38 Special Bear Defense Load

[MSD MIke]

Just kidding.
I just read a what oil to use thread on a motorcycle forum and thought I would come over here to share the love.

[sigep1764]

2.8 grains of Red Dot and the Lee 356-90RF should do it. Let's not waste powder and lead lol

[MT Gianni]

How long of a barrel? Are you sticking it in the bears eye, against the roof of his mouth or in his ear?






Synthetic 20W-40W will always figure in a good lube.

[atfsux]

Plain old 158 grain SWC for maximum penetration. Just make sure you only use the first five on the bear so you have the last one for yourself.

[country gent]

any load wil do but lube it with bacon grease and donut glaze, whenn a bear attacks thriw itt down and run away while it eats it

[Mk42gunner]

Most any .38 Special load should work as well as the mighty (cough) .25 ACP in slowing down your companion during bear attack.

Robert

[white eagle]

22 lr for bear defense is the best thing going
light and easy to carry and packs more into a clip
maximum fire power

[RayinNH]

All very good suggestions :p

[Outpost75]

There was an article in Outdoor Life in the 50s or 60s by Ben East entitled "Handgun Versus A Brownie." It related a true story of a wildlife photographer in Alaska who successfully repelled a brown bear attack with a 6-inch Colt Official Police shooting Super--X 158-grain lead round nosed .38-44 loads which gave about 1125 fps from a 6- inch revolver. IIRC the fellow was a WW2 combat vet and ex-cop who calmly engaged the charging bear at hot breath distance putting rounds into the eye sockets, up the nostrils and into the soft pallet of the open mouth, dumping six rounds rapidly double action. The bear knocked him down and laid dead on top of him!

[M-Tecs]

Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attacks 104 cases, 97% Effective

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/#axzz8DLR2jzMs

[Three44s]

I was thinking it was a load for a bear to pack in defense against humans!

Three44s

[scattershot]

Whatever load you decide on, just be sure to file the front sight smooth. It will hurt less that way when the bear sticks it where the sun don’t shine.

[reddog81]

I use something less powerful. That load might over penetrate and kill a baby hiding behind the bear.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attacks 104 cases, 97% Effective

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/#axzz8DLR2jzMs

The cynical or ignorant person strolling through the data might come to the conclusion that (1) 44 magnums attract bears -- used in 30 of the 104 cases, and (2) 45 Super is far less of an attractant -- only used in 1 of the 104 documented cases.
Since I didn't see 375 Supermag, would this be a better choice yet? :)

Pure snark here -- just an illustration of how to not use information with existing biases...

[charlie b]

I want to know more about motorcycle oil. Vtwin or inline? Wet or dry clutch? Old or new? Synthetic or dino? And the added controversy, how often do you change it?!!!! :)

Heck, if a puny 9mm can kill a grizzly why not a .38? :) Me? I just avoid Grizzly country when on foot.

[atfsux]

The cynical or ignorant person strolling through the data might come to the conclusion that (1) 44 magnums attract bears -- used in 30 of the 104 cases, and (2) 45 Super is far less of an attractant -- only used in 1 of the 104 documented cases.
Since I didn't see 375 Supermag, would this be a better choice yet? :)

Pure snark here -- just an illustration of how to not use information with existing biases...

For me, the data reinforces the first rule of any gunfight;..."HAVE A GUN". While not the best option, even the .22s made a difference!

[Thumbcocker]

Almost any .38 special load will work when fired from inside the bear.

[MSD MIke]

I want to know more about motorcycle oil. Vtwin or inline? Wet or dry clutch? Old or new? Synthetic or dino? And the added controversy, how often do you change it?!!!! :)

Heck, if a puny 9mm can kill a grizzly why not a .38? :) Me? I just avoid Grizzly country when on foot.

Two stroke oil of course.

[MSD MIke]

Almost any .38 special load will work when fired from inside the bear.

