Quiet 45-70 loads

[fixit]

I've noticed a number of threads on the 45-70, and got to wondering....has anyone fiddled with the idea of cat sneeze sound level loads that would consistently kill a deer up to 100 yards?

[HWooldridge]

Try keyword “collar button”. Lots of reading material.

[M-Tecs]

I would go the other way for something to kill deer out to a hundred yards. I would want bullets no less than 300 grains with the 400 and 500 being preferred. Some loads bellow.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?41737-quiet-45-70-load

[Larry Gibson]

W/o the use of a suppressor, nothing is going to be an effective "cat's sneeze" load that will be effective on deer out to 100 yards. Perhaps to 50 yards though. I push a 210 gr Rapine 460210 at 950 fps out of my TDs. Loaded over just 6 gr of Bullseye it is relatively quiet. However, it loses accuracy beyond 50 yards. My load with the 2750 gr Rapine 460250 over 8 gr Bullseye runs 1050 fps and would, indeed, be effective on deer at 100 yards. However, the noise level is similar to a 45 ACP out of a 5" pistol.

[Recycled bullet]

Get the longest barrel that you can and then test a bunch of different powders and bullets.

Sent from my moto g power (2022) using Tapatalk

[Sgt H]

I am going to agree with Larry on the cat sneeze load and deer, wrong tool for the job. That said I load 12 grains of Unique under a 300-350 grain boolit. These run 1100-1150fps and are pretty quiet out of my 26" 1886 and 30" Sharps. Use these for shorter range gong matches out to 250-300 yards. My load for deer is the Lyman/Gould hollow point, cast soft over 30 grains of 5744 and is very effective.

[fixit]

I was actually contemplating something along the lines of a 405 flat point at barely subsonic speed, a fast powder that will burn out in 32 inches, (Buffalo classic), and a near dead soft bullet. I've fiddled with cat sneezes in the thirty caliber range, but the idea of a big heavy bullet that doesn't make a big bang is intriguing. I'm not looking for silencer level noise, but something that doesn't rattle the whole forest!

[Larry Gibson]

Try starting with Unique at 8 gr and work up to 10.5 gr. No filler or wad.

[firefly1957]

I have not I do load a Lee R.E.A.L. 200 grain bullet sized .457" over 5 grains of Red Dot (+ filler) I get 850 f/s and tight 25 yard groups basically making it a .45 acp load to light for deer for my thinking. It does shoot point of aim at 25 yards with my Marlin sighted at 100 yards with modern hunting load .

IF for some reason I needed a heavy deer load that was quiet a heavy bullet at 1000 f/s would be a good choice but remember you are going to have a rainbow trajectory .

[GhostHawk]

Red Dot, 300 gr bullet and start at 10 grains and work down to 6 or so.

Going to have some rainbow, but it should do it and be fairly quiet.

I have shot a fair amount of .444marlin at 6.5 grains of Red Dot under a 240 gr cast and it is not near as loud as a full case of slower powder.

[technojock]

I'd love to have a Collar Button mold but they always seem to be out of stock when I can afford one...

[Good Cheer]

If I still had a 45-70 I'd try out this 460-236-SP.
Working my way around to using it in muzzleloaders instead.
318790

[Digital Dan]

Cat sneeze might be a matter of who hears what. 65 gr of Lord Black and a 500 grain bullet is not loud to the recipient if properly placed.

[Woodtroll]

Haha! I guess that could be true, especially if the distance was a couple hundred yards or more.

[elmacgyver0]

You need to buy a suppressor, buy it now and a year from now you can enjoy it.
I wish I had done it long ago, I didn't because of all the hype about them being removed from the NFA.
I finally realized that dog would never hunt, so I bought one that works on everything .45-70 on down.
Now I have two more in ATF jail.
Of course, if you are in one of the unlucky states, you're stuck.
There is always big bore PCP, but that may be loud too, I don't know, I have no experience with those.

[P Flados]

For fast powders, here is a sample of Quickload estimates. Note that I have the data sorted with lowest muzzle pressure on top.

Note also that I ran it at 1100 fps. Quickload has a problem finding a solution for some powders if the selected velocity is too low. To stay subsonic, you will probably need to drop charges between 1 and 2 gr. If I was doing this experiment I would start at say 0.5 below the charge shown and load a ladder down to find where the crack goes away. Then load say 0.2 grs below that to make sure individual rounds stay subsonic.




