Model 94 30-30 at 100 Yards. How?

[MSD MIke]

I see folks say they are shooting 2-3'' groups at 100 yards with their model 94's. Mine is (Mid 80's vintage) accurate at shorter ranges but the front sight more than covers a complete rifle target at 100 yards and I can barely keep it on the paper. Based on accuracy at shorter range I know the rifle can do better. So, my question is, are the guys shooting accurately at 100 yards doing it with factory sights? If so, what sight picture are you using? If using aftermarket sights, what are you using?
I am going to participate in some cast bullet rifle competitions at my local range and need to be able to hit 100-yard steel targets if I do my part.

Thanks
Mike

[35 Rem]

For most scopes are being used or if not then a peep sight of some sort. I put a Lyman peep on my Marlin 1894 to keep it looking more traditional. However for my other two lever actions that are used to deer hunt, they wear scopes because otherwise I would be very limited in range.

[ascast]

How old are you? I can wear the same glasses I bought in '96 without headaches. I would suggest a new front sight. Personally, I like a narrow flat top front sight.

[1006]

With the buckhorns-try sighting it in using a 6 O’Clock hold. That is what I do with my Model 94, but I am lucky to get a 2inch group at 100yards, it is usually more like 4 inches. My gun has bright red-orange fluorescent type paint on the front sight, and that also helps. If I am hunting from a stand or blind, I take gun with a scope. The iron sighted gun is just my walking around gun.

[Jackpine]

I shoot a lot of long range with iron sights, out as far as 1000 yards. With the right sight setup, especially with a target of good resolutin and the right size, accuracy approaching that with a scope is possible.

For me, first thing is to sight using six oclock hold on target, not covering target with front bead. On paper, bullseye of 6 to 8 inches gives best resolution. Replacing front sight with something like Lyman 17a. Depending on the target, especially if you can't get the best resolution, these tend to work well. Get the laser cut inserts from Lee Shaver are well worth the investment. They are cut with thinner circles, so they don't block out so much down range. When using them with the 17a you can stack two sights together to get a thicker circle if you so desire.

Peep sight, mounted as far back as possible will vastly improve things. I think tang sight is best. A vernier will give you much more longer distance options and better windage.

Finally, depending on your eyesight, glasses may be important. I have glasses that have the focal point at the front sight. That is a great help for me. The first time I tried to get glasses the guy was not a shooter and could not understand what I was trying to do, and the effort ended in failure. I went to the second and was explaining I wanted glasses with a focal point 36" out and immeadiatly said, "Oh, you want shooting glasses, I do those all the time." She also suggested I put a very narrow bifocal strip on the bottom, with maginifying, so I could more easily see the little lines on the vernier. Works great for me.

Good luck.

[pricedo]

I see folks say they are shooting 2-3'' groups at 100 yards with their model 94's. Mine is (Mid 80's vintage) accurate at shorter ranges but the front sight more than covers a complete rifle target at 100 yards and I can barely keep it on the paper. Based on accuracy at shorter range I know the rifle can do better. So, my question is, are the guys shooting accurately at 100 yards doing it with factory sights? If so, what sight picture are you using? If using aftermarket sights, what are you using?
I am going to participate in some cast bullet rifle competitions at my local range and need to be able to hit 100-yard steel targets if I do my part.

Thanks
Mike

I noticed over the years that there is often considerable difference in bragging groups "shot" in the bar or coffee shops and the groups shot on target paper at the range ... nuff said :mrgreen:

[slam45]

i use an older redfield peep sight with a Skinner serrated blade front sight and a Merritt adjustable aperture in he rear sight...I'm 71 use glasses when shooting now but have on good days shot one of my pre '64 1894's into 1 to 1.5" at 100yd... and destroy small soup cans from 50 to around 125yd ... i do practice regularly and notice when i haven't been shooting often enough...

[freakonaleash]

The only way I'm shooting 2 to 3 inch groups is with a peep and a front rest. Off hand with a peep 6 inches or better.

[dverna]

I noticed over the years that there is often considerable difference in bragging groups "shot" in the bar or coffee shops and the groups shot on target paper at the range ... nuff said :mrgreen:

Yep.

OP, some questions for you.

Are you using cast bullets? If so, how do jacketed bullets group?
How do you define "accuracy"?
Has another shooter tried your gun/ammo?

[pietro]

.

IME, for paper target work, a vast difference in accuracy can occur with any rifle with 2-piece stocks because of the way it's held @ the shooting bench.

I got the best accuracy from my leverguns by not let the rifle touch anything other than my hands & shoulder - taking care that my forward hand is under the forend on the front rest, and pulling the butt back solidly into my shoulder, ensuring the tip of the buttstock doesn't touch the benchtop when firing.

I put receiver peep sights and a fiber-optic front sight on all my leverguns except for my somewhat longer range BigBore .356, which got scoped.

Although these rifles are accurate enough for hunting, IMO it's an unreasonable expectation to think they should be as accurate as a target or bolt-action rifle.

Also, these guns can have things that vary between rifles, and should be taken into consideration - like tight/loose barrel bands, tight/loose forend fit to the barrel, and muzzle/crown issues.

.

[1006]

I should say: any accuracy claim from me refers to shooting from a rest…..

[MSD MIke]

I shoot a lot of long range with iron sights, out as far as 1000 yards. With the right sight setup, especially with a target of good resolutin and the right size, accuracy approaching that with a scope is possible.

For me, first thing is to sight using six oclock hold on target, not covering target with front bead. On paper, bullseye of 6 to 8 inches gives best resolution. Replacing front sight with something like Lyman 17a. Depending on the target, especially if you can't get the best resolution, these tend to work well. Get the laser cut inserts from Lee Shaver are well worth the investment. They are cut with thinner circles, so they don't block out so much down range. When using them with the 17a you can stack two sights together to get a thicker circle if you so desire.

