When did casting get like this ?

[Wolfdog91]

So something I found interesting is how limitations on cast bullets have happened. The current thing seems to be you cant' or shouldn't push a cast rifle bullet past 2000fps. However while looking through the Lyman cast bullets hand book 3rd edition from the 80's. Well..... not saying you need to push them at jacketed velocity but it's certainly more possible then most try to make it seem. Also must say it seems something happened where casting seems to have been dumbed down a little .Reading though this manual vs new stuff.... seems a lot is left out as far as casting for HV rifle and getting accurate loads. Iean the newest stuff I've seen in print about cast rifle loading basically says 1800fs to 2000fps is what your gonna max out on and you might get half dext accuracy, live with it. Mean while the older stuff it's telling you how you COULD make speed demon super accurate loads.I mean it does seem most casting has moved over to pistol which honestly doesn't seem to need as much to get the results people want .
So what happened?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231003/f4fb23a95a4acfc52bde5dac446c8c10.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231003/ee1299b4b6d98051790c57807f7c6995.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231003/dc6eb859ca1345e8dd285b4109206312.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231003/f1147d345bccf044202e10192197d882.jpg

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[Hannibal]

A few years ago there was a HUGE blow-up on this forum about high-velocity cast bullets and how to achieve that reliability and with accuracy.

I'm not going to attempt to rehash the subject but I suspect you can uncover a lot if you do a search on the subject on this forum.

Be prepared because there's a lot to wade through and you'll likely be confused at the end.

I suggest conducting your own testing and draw conclusions for yourself. I believe you'll find it a challenge depending on what you consider accuracy and at what distance.

[elmacgyver0]

Companies like to sell their fancy jacketed bullets, possibly?

[Dusty Bannister]

Looking at the data for 270 Winchester as you present it, only one bullet selection lists a potentially most accurate combination. The remaining data for the 270 Winchester shows data that is tested for safe pressures.

25/06 does not even show a potentially most accurate load, but does give data that has been pressure tested that is safe.

243 Winchester shows only one of the combinations tested for potentially most accurate and that is also a modest velocity.

223 Remington also has pressure tested safe load data for a wide range of pressures, but no potentially most accurate load. This is telling the reloader that the data is safe, but you will have to seek your own accuracy loads. Based upon your own alloy, powder charges, fit and condition of equipment. While one can get jacketed bullet performance with cast bullets, not many people care to invest the time in the quest.

The new information in the front of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Ed, is quite informative if studied by persons just getting started. Others with more experience may not find it as beneficial. Yes, it does not contain all the information present in the 3rd edition, but there is new information and currently available powder data not in the prior edition.

[BLAHUT]

Try it and get your own answers ???

[Larry Gibson]

Lyman used to at least shoot their loads for actual accuracy at 50 yards. Some years back they stopped doing that and now select "accuracy loads" based on the internal ballistic uniformity. The fine print in the current Lyman manuals will tell you that. Many only shoot at ranges of 50 or 100 yards maximum and can get usable [not to be confused with "best"] accuracy at those ranges above 2000 fps. Still, the majority of cast bullet shooters aren't interested in HV loads. They are interested in cheap loads that just do "good enough" at the shorter ranges.

However, since most rifles have twists of 10" or faster good or the best accuracy will be found when using binary or ternary lubed cast bullets at less than 2000 fps. There is an "RPM Threshold" that falls between 120 to 140,000 RPM. With a 10" twist 140,000 RPM will be hit at 1944 fps. To push the threshold above that requires abilities and techniques that many haven't mastered or don't care to master.

[Wolfdog91]

Try it and get your own answers ???

I have been. But I'm.not asking for advice or a recipe in this post

[Wolfdog91]

Lyman used to at least shoot their loads for actual accuracy at 50 yards. Some years back they stopped doing that and now select "accuracy loads" based on the internal ballistic uniformity. The fine print in the current Lyman manuals will tell you that. Many only shoot at ranges of 50 or 100 yards maximum and can get usable [not to be confused with "best"] accuracy at those ranges above 2000 fps. Still, the majority of cast bullet shooters aren't interested in HV loads. They are interested in cheap loads that just do "good enough" at the shorter ranges.

However, since most rifles have twists of 10" or faster good or the best accuracy will be found when using binary or ternary lubed cast bullets at less than 2000 fps. There is an "RPM Threshold" that falls between 120 to 140,000 RPM. With a 10" twist 140,000 RPM will be hit at 1944 fps. To push the threshold above that requires abilities and techniques that many haven't mastered or don't care to master.

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

[Winger Ed.]

Once you get up into the 2000s, accuracy tends to fall off and the amount of Leading goes up.
Powder coating and gas checks help some, but they have their limits too.

When smokeless powders came along and the higher speeds became available, this is why jacketed bullets
came along shortly after to take advantage of the higher speeds smokeless powders made available.

What is in our future, and Professor youtube already has several videos on it is casting with Zinc.
From the same mold, they weigh about 60% of what a Lead boolit does.
However; you can push them on up to jacketed speeds safely, and with good results.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

However, since most rifles have twists of 10" or faster good or the best accuracy will be found when using binary or ternary lubed cast bullets at less than 2000 fps. There is an "RPM Threshold" that falls between 120 to 140,000 RPM. With a 10" twist 140,000 RPM will be hit at 1944 fps. To push the threshold above that requires abilities and techniques that many haven't mastered or don't care to master.

