How many shots in a group?

[Dom]

Shooting my Savage model 16 260 Rem.Three shot group , 100yds on my range. Barnes 6.5 127gr LRX bullet. Shooting same as last year, & the year before that , & before. A three shot group. Have been taking my elk & deer every year, for ever , no problem. I consider my rifle a hunting rifle not a competition rifle. As long as I can remember , most all my elk , deer & antelope have been under 200yds. Many under 100yds. Am I missing something? Picture shows my group , & my target. 100yds thru the trees. Had to cut down some trees to clear a path to the target. This barrel was fouled with three shots the day before. Sorry, forgot to mention. The two holes together were the first two shots fired.

[Winger Ed.]

That sure looks like 3 to me, and all things considered,,,, not bad at all.

Something ya might try is firing a 'fouling' shot first.
The first shot coming out of a cold, clean & oiled barrel will often be a 'flyer'.

That's why some folks don't clean their barrel after sighting in for the hunting season.
It isn't a perfect solution, but it's a common belief that that helps minimize the effect.

[BLAHUT]

For my hunting rifles I do not clean after sight in until after the season is over, for the reason stated by WINGER....

[charlie b]

I liked hunting with a clean barrel (haven't hunted for a long time). I would take several trips to the range with 5 targets labeled 1 through 5. I'd fire one shot at each target. The last session I'd set the zero on the scope according to group number 1. Then I'd shoot a confirmation shot at each target, clean the rifle and shoot the targets again to confirm.

Where numbers 2 through 5 impacted were noted in case I needed a follow up shot.

FWIW, some barrels did not change POI from 1 through 5. Some changed by several inches.

[Hannibal]

For my hunting rifles I do not clean after sight in until after the season is over, for the reason stated by WINGER....

Agreed. My range rifles are a completely different story but also for achieving a completely different goal too.

[txbirdman]

Last time I went to NM pronghorn hunting I put up a target at 200 yds and fired 1 shot at the target on 5 separate trips to my range from a cold barrel. The goal was to be sure of where my rifle hit on the 1st shot.

[Hannibal]

I will add the number of shots I put in a group depends on what my goal is at the time also.

If I'm establishing the accuracy of a rifle then I shoot a ten shot group and repeat that on 3 different days. That tells me what that rifle and that load is capable of.

If I'm practicing I shoot 5 shot groups.

And if I'm checking my sight in on a known rifle and load combination then I shoot a 3 shot group.

Again, all depends on the goal at the time.

[GhostHawk]

For sighting I often use 3, especially with a new sight or scope. Get on paper, get it centered.

Finish for me is always 10 rounds at 100 yards. Once in a while if I am feeling very confident I settle for 5, but mostly 10.

There are exceptions of course to every rule. Do what works for you.

[Shanghai Jack]

I don't know - how many can you put in the same hole?

[Dom]

Forgot to mention. The barrel of this rifle was fouled by three shots the day before.

[Winger Ed.]

Forgot to mention. The barrel of this rifle was fouled by three shots the day before.


Providing it was a perfectly controlled and aimed shot- no variables on your part, or the ammunition:
and the flyer was the first one fired, that's what will happen next time you fire the first shot from a cold barrel.
If it's the 3rd one, that's from the barrel starting to warm up.

It's not a perfect world, but that theory is easy enough to test.

Either way, I'd figure it's all well with the limits to qualify as 'one minute of deer'.

[stubshaft]

For my hunting rifles I do not clean after sight in until after the season is over, for the reason stated by WINGER....

Same here. If you are asking how many shots I consider to be a group, well it depends. If I am shooting one of my featherweight barrels then usually three shots are a group. If I am shooting one of my heavy barrel varmint rigs then five shots would do it. For me it is predicated on how quickly a barrel heats up.

[trapper9260]

I found that after you clean the barrel , that you put a patch of JPW down the barrel , that it will take care of the fouling from the first shot . I learn that on this site about how to make the barrel already been foul. I try it and works for me. Just to give some ideas out there .