Peep sight, mounted as far back as possible will vastly improve things. I think tang sight is best. A vernier will give you much more longer distance options and better windage.

Finally, depending on your eyesight, glasses may be important. I have glasses that have the focal point at the front sight. That is a great help for me. The first time I tried to get glasses the guy was not a shooter and could not understand what I was trying to do, and the effort ended in failure. I went to the second and was explaining I wanted glasses with a focal point 36" out and immeadiatly said, "Oh, you want shooting glasses, I do those all the time." She also suggested I put a very narrow bifocal strip on the bottom, with maginifying, so I could more easily see the little lines on the vernier. Works great for me.

Good luck.

Thanks, Jackpine, I think a sight change may be in order. I can shoot with decent accuracy out to 100 yards with the peep sights on my 03A3. The front on the 94 just completely covers any target at that range. I like the six o'clock hold option other than I run out of sight adjustment with my cast bullet loads. My jacketed loads hit higher, and I can probably make it work with those. The glasses thing, ya I am working through that now. Even so, the peeps on the 03A3 work for me so I think a sight change might help.

[MSD MIke]

Yep.

OP, some questions for you.

Are you using cast bullets? If so, how do jacketed bullets group?
How do you define "accuracy"?
Has another shooter tried your gun/ammo?

Shooting cast or jacketed are similar but with significantly different POI.
For this rifle, my accuracy standard is to be able to hit a gallon milk jug at 100 yards. Right now, I can't see it due to the front sight covering it up. Can't use a six o'clock hold because I don't have enough sight adjustment (With cast) to do that without shooting low, even at 50 yards.
No other shooter has tried my gun and load combo. Not at 100 yards anyway. I'll let one of the guys at the range try it out. There are several that are pretty good with leverguns.
I think if I can find a narrower front sight that would help enough that I could work on my technique and practice.

Thanks
Mike

[MSD MIke]

How old are you? I can wear the same glasses I bought in '96 without headaches. I would suggest a new front sight. Personally, I like a narrow flat top front sight.

58 and I don't see as well as I used to for sure. Any suggestions on a source for a front sight light you suggest?

Thank,

Mike

[kungfustyle]

http://www.skinnersights.com/front_sights_5.html
These will work and you can shape them any way you want. I made a point with my sight, like a Mauser front sight. And two inches is very doable with my Winchester. Best of luck.

[smorin2]

I put a Skinner peep sight on my Henry and it greatly improved my groups. I spoke to the folks at Skinner and they got me the proper height front sight as well. I'd highly recommend their sights. I'm past 60 now and the peep helps at 100 yds. which is my limit.

[pricedo]

I get consistent 2" or less 3-shot groups at 50 yds off the bench with my Marlin 336SS in 30-30 Win using a Holosun HS510C red dot ... the same load will shrink to 1" or less 3-shot groups @50yds with the Leupold Ultralight VX-2 2-7x28 scope mounted on the same Picatinny rail ... both the red dot and scope are on QD mounts and I can switch them without either losing "0" ... I can barely see the iron sights on the rifle unaided by an optic.

[M-Tecs]

When using iron sights the front sight must be crystal clear and the point of focus. That means the target will be somewhat out of focus yet of a type that allows you to have a repeatable point of aim. Changing the rear to a peep should also help.

The better NRA Service rifle shooters can hold 1 MOA out to 1,000 yards with a post front sight and a peep type rear.

[MSD MIke]

Any thoughts on the Williams front sights with changeable inserts?

Thanks
Mike

[BoBSavage]

58 and I don't see as well as I used to for sure. Any suggestions on a source for a front sight light you suggest?

Thank,

Mike

I had to switch to a scope on all my rifles a few years ago. Age hurts!

[Griff]

I had to start wearing glasses to see at distance around 58 or so... Now at 73, even with glasses I can't see the front sight as well as then. Group size has suffered as a result. But, I still have my best results with tang peep and a Lyman 17A front with the flat post insert. I use this combo on a couple of Winchester 94s and my pistol caliber Low-Wall.
318792

[Castaway]

6 o’clock hold and flat front sight. Next upgrade is a tang sight. Marble makes an excellent sight with windage adjustment as well as elevation. With the Marble, you get three different sized apertures to fit light conditions. Stay away from red or green front sights. The colored sights “bleed” around the edges and you can’t get a crisp sigh alignment with the bull

[Hick]

Lyman globe on the front and a peep on the back. Just line up the two holes and put the target in the center of the hole.

[WRideout]

You might also consider using a larger target. I once shot a high power rifle match (I am not really a competition shooter) and was surprised at the size of the1,000 yard target. However it is needed just to see what you are shooting at. It is possible with iron sights to hit the middle of a large target consistently, at great distance.

Wayne

[pietro]

Any suggestions on a source for a front sight light you suggest?

Thank,

Mike

Since the size/width of your front sight is blocking out your target finesse, I would respectfully suggest doing one of two things.

Swap out your existing front sight blade for a small bead (1/16") front sight (under $10)

or

Swap out your front sight blade for a bright, fiber-optic front sight (under $10).

FWIW, all aftermarket bead front sights, including fiber-optic sights, are available in two different beads sizes (1/16"-fine & 3/32"- coarse) from most makers.

The FO front sight beads also available in different colors (red, amber, green, etc, etc) for folks with different color perceptions, again from various makers.

You will most likely need to surf the various makers to get what suits your vision/needs.

Some FO dovetail front sight makers are: Williams Gun Sight Co, Marbles, Tru-Glo, Hi-Viz, & New England Custom Gun

.

