits !
Gary

[M-Tecs]

Someone who might have an idea as to the feasibility of this project ... I mean why not a multi - caliber bushing / lube sizer die ... You could have the Bushings in the small increments you want ... Like .355" - .356" - .357" - .358" - .359" - .360"...
One sizer die with the 6 bushings / collets ...what a great idea ...I wish I had a set like this !

I'm thinking Al "Swede" Nelson , of NOE Bullet Moulds might have some insight...
They make several different sizers and bushings and collets ... if anyone had any insight on wether this idea would work ...I would think Al Nelson would be the man to talk to .

I can't believe someone thought this idea wouldn't fly ... with all the collet sizing dies for cases ... why not a collet sizing die for boolits !
Gary

Collets would be problematic due to the slotting required for a collet to expand or collapse.

Interchangeable bushings are very doable. The question is can it be done cost effectively? verse the standard dies. Reality is the current die system is an interchangeable bushing already.

[35 Rem]

It seems to me that if you made bushings that could be inserted in an outer shell that would interface with the existing Lube Sizer, you are still going to spend a large portion of the cost of the existing dies. A bushing would need to have the precision hole and precision rod insert. Then you have to come up with some wort of fastener to keep the bushing from lifting up out of the out shell, which the existing nut does with the existing dies. I don't see it being cost effective. Buy up the custom sizes that you need over time and keep life simple. Also a lot of what you may read here presented as Gospel isn't always true. For example, using the old standard of sizing cast bullets .001 over nominal groove size works most of the time. Give that a try before you exert too much effort customizing. I seem to recall that you got several sizer dies included with the deal you got on the 2 Lyman Lube Sizers? Use those where they are supposed to work and see the results. You may not need a custom diameter in some cases.

[gwpercle]

Collets would be problematic due to the slotting required for a collet to expand or collapse.

Interchangeable bushings are very doable. The question is can it be done cost effectively? verse the standard dies. Reality is the current die system is an interchangeable bushing already.

I used the word "Collet" mistakenly ... what I really meant was "bushings" ... I revised my post .
And your question is also my question ... can it be done cost effectively ?
the only person I know who makes sizers and other things is Al Nelson of NOE Bullet Moulds ... He might have an idea on , can it be done and how much would it cost . It would probably be expensive but so are bottle necked rifle carbide sizing dies ...they make and sell those !

I would have loved to have one boolit sizing die with a set of 5 or 6 different bushings in .001" increments .
Beats having the 5 or 6 dies I have now .
I think it can be done ... it's the "How Much" I have no clue on .
Gary

[M-Tecs]

I used the word "Collet" mistakenly ... what I really meant was "bushings" ... I revised my post .
And your question is also my question ... can it be done cost effectively ?
the only person I know who makes sizers and other things is Al Nelson of NOE Bullet Moulds ... He might have an idea on , can it be done and how much would it cost . It would probably be expensive but so are bottle necked rifle carbide sizing dies ...they make and sell those !

I would have loved to have one boolit sizing die with a set of 5 or 6 different bushings in .001" increments .
Beats having the 5 or 6 dies I have now .
I think it can be done ... it's the "How Much" I have no clue on .
Gary

Carbide rifle bottle neck dies have a very specific application and market. That is for users that are high volume loaders that could wear out a steel die in a couple of weeks.

A bushing style H&I die doesn't really bring much, if any, added value to the current system. I do hope Wolfdog91 does come up with a workable solution but he is facing significant challenges.

First is cost effectiveness. Without seeing a design, it is difficult to quote a job like this. Quoting machining costs are mostly based on volume, machining time, tooling costs and material costs. H&I dies are a very simple design and easy to quote.

Volume would be very low so that will increase costs.

Machining time without a solid design is problematic. What we do know is it would require a die that fits into the space of a norm H&I plus additional bushings that fit into a die with an outside diameter of .700". In essences this die would function the same as the casting on the Lyman sizers while adding significant challenges. Next you would need a smaller version of the standard H&I die with a method to hold it in and toleranced to prevent lube leakage. Same of the ejection pin. How much clearance it can have is somewhat dependent of the lube being used but an ejector pin will leak if used in a die that is .002" larger so chances are you will need one per bushing size same as the current system. Then you need a method to remove the bushing?

Using .460" diameter sizer you only have .120" wall thickness on a standard H&I. The bushing would have to be indexed to the lube holes and due to limited thickness O-rings would not be very workable so tolerances would have to be tight enough to prevent leakage. Can it be do? Yes, but when it's all said and done it's going to be more costly and not nearly as robust as the current designs.

The list goes on and on about additional challenges with no real added value?

The added complexity is a huge challenge to overcome while remaining cost effective and functional. The more I think about it the less feasible it looks.

That being said, I am more than willing to help Wolfdog91 with a design.

[charlie b]

The H&I die design is a "bushing" design. Just swap the 'bushing' for a new size when you need it.

Any decent machinist can make whatever size you want, or, get a smaller size and have it reamed and honed to the dia you want. A new bottom punch would have to be made to fit (which you would need for replaceable inserts anyway).

PS the reason bushings like NOE makes are so inexpensive is due to the VERY short sizing section and the lack of seal needed since there is no lube involved. Ram punches can also be undersized a lot and still function well.

[dverna]

The H&I die design is a "bushing" design. Just swap the 'bushing' for a new size when you need it.

Any decent machinist can make whatever size you want, or, get a smaller size and have it reamed and honed to the dia you want. A new bottom punch would have to be made to fit (which you would need for replaceable inserts anyway).

PS the reason bushings like NOE makes are so inexpensive is due to the VERY short sizing section and the lack of seal needed since there is no lube involved. Ram punches can also be undersized a lot and still function well.


Good post.

Wolf,
Years ago I purchased a used small lathe for $750 to do small machining jobs (like making sizer dies). It has been very handy even though I decided not to make dies as I was buying them for less than $25 at the time. It was not worth the effort. But the lathe comes in handy for many other things.

For what you want to do, a small lathe will work. Custom machining in my area is about $100/hr. It will get expensive to try different ideas out.

Even if you cannot get your idea to work, you will have a very useful tool that will serve you for many decades. Most folks here wish they had invested the money in a lathe and the time to learn to use it. You are young enough to derive great benefits from going down that path.

Good luck!

[Mr.doug]

Even if you were to make all the bushings , how would u get all the lube holes
To line up from die Body to inserted bushing and keep it there. Hmmm?

[waksupi]

I don't know if Jim Flinchbaugh still checks in here, but he was casting lubrisizers a few years ago. He could give you some tips, no doubt. He is on Facebook.