Larry has hit the nail on the head! My best cast boolit shooter is a 270 Savage built on a Douglas 1:10" twist barrel. There were no Lyman data for his round so through experiment I developed my own. A 132gn cast boolit with GC and powder coated can be shot with full loads (2588 fps) and very good accuracy.

https://i.imgur.com/CtMbKoRl.jpg

[dverna]

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

It is not worth the journey. You read a lot of crap on sites like this. Listen to Larry. He nailed it.

The smartest decision I made was to give up on HV cast bullet loads. You will waste a lot of components and time to get mediocre results with most factory rifles.

I tried and failed with .30 cal bullets. It is easy to get a sub 1.5 MOA load with almost any $30-40 jacketed bullet in the .308 at 2600 fps. It is a challenge with cast bullets. And by sub 1.5 MOA I mean the average of 4 five shot groups...wallet groups do not mean much. I have no need for thousands of .30 cal bullets so why waste the time/resources. I bought 1200 premium hunting bullets that will last my lifetime for less than $700. You can piss away money on a two or three molds to find a bullet your gun "likes", and try different lubes and different sizers and GC's and shoot a bunch of groups with $85/k primers and $45/lb powder to find a mediocre load that shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards but goes to hell at 300 yards and may not expand reliably at all ranges.

With the .223 cast is even more ridiculous. I can buy 55 gr Hornady SP's for less than $10/100 and they will shoot 1 MOA at 3000 fps. Try that with a cast bullet. The Hornady bullets are less than $10/100 in bulk. A cast GC bullet is about $4/100. IMO it makes no sense to cast for that caliber.

Now, it you like to do stuff like that, go for it. BTW have you seen how many molds have gone on sale on this site recently? It is a good time to buy stuff but it tells you others are either getting too old to cast or have given up on getting good results.

The reality is you can never cast a better HV bullet than you can buy. You will need to determine the trade offs of deterioration in accuracy/range, cost savings and time invested.

[jsizemore]

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

When talking about accuracy reloading locally most will say "Ya ain't gotta do all dat!" They fall in the 2 categories of animal mauler or contributor.

[stubshaft]

I think the reason that velocity of current cast loads has fallen off is because of the lack of Linotype. Back when I was shooting silhouette lino was selling for 15 - 20 CENTS a pound. Heck, most of my 7mm bullets were pure Lino and I had no problem driving them to 2300 fps. I was even shooting "hardball" (Half and half, Lino and pure) in my IPSC and PPC guns.

The other aspect that I observed is that there is very little testing being done to ensure that the lube being used is giving you the best accuracy. Nowadays it seems that someone will throw together some red lube or LLA and if it doesn't lead, call it good. They are looking for quick and easy! Yet not many people try different lubes or adjusting the components of their lube for best accuracy. I remember having many conversations with Felix over the different components of lube and their effects on accuracy.

Just my 2 cents...

[Hannibal]

I have been. But I'm.not asking for advice or a recipe in this post

So you've tried it then. What velocity are you shooting at and what accuracy are you getting at what yardage? Because unless I'm reading too much into what you're saying you've already achieved the level you determined to be accurate and are questioning why others consider it difficult.

If I've got that wrong I'd like to know what you are posting about?

[M-Tecs]

So something I found interesting is how limitations on cast bullets have happened. The current thing seems to be you cant' or shouldn't push a cast rifle bullet past 2000fps. However while looking through the Lyman cast bullets hand book 3rd edition from the 80's. Well..... not saying you need to push them at jacketed velocity but it's certainly more possible then most try to make it seem. Also must say it seems something happened where casting seems to have been dumbed down a little .Reading though this manual vs new stuff.... seems a lot is left out as far as casting for HV rifle and getting accurate loads. Iean the newest stuff I've seen in print about cast rifle loading basically says 1800fs to 2000fps is what your gonna max out on and you might get half dext accuracy, live with it. Mean while the older stuff it's telling you how you COULD make speed demon super accurate loads.I mean it does seem most casting has moved over to pistol which honestly doesn't seem to need as much to get the results people want .
So what happened?


I've been casting since 1968. More information and molds are currently available than any time in the past. More like we are in the golden age verse being dumbed down.

The only real issue is wheel weights are not a good source of alloy anymore.

In the past paper patching allowed for increased velocities and accuracy, but few want to go through the effort. I have not jumped into PC yet, but claims are it does expand the performance envelope of cast??? With both the paper patch and PC controlling expansion compared to jacket is a challenge.

Even when they actually shot groups for the so-called accuracy load that means little. It's nothing more than the best accuracy out of that group of loads. If all groups tested gave poor accuracy the best accuracy is still poor. It also is meaningless in a different firearm, chamber and barrel.

Lead and lead alloy bullets have a more limited performance envelope than the currently available jacketed bullets. For hunting a slight change in the alloy can produce over or under expansion and or fragmentation.

Some people like Larry have built slow twist rifles for custom chambers and bullet design to maximize accuracy. His accuracy results speak for themselves. For hunting the question how they compare to jacketed for expansion performance?

Most that go down the HV quest discover the efforts don't justify the rewards for most applications.

[35 Rem]

I think a lot of the reason why few seek high velocity cast is hunting. Most want to be able to hunt with their cast rifle loads even if they rarely do. As velocity goes up hardness is going to tend to increase also. You can only make a bullet so hard before it begins to lack expansion needed for humane kills.

For me, I only hunt with cast in cartridges that max out a bit above 2,000 ft/sec. If I want to overlook huge fields and make 400 yard or longer shots, I go to the 257 Weatherby and Barnes TTSX 100 grain at 3,590 ft/sec.

[gloob]

Jacketed data always lists a specific manufactured bullet.

Commercial cast rifle bullets are few, and what are available seem to be the flavor of the month. Limited availability at high cost until the maker realizes no one wants to buy cast rifle bullets in quantities that make it sensible.