[MarkP]

Use a reference point that is repeatable such as staple a white paper plate to a black sheet of cardboard. Align your front bead such that it is concentric with the paper plate. Should see an equal amount of white around the perimeter of your dark front bead. Or you can make a thick black ring on a white target that is slightly larger than what your front sight covers at sighting distance and align to have a uniform white ring.

Or on retangular targets align your front bead on the side edge of the target and top edge. Basically keep the circle tangent to one horizontal edge and one vertical edge. Different colors / contrast will help. Staple targets to a large sheet of cardboard that is a different color as compared to your targets. This also works well with scopes.

[indian joe]

I noticed over the years that there is often considerable difference in bragging groups "shot" in the bar or coffee shops and the groups shot on target paper at the range ... nuff said :mrgreen:

this!!!!!

[Lloyd Smale]

I noticed over the years that there is often considerable difference in bragging groups "shot" in the bar or coffee shops and the groups shot on target paper at the range ... nuff said :mrgreen:

yup and ive seen many guys who shot one lucky 3 shot moa group claim there 2.5 in gun is moa accurate. when i claim a gun shoots an _ sized group. its an average of 3 5shot groups with no called fliers. ive never seen a win 94 3030 do that. now i have seen a few marlin 3030s that would. dad had (nephew has it now) 50's era 22in 336 adl that would shoot win 150 corelocks into an 1-1 1/8 all day long and yes im talking 5 shot groups

[MSD MIke]

I appreciate everyone's suggestions and advice. I'm also glad that not being able to shoot my 94 well at 100 yards with aging eyes and original sights isn't unique to me! I think I can find a suitable solution with the sights, practice and get a decent result. Fortunately, the competition I want to shoot in is informal and just for fun. I see the competitors miss often enough to know they have similar struggles to me.
Over the years, I have found that trying to shoot groups with lever guns and mini 14's can be frustrating. Yet shooting them off hand at reasonable ranges can be great fun.

Thanks
Mike

[dverna]

Mike,
Some of the advice so far may not help you much as you want to shoot steel plates at 100 yards. You have to deal with those targets and not what can be done to make paper targets easier to use.

I have done well with tang sights on pistol caliber carbines, but they are not cheap. They come with different size apertures, so some "fine tuning" is possible. Merit also makes an adjustable aperture but I have not tried it.

With the "peep" sight, your eye will naturally find the center and you need put the front sight where you want to hit. You may need to play with what type of front sight suits your needs, but they are not expensive.

There should be receiver mounted peep sights available for your 94. A tang sight will give a slightly longer sight radius than a receiver peep, and that helps with getting more precision.

Good luck!!

[Jackpine]

Mike,

Running out of sight is a common issue, especially with cast bullets as the distances increase. I shoot strictly cast bullets, none over 1400 fps.

You can spend a thoughsand dollars on a vernier sight, but I have had very good luck with Pedersoli verniers that you can get for under $200. The big difference between a cheaper Pedersoli and and high end MVA is the backlash in the adjustment. I always adjust by turning the sight higher, so if I want to lower, I turn down past my desired point and then come back up, then locking the eyepiece. Otherwise recoil will cause the eyepeice to drop to the bottom of the backlash. The other shortfall of the cheaper sights is limited windage adjustment, but when you initially install and sight in, I use the front sight to get the windage of the rear centered (do it on a calm day) and have never run out of adjustment. Actually on steel target matches, I usually don't adjsut but "hold off." That is another reason I like the circle front, but your mileage may vary.

Also, having the rear aperture the correct size is important. You want to see daylight around the front sight and the aperture size needed will vary with the size of the front, distance from aperture to eye and your eyes. You can solve this by spending $100 on an adjustable eyepeice, but I have found that using a numbered drill set and gradually enlarging till I reach the size I need works pretty well.

One thing I forgot about the Pedersoli is that you can adjust the angle of the sight so that your aperture hole is perfectly aligned. This will vary from rifle to rifle and saves having to buy a sight which is prematched to the particlular firearm.

Good luck,

Jackpine

I have have higher end

[Larry Gibson]

yup and ive seen many guys who shot one lucky 3 shot moa group claim there 2.5 in gun is moa accurate. ........

Yup, right on Lloyd.....

Who needs the sights anyways....I can instinct shoot my ole winny thutty-thutty and hit a deer in the eye across a thousand yard canyon with the deer on a bounding run while I's at a full gallop with my trusty stead riding bareback and hangin injin style on the off side shootin under the steads neck....yup, who needs them sights anyways.......:guntootsmiley:

[veeman]

The Marbles Bullseye peep sight has helped me a great deal, and have them on several of my leverguns.

[Char-Gar]

.

IME, for paper target work, a vast difference in accuracy can occur with any rifle with 2-piece stocks because of the way it's held @ the shooting bench.

I got the best accuracy from my leverguns by not let the rifle touch anything other than my hands & shoulder - taking care that my forward hand is under the forend on the front rest, and pulling the butt back solidly into my shoulder, ensuring the tip of the buttstock doesn't touch the benchtop when firing.

I put receiver peep sights and a fiber-optic front sight on all my leverguns except for my somewhat longer range BigBore .356, which got scoped.

Although these rifles are accurate enough for hunting, IMO it's an unreasonable expectation to think they should be as accurate as a target or bolt-action rifle.

Also, these guns can have things that vary between rifles, and should be taken into consideration - like tight/loose barrel bands, tight/loose forend fit to the barrel, and muzzle/crown issues.

.