Lol

[Doughty]

News reports indicate that in the incident Rudy Noorlander had this week with a grizzly, that the revolver he was carrying "misfired." Anybody know what that revolver was?

[justindad]

I use something less powerful. That load might over penetrate and kill a baby hiding behind the bear.

That reminds me of something… why don’t rifles over penetrate?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The answer is in how you read the question. Personally, I doubt if bears need defense loads, as they are big, with teeth and claws. ;-)

DG

[44Blam]

So - not a 38 special load, but I have some HP GC boolits that are in the 158 grain range that I think I'm gonna try out in the 350 legend... I do load these in 38 special and they are going a modest 750 or so fps. But a 30 round magazine and a gun sending 150 grain boolits at 2100-2200 fps should stop a bear...

[45DUDE]

With 38 special you may as well shoot in the air and see what happens.:violin:

[mehavey]

Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attacks 104 cases, 97% Effective
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/8120CWiXfJL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg

[bedbugbilly]

If it were me, I think I would just carry some of my 38 Colt Short loads . . . . they take up less room in your pocket which leaves more room to carry more toilet paper . . . just in case you do run into a bear . . . . :-)

[Shanghai Jack]

<tongue in cheek mode on> Reload the case to the brim with VV310 and give it to the bear to fire.

On a separate note - If attacked by a bear, play dead. It's good practice for when it kills you 5 seconds later.

[Frank V]

Oh boy, pass the popcorn!!!!!:coffee::coffee:

[JSnover]

Wait till he opens wide to eat you... then shove the barrel in his mouth and pull the trigger; make it look like a suicide ;)

[jonp]

I've found that a 140gr dewc with red dot works fine if you wait out the charge till the last moment then somersault onto it's back and fire into it's ear riding it to the ground like a bucking bronco. After much experimenting I found a 5 shot Chiefs Special works the best as the short barrel is easier to get into the ear so you don't have to latch onto the other one with your teeth to keep its head steady. Lots of ticks in the ears so try not to do that.
I must point out a caution, though. If he is real rambunctious you might have to clamp onto that left ear (if right handed) and reach under with your right and muckle onto the family jewels to show who's boss and settle him down. Just get over it and get it done. If it's a sow your on your own as I've not been charged by one. I heard that using your Indiana Jones bullwhip, you always carry one, right?, to keep the ride going and just tire her out works but that was told to me over a fire in Siberia by a guy I'm not sure I trusted as he had a predilection for exaggeration. He spun a wild tale after much vodka of taking Stalin hunting. When a bear charged Stalin he froze so this guy jumped on and finding out it was female yanked out the whip and they went in circles. Told me Stalin threw himself on the ground and cried like a Nancy watching him subdue the Brown. Seriously, Stalin crying? Oy...
Use that method at your discretion

I've used my method on a number of blacks, griz and browns. Always works for me

[Super Sneaky Steve]

The old 200gr boolit over real black powder is the best load, to shoot your buddy in the knee with.

After that you should be able to out run him.

[Bigslug]

I've loaded the Lyman 358430 (195gr RN) in the Special at a pokey 570fps in one of my earlier efforts to simulate the old British .38/200 load. It penetrated 18" of calibrated FBI-spec Jell-O in a nice straight line. It could be thrown faster. If one is assuming ANY handgun has a reasonable chance of stopping a large carnivore fast enough to save your skin, there are worse combinations to kid yourself with.