Bullet : .457, 405, LYM LFN 457193
Useable Case Capaci: 54.841 grain H2O = 3.561 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.550 inch = 64.77 mm
Barrel Length : 32.0 inch = 812.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps or 335 m/s
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N310 36.1 10.6 0.69 1100 100.0 22844 540 2.976
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star 57.8 14.6 0.94 1100 100.0 21938 540 3.003
Hodgdon Clays 44.3 10.7 0.69 1100 100.0 23604 544 2.945
IMR TrailBoss 85.5 14.6 0.94 1100 100.0 20663 547 3.020
Norma R1 44.9 11.5 0.74 1100 100.0 21220 560 3.003
Hodgdon TiteGroup 27.6 11.4 0.74 1100 100.0 19642 561 3.025
Accurate Solo 1000 39.0 10.9 0.71 1100 100.0 19309 564 3.024
Vihtavuori N320 37.1 11.0 0.71 1100 100.0 18608 564 3.065
Alliant RED DOT 41.1 10.3 0.67 1100 100.0 19541 570 3.032
Alliant GREEN DOT 38.3 10.8 0.70 1100 100.0 18148 575 3.055
Hodgdon HP38 27.3 11.5 0.75 1100 100.0 17255 576 3.084
Accurate Solo 1250 37.8 11.4 0.74 1100 100.0 16404 579 3.114
Accurate Nitro 100 37.6 9.9 0.64 1100 100.0 18310 581 3.050
Ramshot Zip 27.2 11.6 0.75 1100 100.0 16865 581 3.096
Shooters World Sparta 100 37.6 9.9 0.64 1100 100.0 18310 581 3.050
Winchester 231 30.3 11.6 0.75 1100 100.0 16865 581 3.096
Shooters World Clean Shot 25.2 10.7 0.69 1100 100.0 16596 584 3.093
Vihtavuori N330 34.5 11.4 0.74 1100 100.0 15848 590 3.151
Hodgdon Universal 33.8 11.0 0.71 1100 100.0 15621 598 3.142
Vihtavuori N340 34.4 11.5 0.75 1100 100.0 14109 608 3.198
Shooters World Ultimate Pistol 21.4 10.7 0.69 1100 100.0 14085 615 3.191
Accurate No.2 32.8 11.0 0.71 1100 100.0 13857 617 3.190
Alliant UNIQUE 33.1 10.8 0.70 1100 100.0 13173 629 3.241
Ramshot Silhouette 27.3 12.0 0.78 1100 100.0 12956 633 3.248
Winchester WAP 27.3 12.0 0.78 1100 100.0 12878 634 3.251
Alliant HERCO 35.9 11.4 0.74 1100 100.0 12045 655 3.303
Winchester 540 24.1 12.6 0.81 1100 100.0 11769 655 3.312
Ramshot True Blue 24.5 12.6 0.81 1100 100.0 11739 656 3.314
Hodgdon Longshot 24.7 12.5 0.81 1100 100.0 11563 661 3.329
Vihtavuori N350 33.3 12.3 0.80 1100 100.0 11398 665 3.345
Vihtavuori 3N37 31.6 12.3 0.80 1100 100.0 11207 673 3.362
Hodgdon HS-6 25.5 12.8 0.83 1100 100.0 11150 674 3.354
Accurate No.5 22.5 11.8 0.76 1100 100.0 10520 703 3.392
Shooters World Auto Pistol 22.5 11.8 0.76 1100 100.0 10512 704 3.393
Alliant POWER PISTOL 27.7 11.1 0.72 1100 100.0 9252 772 3.515

[Earl54]

Have a TC 45 cal. maxi ball mould, cast of stick on ww, seated flush, 5gr bullseye in a 18 inch 45/70 is pretty effective out to 50yds on 120ish pound deer and hogs. And its pretty quiet.

[gc45]

Have killed (cleanly) two deer with lung shots at around 100yrds using 330gr grain Gould cast boolits and 10 grains of Unique. Both deere made about 5-6 quick steps before falling over and were dead when I walked to them. I have a friend who has killed many deer using an 11gr load, we both use antique Winchester 1886 rifles with 26 inch octagon barrels. Of course boolit placement is critical and both of our rifles and loads are just that, accurate and concistant shot to shot. Our ammo is loaded using a toilet paper wad on the powder.

[Seeker]

One of my favorite and economical 45-70 loads is 12gr of Bullseye behind a rcbs 405 gr boolit at right around 1100 fps.

[MT Gianni]

Paco Kelly had a lot of cat sneeze loads. The key is heavy for caliber and long barrels. He expected the max range to be 20-25 yards usefulness. I don't think you're getting to 100 yards without a can.

[Larry Gibson]

Paco Kelly had a lot of cat sneeze loads. The key is heavy for caliber and long barrels. He expected the max range to be 20-25 yards usefulness. I don't think you're getting to 100 yards without a can.

Certainly not quietly.......

[BLAHUT]

I am going to agree with Larry on the cat sneeze load and deer, wrong tool for the job. That said I load 12 grains of Unique under a 300-350 grain boolit. These run 1100-1150fps and are pretty quiet out of my 26" 1886 and 30" Sharps. Use these for shorter range gong matches out to 250-300 yards. My load for deer is the Lyman/Gould hollow point, cast soft over 30 grains of 5744 and is very effective.

