Occasionally key holeing and crappy accuracy

[jtwodogs]

Been hand loading and making bullets for years. But I'm having a special problem with a g21 and kkm barrel
Shooting a 230 gr. Swc out of my lee mold. Oal is right, lube is right. Getting occasional key holeing and crappy accurracy. Know this load works with jacketed bullets 5 grs. Hp38 like ringing a bell. Could my alloy be to soft?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

what's the boolit diameter?
What's the kkm barrel groove diameter?

[jtwodogs]

Lead bullet after sizing is .452, jacketed is .451.
Hodgdon reloading manual has same specs for jacketed and lead. Have not slugged my barrel. The reason I asked about alloy softness when I started you could drop a bullet on laminate flooring and cause a flat place, those I even had an occasional going into battery issue
So I re did a batch with added solder. These at least go into battery and accuracy did improve a little but still crappy and the occasional key hole. Don't have a brinnel tester. Never slugged a barrel

[waksupi]

Bullet is too small. Find a fatter one.

[Dusty Bannister]

Perhaps you can tell us what the source of your lead is? That will help us guess about the alloy hardness. Tin alone does not do a lot to increase hardness, but if you have been making bullets for years, you already know that. But then you would also know how important it is to have an idea how hard the alloy is as well... Pure lead? Lead pipe and soldered joints? Roof flashing? Clip on WW? Mystery metal completely unknown?

[jtwodogs]

Wheel weights mostly, but a mixed bag of whatever could be scrounged. I know my .450 marlin bullets are as hard as a politicians heart. Somewhere in there I've gotten some soft stuff. I know tin will not do it but wondering if if add enough 60/40 solder that's seems pretty hard if that would do it

[243winxb]

Diameter and/ or BHN not correct. Adding Rotometals linotype fixes both.

[405grain]

Slug the barrel and know for sure. If you need a fatter bullet powder coating can bump up the diameter a little bit. If you were shooting undersized bullets the gas blow by could have given you some barrel leading. Check your barrel to see if it had streaks of leading in the bore. If it does, use the search function on this site to hear about good ways to remove it. Barrel leading will cause crappy accuracy.

[M-Tecs]

One more possibly is the brass is sizing the bullet down. Pull one and check.

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot a ton of cast bullets [185-235 gr] in a multitude of 45 ACP handguns, subguns, SSs, semi-auto rifles and several bolt guns. All of them were sized .452 or .451. Never had any leading or keyholing. It's either the alloy or the lube.

Try COWWs + 2% tin. Let AC 14 days before sizing or loading. If WQ'd wait 2 days/48 hours.

If you're getting leading what makes you think the "lube is right"?

[jtwodogs]

Pretty sure it the softness. Just don't want to break down and buy the rotometal 30% antimony alloy by the time you pay for you could buy jacketed bullets. Lube was tumble lube alox always used it before with no problem. Think if I do try it again I will use powder coat

[jtwodogs]

Broke down and bought a bar from rotometal of 30% antimony.
Right now I can barely scratch a bullet I'm throwing with my finger nail. Wonder how much of the bar I should add per lee melting pot. I want a hard bullet just for accuracy. Not worried about its terminal ballistic performance.

[Dusty Bannister]

It is a common practice to check your load data from more than one reference. Lyman 47th reloading handbook shows the max load for the 230 grain LRN bullet at 5.0 grains of HP-38 and the max load for the Similar weight jacketed bullet as 5.3 grains HP-38. Your reloading experience would suggest that you back off your current load and work up to the accurate load that will cycle your slide. Since you are a long time reloader, you probably know that the cast bullet should be a minimum of .001" larger than groove diameter and possibly .002" larger. Using the actual barrel chamber for a gauge, drop a loaded round into the barrel with the muzzle pointed vertically down and it should fall into place. Then invert the barrel and it should fall out of it's own weight. This is the plunk test. While LLA does work as a bullet lube, it is not always the best choice in all barrels. If you have any soft wax lube, apply with your fingers to a sample and shoot for groups after you have adjusted your powder charge and see if that clears up the key holing.

