308W Lyman 311291 and Red Dot

[Anonym]

Good morning. I had an interesting thing happen to me last night while working up a load for my son. He bought a Savage M110 in 308 Winchester and thought it would be fun to shoot a cast bullet hunting this deer season. Most shots would be less than 100-yds, and I had a Lyman 311291 in the stables as well as a lot of Red Dot powder. After doing a lot of research and seeing several people using this combination, I loaded up a couple of rounds using 12-gr of powder and seating to the crimp groove with a bullet cast of #2 and sized to 0.311", checked, and lubed with Carnauba Blue. Cases were FL sized and trimmed, once-fired, with snug primer pockets and CCI LR Primers.

Seating any longer tended to get the front driving band into the throat and "stick" the bullet, so backing off to the crimp groove allowed the rounds to chamber easily. Nose of the boolit was 0.300" and driving bands were confirmed 0.311".

So last night we had 5 rounds that we were going to test out and see if we could get on paper. The first round loaded easily and shot as expected without much recoil. However, when he went to open the bolt, it was jammed and the bolt handle would not lift. I removed the action from the stock and also dropped the accu-trigger to verify the bolt lock was not damaged and engaged (which it was not). I probed the bolt head pin to ensure it was not broken and nothing was preventing the bolt from operating, and then proceeded to tap the bolt open and rearward.

In attempting to drive the bolt rearward, the rim of the cartridge sheared off and I was able to drive out the stuck case with a cleaning rod. The brass showed excessive pressure signs with a flattened primer and bulged brass around the bolt head. The extractor was damaged on removal, so I've had to order a replacement. I've never seen anything like this out of this rifle shooting factory ammunition. Any speculation on the cause? I'm going to disassemble the remaining rounds to try over, but this one has me baffled. Any help would be appreciated!

[Tatume]

I don't use Red Dot or Blue Dot because of stories like this one. I'm sure there are plenty of safe recipes for these powders, but they seem to be very unforgiving of departures from published load data.

[Ben]

That is a pretty stiff charge.

[popper]

30-06 shows 10gr max for 170 cast bullet.

[Ben]

Yes, it seems that 12.0 would be right there on the edge if not over.

[TurnipEaterDown]

In attempting to drive the bolt rearward, the rim of the cartridge sheared off and I was able to drive out the stuck case with a cleaning rod. The brass showed excessive pressure signs with a flattened primer and bulged brass around the bolt head. The extractor was damaged on removal, so I've had to order a replacement. I've never seen anything like this out of this rifle shooting factory ammunition. Any speculation on the cause?

These are indications of extreme over pressure. Always.

Page 185 of the 3rd edition Lyman Cast Bullet handbook does list 308 Win, #311291 bullet, Win 8 1/2 primer, with up to 12.5 gr Red Dot @ 39,900 CUP. But there are caveats that apply liberally to data like this, and the round you shot is obviously far over the pressure ceiling.

Maybe something like a 7 gr start charge and a Chronograph will get you going in the right direction after repair and thorough inspection of the receiver & bolt.

[Larry Gibson]

Sounds like a possible double charge or if the charge was thrown it may have bridged in the thrower causing a lighter chargee in one case and an over charge in that one. Suggest pulling the bullets in the remaining 3 cartridges and double checking/weighing the powder charges.

[lar45]

I would also use a pistol primer instead of the rifle primer.
Also, what was the loaded length and bullet weight?

[405grain]

Fast pistol powders can be unforgiving if overcharged. Even a small amount over the recommended load will really spike the pressure. Before I seat bullets on anything, rifle or pistol, I put the loading block under a light and look down inside every single case to make sure that there's the same amount of powder in all of the cases. Under charges or over charges will be immediately apparent. Bulky powders or ones with longer kernels might bridge, and this could cause one load to be too light and the next one way too strong. It doesn't matter, even with powders that flow like water I always check every cartridge, every time.

[Ben]

Considering the severity of the damage, this one looks like a double charge.

[Anonym]

Pulled the remaining rounds. Each load was thrown by hand and checked, but must have set it improperly as the charges read 22gr instead of 12. Luckily this is a good action and a relatively forgiving powder. Not a rookie, but obviously susceptible to rookie mistakes. Thanks everyone. Think I’ll avoid the Red Dot and stick with a more suitable powder.

[versa-06]

I don't think there's anything wrong with using Red Dot. It's my opinion that every charge with fast powder should be weighed & then boolit seated one at a time. I've been using fast powders for many years but I weigh every round then seat the boolit every time. Your mileage may vary. -06

[Anonym]

True. I did weigh every charge, I just weight them to the wrong amount. I have some IMR4198 that I have a decent quantity of. Think I’ll start at the (correct) minimum and see how that treats me. Thanks guys!

