If you (think) you have a S&G spin dial lock on your gun safe...

[Winger Ed.]

The nephew with the gently used high end Browning safe that he believed came with a S&G spin dial, didn't.
It does have a S&G dial, and dial ring on the outside.
On the inside, the lock body is actually a $5. Chinese knock off.
He found this out when he took off the door's back panel, and the S&G change key I sent him didn't fit.

In the industry, distributors buy safes from the factory.
Then (usually) put on whatever lock the customer wants.
If you don't spec. the cheap lock from the factory,
often the mounting plate for the lock body will be in the wrong place.
Our company decided to save some money one time and didn't get them installed at the factory.
After they paid me to cut off, re-position, and re-weld a few dozen lock plates--- they quit doing that.

The mounting base for all common safe locks is the same, and all the different locks directly fit it.
The hole through the door for the dial's shaft or electronic lock's wire is the same also.

When we bought all our safes from various factories, we had them come with the $5.oo knock off of
a S&G spin dial. All distributors and dealer (should/probably) do this.
The Chinese locks work, at least for awhile. In the industry, they are not considered reliable.
We pulled them off, dropped them in the trash, and put on whatever the customer wanted.
Electronic, or a real S&G spin dial--- made by S&G.
2-3 times a year, when we had several five gallon buckets full, one of the kids would take 'em to the scrap yard.

In the 11 years I worked for a 900 pound gorilla safe company, selling mostly commercial safes & vaults-
of the thousands of safes that came in and went out through the shop every year-
Not a single one of those Chinese knock off locks ever left the shop except to go in the dumpster or scrap yard.

If your safe has a S&G dial& ring:
If ya want to check and see if it's actually on a S&G lock, peek through the hole where the change key goes in.
If the little hole in the back of the lock body looks like a arrow head--- you have a S&G lock.
If it looks like a 'D' shaped hole- you might have paid the $90-odd dollars for a S&G, but you didn't get one.

If you paid for a S&G, and got a fake--- it's on the dealer you bought it from, not the brand of the safe.

[slim1836]

Good info to know, thanks for sharing.

Slim

[armoredman]

I will have to check.

[BD]

My Champion paperwork say's it came from the factory with a S&G type II dial lock as standard, with the electronic version as a $150 option, (which I didn't choose). I do not see any way to remove the door back which appears to be a pice of 5/8" firerock with a cloth covering applied. I've had this safe for about 15 years and while the lock works fine, I can easily feel the first digit of the combo as I dial past it. Is there a way to remove that door back without wrecking it? I haven't found anything on line.

[contender1]

Good info!

[Winger Ed.]

Is there a way to remove that door back without wrecking it? I haven't found anything on line.

All the ones I've seen have sheet metal screws holding it to the inside door frame.
If the inner panel is padded and covered instead of bare sheet metal-
it's usually either has carpet glued onto it, or the same padded cloth like a car headliner is done with.

If you can't feel screw heads by pushing on it, it might be held with trim clips like a car inside door panel is held with.
To check for which lock ya have, you shouldn't have to remove the inner panel.

Feel around directly behind the spin dial on the out side.
There should be about a 1" hole where the combination change key fits through.
Make a tiny slit it it, and you should be able to see the hole in the lock back plate.

If the electronic lock option was only a $150.
That's quite fair, they are giving about a $100.oo 'trade in allowance' for the spin dial.

What you feel may just be a coincidence of the dial's stem in there picking up one of the wheels
that hold a combination number. It might be the wheel for combination number 2 or 3,
and not really hitting the right spot for Combo. #1's wheel to have its gate under the bar in there that opens the lock.


A 15 year old S&G spin dial lock that's been in home use is about as worn out as a new car with 2-300 miles on it.
The one on my big safe came off a bank vault that was opened and closed a few times a day for at least 20 years.
If it doesn't work like a brand new one--- I'm not smart enough to notice.

I'm sure yours is indeed a S&G.
A knock off Chinese lock feels 'clunky' by comparison, and would have acted up by now.

[Kraschenbirn]

I've had my "National" safe (with an S&G spin-dial) for 33 or 34 years. Rather than remove the liner to check the key hole, can I safely assume that it's the real thing rather than a Chinese knock-off?

Bill

[1Hawkeye]

Thanks for the tip, And I'll add this don't ever go the electronic lock route. Iv'e had 2 of them fail and had to have the safe drilled by the locksmith twice. The second time he suggested the S &G dial rather than the S & G electronic apparently he has yet to see a S & G electronic last more then 5 or 6 years before they poop out.