Lyman ends up listing the bullet mold, weight, and only using #2 alloy.

But in practice, we have infinite alloys, different brand and material checks, water quenching, how many days/weeks post-quench, and several different coatings. It gets complicated.

[billmc2]

The more I read on this site, the more I discover just how much I do not know. It sounds to me, that many of you have forgotten more than I'll ever be able to learn. (I just got started in this business a couple of years ago. The calendar is telling me I don't have enough time left to learn all this stuff.)

[poppy42]

I kind of think it cycles as technology changes. I mean realistically man’s been casting lead projectiles for What, 600 years? It started out as Plano leadballs that rattle down the muzzle of a smoothbore. Then rifling came about designs and shapes changed. Now we powder coat and gas check them. There’s already a lot of talk about casting zinc bullets. It seems like as technological advances in powders and bullet designs change it takes a little while for casting to catch up with it. Take casting for the AR as an example. Not too long ago it wasn’t exactly the easiest thing to do. Add gas jacks and powder coating or high-tech coating all of a sudden it’s not that big a deal anymore. Personally I’ve been there done that with quite good effects not so much anymore stew much of a hassle cast of those tiny little 22 caliber bullets as far as I’m concerned. The process ebbs and flows

[Shopdog]

It's hard to get "there" without going through here. Sayin,if you aren't shooting bugholes and dots at low node 4759 and 4198 loads,then expecting anything at 4895 and Varget ain't gonna happen. As your "progress" into really slow powders your bench manors are going to fail,miserably.... but now,your already behind the curve(never got the accuracy at low node) and getting deeper. The torque on a tight twist jacked up 260 is humbling,trying it with a hunting rifle will make you look like a little kid.

[dverna]

The more I read on this site, the more I discover just how much I do not know. It sounds to me, that many of you have forgotten more than I'll ever be able to learn. (I just got started in this business a couple of years ago. The calendar is telling me I don't have enough time left to learn all this stuff.)

Here is the "Cliff notes" as I see it.

Cast bullets can be used in the vast majority of pistol rounds successfully without a PHD in casting. The reasons being...they are larger bullets and easier to cast...they are rarely pushed much over 1400 fps....top accuracy is not needed (in fact most people cannot shoot pistols well enough to tell)

Cast bullets in factory rifles gets more challenging. If you stay under 2000 fps and are satisfied with 3 MOA at 100 yards you can get there with some work. If you want to go over 2200 fps and/or get 6" groups at 300 yards it is not a walk in the park. As bullet diameter lessens, the challenge will increase.

I doubt there are more than a dozen people on this site that can achieve 2 MOA at 300 yards with cast bullets at 2500 fps MV. They have shown us how to do it. It is not easy.

Years ago, I started a thread when PC bullets became "the new thing". It asked people to post if they had been able to get 2 MOA at 100 yards with PC'ed bullets. IIRC, after months of activity, there were a handful of folks who had been able to do it.

You need to learn enough to meet your requirements and enough to know if your goals are realistic. If you cannot cast a bullet for the .38 Spl that will hold 3" at 50 yards out of a decent carbine or target pistol, you are not ready to move on to "bigger and better" things.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

With many calibers, recoil can become an issue. Again rifling twist can become a factor. The 32 Special and 35 Rem can be loaded to their maximum(or above in stronger actions) with little difficulty. The 22 Hornet in older rifles with 1-16 twist works fine well above 2000fps. There are multiple theories on what limits attainable velocity. Richard Lee's 'Lee Precision Modern Reloading Manual 2nd Edition' also has some theories. Higher velocities can be reached, but more care and attention to many details start to get involved. Barrel twist, lead/bullet alloy/hardness, burn rate of powders ( slower powders for easier, longer bullet acceleration), bullet lubrication or coatings. For shooting at 50 to 100 yards, velocity is not particularly important, distance and wind is when velocity and bullet shape start to make difference. Again FUN and an enjoyable exercise shooting, Reloading and molding bullets all come into play. Cost can also be a consideration. Can you make a .223 bullet cheaper than the bulk bullets available? Time, mold cost, accuracy, with FUN the highest priority.

[Bigslug]

If you read through the threads on the .30XCB, you're going to see that going HV with cast is really another plateau of technology.

If you wanted to liken it to airplanes: merely getting airborne requires some carpentry skills, canvas, and a really basic internal combustion engine; hanging guns on that airplane and pushing it to 500mph requires you advance those concepts - a lot; punching through the sound barrier requires you to pretty much discard everything you thought you knew about making airplanes. . .and it's going to cost you more and work your brain harder than your boards and sheets.

Similarly, we've got a bunch of hunting and target rifles out there in the world that have rifling twists optimized for jacketed bullets - often custom-built with faster twists to shoot long, super-pointy aerodynamic jacketed bullets. The "classic" beauty of the .30-06's 1-10" twist is that you can run jacketed bullets from 110 to north of 220 grains. That all falls apart when you try to spin up a cast bullet past (IME) about 2,200-2,300 fps. At that point, you're needing to "rework the airplane" with a slower twist barrel, and that .30-06's jacketed versatility is gone.

So it becomes a question of spending serious money on rifle work, and serious time on ammo quality control to save money on jacketed bullets with the goal of shooting cast at long range. Not my idea of economy. YMMV.

[sukivel]

I’m with Larry and dverna.

After my journey with .223 and .308 I only cast for pistol calibers, slower medium, and big bores now.


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[waksupi]

I think the companies weren't trying to push the limits, like we do.

[Daekar]

More power to those willing to go through the effort, but I have better things to spend time and money on than attempting to use cast bullets in cartridges designed around jacketed bullets.