[jtwodogs]

Doing the "plunck" test after I initially had problems going into battery. Yeah I may back off a little but recoil with the 5 grains was super mild. Most of my years experience reloading has been with jacketed. I'm just wondering also about the match chamber of the kkm vs stock barrel. May not be that much difference.

[jtwodogs]

I was going with the 5 grains because of all the literature I read about reproduction of military hard ball round sans the bullseye powder which seems to be scarce as hens teeth

[jtwodogs]

I also noticed when I dropped the slide on a live round and then ejected it, there was the faintess mark of a semi circle ring right at the edge of the bullet brass intersection. I have loaded it shorter than the recommended 1.2 oal, and still get it. I'm wondering if I need to go even shorter ie right at the base of the trunk. Right now ther is probably 1/16th of an inch showing.

[243winxb]

The sized bullets diameter should be a tiny bit smaller in diameter to fit the barrels fhroat.

Take a soft, large diameter , unsized bullet and with the barrel out of the gun, tap bullets into throat & muzzle. Measure.

Like this 9mm. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/lee356-120-tc-slugged-barrel-of-taurus-g3c-9mm-luger.3610/full

9MM Tapped in to throat.https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/free-bore-throat-diameters-in-9mm-luger.3612/full

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If you are using this boolit with Lee's tumble lube and shooting it with a near MAX load, even in the low pressure 45acp, you'll probably gonna have problems. I've only had luck with that boolit with slow loads.

https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-tl452-230tc

I think your issue is a combination of boolit design, lube, and load.
Good Luck.

[jtwodogs]

Yeah I'm actually using the other lee designed. 45, but I think your right.

[Larry Gibson]

Would help greatly to know specifically which Lee bullet and what lube?

[jtwodogs]

[https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-452-230tc
Lee alox "Mule Snot"

[243winxb]

Link dont work. Pick a number.:popcorn:

Now it works #7


Large BB- SOFT lead, = Skidding at muzzle.


How is the crown on the muzzle of this new barrel. Cut square?

[jtwodogs]

Crown seems to be perfect. Never had a problem with kkm barrels (new). As I mentioned previously it shoots jacketed bullets lights out.

[Dusty Bannister]

Is this the first straight wall Semi-auto pistol cast bullet reloading experience? Since I am understanding that you chose to use the same powder charge for the cast bullet as used for the jacketed bullet, did you change the taper crimp when you changed from Jacketed. If you did not, there is a lot less resistance with cast lead and you will result in over crimping and that reduces the bullet diameter no matter what you started with.

What is the micrometer reading at the case mouth on your cast bullet reload? Cast bullets play by different rules than jacketed bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

[https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-452-230tc
Lee alox "Mule Snot"

Been using that bullet for the last few years in my own M1911, P14 and S&W revolver. Also, in my 2 Uberti SAs in 45 Colt and one with an additional 45 ACP cylinder. It also shoots quite well in my 45 Colt M1873 rifle and a M98 Mauser in 45 ACP. I've no problems with keyholing nor do I get any leading. All the bullets have been sized .452. My standard 54 ACP load with that bullet is 5 gr of Bullseye which is pretty similar to your load.

I suspect a bit harder alloy will help with the keyholing.

As to the leading, while I do not use LLA on that particular bullet, I do use LLA on other similar cast bullets. Are you using the LLA as per Lee's instructions? The key is to use a light coat that just give the bullet a golden hue. Then let that coat dry thoroughly before sizing. the second coat should also be a light coat and, again, let dry thoroughly.

[jtwodogs]

The more I talk about it, and the more input I get I'm almost convinced it's a hardness issue. At least that's first on the list to change of the list of variables.if

[dondiego]

Broke down and bought a bar from rotometal of 30% antimony.
Right now I can barely scratch a bullet I'm throwing with my finger nail. Wonder how much of the bar I should add per lee melting pot. I want a hard bullet just for accuracy. Not worried about its terminal ballistic performance.