This would have been my post, plus when shooting for a group, single load a round in the chamber and don't run them through the mag tube. The shifting weight of the rounds in the tube will effect accuracy.

a94 Carbine is a 4 to 5 inch rifle and groups less are fluke 3 shot groups. They are short to medium range hunting/working rifles and not target firearms.

[pricedo]

I truthfully spoke about my shooting performance with my Marlin 336SS ... good but not stellar ... I'm sure there are plenty of shooters on here that could do better ... one thing I'm certain of is that the dead deer I took were ALL believers as the ground rushed up to meet them

[Larry Gibson]

I see folks say they are shooting 2-3'' groups at 100 yards with their model 94's. Mine is (Mid 80's vintage) accurate at shorter ranges but the front sight more than covers a complete rifle target at 100 yards and I can barely keep it on the paper. Based on accuracy at shorter range I know the rifle can do better. So, my question is, are the guys shooting accurately at 100 yards doing it with factory sights? If so, what sight picture are you using? If using aftermarket sights, what are you using?
I am going to participate in some cast bullet rifle competitions at my local range and need to be able to hit 100-yard steel targets if I do my part.

Thanks
Mike

Here is the suggested sight alignment [relationship of front sight to rear sight] and sight picture [sight alignment in relation to the target] as printed in the Winchester manual which came with a M94.


318799

First thing to note is the size of the bullseye (black part) of the target is large enough to give a definite place to aim.

Next note the how the bead sits in the notch with equal "light' around the notch between the notch and the bead front sight. The relationship between the bead and the rear sight notch is called "sight alignment". It must remain the same throughout the shooting process and the eye should focus on the front sight keeping it as clear ass possible. It is ok if the bullseye [I prefer to use an 8 - 12" bullseye] is slightly blurred as you can still aim at the same spot on the "blur" for each shot. If the front sight is blurred and the target focused clear then the groups/accuracy will be poor. Focus on the front sight.

I like to zero my M94 sights so the center of the group/cone of fire is 2 to 2 1/2" above the point of aim at 100 yards. Also, when zeroing from the bench I prefer to hold the M94 with both elbows resting on the bench. I hold the fore end as when shooting it and rest the back of the fore end hand solidly on a firm sandbag. Using good breathing and trigger control I can shoot 2 - 3" five shot groups with my full bore 178 gr 311041HP hunting loads. Remember, focus on the front sight and use a large enough aiming point.

[Old-Win]

We just had our last gong match at Harris, Minnesota this past weekend. It's called a lever gun silhouette match out to 300 yards. Almost all of us shoot 17A's for a front sight and a good adjustable tang sight like an MVA schutzen or mid range. I have even drilled out the largest Lyman aperture sight so that I can see the targets at that range. We take 10 shots off hand at targets at 200 yd and 10 shots off cross sticks at 300 yd. The 2 targets are 16 inches and 20 inches in diameter. You have to work at good load development to get 2 - 2 1/2" groups at a 100 yds. I shoot a Lyman 311041 gas check bullet which weighs about 173 gr and sized at .309". My two best loads are 14 gr of 4759 and 17 gr of 3031. Try different locations on your rest. Mine shoots best off the forearm.

[farmbif]

one of my weekly exercises is shooting old 22's, either marlin 39 or Remington pump with original iron sights at 3" steel pole at 80 yards. I have to wear 3.00 power reading glasses to read the type on this screen and those iron sights are blurred but im still able to do it. usually it is common to ring the pole 8 or 9 out of 10 shots.
I guess if you practice you can do it

[indian joe]

one of my weekly exercises is shooting old 22's, either marlin 39 or Remington pump with original iron sights at 3" steel pole at 80 yards. I have to wear 3.00 power reading glasses to read the type on this screen and those iron sights are blurred but im still able to do it. usually it is common to ring the pole 8 or 9 out of 10 shots.
I guess if you practice you can do it


really no good substitute for burnt powder and trigger time !
one comment back to some of the earlier posts ---if you cant see your front sight clearly your goose is cooked
I am nudging 75yrs - use no 3's to see the screen 1.5's to shoot - still shooting blackpowder competitively - I have square blade front sight that cover the width of the black on the target (8 inches) and a flat top rear with a correspondingly wide notch - on a good day off a rest I can make a ten shot group thats half the size of that front sight - cuz I can see it ok ......everybody sees different I guess - seems I do better with a peep using no glasses.

[MSD MIke]

Here is the suggested sight alignment [relationship of front sight to rear sight] and sight picture [sight alignment in relation to the target] as printed in the Winchester manual which came with a M94.


318799

First thing to note is the size of the bullseye (black part) of the target is large enough to give a definite place to aim.

Next note the how the bead sits in the notch with equal "light' around the notch between the notch and the bead front sight. The relationship between the bead and the rear sight notch is called "sight alignment". It must remain the same throughout the shooting process and the eye should focus on the front sight keeping it as clear ass possible. It is ok if the bullseye [I prefer to use an 8 - 12" bullseye] is slightly blurred as you can still aim at the same spot on the "blur" for each shot. If the front sight is blurred and the target focused clear then the groups/accuracy will be poor. Focus on the front sight.

I like to zero my M94 sights so the center of the group/cone of fire is 2 to 2 1/2" above the point of aim at 100 yards. Also, when zeroing from the bench I prefer to hold the M94 with both elbows resting on the bench. I hold the fore end as when shooting it and rest the back of the fore end hand solidly on a firm sandbag. Using good breathing and trigger control I can shoot 2 - 3" five shot groups with my full bore 178 gr 311041HP hunting loads. Remember, focus on the front sight and use a large enough aiming point.