In my 45/70 guide gun for big bears; I load a LEE 515 gr pure lead bullet over 27 grs of 5744, about 1200 FPS; not quiet but very effective......
In my 45/60 I load a LEE 500 gr pure lead bullet over 11 grs of unique; very accurate; somewhat quiet; puts deer down like right now...
Quiet is subjective ?? A .22 LR is quiet and will put deer down at 100 yds; not the best choice though ??

[popper]

Remember that the gasses at the muzzle are 1 1/4 x the bullet fps. Unless really slow you still get the shock wave.

[rodbolt55]

Try Trail Boss. Not being familiar with your caliber I can tell you about my experience with .41 swiss vetterli. 300 gr cast with WW. 13 gr trail boss. chronographed at 15 ft was 1150 FPS. battle sight at lowest it shot 16" high at 100 yds. My daughter was embarresd at the range. Big old long military rifle, sounded like a high powered air rifle. I have used trail boss loads with lead and jacketed for about 15 different old military stuff from 6.5 swiss to .43 dutch. that powder simply does not go BANG, it goes puff. I even stepped my .41 swiss loads to 16 gr max,chrono went to 1250, still sounded like an air rifle. But I have found Trail Boss works well with a lot of old black powder cartridge weapons.

[TNsailorman]

I don't think "quiet" and the 45-70 go together even with can on the end of the barrel. Unless you are deaf to start with. james

[pls1911]

12-15 grains of Unique pushing an RCBS 300 or Ranch Dog 350 is danged quiet out of a 34” Sharps, and accurate to boot. Deadly at my normal range… under 100 feet.
Shorter barrel guide guns are equally accurate with this load, but report is a bit more like a 45 Colt.

[nanuk]

I have not I do load a Lee R.E.A.L. 200 grain bullet sized .457" over 5 grains of Red Dot (+ filler) I get 850 f/s and tight 25 yard groups basically making it a .45 acp load to light for deer for my thinking. It does shoot point of aim at 25 yards with my Marlin sighted at 100 yards with modern hunting load .

IF for some reason I needed a heavy deer load that was quiet a heavy bullet at 1000 f/s would be a good choice but remember you are going to have a rainbow trajectory .

Using the trajectory tables, the 45/70 is easily PBR to 100yds using an 8" kill zone. surprised the heck out of me the first time I ran them.

JBM:
Barnes 300gr FNSP w/.227G1
1000fps
(my 45/70 shorty is scoped, longer ones use irons) Sight above bore 0.7"
worse case temp/pressure: no wind... at 100 yds, it makes little effect
assume gun capable of 2" groups at 100yds (makes easy maff)
Using an 8" kill zone, I calculate where the bullet is never more than 4" above/below POA (gives me close to real world trajectory)
MRT: 50yds
ZERO: 88yds
MaxPBR: 99yds 877fps/512fpe

I doubt any deer can withstand a center chest shot w/300gr .458 877fps

with a big heavy boolit, there's no issue with penetration

as for quiet? Noise levels are in the ear of the beholder!
If the gasses are 1.25 above, and you want to reduce any supersonic: use 800fps
MRT: 42yds
ZERO: 73yds
MaxPBR: 81yds
100Yds: up to 8" below POA
(still using my 2" grouping and 8" kill zone)

everything gets better with heavier boolits, warmer temps, higher sights, better accuracy...

my closest neighbour is over 500m away, I know nothing is silent, but I would like it at least not so noisy as to make them think "Home Invasion"
my longest shot would be under 50 yds.
I think a 420gr boolit at 750-800 would work just fine for my needs

[fixit]

Thank you, guys...... this is the line of discussion I was hoping for! Keep it up!

[glaciers]

Interesting thread. Most posts here are dealing with the report of the rifle with a given load.
Question I have is how good of a killer would a 300 - 310 grain soft lead slug be at a muzzle velocity of 800 - 850 fps with in 25 - 30 yards.

[HWooldridge]

Interesting thread. Most posts here are dealing with the report of the rifle with a given load.
Question I have is how good of a killer would a 300 - 310 grain soft lead slug be at a muzzle velocity of 800 - 850 fps with in 25 - 30 yards.

That's basically a 45 Colt load with a heavier than standard slug - I should think it would kill most anything on two or four legs...

[MT Gianni]

Interesting thread. Most posts here are dealing with the report of the rifle with a given load.
Question I have is how good of a killer would a 300 - 310 grain soft lead slug be at a muzzle velocity of 800 - 850 fps with in 25 - 30 yards.

I think it would be death on 120 lb whitetails. I don't know how it would rate on 250 lb game or greater weights.

[fixit]

The more I think about it, the more likely I'd be going with a 400 grain or more flat point for penetration and b.c.. The longer slug should retain velocity better, even with a flat point. Oh, how my shooting budget would go up if I had a more accessible area to shoot!