45 Special

[ddeaton]

Does anyone use these?

http://www.cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html

[Charlie Sometimes]

It seems the 45 "gamers" have found a way to to "compete" with the 38 shooters and shorten their times, and increase their speed, short of actually changing calibers. :lol:
Neat idea, though- good plinking round, I'll bet. 8-)

[JohnH]

Ooooooh Ahhhhhhhhh, the 45 Auto Rim. Who'd a thunk it.

[runfiverun]

these are thinner rims then the auto rim rim..
but 45 acp colt case is the idea here...
i just use 5 grs of clays and a 160 gr boolit.......

[Dale53]

I bought a few hundred of the .45 Cowboy Special cases to use in my Bisley Vaquero with black powder. They have exactly the same capacity as the .45 ACP and Auto Rim with a .45 Colt rim dimensions.

In effect, you have a .45 Colt Short (See, there really IS a short Colt and a long Colt[smilie=1:.

Dale53

[Charlie Sometimes]

Ah this is what drive the industry- someone thinks they have a better idea. Get enough people on the band wagon and they'll produce it. [smilie=p:

Yea, why wasn't the 45 Auto Rim good enough? :confused: Probably didn't sound "cowboy" enough. :razz:
I thought (I'll have to look it up later, and I'll probably get in trouble for thinking) that the 45 Auto Rim was the same case capacity as the ACP (hence the reason of creation for revolvers that can't chamber ACP without moon clips)- maybe not, but I put 5.5 gr. of Titegroup (not position sensitive) behind my 45 caliber "cowboy" boolits, and they do fine in a 45 LONG Colt case. Is it that the 45 Colt is just not that "special" anymore, and they need something different to "compete"? :violin:
I'm sure that the case capacity difference between the Auto Rim and the Special can't be that much different- especially at "cowboy" velocities. :Fire:
They should just stick to the Auto Rim and quit wasting other peoples resources on repackaging old ideas. :bigsmyl2:

[Willbird]

The 45 auto rim would be better actually, the thin rims on 45 colt were never a GOOD thing. The revolver could use 45 acp too if it was made properly.

Bill

[runfiverun]

the thin rims are used because the lever actions wont take the auto-rim thickness.
nor will they fit in your revolver.
so you either change cases [cheap]or all your guns, not so cheap.
and with all the low density loads a smaller case isn't a bad idea.....
i don't use them either but i can see benefits for them.
i bet my 24" lever would hold about 15-17 of these....

[Irascible]

I don't think a 45 AR case will fit in a 45 Colt chamber. These are meant to fit in existing guns. What's really neat about the whole thing is the he figured out how to make them work in the 1866 and 1873 rifles! These rifles ary very length dependent to feed right.

[Dale53]

Actually, the .45 Cowboy Special answers a real need. The black powder cowboy shooters wanted less recoil than the full .45 Colt cases provide with black powder. The Special does just that WITHOUT the use of fillers. Further, the "genius" of the idea to use the exact same capacity as the Auto Rim Cases and .45 ACP provides a full range of ballistic information for that short case (the Cowboy Special) by simply using .45 ACP data for smokeless loads. Simply brilliant!

A little known sidebar si that the Cowboy Special cases provide the same benefits in a .45 ACP Taurus Tracker as the Auto Rim case does for the 1917 Colts and S&W's (including the modern 25's and 625's). The Tracker will not chamber the Auto Rim cases as the headspace is not sufficient (the Tracker Cylinder opening in the frame is not long enough to chamber for Auto Rim cases) - so-o-o, enter the .45 Special Case for those who own Taurus Trackers and want to shoot rimmed cases.

Dale53

[Charlie Sometimes]

Actually, the .45 Cowboy Special answers a real need. The black powder cowboy shooters wanted less recoil than the full .45 Colt cases provide with black powder. The Special does just that WITHOUT the use of fillers. Further, the "genius" of the idea to use the exact same capacity as the Auto Rim Cases and .45 ACP provides a full range of ballistic information for that short case (the Cowboy Special) by simply using .45 ACP data for smokeless loads. Simply brilliant!

Genius or not, it is still gaming- shooters of the "holy" black wanting less recoil (reason?) than full 45 Colt cases provide with BP. Use fillers. REAL need? Bah. They are still trying to speed up and reduce recoil to compete with the 38 shooters. Where is all the "holy" smoke in the reduction process? GAMERS.

I see this question has been reposted under BP Cartridge, too.

