Lever Action/PCC Competition?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hi Folks

I’m looking to put together a competition at my club.

I would like to figure it out around Lever Guns/PCCs so I can keep the tactical timmies that shoot the steel challenge matches involved.
I’m thinking this would be a little more about accuracy than speed.
Keep different classes for irons/optics.

We have or can get some plate racks. We have plenty of static steel

What are you guys seeing/shooting at your ranges?
Maybe plate racks at 100 and 200? Pretty challenging but not impossible. I don’t want it so everyone hits 6/6 and the one guys that misses loses that string

I figure falling steel is easier to keep track on. We can sets a reasonable time limit or set a cartridge/magazine limit. 6 plates 10 rounds. All the time you need. Or 6 plates 2 minutes all the ammo you need.

Any suggestions? Things I’m not thinking of?
This is all new to me. I just want a new match that lets me shoot my lever gun more and keeps the PCC guys in there to fill it up and make $ for the club to pay for more steel.

Thanks in advance.

[waksupi]

For one, I would specify full power loads.

[jdgabbard]

Well, if you're scoring on time that is going to create a vacuum pulling towards the PCCs. Lets face it, an AR9 is much faster than a Winchester 92 or Henry Leveraction. Same with a Ruger PC9 vs a Levergun. So if that's your intent you might as well just put together a PCC match. Which is likely too similar to other styles of matches to garner much interest. But, if you did have different classes based on irons/optics, and possibly the style of the rifle, that might be interesting.

I had thought about something similar a while back, a Cold War Battle Rifle Match. No ARs / AKs, but instead M1s, M14s, FALs, G3s/CETMEs, SKS, etc... Essentially the Course of fires similar to a Qual Range, Known Distance Range, and the likes...

I think what you're thinking of could work, but at the very lease you'll have to break those with semi-autos into a separate class that is penalized to keep things fair. It's doable.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Full power loads are going to be a must to knock the plates down at that distance.

I think I’m going to try to keep it to a distance that will really make it more about accuracy than about speed. Time is just going to put a limit so we don’t have shooters taking 10 minutes to make 6 shots.

[Tim357]

For one, I would specify full power loads.

^^^^^^^this^^^^^^

[dverna]

There is no need for separate lever action and PCC's if you structure it as say 10 rounds in 10 minutes for 6 plates.

For the "shoot-off" go to 8 rounds in 8 minutes for 6 plates.

Then 6 rounds in 6 minutes for 6 plates.

If there is still no outright winner, you keep going...6 in 6 until someone wins.

[rintinglen]

Lever Action Silhouette runs 5 animals in 2 minutes. Make your course 6 plates in 2 minutes and not much would change. Except maybe the shape of the plates.

[Michael J. Spangler]

There is no need for separate lever action and PCC's if you structure it as say 10 rounds in 10 minutes for 6 plates.

For the "shoot-off" go to 8 rounds in 8 minutes for 6 plates.

Then 6 rounds in 6 minutes for 6 plates.

If there is still no outright winner, you keep going...6 in 6 until someone wins.

I wouldn’t separate them. I would only do optics and iron sights divisions.


Lever Action Silhouette runs 5 animals in 2 minutes. Make your course 6 plates in 2 minutes and not much would change. Except maybe the shape of the plates.

That might be easy. I would just want to rest run it and see at which distance it becomes a challenge. 100 for irons and 200 for optics or something. Though running it like DVerna said we could do more of an elimination/head to head. Even the good guys drop shots after a while.