[WRideout]

When I bought the Lyman 311284 mold for my 30-06 rifle, the intent was to create a hunting load for deer. A 100 yard shot is a long one in this Appalachian part of PA, so max velocity is not the goal. I figure that at the same velocity a 210 gr lead gas checked boolit has more authority that a 150 gr FMJ. After trying several powders, it turned out the H4895 was the key to hunting accuracy in my rifle. No idea what the velocity is; I quit there.

Wayne

[fredj338]

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

I think diminishing returns. Most will not fire 100rds a year of cf rifle. So buying j bullets seems prudent v a mold & gc & trying to find a good load for the purpose intended. I shoot 9-10k handgun rds a year. A few rifle rds between 223 & hunting rifles. It just isnt super beneficial for me to mess with cast in rifles. I did get a mold for my 6.8, pb, just because. With PC, accuracy is decent at 2000fps. I would still reach for a good jsp to hunt though. Casting & reloading is a hobby for me though.

[Newtire]

As far as I'm concerned, the Lyman Cast bullet book is probably a good book for someone who is just starting out but hardly the final word. I have, as many others have done, pushed cast bullets past 2200 fps out of a number of guns. With powder coated bullets I would say that you could top that easily. Just try it and you will see. This forum is probably one of the best places to learn about how to do that. I wouldn't say that a cast bullet can do everything a jacketted bullet can but it sure can beat the velocity limits put on cast bullets by Lyman. Anyone who's ever owned a microgrooved Marlin .444 should know that micro-grooves handle cast just fine. A lot of myths out there can be dispelled by simply trying it out yourself. Get out there and shoot. Saying that. back to work so I can get back out in the garage for some casting.

[405grain]

Possibly for long range target shooting velocity may be an important criteria, but for hunting and general target shooting it isn't the most important aspect. Jacketed bullets have a hard copper jacket that requires higher velocity and impact energy to expand than cast bullets. Because cast bullets don't have a hard metal jacket, they expand at lower velocities. The higher velocities of jacketed bullets would probably be a determent to cast bullets when hunting because it might cause the bullets to fragment on impact instead of penetrating deeply and expanding normally. As a lucky coincidence, the velocity range where cast bullets are best at penetration and expansion on game is usually around the same region where best cast bullet accuracy is obtained.

High velocity, sometimes not even up to jacketed velocity, can cause cast bullets to become inaccurate. There are lots of reasons for this: deformation because of acceleration and pressure, too high of a spin rate, gas cutting and blow-by from excessive pressure, etc. To get accuracy at high velocity you really have to work for it. With specialty alloys, advanced reloading techniques, and firearms designed specifically for shooting high velocity cast loads, if you have the skills you may reap the benefits of those higher velocity loadings. But for the vast majority of us casters, we get out optimal accuracy at a lower speed range. Case in point: my 6.5x55 Mauser is capable of shooting a 3/4" group at 50 yards with a 150 grain Lyman #266673 using a charge of 14 grains of 2400. That's "only" around 1500 fps. If I chose a higher velocity those groups would start to open up. Another example would be my 7x57 Mauser, shooting an RCBS 168 grain bullet with 28 grains of IMR-3031 (with 1 grain poly filler), that has been able to print 1" groups at 100 yards. (scope, benchrest, no wind, me doing a decent job, etc.) This is at around 1750 fps.

I don't want to push a bullet faster just to try and emulate jacked bullets. Cast bullets preform at a different design regime. I would have no qualms using that same 7x57 target load to hunt with, though if I were loading specifically for hunting I'd probably step up the velocity to 1850 fps. For both general target shooting and hunting, cast bullets loads below 2000 fps are usually the best choice, and going higher can sometimes put you at a disadvantage rather than an improvement.

[fredj338]

Possibly for long range target shooting velocity may be an important criteria, but for hunting and general target shooting it isn't the most important aspect. Jacketed bullets have a hard copper jacket that requires higher velocity and impact energy to expand than cast bullets. Because cast bullets don't have a hard metal jacket, they expand at lower velocities. The higher velocities of jacketed bullets would probably be a determent to cast bullets when hunting because it might cause the bullets to fragment on impact instead of penetrating deeply and expanding normally. As a lucky coincidence, the velocity range where cast bullets are best at penetration and expansion on game is usually around the same region where best cast bullet accuracy is obtained.

High velocity, sometimes not even up to jacketed velocity, can cause cast bullets to become inaccurate. There are lots of reasons for this: deformation because of acceleration and pressure, too high of a spin rate, gas cutting and blow-by from excessive pressure, etc. To get accuracy at high velocity you really have to work for it. With specialty alloys, advanced reloading techniques, and firearms designed specifically for shooting high velocity cast loads, if you have the skills you may reap the benefits of those higher velocity loadings. But for the vast majority of us casters, we get out optimal accuracy at a lower speed range. Case in point: my 6.5x55 Mauser is capable of shooting a 3/4" group at 50 yards with a 150 grain Lyman #266673 using a charge of 14 grains of 2400. That's "only" around 1500 fps. If I chose a higher velocity those groups would start to open up. Another example would be my 7x57 Mauser, shooting an RCBS 168 grain bullet with 28 grains of IMR-3031 (with 1 grain poly filler), that has been able to print 1" groups at 100 yards. (scope, benchrest, no wind, me doing a decent job, etc.) This is at around 1750 fps.