[testhop]

i dont know if this will help be how about triming 45 long colt down
i do it to 44mags if i nwant 44 specals it is cheeper than buying specals new also if a mag case has a very small crack i cut them back too

[Dick Dastardly]

Cowboy 45 Special brass is made by Star Line. It is like 45 Colt brass with the middle taken out, not just shortened. Shortening 45 Colt brass leaves a too thick neck. Reaming is then an option, but the C45Spl brass has it done for you. I don't know about others, but I don't have time to sit around shortening and reaming brass when there is a manufactured solution all ready to load.

Now, as to the "gamer" question. Since when is 900+ fps a gamer load? Since when is the 45 ACP a gamer caliber? I hear some "not invented here" jealousy in that kind of palaver.

I happen to shoot C45Spl brass with my 1860 open tops. Using a bullet that emulates round ball performance I can easily exceed the C&B ballistics. My 60s have Kirst Konverter cylinders and with the C45Spl brass, compressed load of FFFg Holy Black and the excellent EPP-UG boolit I'm getting near 950fps. The pressure doesn't stress the open top 60s, recoil is manageable and they are accurate as all get out.

DD-DLoS

______________________________________________
http://www.biglube.com

[MakeMineA10mm]

Genius or not, it is still gaming- shooters of the "holy" black wanting less recoil (reason?) than full 45 Colt cases provide with BP. Use fillers. REAL need? Bah. They are still trying to speed up and reduce recoil to compete with the 38 shooters. Where is all the "holy" smoke in the reduction process? GAMERS.

I see this question has been reposted under BP Cartridge, too.

Charlie,
I disagree, respectfully. I bought one of the carriers to convert my 1866, but I'm modifying it to use 44 Russian cases. Why? Because I want to replicate the 44 Henry, and this is a quick & dirty (in other words close, and I don't have to mess with heel-style bullets and rimfire cases) way for me to accomplish it. I'll be shooting a reincarnation of the original Henry load - 210-215gr RNFP w/ 25+ grs of Black Powder.

Now, I'm FAR from a gamer. (My times are horrible, in fact! :lol: ) I'm into authenticity and enjoying the cameraderie, along with the challenge of shooting the loads of yesteryear. The 44 Henry was THE cartridge from the end of the Civil War until the mid 1870s, and was still a strong presence well into the 1880s. (Only a handful of 44WCFs were made in 1873 & it took a year to a 1.5 years for it to show up on the frontier in numbers [1875]. Even then, the 1866 continued to be made and sold in fairly respectable numbers for many more years...) That time period: 1865 through 1880 was the real or shall we say most "wild west". 45 Colt and 44WCF only existed in strong numbers in that period during the last five years of it... In fact, Wild Bill Hickock carried cap-and-ball for a significant part of that period, as did many others. I still love the 44WCF and 45 Colt, and they certainly played a big part in their fair share of fights in the west, but it was mid- to late-western era. To say they're the only choice is ignoring history for the sake of Hollywood revisions or big clouds of grey smoke.

Now, all that said, the company that came up with the 45 Cowboy load, cartridge and these carriers did indeed do it for gamers. I'd just hesitate before calling everyone shooting these "a gamer"... :wink:

[jdgabbard]

I don't see why the pistol companies didn't just turn down the cylinders and let these guys shoot AR cases in them. And as for not trimming and reaming, I'm not lazy enough to buy new brass because I'm too lazy to prep what I have for the intended purpose. I actually enjoy doing it. I watch TV while I do it so everyone is happy.

[35remington]

Dale53, a friend uses the 45 special type cases in the Taurus Tracker 45 ACP revolver that cannot use the Auto Rim case, but notes the considerable primer flattening in their use.

The case must have enough slack between it and the recoil shield that the head travels back far enough to rivet the primer fairly seriously.

Since the primer is considerably below flush in the Auto Rim case, I've wanted to try a few Auto Rim cases in it with the head thinned from the back to see if I can get them to chamber, without reducing the flush or below seating of the primer. I've got about 14 thousandths to spare. Don't know if that's enough. Figure it's a future project; hope is to reduce primer flattening through less headspace.

That's the intent, anyway, with the Taurus. Don't know if it'll pan out.