[Texas by God]

A three shot group from field positions(like when hunting) tells me more about my abilities than a five shot group from the bench.
But then all my rifles are hunting rifles, not target rifles.
I’ve always had a place to shoot, though.
At a commercial shooting range, I would shoot five or ten shot groups from the bench as allowed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pietro]

.

Since I hunted deer, etc with a single shot rifle (Ruger #1), groups were much less important to me than getting the first shot from a cold barrel to impact the rifle's zero on the target (deer, usually).

[Dom]

I found that after you clean the barrel , that you put a patch of JPW down the barrel , that it will take care of the fouling from the first shot . I learn that on this site about how to make the barrel already been foul. I try it and works for me. Just to give some ideas out there .

What is JPW....

[TurnipEaterDown]

My input: That third shot is statistics, neck tension, clothing, cheek placement, etc.

I have a bunch of pick up 30-30 brass I use for a 7-30 Waters. The neck thickness varies. And so does the tension loaded out of the die. If I don't sort them, I get groups like that continuously.

I have had loose or slippery clothing make a butt rise on my shoulder and shoot under a deer 30 feet away.

Statistics: I shot a perfect smiley face one time at 50 yds by pure accident.

I figure I know what a load will do when it makes the same 5 shot group every time I pick it up to shoot a five shot group, time after time.
Load development: it better make the same size 5 shot group 5 times.

I prefer 10 shots, and w/ cast 20 to know better what is going on. Cast if I run low I go pour more.

Bench, prone, sticks, supported offhand standing (i.e. my non trigger hand forearm against an upright), etc. doesn't matter the position, I want repeatable 5 shot groups minimum. Standing I rather like 20 shot groups. Highlights my general capability, as well as the flubs.

Of course, I don't expect the same group size from different positions, but it should repeat from other groups in same position.

For repeatability I also do find it best to use targets that are a good pairing with the reticle. Round dots have their disadvantages. Diamonds (like that shown) are nice with a std duplex.

[Electrod47]

For my hunting rifles I do not clean after sight in until after the season is over, for the reason stated by WINGER....

Amen....

[Bigslug]

I practice with cast and hunt with Barnes (state regs). During the off season, I shoot the cast and just run a bore snake when the session is complete. Prior to season, I thoroughly scrub the bore free of the cast load residue, dry it out with 91% rubbing alcohol, and foul the bore with two of the hunting rounds - which is basically the bore condition from which the hunting ammo zero got established. At that point the muzzle gets a latex party balloon stretched over it and held in place with electrical tape to keep out the rain and twigs.

Three shots? Five shots? Ten shots? It's worth trying all simply to know how your rifle behaves as it heats up. The first couple out of a cold bore are going to be the ones that count - most likely - but what you DON'T want to do is set up your final scope settings with a hot barrel if that barrel wanders when it heats. Since there is a need to practice, learning how your tube behaves is worth the effort.

My own two cents: if the rifle doesn't group acceptably over five shots, the rifle needs work.

[dverna]

Shooting my Savage model 16 260 Rem.Three shot group , 100yds on my range. Barnes 6.5 127gr LRX bullet. Shooting same as last year, & the year before that , & before. A three shot group. Have been taking my elk & deer every year, for ever , no problem. I consider my rifle a hunting rifle not a competition rifle. As long as I can remember , most all my elk , deer & antelope have been under 200yds. Many under 100yds. Am I missing something? Picture shows my group , & my target. 100yds thru the trees. Had to cut down some trees to clear a path to the target. This barrel was fouled with three shots the day before. Sorry, forgot to mention. The two holes together were the first two shots fired.

You are not shooting long range so it does not matter. A 3 MOA rifle/load will work on game to 200 yards. Like the song goes, “Don’t worry…be happy”.

If you want to hit little targets and/or at longer ranges statisicts will eat your lunch

If you want to understand statistics, it is easy and fun to do.