I don't want to push a bullet faster just to try and emulate jacked bullets. Cast bullets preform at a different design regime. I would have no qualms using that same 7x57 target load to hunt with, though if I were loading specifically for hunting I'd probably step up the velocity to 1850 fps. For both general target shooting and hunting, cast bullets loads below 2000 fps are usually the best choice, and going higher can sometimes put you at a disadvantage rather than an improvement.
Sort of. I cast for my 45-70 but jacketed upset just fine at 2000fps while getting a lead bullet to do that & shoot well is a challenge. If I have to rely on a gc in other calibers, might as well shoot jacketed.

[gwpercle]

When I started casting and reloading ... 1967 ... there was no internet , no forums and no U-Tube . All I had was The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #2 ( #3 wasn't published untill 1980 ) and some NRA Publications and a reloading book by Phil Sharpe .
There was no one around to tell me I couldn't do something like shoot cast lead 30 cal. boolits over 2000 fps ... properly sized , with a hard , heat treated boolit , a gas check and good lube ... you can do a lot .
I shot them as fast as I wanted to ... Good accuracy may not be easy to get , but with enough work you could usually do what needed to be done .

I guess when you don't have someone telling you ... that can't be done ... you just jump in and get it done !
Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook #3 is still my Main #1 Go-To Book !
Gary

[gc45]

HV is not why most reload or cast their own Boolits. Lower cost and accuracy is what most are after. I know my Dad looked at it way back then, he shot large caliber rifles and revolvers. I learned from him and mostly reload and hunt using the older rifles from the 1800's, both single shot and levers at those velocities intended for them. For all who want to push lead to, or over 2000fps that is totally acceptable in my book, pushing the envelope is "the mother of invention" and more power to them.

[popper]

I've only gone to 2400 fps with cast. It can be done. Most are happy (including me) for 18-1900 for hunting/plinking. Why beat up the gun?

[Hannibal]

Sort of. I cast for my 45-70 but jacketed upset just fine at 2000fps while getting a lead bullet to do that & shoot well is a challenge. If I have to rely on a gc in other calibers, might as well shoot jacketed.

I had a different take on the 45-70. I stick with black powder pressures and use a softer lead. Worked just as well recently as it did over a century ago.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Did the usual cleaning ritual yesterday, fast or slow, cast boolits simply polish the bores of my favourite guns to a mirror finish. No. 'J' boolit will do that!

Yes, I'm hooked on casting.

[Good Cheer]

Guys, there's a reality people operate within during any discussion. With cast boolits it's generally factory produced cartridges and that's the reality.

You want to make your boolits do what you want? Go design your own cartridge.

[Walstr]

It is not worth the journey. You read a lot of crap on sites like this. Listen to Larry. He nailed it.

The smartest decision I made was to give up on HV cast bullet loads. You will waste a lot of components and time to get mediocre results with most factory rifles.

I tried and failed with .30 cal bullets. It is easy to get a sub 1.5 MOA load with almost any $30-40 jacketed bullet in the .308 at 2600 fps. It is a challenge with cast bullets. And by sub 1.5 MOA I mean the average of 4 five shot groups...wallet groups do not mean much. I have no need for thousands of .30 cal bullets so why waste the time/resources. I bought 1200 premium hunting bullets that will last my lifetime for less than $700. You can piss away money on a two or three molds to find a bullet your gun "likes", and try different lubes and different sizers and GC's and shoot a bunch of groups with $85/k primers and $45/lb powder to find a mediocre load that shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards but goes to hell at 300 yards and may not expand reliably at all ranges.

With the .223 cast is even more ridiculous. I can buy 55 gr Hornady SP's for less than $10/100 and they will shoot 1 MOA at 3000 fps. Try that with a cast bullet. The Hornady bullets are less than $10/100 in bulk. A cast GC bullet is about $4/100. IMO it makes no sense to cast for that caliber.

Now, it you like to do stuff like that, go for it. BTW have you seen how many molds have gone on sale on this site recently? It is a good time to buy stuff but it tells you others are either getting too old to cast or have given up on getting good results.

The reality is you can never cast a better HV bullet than you can buy. You will need to determine the trade offs of deterioration in accuracy/range, cost savings and time invested.

And therein lies the definition between a 'hobby' and its relative 'amateur scientific study'. For me, there's a little of both in my wheelhouse & that what keeps me up late - with a smile on my face. Good times Pard, good times.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I have several reasons to cast bullets, and most vary by application:

1) Small Pistol -- One mold (LEE) is cheaper than bought bullets, and I have lots of lead and applicable powder
2) Large Revolver -- Even w/ multiple Molds casting is a cost savings, and Lead bullets (GC or PB, and I lean toward PB very much) deliver less wear & tear on forcing cones, and a performance Increase (Velocity, Trajectory, and sometimes Accuracy). I find 2 1/2 inch groups at 50 yds very easy w/ Cast.
3) SS Pistol -- For me these are mid to large bore, and I use some of my other molds (no added costs) -- up to 2000 fps-ish -- I find Cost and (w/ 35 Rem) Performance improvements. Accuracy is Equivalent in what I use to jacketed
4) Mid size rifle (30-35) -- I use these 1600-2000 Mostly. It's about cost for me, and AT TIMES load development w/ undefined powders in the cartridge. I can shoot a lot more for the same bill. I give up little to none in Accuracy.
5) Large size rifle (416) -- I use these ~ 2000 fps Mostly. It's about Cost for me, and VERY OFTEN load development w/ just about any powders in the cartridges. I can shoot a Lot more for the same bill. I give up Nothing in Accuracy in my two 416 applications.

6) I find it (a) enjoyable, (b) relaxing, (c) educational.