[Charlie Sometimes]

To each his own. :-D

For authenticity sake, they didn't have 45 Colt lever actions either, and they dang sure didn't have 45 Special back then. It amazes me to what length some will go to trim those times and still apear to be "running with the big dawgs"- that's walking a fine line. I think it takes the fun out of the sport. There are too many rules in CAS now because of the equipment race that got started years ago. :Fire:

Again, what was the reason for shortening the case if you are still using 900+ fps loads? Lighter loads and bullets can be used in 45 Colt. ACP does not stand for Auld Cowboy Pistola. It's not a cowboy round, and neither is 45 AR. 44 Russian IS a cowboy caliber, however. :-D

[ddeaton]

To each his own. :-D

For authenticity sake, they didn't have 45 Colt lever actions either, and they dang sure didn't have 45 Special back then. It amazes me to what length some will go to trim those times and still apear to be "running with the big dawgs"- that's walking a fine line. I think it takes the fun out of the sport. There are too many rules in CAS now because of the equipment race that got started years ago. :Fire:

Again, what was the reason for shortening the case if you are still using 900+ fps loads? Lighter loads and bullets can be used in 45 Colt. ACP does not stand for Auld Cowboy Pistola. It's not a cowboy round, and neither is 45 AR. 44 Russian IS a cowboy caliber, however. :-D

My reason would be to shoot a black powder target plinker. I dont shoot CAS and you cant load BP down any lighter than the case size. I load and shoot light target 45acp also, reason being is its easy to shoot a lot of rounds in a session and practice. I see everyones point here, good info.

[JohnH]

Actually, the .45 Cowboy Special answers a real need. The black powder cowboy shooters wanted less recoil than the full .45 Colt cases provide with black powder. The Special does just that WITHOUT the use of fillers. Further, the "genius" of the idea to use the exact same capacity as the Auto Rim Cases and .45 ACP provides a full range of ballistic information for that short case (the Cowboy Special) by simply using .45 ACP data for smokeless loads. Simply brilliant!

A little known sidebar si that the Cowboy Special cases provide the same benefits in a .45 ACP Taurus Tracker as the Auto Rim case does for the 1917 Colts and S&W's (including the modern 25's and 625's). The Tracker will not chamber the Auto Rim cases as the headspace is not sufficient (the Tracker Cylinder opening in the frame is not long enough to chamber for Auto Rim cases) - so-o-o, enter the .45 Special Case for those who own Taurus Trackers and want to shoot rimmed cases.

Dale53

I have a 45 ACP Tracker, and simply shoot it without moonclips. In my backyard I've no need for the speed of emptying a rim offers, beside, a moonclip is faster in both the empty and reload than singles or speed loaders would ever be.

I'll never be convinced that the 45 Special is not aimed at "gamers". What other concievable use would it be when one takes into account 45 Schofield cases made by Starline as well. Historically, the Schofield WAS the 45 Special.

That said, I don't think for a moment that the cases target audience should in anyway diminish it's utility or popularity. I just don't think we ought to be dishonest or disingenious about it's intended purpose, as the truth is, outside CBA shootzen, it is likely to be unheard of and unused. It is impossible to look at the case and not see it's roots and into the mind of the designer. It strikes me as a way for Starline to maximize their tooling investment, as the case can be made on existing tooling with no other changes than draw sequencing.

Including the 45 Gap, Casull, 460 S&W this makes 8 45 caliber revolver/pistol cases (45 Colt, Schofield, ACP, Auto Rim, Casull, Gap, 460, and now Special) wonder what they'll come up with next, Anyone for the the 45 Short Magnum? ;) (there's one I've forgotten, I can't remember it, it's a hot 45 ACP, That makes 9, WOW!

[Dale53]

I am fully aware of the "gamer" roots of the .45 Cowboy Special. However, the fact remains, it is a VERY clever idea.

My particular Tracker (alas, now moved on) worked PERFECTLY with the Special cases. Perfect headspace and no dealing with those VERY thin Tracker full moon clips.

I will be using my cases for light target loads in my .45 Colt when using black powder AND smokeless (if they shoot well).

Dale53

[Leftoverdj]

Someone reinvented the .450 Revolver cartridge.

[cajun shooter]

Charlie Sometimes, The reason they didn't have 45 Colt rifles was that the early 45 Colt cases had a very small almost not there rim. Nothing for a extractor to grab. If it had todays design then we would be shooting authenic 45 Colt rifles. By the Way I choose to shoot in Frontier Cartridge with full cases of Holy Black in 45 Colt that's pushing the 250 gr. Not a Gamer!! I suspect that AJ did design the 45 Cowboy to be a gamer round but that as has been posted here, some pards found other uses. If not a gamer round, why have redesigned carriers and gunsmith work on a rifle that already shoots the 1873 Colt round?