Thanks Larry, I shoot the same bullet but not quite "Full Bore". I may need to up my load some to be able to use that sight picture. I tried a Unique load, and it grouped well but did not shoot to the sights in any position. I couldn't raise my sight far enough. I went to a 2400 load at about 1750 FPS, and it works well at the highest sight position but not using a 6 o'clock hold. I'll load a few at higher velocity with a rifle powder and check results.

Mike

[pricedo]

I had to start wearing glasses to see at distance around 58 or so... Now at 73, even with glasses I can't see the front sight as well as then. Group size has suffered as a result. But, I still have my best results with tang peep and a Lyman 17A front with the flat post insert. I use this combo on a couple of Winchester 94s and my pistol caliber Low-Wall.
318792

I hunt without glasses which is fine if I'm using an appropriate optic on the gun ... by the time I got the glasses out of my pocket and cleaned off and on my eyes and the rifle aimed there'd be nothing to aim at ... any buck smart enuf to have lived long enuf to have a decent rack would be long gone

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Larry, I shoot the same bullet but not quite "Full Bore". I may need to up my load some to be able to use that sight picture. I tried a Unique load, and it grouped well but did not shoot to the sights in any position. I couldn't raise my sight far enough. I went to a 2400 load at about 1750 FPS, and it works well at the highest sight position but not using a 6 o'clock hold. I'll load a few at higher velocity with a rifle powder and check results.

Mike

If your factory rear sight has two screws on the rear of it it sounds like it is adjusted all the way down on the rear base. If so, loosen the two screws and slide it up. That will give you a considerable on target elevation increase. With the elevator slide set on the low notch you can zero at 100 yards using the sliding rear sight. Then you'll have full elevation adjustment left with the other notches.

[indian joe]

6 oclock hold is fine if you can do it
I spent a lot of time in the field with crosshair scopes and then went back to irons for my fun shooting - still struggle mightily through a match keeping 6 oclock -- I just wanna aim at what I need to hit ! ---keep drifting back to dead centre hold -- I get in the zone and muscle memory takes over - when I started shooting blackpowder thats what I did and its stuck with me since.

Visiting some friends on a ranch in Nebraska a few years back and they decided to have turkey for lunch - there was a mob of about 50 come out near the barn mid morning - so they hand me a nice little scope sighted 17 rimfire to do the harvesting - "wheres it hit?" ---"dead on where we are" ---- so we gonna eat this critter, I figure gotta head shoot him, "can we get a bit closer" (it was about 50 yards) --"nah they'll scoot back in the trees" ok so I wait till one is nice and still, head up, crosshair on his eye ---at the last instant I drop that down two inches and let it off - got him too - why do that? ----muscle memory or subconscious whatever -- back home the main glass sight rifle I have is a 22/250 thats sighted in two inches high at 100yards for some longer shots on 'roos (and occasional fox) anything in reasonable range needs to sight under for a hit -- in the last second my brain switched and I hit that turkey in the neck two inches under his eye - nobody told me aim for the big part so we sure we eat ........................

[Lloyd Smale]

Yup, right on Lloyd.....

Who needs the sights anyways....I can instinct shoot my ole winny thutty-thutty and hit a deer in the eye across a thousand yard canyon with the deer on a bounding run while I's at a full gallop with my trusty stead riding bareback and hangin injin style on the off side shootin under the steads neck....yup, who needs them sights anyways.......:guntootsmiley:

youd laugh larry but when i was a kid id go to camp with dad and the old timers would check thier zero for season by putting a paper plate up at 50 yards and if the hit it it was good enough. watched my dads buddy who hunted with an m1 carbine that he hand drilled hps into military ball ammo actual miss the plate and hit it the second time and said good enough. they used to laugh at him. he usually got his deer but never shot once. you knew who was shooting because it was 4 or 5 rounds about as fast as he could pull the trigger. gut wasnt poor either. he owned a popular bar in town and had a 700 06 and a ruger deerslayer 44mag with an old bushnell dot site on it but all he used was that m1 with a 15 round mag.

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, seen lots of those. As a LEO in NE Oregon I "put down" quite a few wounded critters during and after every hunting season just wounded by such "nimrods"......nothing funny there.....nor to brag about.

[FergusonTO35]

I know a gent who is a brilliant hunter and spends many hours scouting, putting out food plots and cameras, and building brush blinds by hand. His guns and ammo are a total afterthought. His main deer rifle is a Remington autoloader .270 with no-name scope in flimsy see-through mounts. I asked him and he honestly doesn't know what bullet weight it is sighted in with. The one time I saw him sight it in (to use the phrase loosely) he set up a pizza box at about 20 yards and fired one round into it. He looked at the impact, adjusted his scope some, and called it good. I guess the saving grace is, he seldom shoots at anything more than 30 yards away and is very patient. Still, I'm kind of amazed at how detail oriented he is about everything except his guns and ammo.

[braddock]

319433 Marble, works for me with 6 o'clock hold. It's a 92 btw, got a williams peep on my 94 30/30 had a red dot but suffer from astigmatism so sold it.
319434 94 is the one with the red dot on.

FWIW, off of a rest at 100 yards I got 2.5" 3 shot groups with cast boolits in the 30/30, nearer 6" offhand. If I'm lucky

[FergusonTO35]

My two 94's wear Lyman receiver sights and aftermarket fine bead front sights. I accept the fact that my realistic range without a scope is about 75 yards and reserve the 94's for thick woods duty. Which, they excel at due to their light weight, trim dimensions, and shotgun-like pointability.

[Bazoo]

I have a winchester 94, made in 1970. I have experimented to figure out what works for me, though at the 70 yard mark, not 100. I was getting around 4" groups, but by changing the sights and targets, I was able to get consistently around 1.5".