[elmacgyver0]

I'm kind of glad I do not have high level expectations; life is more enjoyable that way.
As long as my guns cycle and I have reasonable accuracy, I don't try to push the envelope.
I like PC because it looks nice and it is clean, not because I can send it down the barrel at the speed of light.
Of course, I'm just an old fart and it doesn't take much to amuse me.[smilie=l:

[waksupi]

For those who don't know, Lyman used to be a sponsor here, and they would recommend customers to direct their questions to this page for answers on cast bullets.
They got upset when members here would have legitimate complaints about their quality of some molds. Lyman demanded that those type of comments be censored. Ken told them to jump rope.
Lyman recognized this is the place for expertise of what can be accomplished with cast bullets.

[jdgabbard]

I think the reason that velocity of current cast loads has fallen off is because of the lack of Linotype. Back when I was shooting silhouette lino was selling for 15 - 20 CENTS a pound. Heck, most of my 7mm bullets were pure Lino and I had no problem driving them to 2300 fps. I was even shooting "hardball" (Half and half, Lino and pure) in my IPSC and PPC guns.

It's true that Linotype was used a lot more then than it is today. But I don't think Lino is maker/breaker of accuracy and velocity as it was once viewed. Sure, a harder boolit can perform better at higher velocities under certain circumstances. But generally, in my experience, it has more to do with leading than anything. But even then, some of my best shooting loads I've experienced a decent amount of leading with. Though, in my experience that does seem to be the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself. Even then, we've consistently shown fit is more important than hardness. I think Lino was simply preferred for it's hardness helping to prevent excess leading. Not it's potential for accuracy, which I've seen no evidence of in my loads. From what I've gathered BP shooters have been quite familiar with this for a long time, a softer boolit obturates to help fill in the voids. So we in the smokeless realm instead size 0.002 - 4 over bore to achieve something similar. Along with looking at all kinds of different lubrication techniques - whether that be some great new lube, or PC'd boolits. There just isn't the need for Lino anymore with the advancement of our understanding about what is happening with the boolit. Of course this doesn't take boolit "skidding" into consideration, which can and does affect accuracy as well as leading in the throat area.

As to my own willingness to push the speed barriers of cast, it is just not what my goal is. There are three areas that cast has for me - primarily that is. One is training. It's a cheap, accurate, and reliable alternative to shoot high volumes of commercial ammo now that all the cheap imported stuff from yesteryear has dried up. I haven't seen what I consider cheap imported stuff in years... Second, for hunting. The fact is, I don't need a 3000fps bullet to take down the game I'm shooting at. I can do that with a decent projectile traveling at 1800fps easy enough. Third, I have fun going to the range and shooting. If nothing else, it's just plain fun to go put rounds on paper, or steel if that's your thing. Any of those items are more than met requirement wise with boolits under 2000fps. And at the end of the day, RPMs have an effect as Larry pointed out. I am loading for the tools I have, i.e. the rifles/pistols I own. Not building tools around the boolits I want. I know my limitations, and I am working within the envelope I have.

To me this is the same conversation about hot-rodding <insert whatever pistol round> for maximum velocity. Sure, it's fun when you just get started to see how powerful of a round you can make. But once that wears off you start looking for the most accurate load for whatever it is you're doing. Unless you're another Elmer Keith who is just dead set on seeing what kind of handcannon you can come up with next...

[midnight]

I too hit the 2100 fps wall. My 2100 fps load for the 50 bmg with a 833 gr linotype bullet shot 1 moa over and over. 2300 fps groups were in the 4 inch range. I have powder coated a couple of batches but have yet to load them. My advanced age and the loss of my range to shoot at means I probably won’t be shooting them. Lake City 647gr ball ammo gets 2800fps from my 30 inch 15 twist barrel so I imagine 2650 or so is all I could expect from my 833gr linotype bullet anyway so I’m only 500fps short of the max I could expect. Maybe the powder coat might give me 2 or 3 hundred more but I’ll probably never find out.

Bob

[fredj338]

I had a different take on the 45-70. I stick with black powder pressures and use a softer lead. Worked just as well recently as it did over a century ago.

In some guns yes. The Marlins may be better with jacketed. My GG is pretty darn accurate with 350gr SP @ 2000fps & they upset just fine at 100y..

[Harter66]

My personal achievements with cast come from a long list of folks a number of them are no longer here and more have passed on .


I've long felt that this site allowed many of the more adventurous types to build on the work of others and yet others to build on that work .

The results of that can be in my own quests and results.
I do have a mechanical aptitude so that probably helps .

I've successfully run all of my pistols to full jacketed performance without leading, checks or unusually hard bullets . As I've loaded the docile 38 Short, Special, 45 Schofield, and Colts thats not a huge surprise but when you add 357 , 9 , and 40 to the mix it gets more interesting.
30-30 and 32 Rem doing 2200 fps MV with 160s and and 175s isn't super special. Doing it plain based does make it more interesting and just over 1 MOA makes more interesting.
222 Rem 2640 fps under an inch per 5 at 100 yd with a 62 gr .
223 just won't walk for me past about 1940 fps . 1-8" vs the 1-12 of the 222 I suspect has a little to do with it , same everything as the 222 .
Dad's 25-06' is still a work in progress all of the loads seem to run up and close down to about 1.5" at 50 and then go flat . There's not a lot data for 125 gr bullet cast or otherwise. The 1-9 should be plenty as it shoots a longer 100gr jacket in to an inch with boring monotony.
I paper patched the 6.5s so I don't think those count here . The only interesting thing about them is that 1 was a 264WM .
The 6.8 SPC with a 1-11 twist bolt runs a 130 2250 it falls apart over 2100 in the 1-10" and wouldn't cycle the 4198 that was grouping better and going fast in the 16" barrels .
1800 was the top for the 1-9 06' and 7.62 39 . 200 gr spitzer.
358 Win shoots 5 into .760 ctc with a 255 gr 35-250 at 2100 fps . Like the 222 this is the middle of the jacket data by weight .
I've pushed a 255 gr plain base 2000 fps MV in a 45-70 1895G with excellent results . The 405s and a 530 gr 45-500 hover around 2.5" and 1100 fps MV is plenty of thump for me and 2.5" at 100 will handle all the work I'll ever need done