[Winger Ed.]

The second time he suggested the S &G dial rather than the S & G electronic apparently he has yet to see a S & G electronic last more then 5 or 6 years before they poop out.

The best electronic lock in the industry is a AMSEC in the ESL-10 or ESL-20.
The ESL-10 is the pretty, home owner version and is cheaper the the ESL-20 commercial version that has several
more features like time delay, multiple combinations, requiring 2 combinations to be used, etc.
Even with them, I wouldn't trust one for more than 7-8 years.

We had 3-4 people at the customer service desk, and the phone never stopped ringing.
I asked one of the reps one time how many calls they had for the spin dials.
He told me they had 4-5 a month where someone had lost the combination and needed a locksmith to drill it,
it had been in a fire or flood and got jammed up from the heat or corrosion, or a bad guy had slege hammered it all
up and they needed the safe opened to put their stuff in a new one..

[BD]

Thanks!

[lancem]

Is there a way to remove that door back without wrecking it? I haven't found anything on line.

Mine has the usual pockets, elastic on the door back. My door back is inset in the door. I just have to lift straight up on the door back to disengage the bottom, then down and away. hope that makes sense.

[Winger Ed.]

I've had my "National" safe (with an S&G spin-dial) for 33 or 34 years. Rather than remove the liner to check the key hole, can I safely assume that it's the real thing rather than a Chinese knock-off?

Bill

I'd say you have the real deal. A cheap knock off wouldn't have lasted that long.

[JimB..]

apparently he has yet to see a S & G electronic last more then 5 or 6 years before they poop out.

I think I got mine in 2005, still going strong. Thinking about replacing it, but don’t think it’ urgent.

[jimlj]

Hey Winger, do you happen to have a part number for an S&G spin dial lock to replace an electronic lock on a safe I have sitting in a hot garage in Nevada? I worry that one winter when I head south it won't open.

[Winger Ed.]

Hey Winger, do you happen to have a part number for an S&G spin dial lock to replace an electronic lock on a safe I have sitting in a hot garage in Nevada? I worry that one winter when I head south it won't open.

Do a quickie search for 'Sergeant & Greenleaf 6730-100 lock'
It'll take you to the whole kit: the lock, dial & ring, the correct mounting screws,
full set of instructions and a change key. The first one that comes up is $168.oo.
Ya might find it cheaper, but I didn't look around.

Amazon has just the lock & dial ring for $90-something. but no change key. It's $24.oo separately.
Also, that deal doesn't come with instruction sheets, and maybe not the mounting screws.
But you can dig around the internet and find PDFs of them. The thread for the screws is 1/4-20.
The ones for the dial ring are 8-32.

The retrofit kit is 'plug and play', everything you'll need for the swap.
The screw holes and lock plate location on the door is the same for all of the safes and locks both.
100% interchangeability.. all the mounting holes for the front of the door and lock base will jive up.

If you've never done one, cutting the dial stem to length and engaging the spline key may be a little
intimidating, but just read through the directions a couple times and go slowly,,, it's no big deal.

If ya want a high quality electronic, my favorite for home use is a AMSEC ESL-10.
The entire retrofit kit runs a bit over $200.oo on Amazon.
And be advised-- it does have a over ride code assigned to its serial number at the factory.
Its a foil sticker under the key pad. You'll see it when ya change batteries.
For a little peace of mind,, you can peel it off.

But that just gets ya back to if Law Enforcement (legally) really wants in it--
You can open it for them, or they'll borrow that gas engine saw thing from the Fire Dept.

[lightman]

I have had both of my safes longer than we've been in bed with china. Hopefully they are the real deal. I'm not going to look because I mounted a piece of peg board on the back of the door to hang pistols on.

Thanks for its informative post!

[JimB..]

Do a quickie search for 'Sergeant & Greenleaf 6730-100 lock'

Thanks.
Do you prefer the front read over the top read, or is it just what most folks are used to?

[Winger Ed.]

Thanks.
Do you prefer the front read over the top read, or is it just what most folks are used to?

You can attach the dial and ring at any 90 degree interval and the numbers will jive up
with the index points on the drive wheel inside the lock.
But; All I've ever seen, or done to set one up is where where the index lines were at the top,
and you read the dial numbers looking straight across or down at them.

I guess they're all set up that way for conveinence so ya don't have to crane your head around to see it.