[gumbo333]

V 06 is right on, fast powders make great reduced velocity cast loads. He is also right on about weighing every single charge then seating the boolit before starting the next powder charge for the next case. Sure it takes longer, you need really good habits. Maybe that’s why God invented a radio. The rewards are worth it.

[txbirdman]

The method I use to load fast burning powders like Red Dot and Unique for cast is to use the proper Lee dipper to measure a charge slightly below the desired charge weight; put the charge on the scale; and trickle up to the desired load. I then immediately seat a bullet before repeating the process. Certainly not the only way but has worked for me.

[Mike H]

Pleasing to see the problem solved quickly and thanks to Anonym for his honesty and openness.

[Larry Gibson]

Pleasing to see the problem solved quickly and thanks to Anonym for his honesty and openness.

I'll second this^^^^^^

[lar45]

Quickload thinks the pressure could have been around 72kpsi with 22gns
12gns should be around 32k
10 - 24k

[Anonym]

I'll second this^^^^^^

Thanks guys. This is why this is one of my favorite sites and why I’m here. Good information and good people. No need to be ashamed of a mistake, and it’s there for us all to learn from. I’ll post results of the search for a new load once my new extractor arrives.

[farmbif]

I never did understand why to use those fast powders in rifle cast loads. especially tin caliber like 308 when there are so many powders that work real well from 4198, 4895, 8208 to blc and 2520 and so many others is it because you can be shooting using just a little bit of powder?

[versa-06]

To answer your question; Yes, & to reduce muzzle blast, & recoil. & I don't have a thing against saving powder. An over-charge is an over-charge, no matter the burn rate of the powder. One can overcharge 4350 as easy as Red Dot. That is why I weigh & process every round one at a time no matter the powder used. I don't trust powder throwers for one reason, I use a Lot of bulky powders. Like 800x, SR-4759, & stick powders. -06

[openbook]

One follow-on thought: Ed Harris's article "'The Load' is 13 Grains of Red Dot" could be easy to misread. That article said that

"'The Load' of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot."

At that point it would be very easy to make the jump to using this load in .308. But Harris had further cautions:

"The case must be LARGER than the 30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi."

The .308 satisfies the second criterion, but NOT the first. The 30-40 Krag is a large case, only a tad smaller than its child the 30-06. In contrast, the .308 was designed explicitly as a short-action semi-automatic case and is substantially smaller than the 30-06 or, relevantly, the 30-40 Krag. The difference explains why Ed Harris's 13 grains is described in the mentioned article as a "starting" load, whereas the 12.5 grains that TurnipEater quoted from Lyman's 3rd Cast is a maximum load.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I never did understand why to use those fast powders in rifle cast loads. especially in caliber like 308 when there are so many powders that work real well from 4198, 4895, 8208 to blc and 2520 and so many others is it because you can be shooting using just a little bit of powder?

The obvious drawbacks of very fast powders in rifle cases under cast are: easy ability to double or even triple charge, low volume fill and position sensitivity to ignition consistency, and I am sure others will add some (if so inclined)
The advantages: flexibility w/ existing powder stores, easy ignition of fast powders, economy -- few pounds of BE, W231, 700x/800x, etc. go a long way, cleaner burn at lower Pressure / velocity, etc.

When I first read it years ago I was amazed to find how little difference in max velocity potential there was on jacketed bullets in a case like a 308 w/ a 150 gr between something like I4227 & I3031 -- 570 fps. While certainly a substantial difference, 4227 at 2260 fps is still good enough for much practice, is good getting a youth to use 'the big gun', and it does so at 57% of the powder. Am I saying that I have seen great accuracy in the particular application? No, I don't even own a 308, but it does illustrate why the choice for fast powders Can make sense in Some use cases.

The double checking the throw w/ the fastest powders is really important though, and while I have always used the method 405 grain mentions in post #9, I have also sometimes chosen to weigh charged cases as a double check. Yes, many bulk cases vary a few grains, and this method won't catch a high charge from things like the bridging / hang up of powder in the measure spindle mentioned, but it will certainly catch a double charge of 12 grains. Catching a scale setting boo boo of 22 rather than 12 grains would not happen though when All cases were loaded the same.

[quilbilly]

One of my 308's really likes 10.4 gr. of Red Dot with CB's but I always use an LED flashlight to look into the charged case to make sure there is no double charge before I seat a boolit.