7mm , finding a bullet has been a challenge . I expect to find the happy place about 1900 fps MV . Having a 1-8.5 twist doesn't make me super happy in the 7×57 but it should be great with the 7×6.8 SPC

[Newtire]

Just something I discovered by trying something new for myself. We tested the hardness of the lead from the range scrap I cast these from and the LBT tester said #5. I dug them out of the 100 yard berm. They were going 1700-1750 out of the muzzle. They were powder coated is all in a $10.00 toaster oven. No fancy alloys or anything and really accurate. .357 160 gr. NOE rn. Hmmm..can't seem to post a picture now. Used to be able to do that.318694OK, got it. Gas check? We don’t need no steenking gas checks.

[charlie b]

Have cast for 40yrs, mostly pistol. Last 5 yrs have gone to rifle (.308win 10" twist).

Started at 'normal' velocities and then went to PC. Favorite bullet is a 210gn bore rider powder coated. Good for ~1MOA out to 300yd. 500yd it is not as consistent but still gets less than 1.5MOA.

Went the HV route. Ran into the vel (RPM) limit. Sometimes I could get 2300fps bullets to work and sometimes not. Never figured that part out. I 'think' it is temp related but not sure. I stopped simply because I don't like the recoil. I'd rather shoot 1900fps at 300yd and hit soda cans 9 of 10 times. Gentle to shoot, cheap bullets. I am still working on better accuracy, MOA is ok but 1/2MOA would be better :)

When I want long range stuff I get out my 6BR with custom bullets :)

Re the Lyman handbook. Just because they list a vel does not mean it is accurate. Accuracy for a load may be horrible, but, they list where the max pressure is reached with that bullet and powder. Nothing has really changed over the years. I remember a LOT of work with cast bullets and bench rest shooting back in the 80's. Tons of stuff was tried to get vel up and they would still go back to 1700-2000fps.

Sent from my SM-P613 using Tapatalk

[Shiloh]

A friend has a .30 cal. 1:12 barrel. He drives them over 2000fps.

Shiloh

[firefly1957]

I only loaded a few high speed cast bullet loads before I tried powder coat ( I am preferring baked on spray enamel paint) I got good results in .45 & 50 Caliber rifles with fast loads and conventional lube .

One thing I have found out with coated bullets I can go dead soft and shoot accurately past 2000 f/s. I also found you DO NOT WANT TO SEAT ANY ALLOY BULLET DEEPER THEN THE CASE NECK! I did this with a 162 grain gas check bullet in .357-44 B&D @ 1700 f/s two shots were fine almost touched at 25 yards The third shot had a large smoke cloud the bullet hit the edge of the paper canted a bit . My barrel ports bore and even brass case where coated with lead! From what I could see the bullet must have riveted (deformed) before leaving the case and all that lead just made a mess as more and more was exposed even with the gas check in there somewhere! Oddly the primer showed no high pressure signs ?

[Larry Gibson]

The RPM Threshold of 120-140,000 RPM with ternary cast lubed bullets falls between 1666 and 1944 fps out of a 10" twist barrel. Out of a 12" twist barrel the range is 2000 to 2333 fps. Barrel twist does make a difference.

[Targa]

The only thing I run through my Winchester 30-30 are my cast 150 and 170 grain bullets. The 150’s are just over 2300 fps using Leverevolution powder, I haven’t noticed any leading worth mentioning.

[Wooserco]

While I've been out of the casting world for about 25 years: just recently coming back (I want my old Ideal molds back!) my casting and High Power Rifle shooting mentor (Lester Z.) taught me that 1,800 fps. was the limit for shooting cast.

He would shoot the CMP and club matches with cast at 200 and 300 yards with his bolt rifle. I can still see him rockin' and rollin' with his bolt rife. Only switched to jacketed at 600 yds. He was a Korean war vet. I still remember the stories that those vets told during a cease fire to clear the turkeys away from the line of fire. My 12 and 14 year old kids were in the target pits with me that day. I told them to listen, they were getting a first hand history lesson that will never be taught in school. One was Navy, one Army at the Battle of Pusan. Man, I miss Lester.

[frkelly74]

Then there is Zinc. a whole different rabbit hole to investigate.

[ACC]

Well it seems the big companies, like Lyman and RCBS, have dumbed it down because of liability. I remember back is the 70's casting your own bullets was the way to go. Now not so much. People are so scared of lead poisoning. I have a lead level done every year and I am below normal. I only reload for one rifle my 7.62X39 bolt action rifle these days and once I got the right mold, I push it to the same velocity that jacketed bullets give me with no leading. These are powder coated. I also cast for all the hand guns I shoot. These are tumble lubed because I shoot so many rounds a month and don't have time to powder coat them.