[MT Gianni]

I've found that a 140gr dewc with red dot works fine if you wait out the charge till the last moment then somersault onto it's back and fire into it's ear riding it to the ground like a bucking bronco. After much experimenting I found a 5 shot Chiefs Special works the best as the short barrel is easier to get into the ear so you don't have to latch onto the other one with your teeth to keep its head steady. Lots of ticks in the ears so try not to do that.
I must point out a caution, though. If he is real rambunctious you might have to clamp onto that left ear (if right handed) and reach under with your right and muckle onto the family jewels to show who's boss and settle him down. Just get over it and get it done. If it's a sow your on your own as I've not been charged by one. I heard that using your Indiana Jones bullwhip, you always carry one, right?, to keep the ride going and just tire her out works but that was told to me over a fire in Siberia by a guy I'm not sure I trusted as he had a predilection for exaggeration. He spun a wild tale after much vodka of taking Stalin hunting. When a bear charged Stalin he froze so this guy jumped on and finding out it was female yanked out the whip and they went in circles. Told me Stalin threw himself on the ground and cried like a Nancy watching him subdue the Brown. Seriously, Stalin crying? Oy...
Use that method at your discretion

I've used my method on a number of blacks, griz and browns. Always works for me

I don't know Jon, I have a tendency to grab both ears and might forget to remove my off hand when I shoot.

[lightload]

Keith 358429 and 7 grains of Unique might work but falls into the excessive pressure and irresponsible category though Elmer recommended this bullet with 8 grains of Unique. I saw a bear in the zoo. That's my experience.

[Thumbcocker]

I've found that a 140gr dewc with red dot works fine if you wait out the charge till the last moment then somersault onto it's back and fire into it's ear riding it to the ground like a bucking bronco. After much experimenting I found a 5 shot Chiefs Special works the best as the short barrel is easier to get into the ear so you don't have to latch onto the other one with your teeth to keep its head steady. Lots of ticks in the ears so try not to do that.
I must point out a caution, though. If he is real rambunctious you might have to clamp onto that left ear (if right handed) and reach under with your right and muckle onto the family jewels to show who's boss and settle him down. Just get over it and get it done. If it's a sow your on your own as I've not been charged by one. I heard that using your Indiana Jones bullwhip, you always carry one, right?, to keep the ride going and just tire her out works but that was told to me over a fire in Siberia by a guy I'm not sure I trusted as he had a predilection for exaggeration. He spun a wild tale after much vodka of taking Stalin hunting. When a bear charged Stalin he froze so this guy jumped on and finding out it was female yanked out the whip and they went in circles. Told me Stalin threw himself on the ground and cried like a Nancy watching him subdue the Brown. Seriously, Stalin crying? Oy...
Use that method at your discretion

I've used my method on a number of blacks, griz and browns. Always works for me

Does the bear ear wax increase the velocity out of the Chief's special?

[Dancing Bear]

Most any .38 Special load should work as well as the mighty (cough) .25 ACP in slowing down your companion during bear attack.

Robert

When an acquittance questioned my 9mm for bear defense I told him it wasn't for shooting the bear but to slow him down. He was quite after that.

[Three44s]

Seriously though, where 9mm has worked, and trust me as I believe in 44s and 480s ..... a properly loaded 38 would be a better choice than a 9mm except for round count.

The Chief Special and a heavy framed 38 like the Outdoorsman can handle some pretty rambunctious loads, the Outdoorsman being the inspiration for the creation of the 357 magnum cartridge.

If I was charged while only packing a 38, that is what I would use.

If I was out with Joesph Stalin and only had a bull whip I would try it on the bear. If it did p not turn it away, I would use it on "Joe" to get him runnin'........ the bear would focus on him whilst I slipped away.

Three44s

[Shawlerbrook]

Any load will do to put you out of your misery before the bear makes you it’s lunch.

[mr surveyor]

I feel sorry for all y'all that still have to worry about bear encounters and caliber choices. Back when I was a kid here in the Stumpwater area of NE Texas we eradicated the entire population of bears (and lions, tigers, elephants, etc) with our finely tuned Daisy BB guns. I've felt so safe for the last 60 years that I even leave the house without my Daisy.

[John in WYO]

I used a Chiefs Special against a grizzly.
ONCE!
Never again!
Took jonp’s advice and stuck it deep in its ear and pulled the trigger.
The exposed hammer was so deep in the ear canal it got hung up and the gun couldn’t fire.��
Now I use a Centennial with an internal hammer.