The stock rear sight was not conducive to accuracy, at least not when paired to my eyes. The round sighting notch was too large for the size of bead I have, with too much light on either side of and below the bead, and the notch part was not defined well enough from the "horns". I replaced it with a Marbles semi-buckhorn rear, which has a smaller notch. I then realized I do not care for the white diamond that the Marbles sight comes with, so I reversed the panel. Having an all black rear sight is much better.

I tried various sizes and styles of aiming points, but I have settled on a neon green square on a plain cardboard backer. 4" for 70 yards is what I found works for me, but I'd guess 6" or even 8" at 100 would be correct. Making the aiming point as large as you need to see it clearly is key to shooting decently.

[FergusonTO35]

Another problem with the Winchesters is so many of them have the sights clocked wrong or even have the dovetails pointing in different directions. There is no excuse for that kind of defect, period end of story.

[mnewcomb59]

You need to shoot at a bigger target. It is much easier to find the center of a trash can lid than it is to find the center of a 1" orange sticker. The center of both targets is the same size, but the larger target allows you FOCUS ON YOUR FRONT SIGHT AND LET THE TARGET BE BLURRY. This is how you shoot open sights. With your focus on the front sight. If you focus on the target your sight alignment isn't aligned.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm planning to spend serious trigger time making small groups with my .22's from field positions. My accuracy with sights ranges from ok to downright terrible from day to day. Building muscle memory is all I can think of to improve it. Yes, I am well within minute of deer to at least 150 yards with a scope no problem. But, I really enjoy shooting with sights and I want to get better with them. If I could become practiced enough to consistently make palm of the hand (I have big hands!) groups at 100 yards I would be very happy.

[BLAHUT]

I see folks say they are shooting 2-3'' groups at 100 yards with their model 94's. Mine is (Mid 80's vintage) accurate at shorter ranges but the front sight more than covers a complete rifle target at 100 yards and I can barely keep it on the paper. Based on accuracy at shorter range I know the rifle can do better. So, my question is, are the guys shooting accurately at 100 yards doing it with factory sights? If so, what sight picture are you using? If using aftermarket sights, what are you using?
I am going to participate in some cast bullet rifle competitions at my local range and need to be able to hit 100-yard steel targets if I do my part.

Thanks
Mike

You can try a double peep, peep in back and aperture in front; otherwise a peep in back and a fine front sight post.....
Or use a scope...

[WILCO]

I should say: any accuracy claim from me refers to shooting from a rest…..

With a proper stance, I do "Okay" offhanded.
Last Marlin lever action that I shot, was offhanded with iron sights and reloads.
50 yds. and front sight dead on got me hits.
Pumpkin on a stick brought me flying mud and an occasional connection.

[atr]

That sight picture that Larry posted is the one I use. My open sights on the 94 along with aging eyes limits my accurate shooting to around the 75 yard range, and shooting from the kneeling position. I have practiced at 100 yds but found that my groups, if you can call them that, are too large and I don't want to just wound a critter.
best atr

[redhawk0]

I had some issues with the open sites as well. I used a red fiber optic front site with a green double dot rear. It helped a lot for seeing the sites and helps keep things on target. I only shoot 50 yards open sites...I figure if I site in 1" high at 50 yards for the 30-30...I'll be just fine out to 100. I went with HiViz....I'm happy.

redhawk

[Texas by God]

I’m looking at “The Perfect Adapter”mount to put the Burris FF3 on my 94.
I’m still pondering it, though.
I made a rear sight mount but I think I’d like this one better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[firefly1957]

My grandfathers "94" is in ownership of the fourth generation when I was a teenager I could hit a pop can on the berm behind the 100 yard targets every time with the gun and a Williams receiver sight . My son has the gun today and I have another 30-30 a 1953 Marlin 336 it shoots groups under 2 inches at 100 yards with cast bullets and is scoped .

I have heard some weird and funny tales from old hunters I stopped doubting most of them when I saw them reproduce the results !
Lloyd Smale my grandfather was born in Calumet in 1898 he sometimes carried a M-1 out deer hunting a five round magazine in it and a 15 round in his coat pocket . He always used hunting ammo with 110 grain hollow points never full metal jacket ammo. That I know he never got a deer with it and I consider it to light for deer hunting . One of grandpa's friends took a lot of deer with a M-1 carbine none during season he cut wood for a living and deer would often approach close while the chain saw was running and he poached them ,turkeys and who knows what else!

[FergusonTO35]

One big problem for me is, it can be difficult to see exactly what spot I'm aiming at even with a six o' clock hold. My eyesight is still good enough to where I don't need glasses for most things, but it's pretty common that my groupings can jump around because I am aiming at a slightly different spot each time and don't realize it.

[Larry Gibson]

Back before my cataract surgery I was in the position of not being able to use the iron sights at all. Reason was with barrels shorter than 26" I just couldn't see the front sight clear enough to focus on it. With enough lens to see the front sight clearly the target was totally gone. I began converting my shorter barreled rifles to "scout" configuration. I quickly learned the proper mounting of the scope was vitally important to proper use, especially for hunting. Here is the M94 Carbine I got for my 14th birthday. Yes, it has been refinished as it rattled around behind the seat of my stepfather's PU for many years before my brother gave it back to me. Mechanically it was in excellent condition but just had a lot of dings, dents and scratches on the exterior. I've put a post front sight and a Lyman receiver sight on it along with a Burris 1.5X scout scope in the Burris scout mount made for the M94. With 125, 130, 150 or 170 gr commercial jacketed it will still put 8 shots (magazine capacity + 1 up the spout) into close to 1 moa to 1 3/4 moa depending on the bullets used. My top end load with a 311041 over LeveRevolution runs 2200+ fps and will stay inside 2 moa all day long whether I'm using the scope or the receiver sight which I can now use again after the cataract surger gave me 20/20 vision in my right eye.