Take an accurate PCP air rifle or .22 LR with pellets/ammunition it “likes” to a 50 yard range. Fire 5 shots to “warm things up”. Fire 20 three shot groups and average them. Then fire 12 five shot groups and average them. Finally, shoot 6 ten shot groups and average them. This is not an expensive lesson. Less than 200 rounds, so a pleasant couple of hours “wasted”.

No affects from overheating the barrel, cold barrel, or lube purge, or leading or all the “excuses” people will come up with. But, this is not a good exercise for people who do not like to shoot, have poor bench skills, and cannot focus for a couple of hours.

You, the rifle and ammunition are all the same. The average “accuracy” of your three, five, and ten shot groups will not be the same. Just like we were told a few years ago….follow the science and data. Only this time, it is not politicians who will be lying to you…but you can lie to yourself.

IMO, a three shot group tells you if your POI is close to your POA. It is not a reliable measure of accuracy.

[slim1836]

I don't know - how many can you put in the same hole?

I've never had that problem.

slim

[slim1836]

What is JPW....

Johnson's Paste Wax.

Slim

[FergusonTO35]

Some days the absolute best I can do is to be certain that the point of impact is roughly where the sights or crosshairs are pointed. The pretty 3 or 5 shot clusters you see in gun rags are usually just not happening. If I'm actually trying to group, I'll usually fire like 8 or 10 rounds slow fire to see where the general trend is. I still nearly always make things go dead so I guess I'm doing pretty good!

[nanuk]

When I could afford to shoot more, my hunting rifle, a Ruger 1B 270Win, would get the first run at the targets. 300m pigs. I expected to knock down 2 in sequence with 2 shots from a bench using some loose padding like I would in the forest.

over the last 20 years, I've been 2 for 2, and have never needed to clean the rifle, or adjust the scope

also, this is with ANY factory loaded ammo

I feel confident any game animal I hunt with the 270, if within that 300m range, is meat in my freezer

[firefly1957]

For me a lot depends on the guns use I used to shoot 5 even 10 shot groups in a hunting rifle I did find the groups will move as the gun heats up . In my Varmint rifle 6 mm Rem Heavy barrel or .22 rimfire I do not notice the same .
Last week I fired three shot groups with my 30-06 but only 2 shot group with my Marlin 1895 Recoil was the biggest reason for 2 shot groups.

[Hannibal]

For me a lot depends on the guns use I used to shoot 5 even 10 shot groups in a hunting rifle I did find the groups will move as the gun heats up . In my Varmint rifle 6 mm Rem Heavy barrel or .22 rimfire I do not notice the same .
Last week I fired three shot groups with my 30-06 but only 2 shot group with my Marlin 1895 Recoil was the biggest reason for 2 shot groups.

Pause for a full minute between shots unless you don't under hunting conditions.

Can't imagine why that would be necessary anyway unless it's prairie dog hunting but perhaps I'm missing something.

[atr]

to me it is the first shot out of a cold barrel that counts. Any shots I fire after that are just practice to hold steady. That first shot is what I adjust the scope to.

[FergusonTO35]

Every rifle is a law unto itself as far as barrel heating and time between shots goes. My .30-30's with jacketed loads heat up fast and take forever to cool, as does my Browning BLR. My center-fire bolt actions are much better in that regard. I can usually make several slow fire groups with them and the barrel never gets too hot to touch.

[firefly1957]

Hannibal Yes I rarely shoot more then a single shot for deer but vermin can take several quick shots to anchor or get them all. Just the other night the motion light came on and three Raccoons were in the yard I only got one but also got a 80 yard shot on a skunk at same time with a Mini-14 .
Next Night I got one other about the same time of night .

It was how I use the guns that dropped my numbers of shots more then anything else early on I did find out how heat effects the barrel of my 30-06 with the ten shot groups . OH I should add the higher cost of even reloads as well I did mention recoil above.