[Bigslug]

I used a Chiefs Special against a grizzly.
ONCE!
Never again!
Took jonp’s advice and stuck it deep in its ear and pulled the trigger.
The exposed hammer was so deep in the ear canal it got hung up and the gun couldn’t fire.��
Now I use a Centennial with an internal hammer.

But do you use the same technique for Texas heart shots?

[405grain]

Let's look at this scientifically: Cavemen used to take long, straight sticks and either use fire to make it pointy, or else strap a sharp rock on the end of it. Archeological evidence has shown that cavemen have used these spears to kill bears. There is no evidence in the archeological record for cavemen using the 38 special to kill bears. This means that, if attacked by a bear, a sharp stick would be superior to the 38 special.

[Bigslug]

Let's look at this scientifically: Cavemen used to take long, straight sticks and either use fire to make it pointy, or else strap a sharp rock on the end of it. Archeological evidence has shown that cavemen have used these spears to kill bears. There is no evidence in the archeological record for cavemen using the 38 special to kill bears. This means that, if attacked by a bear, a sharp stick would be superior to the 38 special.

There was likely an economic component to that: I just went into Sportsman's Warehouse where 158 grain LRN ammo was being sold for $0.64 a round. For that kind of price, I'd probably choose the sharp stick too. . .and caveman times were HARD.

[budman5]

Just use wadcutters
The sharp edges will do massive damage

[popper]

An Alaska fishing guide only had a 22 revolver in his boat when attacked by grizzly, emptied it but he died. IIRC others in the party survived and bear found later, dead.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK I haven't replied to this thread yet because of all the wonderful responses indicating the folly, which I actually agreed with. (Proper Handgun Calibers all start with a .4!).

Then I got my new copy of Handloader Mag.

There is an article in it about the new Kimber .38/.357 Wheel gun they are making. In that article there was .38 Special +P handloads that duplicated .357 loads. It turns out that Elmer Keith invented the .357 by loading .38 Specials up to +P for use in his 38/44 Revolvers. (.38's built on N Frames.) Turns out that lengthening the case was only done to prevent .357's from being loaded into Older Weaker Revolvers.

So conceivably, You could load your .38 Specials up to .357 levels with like 173gr or 200 gr SWC's, Keeping in mind the strength of your gun needs to be high so as not to blow it up !!! Some think a .357 is adequate Bear Medicine? and if that is true then the .38 Special could be loaded up hot enough to deal with them? Right? Maybe?

I personally would prefer a Shotgun with Slugs, but that's just me. In Churchill Manitoba at the bottom of the Hudson Bay where all the Polar Bears go in the summer to hang out, all the Polar Bear Guides carry 12 ga. Pump Guns loaded with Brenneke Slugs as back ups. I'd want my .44 SBH strapped on too, just in case?

Randy

[M-Tecs]

An Alaska fishing guide only had a 22 revolver in his boat when attacked by grizzly, emptied it but he died. IIRC others in the party survived and bear found later, dead.

Any idea when that happened or more details. I am not finding any matches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

[charlie b]

OK I haven't replied to this thread yet because of all the wonderful responses indicating the folly, which I actually agreed with. (Proper Handgun Calibers all start with a .4!).

Then I got my new copy of Handloader Mag.

There is an article in it about the new Kimber .38/.357 Wheel gun they are making. In that article there was .38 Special +P handloads that duplicated .357 loads. It turns out that Elmer Keith invented the .357 by loading .38 Specials up to +P for use in his 38/44 Revolvers. (.38's built on N Frames.) Turns out that lengthening the case was only done to prevent .357's from being loaded into Older Weaker Revolvers.

So conceivably, You could load your .38 Specials up to .357 levels with like 173gr or 200 gr SWC's, Keeping in mind the strength of your gun needs to be high so as not to blow it up !!! Some think a .357 is adequate Bear Medicine? and if that is true then the .38 Special could be loaded up hot enough to deal with them? Right? Maybe?