ACC

[20:1]

Competing members of the Cast Bullet Assn. routinely shoot cast out to 200 yards. It requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in. There is a large following of competitors using production rifles, surplus military rifles, plain base bullets, and even handguns. They're not just unlimited class bench monsters. There are other examples as well such as the Quigley Matches, and other long range events. One basic guideline is to follow the accuracy, not the velocity. Additionally, I've shot a few heavy caliber rifles at over 2500 fps with roughly 1.5 MOA. As I said earlier, it requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in.;-)

[dtknowles]

Competing members of the Cast Bullet Assn. routinely shoot cast out to 200 yards. It requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in. There is a large following of competitors using production rifles, surplus military rifles, plain base bullets, and even handguns. They're not just unlimited class bench monsters. There are other examples as well such as the Quigley Matches, and other long range events. One basic guideline is to follow the accuracy, not the velocity. Additionally, I've shot a few heavy caliber rifles at over 2500 fps with roughly 1.5 MOA. As I said earlier, it requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in.;-)

I have not competed and I am not sure how competitive I could be but I have shot a lot of groups under 1.5 MOA at 100 yards at over 2000 fps with a 30 BR, can't get to 2500 fps with that small case. I have shot a few groups under 1.0 MOA but not many most are just over. I don't know about patience and determination and a lot of work. I mean it is not just throw together something and it will work but not a lot more than typical load development if you start with recommendations you can find here. The XCB threads are outstanding regarding alloy and lube and bullet fit to barrel and throat and bullet choice.

Yes, it would be really hard if we did not have all this experience to lean on.

Tim

[rintinglen]

The RPM Threshold of 120-140,000 RPM with ternary cast lubed bullets falls between 1666 and 1944 fps out of a 10" twist barrel. Out of a 12" twist barrel the range is 2000 to 2333 fps. Barrel twist does make a difference.

True words, These! I got useable accuracy out of a 30-30 with a 1-12 twist several hundred feet per second higher than out of a 1-10 inch 30-06. (2 inches at 100). If you look at the guys shooting high velocity cast, at least successfully, they usually use a 1-14, 1-15, or 1-16" twist. Lead bullets have limited tensile strength. Spin them too fast and they will distort in the rifling, skidding and damaging the boollit.

However, increasingly over the years I fell into Dverna's mode of thought. Trying to make cast boolits into jacketed bullets just is not worth the effort. I have enough 308 and 30-06 ammunition to last me for the rest of my life and then some. In Virginia where I live now, I find it hard to envision a need for them. I shoot my 30-30s and my .303 savage at modest velocity and hunt with them.

[deltaenterprizes]

I think the reason that velocity of current cast loads has fallen off is because of the lack of Linotype. Back when I was shooting silhouette lino was selling for 15 - 20 CENTS a pound. Heck, most of my 7mm bullets were pure Lino and I had no problem driving them to 2300 fps. I was even shooting "hardball" (Half and half, Lino and pure) in my IPSC and PPC guns.

The other aspect that I observed is that there is very little testing being done to ensure that the lube being used is giving you the best accuracy. Nowadays it seems that someone will throw together some red lube or LLA and if it doesn't lead, call it good. They are looking for quick and easy! Yet not many people try different lubes or adjusting the components of their lube for best accuracy. I remember having many conversations with Felix over the different components of lube and their effects on accuracy.

Just my 2 cents...m

You beat me to it!
The lack of cheap alloy is a big factor!
What most people are missing because they have not been through it is when jacketed bullets are not available cast may be the only option!
223 FMJ were very scarce during the first Gulf war and I would imagine that 308s were also.
We are not in a shooting war and components are scarce!
What is going to happen if we do have a full blown war like WWll?
It can happen overnight and what you have may be all you can get for a long time!
The Ukrainian war and the Israeli war are consuming a big part of ammunition components and our component manufacturers are supposed to be working full blast and we still have less than desirable availability of components!
In the early 80s I was buying Linotype for 10-15 cents a pound now I think it is $2/lb on a good day! I had 14,000 pounds that I sold for 25 cents a pound!
Those days are long gone!

[dverna]

m

You beat me to it!
The lack of cheap alloy is a big factor!
What most people are missing because they have not been through it is when jacketed bullets are not available cast may be the only option!
223 FMJ were very scarce during the first Gulf war and I would imagine that 308s were also.
We are not in a shooting war and components are scarce!
What is going to happen if we do have a full blown war like WWll?
It can happen overnight and what you have may be all you can get for a long time!
The Ukrainian war and the Israeli war are consuming a big part of ammunition components and our component manufacturers are supposed to be working full blast and we still have less than desirable availability of components!
In the early 80s I was buying Linotype for 10-15 cents a pound now I think it is $2/lb on a good day! I had 14,000 pounds that I sold for 25 cents a pound!
Those days are long gone!

Good point about supply when things go south. It is the only reason I have molds for my .223’s and .30 cal.

But as time marches on they become less important. I keep a stock of 10k .224 jacketed bullets and 2k .30 cal bullets. So far that has never been a problem. The reality is there are only so many bullets an old man needs for a lifetime supply.

If they banned the sale of bullets or they became scarce, I would work up a useable load for each caliber, but otherwise I have no use for cast bullets in rifle calibers I use. I can get 6000 55 gr Hornady SP for $730 delivered. Not worth my time to fool around with casting, making GC’s and sizing/lubing when I get better accuracy and 3000 fps with $.12 bullets.

[deltaenterprizes]

At the risk of repeating myself, cast may be all that is available to us in a number of situations.
I have been accumulating rifle molds because with the cost of jacketed rifle bullets going to $30-$40 per hundred or more I plan to use cast if and when I retire and I am able to make regular visits with the range on a weekly (or weakly) basis like I did when I was younger and first started casting and reloading.
I have always cast for handguns and rarely shoot jacketed in them.
I have been doing limited cast in rifles and have had good results but I am not pushing them or going for small groups yet just getting the procedure down and not using them in semi automatic rifles.
The money I save on bullets can be put towards powder and primers!