[LAH]

OP use a big bull. Makes it much easier.

[FergusonTO35]

Back before my cataract surgery I was in the position of not being able to use the iron sights at all. Reason was with barrels shorter than 26" I just couldn't see the front sight clear enough to focus on it. With enough lens to see the front sight clearly the target was totally gone. I began converting my shorter barreled rifles to "scout" configuration. I quickly learned the proper mounting of the scope was vitally important to proper use, especially for hunting. Here is the M94 Carbine I got for my 14th birthday. Yes, it has been refinished as it rattled around behind the seat of my stepfather's PU for many years before my brother gave it back to me. Mechanically it was in excellent condition but just had a lot of dings, dents and scratches on the exterior. I've put a post front sight and a Lyman receiver sight on it along with a Burris 1.5X scout scope in the Burris scout mount made for the M94. With 125, 130, 150 or 170 gr commercial jacketed it will still put 8 shots (magazine capacity + 1 up the spout) into close to 1 moa to 1 3/4 moa depending on the bullets used. My top end load with a 311041 over LeveRevolution runs 2200+ fps and will stay inside 2 moa all day long whether I'm using the scope or the receiver sight which I can now use again after the cataract surger gave me 20/20 vision in my right eye.

Really nice rifle and setup you got there!

[FergusonTO35]

Well, I'm going with scopes on all my .30-30's. Rifle season is only 16 days and no reason to limit myself on distance or lighting. Even a 20mm objective with low magnification offers me way more realistic capability than sights. Still using sights on my .22's, .357 carbines, and AR's though!

[FergusonTO35]

Got my Weaver side mount in and put it on the 94. Works great once you figure out how much to offset the crosshairs so that they are straight when the caps are tightened down. HORRIBLE design I think, no telling how many hours I've spent over the years trying to get crosshairs straight with that type of ring. Otherwise, it fits me well and hopefully I can try it out soon. I really like how the sights are still useable, given I can still shoot them fairly well out to 50 yards.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I am also an advocate for bigger targets for certain iron sights withe size of the front sight and distance to target both considered. Some of the optic fiber sights are quite big, needing 6-8 inch squares at 100 yards for me. I make my targets from red or green copy paper, cut into squares, rectangles, whatever shape you like and can line up on. Having a target you can hold on consistently, even an 8.5x8.5 inch square can give those 2-3" groups you are looking for. Blacking the rear sight along with front on opens can also help, glare free is important.

[FergusonTO35]

My thing is, it's quite difficult to see exactly where I'm aiming even with a big bull and six o'clock hold beyond about 50 yards. With a scope I can see what spot I'm aiming at and time the "wiggles" just right to hit it. With the side mount, I can still use sights for up close and personal shots.

'Nother thing. The rear sight dovetail on my rifle is leaning to the left quite a bit, whereas the front sight base is almost perfectly straight. I think there is enough meat on the right hand side to carefully file a new and straight dovetail into it. Does this sound doable?

[ulav8r]

My thing is, it's quite difficult to see exactly where I'm aiming even with a big bull and six o'clock hold beyond about 50 yards. With a scope I can see what spot I'm aiming at and time the "wiggles" just right to hit it. With the side mount, I can still use sights for up close and personal shots.

'Nother thing. The rear sight dovetail on my rifle is leaning to the left quite a bit, whereas the front sight base is almost perfectly straight. I think there is enough meat on the right hand side to carefully file a new and straight dovetail into it. Does this sound doable?

Not likely, as you lower the right side to get it horizontal, the dovetail will become loose. If you don't go too far you might be able to peen( if you forget the n, autocorrect will accept the 3 letter word) the right side to move the shoulders down for a tight fit. 3 possible solutions if that doesn't work: 1. tig weld the dovetail and then recut 2. cut a flat and fill the area and then cut a new dovetail 3. cut a round bottom base to cover the dovetail and put a different sight on that would require a higher front sight.

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks. I'm taking it to a gunsmith who thinks he can straighten it out on friday.

[Tripplebeards]

My avatar is from my 1970 336 in 35 rem. I use a lee collet factory crimp collet die for an even crimp. I also sized my boolits at .3595". My barrel slugs at .357. I also polished and lightened my trigger to around 3 pounds or a hair less. I definitely use an optic. Had a 10x scope on it when load testing. Shot a 3 shot group at 200 yards right after my avatar group was shot. It measured 2.1"! It's a shooter for sure. I also PC and GC my boolits and keep them all within ONE grain of each other. I also use Smokes clear PC. Goes on smooth and like glass. Only PC I will use for rifle boolits. I switched my optic out for 2-7 leupold after load testing. Smaller optic looks better and I don't shoot more than 75 yards 99% of the time hunting. More like 40 and under.

[FergusonTO35]

Awesome!

[gumbo333]

Back a gazillion years ago when I was much younger and starting to deer hunt, many older farmers used open sighted 30/30’s and a few 32 Specials. They sighted in with big targets, like a dinner napkin. Back then “ minute of deer” for those guys was a 4 or 5 inch group at a hundred yards, their limit. They all did well hunting in the timbers and shelter belts. I was amazed. And yes some wore glasses with coke bottle lenses. It worked for them. I started with a scoped bolt rifle, port side REM 788 in 6mm. I also wore glasses for about 65 yrs. Not now. Memories.