I have had the best accuracy from softer bullets in the 45 ACP. Why do you insist on such hardnes?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The more I talk about it, and the more input I get I'm almost convinced it's a hardness issue. At least that's first on the list to change of the list of variables.if

well, time to buy some alloy. Let us know how it works out for your gun.

[TurnipEaterDown]

...
Right now I can barely scratch a bullet I'm throwing with my finger nail. ....

Puzzled by the "too soft" comments.

Of course, the testing method is rather uncorrelated, and clues on reloading process are almost nonexistent.

If you find that your accuracy does not improve w/ hardening the bullet, look into your loading setup - such as dies used, bullet size, seating, etc. What goes in isn't necessarily what comes out (in a manner of speaking).
If you are seating a cast bullet significantly larger in diameter than jacketed, and using dies for jacketed, you could be introducing issues in size, alignment, base damage, etc.

BTW: Common Binary Solder. The first number is Tin, second Lead for common solder. 60/40 -- 60% Tin, 40% Lead. Adding this is just adding Tin.

[bruce381]

do you use a lee factory crimp die? I have found for me they size DOWM my .4525 bullets to less than .451 = keyholes

[muskeg13]

STOP! Everybody is too kind. Why are you adamant against slugging your bore? Claiming to be a reloader and caster for a while, you should know how critical the bore diameter is to achieving accuracy with cast bullets. Don't waste everybody's time, including your own, speculating what the problem is until you slug your bore. If your bore to bullet dimensions are right, then, you can zero in other potential problems with lube and alloy hardness.

[fredj338]

Barrels can be funny. I have a BHP that is very accurate with jacketed & HP38/W231. When I tried it with equiv lead bullet, really crappy accuracy. Switching to Unique, shot better than the jacketed.
I have a friend that cant get his lead bullets to shoot well in his Glock using TG. With several other powders his accuracy is exc.
Try pulling a loaded bullet & measure, see it you are not sizig down during seating & crimping.
FWIW, I dont slug bores. I haev too many guns in the same caliber to bother with diff loads. I have never had accuracy issues with 0.001" or 0.002" over jacketed. That is 95% handgun loads.

[gwpercle]

Check your bore size ... it ain't rocket science , If I can slug a barrel anyone can slug a barrel .

Make sure your boolit isn't getting sized down when seating ...factory crimp dies will do it and taper crimping too much will do it and ...be sure and expand the case for a cast bullet with a M-die type ( NOE type expander is best) expander .
Even if the boolit is the correct size ... it can get squeezed down smaller during loading ... make sure this isn't happening .
Pull down one of your loaded rounds , use an inertia puller , and measure the boolit diameter... is it the right size .
Boolit size beats boolit hardness Seven Ways to Sunday ... I shoot 9mm luger and 45 acp with a 50-50 mix COWW and scrap lead , which has a bhn of only 8-9 with good accuracy and no leading ... But I go the extra mile to make sure the boolits don't get swaged down while loading .
Gary

[jimb16]

90% of the time, leading is caused by undersized bullets, not by soft lead UNLESS the velocity is just TOO HIGH. I find that unlikely. Slug the barrel. Size the cast bullet 1-2 thousandths larger. Make sure you expand the cases properly and bell or step the case mouth (M-die). Seat the bullet and use the absolute minimum crimp that you can get away with; preferably a slight roll crimp or very slight taper crimp. Your problem should disappear.

[hermans]

I've shot a ton of cast bullets [185-235 gr] in a multitude of 45 ACP handguns, subguns, SSs, semi-auto rifles and several bolt guns. All of them were sized .452 or .451. Never had any leading or keyholing. It's either the alloy or the lube.