I personally would prefer a Shotgun with Slugs, but that's just me. In Churchill Manitoba at the bottom of the Hudson Bay where all the Polar Bears go in the summer to hang out, all the Polar Bear Guides carry 12 ga. Pump Guns loaded with Brenneke Slugs as back ups. I'd want my .44 SBH strapped on too, just in case?

Randy

Loading up the .38 is conceivable....IF...the pistol is strong enough. I'd be careful loading some of the alloy frame guns with those loads, especially if they have shorter chambers.

FWIW, I have fired many heavy (almost .357) loads out of .38spl brass in my .357mag pistol. There used to be several .357 molds with two crimp grooves, one for loading long in .38spl brass and one for 'std' loading.

[Shanghai Jack]

Does the bear ear wax increase the velocity out of the Chief's special?

Makes it slide in easier.

[barnetmill]

For me, the data reinforces the first rule of any gunfight;..."HAVE A GUN". While not the best option, even the .22s made a difference!

I have read of a native american in canada that always carried a .22 colt woodsman in a pocket sown into his pants. He was investigating a commotion in his smokehouse thinking it was his brother in law and a black bear came charging out through the screen dr with the door coming off the hinges on to the man with the charging bear running on top. He is said to have fired killing the bear. Old story and it might be true.

[M-Tecs]

Bella Twin is my favorite documented 22LR kill.

http://bear-hunting.com/2022/7/grizzly-with-a-22-c

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella-twin-the-22-used-to-take-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/#axzz8DinOCiSt

[barnetmill]

Bella Twin is my favorite documented 22LR kill.

http://bear-hunting.com/2022/7/grizzly-with-a-22-c

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella-twin-the-22-used-to-take-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/#axzz8DinOCiSt

Quite a story and a beat up iron sight .22 single shot made in canada. The picture of that skull was really something.

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella-twin-the-22-used-to-take-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/#ixzz8Diw5bgM5
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

. Bella Twin is specifically recorded as reporting that she shot it with .22 Longs, not Shorts, not Long Rifles. I recall that into the 1960’s Longs were more expensive than shorts, but cheaper than Long Rifle ammunition.

https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Bella-Twin-Bear-Scull-with-date-horizonta.jpg

https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Bella-Twin-Cooey-Ace-1-Rifle-used-to-Kill-1953-World-Record-Grizzly.jpg

[Chill Wills]

Here is an old thread you may find interesting.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?404257-Handgun-for-a-lower-48-black-bear-encounter&highlight=bear+38+special

[Leatherbark]

If I were to use a 38 Special to shoot a large brown bear, I would use a hard cast (linotype?) Keith 168/170/173 over the heaviest dose of Unique I think my revolver could handle. I would want to use at least a 4-inch barrel. I would practice fast aimed shots with it. Aim for the eyeballs if you have time. If I was successful, I would ask someone for a cigar and a sip of whiskey and a cup of black coffee and lay back against a tree and think how Elmer would have been proud of you.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would only try the +P .38's in a .357 revolver, that's what I meant when I said "Strong Revolver." Plenty of new .357 3 and 4" revolvers out there. just look at the Ruger or S&W catalogs.

But like I said earlier, proper Handgun calibers all start with a .4 so I'd look at the same catalogs and find a .44 Spec or Magnum like a S&W M69 or Ruger GP100/44 before I'd buy a new .357 for that specific use.

Then I'd go to a few of Defensive Handgun Classes where I shot 200 rounds a day from the Holster, and get really good at my presentation and accuracy.

Only then would I feel confident carrying a Pistol for Bear Defense, and I'd still carry a Shotgun as well !!!

Randy

[Skipper]

38 Special bear defense load?.......

318091

[Sam Sackett]

38 Special bear defense load?.......

318091


Yep. I don’t know I’d enter a gunfight with only a knife. I also would not knowingly go into an area that I would expect to have to confront a bear with only a 38 Special, no matter how you load it.