[versa-06]

I usually use a marked wooden dowel to judge depth of charge.

[jaysouth]

One of my 308's really likes 10.4 gr. of Red Dot with CB's but I always use an LED flashlight to look into the charged case to make sure there is no double charge before I seat a boolit.

Good move!

[Iowa Fox]

Anymore when ever I set up the scale to weigh charges I have my wife double check me. My eyes aren't so good and my hands shake like crazy plus she doesn't mind helping me. I started having her double check me about 8 or 9 years ago after a good friend of mine ran into problems. Long story short he was just like me old didn't see so well and shakey. Come to find out he got the 5 grain weight one notch off so he was dropping 5 grains heavy. We were at a match 1000 miles from home. He had the same scale as me a old Redding with chrome plated beam with red markings.

[dverna]

You used "The Load" and hundreds of thousands of loads have proven that it is safe.

Any powder is going to cause an issue if is 10 gr more than the recipe.

You made an honest mistake. I nearly did the same thing once using a mechanical scale that I had accidently "bumped". I was lucky and caught the problem.

IMO the most "accident prone" way to reload is to use a single stage press, loading block, and weighed charges. When I do it, I use an electronic scale, verify it, and never use a loading block. The case is charged with powder and then the bullet seated. The case never leaves my hand once it is charged until the completed round and placed in the box. This eliminates double charging.

Glad it did not cause any harm to you or the gun.

[Anonym]

You used "The Load" and hundreds of thousands of loads have proven that it is safe.

Any powder is going to cause an issue if is 10 gr more than the recipe.

You made an honest mistake. I nearly did the same thing once using a mechanical scale that I had accidently "bumped". I was lucky and caught the problem.

IMO the most "accident prone" way to reload is to use a single stage press, loading block, and weighed charges. When I do it, I use an electronic scale, verify it, and never use a loading block. The case is charged with powder and then the bullet seated. The case never leaves my hand once it is charged until the completed round and placed in the box. This eliminates double charging.

Glad it did not cause any harm to you or the gun.

Dverna,

There was an earlier response stating that “load” was not intended for 308W due to case capacity. Are you using in 308W or a larger cartridge?

Yes, I was loading on a single stage press, one cartridge at a time after prepping the cases. I was only doing 5 rounds for testing purposes, so it was more than likely thinking the ticks on the main beam were increments of 5 instead of 10, or I bumped it a notch as well. I can’t honestly remember. I use an RCBS 1010 scale.

[quilbilly]

I also use a single stage press. When I started using small charges of fast burning powders like Red Dot, Bullseye, et.al. in large rifle cases, I started making my own dippers for specific loads. I made them by cutting off brass rifle cartridge cases and adding a twisted wire handle to the case. For instance, this morning I reloaded a few 357 max cartridges using a .93 cc dipper made from the bottom of a 6.5 Creedmore case. (who says a 6.5 CM isn't useful). By doing this, then looking into the 357 max case there will either be no charge or a double charge which is quite visible. For me this system is quite precise, safe, and avoids weighing every charge. The tedious part is making a precise dipper because it is rare to get it right the first, second, or third time.

[dverna]

Dverna,

There was an earlier response stating that “load” was not intended for 308W due to case capacity. Are you using in 308W or a larger cartridge?

Yes, I was loading on a single stage press, one cartridge at a time after prepping the cases. I was only doing 5 rounds for testing purposes, so it was more than likely thinking the ticks on the main beam were increments of 5 instead of 10, or I bumped it a notch as well. I can’t honestly remember. I use an RCBS 1010 scale.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The%20Load.htm

This will help you. It is a very good article written by a man who can be trusted.

Short story...your load is safe.

Lastly...do not beat yourself up. It is easy to bump the weights on a mechanical scale. Many people do not like electronic scales, but I have had good results from the RCBS Chargemaster. Not sure if a $300 unit is better than a $50 eBay offering but just my experience.

Quilbilly's post offers a good option...using a dipper. It is fast, cannot bridge, idiot proof, and accurate enough for most applications. The key is using it the same way every time, but muscle memory is your friend there. If you are anal, (I am not), make the dipper to throw about .3 gr less than you want and trickle to your desired charge. If you are trickling more than a few kernels of powder you know your scale is "off". Dippers are quite consistent.

[famdoc2892]

I️’ll have to admit I️ like the idea of one powder for multiple loads, presents its own challenge to the reloader. Admittedly not always the best powder for every job, but fun to see if you can tease “another one” out a particular firearm/boolit combo.