Try COWWs + 2% tin. Let AC 14 days before sizing or loading. If WQ'd wait 2 days/48 hours.

If you're getting leading what makes you think the "lube is right"?

What Mr Gibson said......

[wv109323]

I don't think it is lead hardnes in the .45 acp. Soft swaged bullets work quite well in the .45 acp. One sure way to determine if it is lead hardness is back the load down to around 4.4 g. If you still get keyholes it is not lead hardness.
First thing I would look at is bullet diameter after seating. About all die manufacturers do not expand the case mouth enough for cast boolits.
A taper crimp of .469 to .470 is needed for best accuracy.

[popper]

Bullet size. Probably just undersize and you get some leading till it gets shot out. Tumbling bullet caused by undersized (lots of leading strips), poor accuracy til the leading gets shot out, rinse and repeat.

[jtwodogs]

Well I got my kkm barre⁷l back recut the chamber and throated for mne.
I still have to shorten oal to 1.82 to get it to ka-plunck in the chamber which I think is more a factor of my heavy powder coat. So I have dropped the load to 4.5 of hp38 on my 230 gr. Tc lee bullet. No more key holeing accuracy has improved but still have some flyers. No leading, barrel clean as a pin. Don't have a chronograph, but recoil feels substantial, assuming the shorter oal has increased the pressure.
I believe I increased the hardness by adding some high antimony from a bar I ordered from rotometal.

[Dusty Bannister]

Changing more than one thing at a time will only add to your confusion. So did you seat the bullet too long and then seat deeper until the case rim was even with the barrel hood, or did you keep crimping until the cartridge dropped freely in and out of the chamber when the barrel was turned from muzzle down to muzzle up.

[fredj338]

I doubt its bullet hardness. I shoot range lead with good accuracy but never used Alox. Now I only shoot PC bullets, alloy is even less of an issue but I still look for BHN8-9 for 45. Load a bullet then pull it & measure the as loaded dia & see if it is sizing down when seating.

[charlie b]

I suspect it was undersized. Adding PC increased the size enough to fit properly. I will guess that you did not size them after application of the powder coat. If this is the case then the fliers could simply be bullets where the PC was not as thick.

Try the bullets as they come out of the mold and don't size them. Just lube and shoot. FWIW, the Lee molds were designed such that they would produce proper size bullets using WW alloy. For a couple decades I used the .45 bullets (RN, SWC and TC) without sizing. Cast, pan lube and fired.

[jtwodogs]

They were sized after PC with lee sizing die to .452
I tried lee lube (Alox), even using the smallest amount a drop less than the size of a pea for 50 bullets let dry for ever. Could not get rid of the tacky feel. Like the stuff would never dry, have used it for years before PC never had that, problem even cut with some mineral spirits still tacky. That's why I went back to PC.

[jtwodogs]

200 grain rim rock. 5.2 grains of hp38, loaded to 1.2 oal.
Problem solved!
10 shots at 33 yds off a rest 7 in a 2 inch circles with the other 3 just outside of 2 inches attribute those to shooter error.

[jtwodogs]

I believe the problem I was having with the bullet I cast was to thick of a powder coat.
KKM kinda confirmed my suspicions when they sent my barrel back after a custom throat job of which they charged me nothing. Can't say enough about that company. They do a number 1 job on their barrels and will go the extra mile to make sure your happy with your barrel.

[jtwodogs]

I want to thank everyone that has posted helpful comments on here. I usually find this site of great Help with the exception of muskeg13.
I did not slug my barrel for the simple reason that it came from KKM a precision barrel manufacturer everybody can make a mistake, but the chances of a barrel leaving their shop with a bore size not to spec. Was highly unlikely.

[Dusty Bannister]

Well, sorry that you felt it necessary to slap someone trying to help. I would have made the same suggestion given the steps in the process to be made. The process in finding a solution is to do the easy (cheap) steps first. I suspect your comment will result in fewer offering reasonable suggestions in the future. Consider an apology.