[dverna]

I don't know anyone who can hit an 8" plate at 200 yards offhand consistently. Make it too difficult and the fun factor suffers.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Not sure it’s going to be 200. Maybe 100 and 200. Maybe 200 for optics.
I’m thinking of having it shot from standing/seated/prone

[BLAHUT]

You saying accuracy ?? But in reality, you are talking hits ?? You want accuracy it will need to be done on paper ?? This is shot for points; Easy to determine high score; Hits make it tough ?? 6 guys hit 6 plates; now who won ??? There would need to be a sudden death shoot off that could take much time with any good shooters involved ?? What ever position you want, must be the same across the board for all; iron sights ? scopes ? only lever guns; shoot with lever guns; AR platform; all shoot AR stile; bolt guns; only with bolt guns ? Caliber specific ?? All in standing; all in sitting; ECT; Any competition is good.... Separating the good shooters will be challenging ??? Shoot 600 yds, all 10 in the X ring, you; 9 in the X ring and one in the 9 ring, you just took second; no question ??

[M-Tecs]

Make the time limits generous enough so it's not a speed event. Make the targets challenging enough that a clean it very rare. Make it a shooting contest not a running contest.

Self-setting targets really speed things up for target reset and don't run the staff ragged. If you want to include speed include it in the target like the 5 plate spinners or dueling tree targets.

For the lever guns pistol cartridges only? Having a target the falls of a 38 Special or 9mm yet stands up to a 30/30 or 308 is a challenge. Savage 99's OK? How about Henry/BLR's in 7mm Rem Mag etc.?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Make the time limits generous enough so it's not a speed event. Make the targets challenging enough that a clean it very rare. Make it a shooting contest not a running contest.

Self-setting targets really speed things up for target reset and don't run the staff ragged. If you want to include speed include it in the target like the 5 plate spinners or dueling tree targets.

For the lever guns pistol cartridges only? Having a target the falls of a 38 Special or 9mm yet stands up to a 30/30 or 308 is a challenge. Savage 99's OK? How about Henry/BLR's in 7mm Rem Mag etc.?


You nailed what I’m looking for. By accuracy I do mean hits like the comment above. I don’t mean bug hole groups. I mean targets far enough way to make the challenging but not impossible.

I would restrict it to pistol calibers only. We don’t need holes in our steel ��

I would rather see the average shooter hit 4 plates and only the best hits 6.
If we’re not timing the stages then it really needs to be a head to head elimination.

[dverna]

One suggestion for resetting targets. You should be able to find someone with a golf cart, UTV or ATV. Makes the 100 yards melt away.

I use my Kawasaki Mule if doing a lot of group shooting at 100 yards or 200 yards.

[imashooter2]

How many people are you expecting? 6 plates in 6 minutes for 50 shooters is a long match. A 10 man squad has every man standing around idle for an hour plus the time for shooters to make lever guns ready and reset steel 200 yards away. ATVs could make reset go faster, but it will still add time. Not many people are going to be overjoyed spending 6+ hours to shoot 36 plates. This is why most falling steel matches are drag races at 10 yards.

[Michael J. Spangler]

How many people are you expecting? 6 plates in 6 minutes for 50 shooters is a long match. A 10 man squad has every man standing around idle for an hour plus the time for shooters to make lever guns ready and reset steel 200 yards away. ATVs could make reset go faster, but it will still add time. Not many people are going to be overjoyed spending 6+ hours to shoot 36 plates. This is why most falling steel matches are drag races at 10 yards.


We might keep it shorter too. I need to some scenarios. The other option is to see if the club wants to spring for a line of silhouette steel for cowboy rules and let the PCC guys run it too.

[imashooter2]

More thoughts…
2 minutes per array and ATVs to do resets would probably get 10 man squads through 6 stages in 2.5-3 hours. That’s a reasonable day and should get the match staff home for Christmas.

4 divisions, lever gun irons, lever gun optics, open iron sights and open optics would limit the grousing about how his is inherently faster/more accurate than mine.

I’d suggest total time as the tie breaker to avoid the potential of competitors running out of ammunition or light shooting over and over hoping the other guy misses. A single timed array as a tie breaker could work and might be more aligned to your vision. The tie breaker array needs staff to tally scores immediately to determine need. Total time allows staff to take their time and make sure they get it right.

Are you going to have prizes? Trophies? Cash payouts? Meat? Most matches I go to return 50% of the entry fees via Lewis Class. Cash payouts let you score at your leisure and mail checks. Lewis Class encourages participation by folks that know they are just hacks in the pack.