Maybe I’m just a chicken at heart. ………

Sam Sackett

[MSD MIke]

I love how a satirical thread almost drifts into the serious. Human nature is fun. I'm not that fast anymore so I think I would have to take out BOTH knees of my partner to give me the best chance of escape. .

Mike

[foesgth]

Let's look at this scientifically: Cavemen used to take long, straight sticks and either use fire to make it pointy, or else strap a sharp rock on the end of it. Archeological evidence has shown that cavemen have used these spears to kill bears. There is no evidence in the archeological record for cavemen using the 38 special to kill bears. This means that, if attacked by a bear, a sharp stick would be superior to the 38 special.

I have checked all of my reloading manuals and can't find any loads for sharp stick. Are they loaded to max length or set like wad cutters? Also should sharp sticks be sized over or under bore size? I had some 7.62x39 rounds that were loaded with wooden bullets. They were marked as blanks I didn't know they were bear rounds.

[barnetmill]

I have checked all of my reloading manuals and can't find any loads for sharp stick. Are they loaded to max length or set like wad cutters? Also should sharp sticks be sized over or under bore size? I had some 7.62x39 rounds that were loaded with wooden bullets. They were marked as blanks I didn't know they were bear rounds.

I have seen a gunsmith modify a single shot .22 for two would be professional gator hunters some years ago. He bored it out to take or accept an arrow down the muzzle and .22 power charges were used to propel it. There are definitely somewhere loads for the greener converted harpoon guns.

[Skipper]

I had some 7.62x39 rounds that were loaded with wooden bullets. They were marked as blanks I didn't know they were bear rounds.

Probably vampire rounds :-P

[farmbif]

reading this I cant stop thinking about the Hugh glass bear encounter in 1823

[atr]

I did once scare off a large male black bear with a .22 pistol, by shooting it into the air. I would have been toast if the bear had decided to attack me rather than running up the hill away from me.

[Recycled bullet]

38 special Bear defense load. Well at least it's loaded in 38 special brass [emoji56]318119

Sent from my moto g power (2022) using Tapatalk

[murf205]

I used a Ford F-250. While I was throwing a Hefty garbage bag full of our "after work" party remains onto the dump in Prudhoe BaY, Ak, I must have got close to a big griz who was having dinner at the dump, that I didn't notice with my hangover. I was in the bed of a 4x4 truck and when he stood up to roar and scare the do-do out of me, we were eye to eye. I pounded on the cab and told the driver to get us outa' there. If I'da only had a 38!!

[murf205]

News reports indicate that in the incident Rudy Noorlander had this week with a grizzly, that the revolver he was carrying "misfired." Anybody know what that revolver was?

I wondered the same thing. I'd like to know the circumstances behind "misfired"

[Sig556r]

reading this I cant stop thinking about the Hugh glass bear encounter in 1823
Reminds me of the movie Revenant as well…

[bowfin]

.38 Special is overkill for those who know what they are doing. :-D

This woman (young girl at the time) used a single shot .22 and .22 long ammunition to get her bearskin rug from the world record Grizzly Bear at the time:
318405

The woman's name was Bella Twin. Her story can be found here:

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella-twin-the-22-used-to-take-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/#axzz8EiMeUuzx

[TurnipEaterDown]

That's why I make sure I have my fingernails and teeth ready in bear territory -- clearly worked for our cavemen ancestors...

[WRideout]

The late beloved Jack O'Connor once wrote about the legend of the Indian killing great bears with a .22 rimfire. He offered the opinion that the Indian has much more sang froid than the average city dude hunting in the wilderness for the first time.

Wayne

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Surely better than nothing. 158 gr. #2 alloy wfp pushed as fast as is safe in your firearm. I remember watching a bear hunting video from Alaska where the guide warned the client to be quiet after the shot because if the bear knew where the hurt came from he would come for you. he would certainly know where the hurt came from using a 38.