[FergusonTO35]

Back a gazillion years ago when I was much younger and starting to deer hunt, many older farmers used open sighted 30/30’s and a few 32 Specials. They sighted in with big targets, like a dinner napkin. Back then “ minute of deer” for those guys was a 4 or 5 inch group at a hundred yards, their limit. They all did well hunting in the timbers and shelter belts. I was amazed. And yes some wore glasses with coke bottle lenses. It worked for them. I started with a scoped bolt rifle, port side REM 788 in 6mm. I also wore glasses for about 65 yrs. Not now. Memories.

That's how alot of hunters still are around here. Thing is, I would say many of them don't talk about how many deer they wounded and couldn't find. I think we should respect our game enough to make sure that every shot has the best possible chance of being quickly lethal. Minute of paper plate at 100 yards is probably good enough most of the time, but I think you should strive for better if you can. Or, limit yourself to closer range. I'm not one of those nerds who thinks you need well below sub-MOA just for hunting, but I do think you should put serious thought into the topic. I have decided I won't take any shots over 50 yards with sights because I am honestly too inconsistent beyond that distance without a scope.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have commented on this problem several times on this forum. The problem that is experienced here is about indexing the sights on the target. Leverguns are generally 2-3" guns however that can be improved with "repeatable sight indexing on the target."

The operative word is "Repeatable." If you don't index your front sight on the exact same place on the target every time your groups will grow larger with every shot.

Using a flat top Front Sight like an XS Whiteline Sight and indexing it on the bottom Point of a Diamond shaped Target Spot is the most precise way to do this. an Aperture Rear Sight is recommended. (Lyman or Redfield preferred.)

Also you are not going to be able to see it that well at 100 yards so you'd drop down to 50 and then go to 100 when your Zero is fully defined. Using a 6" Black Diamond on a White background is the way to go. Then you can index the Front Sight directly under the bottom point on the target, and put the point as close to the center of the flat on the front sight as is possible for you, without covering any of the target itself.

Obviously this has to be done using a Steady Rest so that you can take all the movement of the gun out!

Now one last thing. You need to hard Focus on the Front Sight. That is all that matters. You can't switch back and forth from the target to the sight to the peep and expect to be able to do it like when you were 13 years old.

If you are having trouble focusing on the front sight you can change the size of the Aperture on your rear sight until it is in focus. That's why they make different size holes in them.

Here's a pic of my guns. I have shot a 5 shot group at 100 yards with the .45-70 that measured 1 3/4" by using this technique.

One more last thing: If you can't see or focus on your Front Sight that is 3-4 feet away you need to go get some new glasses or have your prescription up dated. I recommend progressives adn tell the Opto Doc you need to be able to focus at less than 1 foot.

Randy

.

[FergusonTO35]

And therein lies the rub, I have alot of difficulty putting that front sight in the same place every time. For the time being I'm just going to stick with scopes on my centerfires for deer hunting.

[veeman]

Hard to aim at the same spot when the target keeps bouncing around, lol!

[HamGunner]

If the lever gun has a rear sight with a removable center insert, a "One Ragged Hole" peep can be inserted in it's place. Not as good as a receiver peep sight, but much, much better than the factory open top sights. A bright fiber optic front sight such as a "Fire Sight" in addition really helps as well.

That is the set up that I put on my 94 Winchesters about 10 years ago and I can now see to shoot even at almost 72 years young. In addition to the front fiber optic sight, I also leave on the front sight hood. I open up a couple of windows in the top of it with a dremel for extra light, but leave enough metal so the hood keeps it's protective function.

About five years ago I had a deer playing peek-a-boo with me at 50 yds. in the thick brush here in S. Missouri. All he presented me with was part of his head, so I let him have it right between the running lights with a Lyman 429215gc through my 94 Win. 44 mag. which had this sight set up on it. Without that Fire Sight and One Ragged Hole rear peep I would have had to pass on that shot.

A peep is very fast to use. Your brain automatically centers the front sight without a moment of thought. I also use the One Ragged Hole rear sight on my old Flat Top 44 mag. Blackhawk

[dtknowles]

Thanks, Jackpine, I think a sight change may be in order. I can shoot with decent accuracy out to 100 yards with the peep sights on my 03A3. The front on the 94 just completely covers any target at that range. I like the six o'clock hold option other than I run out of sight adjustment with my cast bullet loads. My jacketed loads hit higher, and I can probably make it work with those. The glasses thing, ya I am working through that now. Even so, the peeps on the 03A3 work for me so I think a sight change might help.

Just my observations fwtw. You target is too small for accuracy testing. A target that is almost completely covered by the front sight is perfect for accuracy testing as the sight picture should be the target showing as a ring around the bead of the front sight. An even better target would be a square that the front sight covers all but the corners of the target. When all you see is corners you are on target.
You cast bullet loads seem to be light. You should be able to duplicate factory ballistics with cast bullets w/gas check. You should be able to work up a load that has about the same point of impact (POI) as factory ammo.

For accuracy testing POI does not matter as long as you use a large target, meaning enough clean target paper so the bullet holes are on the paper. For accuracy testing the bullets don't have to be in the black they just need to be on the target so you can measure group size.

Peep/aperture sights are great if you need or prefer "iron" sights. Scopes are better for accuracy testing. I had a M94 that had a side mounted scope that let you still use the Iron Sights. That M94 was my first hunting rifle, I sold it and not sad. It would shoot 3" groups at 100 yards most times even with cast but never much better.

Tim

[FergusonTO35]

Spent some time with my Henry .45-70 single shot yesterday, it uses a barrel mounted folding leaf rear with a fiber optic front. I was reminded again about my 50 yard limitation. Out to 50 I can keep them within an inch or two and close to point of aim. Beyond 50 may as well hang it up. Some of the places I hunt you can't see anything beyond 30-40 yards, so the lightweight and compact little Henry slinging a big chunk of lead is a good choice.