[imashooter2]

Sorry, I’m intrigued by this and thoughts keep coming to me…

How about a variety of stages? 50 yard offhand, large or small plates, doesn’t matter. Hundred yard prone with 6 or 8 inch plates. Hundred yard offhand with full size poppers.

Check with local USPSA clubs to see if you can borrow or rent steel. They probably already have poppers and some larger stuff. Any 3 gun clubs in the area?

[Michael J. Spangler]

I think my club would just buy some steel. They did it for the steel challenge matches.
We usually beg some door prizes from local gun shops and take donations so there’s a chance to have something at the end.
I always liked the idea of a 50/50 side match. We used to do a friendly one at my last club for the holidays. One battery powered “candle” at 50 yards. $1 a shot with a model 10 smith 4”
Whoever hits the light gets the bank.

If we ran $2 a shot and made it something fun and very challenging you could get the egos to line up one after another to watch that target get missed. The chop bustin would really fuel it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

All the Silhouette Shoots I go to are 5 shots in 2 minutes, Reset Targets, and then reload and do it again for two more minutes. 6 shots on a plate rack in 2 minutes is not asking that much with a rifle and you only get 6 shots to do it, no do overs because there would be no way to Keep Score. 6 shots, either hit them or not. Perfect score is 6/6. Do 4 stages of 12 shots at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards. (48 shots total) These are the same distances as Rimfire Silhouette, I have shot 31/40 with my Open Sighted Mauser .22 and the Silhouette Targets range from about 2-3" for Chickens, to about 4x6" for the Rams. Silhouette Targets are designed to all "look like" the same size at the different yardages, so plate racks will look smaller the further you get from them. Still a 8" plate at 100 yards with a rifle is very doable and far from Impossible. If everyone, or many people, get a perfect score you need to make it harder or you don't have a competition.

Oh and one last thing,,, This is all Shot Offhand,,, standing up on your hind legs like a Man!

Our Club has Long Range Silhouette, and Rimfire Silhouette., We used to do Short Range Silhouette 50,100,150, and 200M for rifles shooting cast boolits only until the guy who ran it moved to Colorado so it went by the wayside.. I have shot both my Marlin .44 and .45-70, and my .30-06, and .303 Brit in that game which is my Favorite, and I shot my best Silhouette score ever with my #4 Mk1 Enfield at 32/40. My best score ever in Long Range was 12/40 and that was a long time ago now I hoping for maybe 3-5/40.

So that's what we do,,, When our range is open, which it hasn't been since Jan 10 this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Cal Trans !!!

Randy

[Michael J. Spangler]

I like that idea Randy. I would love a set of silhouette targets but I think we need to work on some berms on the range before we can get more steel.
Keep the ideas coming!

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I would just play silhouettes , the target size sets the difficulty 40,60,77,100 meters is common we sued to do it muzzle loader , 22 pistol and 22 rifle

and of course Shutzen style (standing no supports)

30 seconds a target max time or they will sit and try and wait out the wind

45lc , 44 spl , 38 spl , 9mm, 40s&w and 45acp

agree keep the time short or people will try and wait out the wind and the event will take all day 5 rounds in 2 minutes is way more than fair

you could run it on a composite time vs score to get the PCC guys to want to play that could really speed it up

[Baltimoreed]

Full power loads will be an issue unless you build a ballistic pendulum to measure them. It’s hard to score a match with different guns. I shoot a ZSA 2gun monthly with the majority of shooters using ARs and 9mms. I’ve shot it with a 625 smith revolver, 45 PCCs, an 03 Springfield, another shooter used a garand and 1911 for one match. Theres been a couple AKs too. If I had a lever gun in 45acp I would try it out there. I like the way cas does it, your time is your score plus time for misses.

[imashooter2]

With pistol calibers at over 50 yards, full power loads will be self policing… the steel won’t fall reliably with gamer loads.