[armoredman]

Mine is well over ten years old, and I don't know how to get that inner cover off, gonna have to go with "hope so'. I emailed the place I bought it and asked if I could upgrade dials/locks - chirping crickets, of course.

[JimB..]

You can attach the dial and ring at any 90 degree interval and the numbers will jive up
with the index points on the drive wheel inside the lock.
But; All I've ever seen, or done to set one up is where where the index lines were at the top,
and you read the dial numbers looking straight across or down at them.

I guess they're all set up that way for conveinence so ya don't have to crane your head around to see it.

That I get, but that’s all with a front reading dial. Take a look at 6730-200. Here is one, it is not priced well. https://safeandlockstore.com/sargent-greenleaf-2937-200-safe-lock-package/
I assume it’s all the same guts, so same quality. I ask because I think I like the idea but have never had one.

[Winger Ed.]

That I get, but that’s all with a front reading dial. Take a look at 6730-200. Here is one, it is not priced well. https://safeandlockstore.com/sargent-greenleaf-2937-200-safe-lock-package/
I assume it’s all the same guts, so same quality. I ask because I think I like the idea but have never had one.

That is more or less the same as the common -100 lock.
However; it has some extra features.
For being so well built and with a rather limited production, that price is about what you'd expect.

It's called 'manipulation proof'. They are used on big, high security safes like a jewelry store would have
that has a few million dollars worth of inventory stored in it at night.
The govt. buys a few of them too, mostly for the super tough file cabinets with highly classified stuff in them.
They're probably used where they keep all the UFO and Kennedy assination secrets:bigsmyl2:

Look at pictures of the -100s. There is hook that follows and gently rides the 3 wheels. When the combination is done, it drops into the notches or the gate of the wheels that hold the combination numbers.

The -200s have some more parts in there that pick that little arm up off the wheels when the lock is 'locked'.
On -100s, with skill, and lots of practice, a few people can feel the hook sort of skip when the it passes over a gate
in a wheel. If you are good, and know the lock- you can figure out the combination from that.


On the -100, when you do the combination, the little bar drops into the opening or gates on the combo. wheels.
Then you turn it back past 0, and you can feel the bar lift up, pulling the locking bolt up.

On the -200, the bar is lifted up off the combo wheels.
So when you do the combination (correctly),,, you turn the dial back to '0'.
It is spring loaded, and you push it in. Then the bar drops into place in the gates,
and you can now turn it on back towards 90, lifting the actual locking bolt on the lock to open the safe.

As I've said before, the few people that can manipulate a safe lock---
they won't come to your place looking a few Silver Dollars and Grandpa's old Winchester .30-30.
They'll be down at a jewelry store going after a few million dollars for a couple hours of work.

[JimB..]

That is more or less the same as the common -100 lock.
However; it has some extra features.
For being so well built and with a rather limited production, that price is about what you'd expect.

It's called 'manipulation proof'. They are used on big, high security safes like a jewelry store would have
that has a few million dollars worth of inventory stored in it at night.
The govt. buys a few of them too, mostly for the super tough file cabinets with highly classified stuff in them.
They're probably used where they keep all the UFO and Kennedy assination secrets:bigsmyl2:

Look at pictures of the -100s. There is hook that follows and gently rides the 3 wheels. When the combination is done, it drops into the notches or the gate of the wheels that hold the combination numbers.

The -200s have some more parts in there that pick that little arm up off the wheels when the lock is 'locked'.
On -100s, with skill, and lots of practice, a few people can feel the hook sort of skip when the it passes over a gate
in a wheel. If you are good, and know the lock- you can figure out the combination from that.


On the -100, when you do the combination, the little bar drops into the opening or gates on the combo. wheels.
Then you turn it back past 0, and you can feel the bar lift up, pulling the locking bolt up.

On the -200, the bar is lifted up off the combo wheels.
So when you do the combination (correctly),,, you turn the dial back to '0'.
It is spring loaded, and you push it in. Then the bar drops into place in the gates,
and you can now turn it on back towards 90, lifting the actual locking bolt on the lock to open the safe.

As I've said before, the few people that can manipulate a safe lock---
they won't come to your place looking a few Silver Dollars and Grandpa's old Winchester .30-30.
They'll be down at a jewelry store going after a few million dollars for a couple hours of work.

THANKS. I didn’t realize that they were so different. I’m happy with the security provided by the -100.

[Winger Ed.]

THANKS. I didn’t realize that they were so different. I’m happy with the security provided by the -100.

I'm glad folks enjoyed the thread, and hopefully learned something, or set aside their fears and concerns.

When I was in the industry, one of our policies was that we never sold a used lock, even on a used safe.
I could have snagged anything for free, but never did, a -200MP, or a 4 wheel MP, S&G even has some
that the wheels are nylon. They can't be x-rayed to find the combo, and if they get hot, they just melt.

If ya go to the S&G home page, you can find what the inside of MP locks look like in their 8000 series.
They're like the -200s but with a couple more features like giving false feelings when trying manipulate them.


I'm perfectly content with the couple of -100s I kept for myself.
As they age, they seem to get smoother and 'slicker' too.
I have a well used -100 on my gun safe that is at least 40 years old.
It seems to be smoother than when I put on almost 20 years ago.

[Thundarstick]

I have a S&G spin dial lock on my "residential safety container" that gets opened at least once a day, sometimes more. It's around 15 years old and is smooth as butter. BTW I change the combo every few years, and keep the combination as a secret code phone number in my phone directory. There just not that hard to learn to use fast, but my wife can't open it, even with me standing there telling her what to do!

[Winger Ed.]

but my wife can't open it, even with me standing there telling her what to do!

Being in the industry, used safes sort of come to you. Some we were well paid to make disappear.
Damaged ones, 'left behinds' when people move, etc. Most that could be rebuilt.
There isn't too much involved with rebuilding one--- it isn't much more than a box with a door on it.

Mrs. Winger kept 'needing' to put stuff in my gun safe.... but couldn't work the spin dial-- or more nearly wouldn't learn it.
So I snagged and rebuilt one she could have for her own, and put a AMSEC ESL electronic lock on it.
Then, after 6-7 years, grind my teeth when its working fine,,,,,, pull it off and replace it.

[jimlj]

kept 'needing' to put stuff in my gun safe.... but couldn't work the spin dial-- or more nearly wouldn't learn it.
I feel your pain.

BTW, informative thread. Thanks

[pipehand]

Ed, It's beenover 20 years since I was a professional safe tech, and that was before the electronic locks became common. I have done some work on the Mas-Hamiltons. Even they need to be drilled ocassionally.
Is the "cheap chinese knock off" you refer to a LaGarde? I didnt know they had shipped production to China. I never had any more problems with them than the S&Gs but the S&Gs just feel better.
Your post brought back memories. Clackety clack manipulation resistant Mosler locks.
Some of the odder government contract stuff. If you have access to the older NSO and Savta magazines, 5 or 6 articles were authored by me. I enjoyed the mechanical challenge, but the money wasnt that good as I was working for someone else. I also figured out I didn't like having to react to everyone else's emergencies.

[Winger Ed.]

Is the "cheap chinese knock off" you refer to a LaGarde? I didnt know they had shipped production to China.

I couldn't remember that name to save my life.

The ones we got in by the thousands were a knock off of them, not a forgery of an S&G.
They did take a LaGarde change key though.

I never even looked at the brand name on them. We'd sit at a 20' table with a row of new safes on it, and zip
them off with screw guns. When the last screw of the lock body came out, we'd flip it into a 5 gal. bucket on the floor.
Slide the bucket and your chair to the next one.

We did buy a lot of LaGarde electronic swing bolt locks, and their key locks that took the round shaft key.
Never a combination spin dial from them though. I don't know why, we just didn't.
I never even looked at the LaGardes to see where they were made. I think I have one of their key locks
somewhere, I'll dig it out and look.


It was a hoot to watch a new kid putting on their first lock, and go through the install so carefully,
test it a few times, and before they closed the door, call me to look at it.
They'd typically say, "Hey, will you take a look at this? Is it right, or what"?

I'd look it over, get a real serious expression, and tell 'em
"Well,,,ahhh,,, , I'm leaning towards "Or what'".

The blood would go out of their face,,,, and then I tell 'em,
"Nah. it's good.... In fact, now you're qualified to teach this class".

[armoredman]

I can say my safe supplier got back with me, even though it's been 13 years since I bought it, and said they could do upgrades, no problem.

[Winger Ed.]

I can say my safe supplier got back with me, even though it's been 13 years since I bought it, and said they could do upgrades, no problem.

That's good. It tells ya they are a reputable outfit and have at least one old gu-ru locksmith on staff.

They had to pull out a fat check book,,,,, but we had one that they'd put on a plane
and send all over for things nobody else could,
or would do without making a mess.

[PhilC]

Chose not to "upgrade" to electronic when I bought my Superior Master, S&G II was just fine by me.