1873 Wincester 44 W.C.F Loads

[Trimble]

I’ve been asked to load some rounds for an original 1873 in 44-40. If I were to do BP, I’d probably go with 30 gr of FFF Goex, a filler, and a 210 gr soft lead bullet. However, with a valuable antique I’d like to have a good clean and low pressure load with a modern powder. Unfortunately N32C is discontinued. My father in law has 1 lb of Trail boss I could probably convince him to part ways with (I did take his PITA daughter off his hands after all.) :-D Any advice on powder and load data is appreciated.

[Wayne Smith]

Trail is not a low pressure powder! I shoot mine (not original) with about 36gr Goex and a big lube boolit of 200 gr. Yes, it is soft lead as well, but that is not necessary with my guns. Make sure your boolit has adequate lube if you go with BP.

Yes, you want a soft lead boolit with an antique.

[Outpost75]

16.5 grs Alliant #2400 w/200-gr #427666 1232 fps 12,800 cup Lyman CB Hndbk 4th Ed. p.208
17 grains IMR4227 1310 fps 12,600 cup Lyman Cast. Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) p.208
More tested Group 1 loads in this manual with Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X, Unique

[Trimble]

I only mention Trail Boss because I know a lot of SASS guys like it for their cowboy loads. I’ve got felt to make wads and can lube them. Also have a pan set up to pan lube with.

[Trimble]

16.5 grs Alliant #2400 w/200-gr #427666 1232 fps 12,800 cup Lyman CB Hndbk 4th Ed. p.208
17 grains IMR4227 1310 fps 12,600 cup Lyman Cast. Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) p.208
More tested Group 1 loads in this manual with Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X, Unique

You have chamber pressures for these loads?

[Outpost75]

You have chamber pressures for these loads?

Yes! Go to The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition, (2010) p. 208 and pressures are listed. The Group 1 loads for Winchester 1873 Do not exceed 13,000 cup.

Loads I posted I listed pressures.

[gpidaho]

Trmible: Outpost 75 is trying to help you out. Take my word for it, He knows what he's talking about. You would be well served to purchase the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4. Another very informative reference is Cast Bullets for Beginner & Expert by Joseph F. Brennan Jr. Gp

[Trimble]

Yes! Go to The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition, (2010) p. 208 and pressures are listed. The Group 1 loads for Winchester 1873 Do not exceed 13,000 cup.

Loads I posted I listed pressures.

I appreciate it. I’ll have to get a copy of that book.

[Tall]

I just loaded some 44 WCF yesterday. The load I used is 6.4 grains of Green Dot under a 200 grain lead plated flat nose bullet from Extreme. Alliant says 6.6 grains is 12.6 thousand K PSI so it's a very mild load.

https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Vendor%20Supplied%20Load%20Data/Alliant%20Powder%20Reloaders%20Guide%20-%202005.pdf

[BoBSavage]

Aside from "Antiques";

Contrary to popular belief, the Winchester 73' was approved for use with smokeless powder by Winchester in 1894....and ever since. This is not just true with the Winchester 73', nor just the 44-40 cartridge.

[smkummer]

I’m using a starting load of 700X published at 7800 psi or cup in my original 1875 Remington. Works fine. I also use that load in my New Henry Arms 1860 as a cowboy load.

[Carrier]

Stick with black powder. It would be a shame if a mistake was made and that antique was damaged.

[Tall]

I’ve been asked to load some rounds for an original 1873 in 44-40. If I were to do BP, I’d probably go with 30 gr of FFF Goex, a filler, and a 210 gr soft lead bullet. However, with a valuable antique I’d like to have a good clean and low pressure load with a modern powder. Unfortunately N32C is discontinued. My father in law has 1 lb of Trail boss I could probably convince him to part ways with (I did take his PITA daughter off his hands after all.) :-D Any advice on powder and load data is appreciated.unavailable for many year

Trail Boss has been unavailable for many years so that is sort of a collectors item. It's also a pretty high pressre powder. I would not use it in a 44 WCF. See the graphs here:
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40

[veeman]

Been using Trail Boss in my 44-40 guns for years. Granted, not original old guns, rather Uberti and newish Colts. Never had a problem with it, light loads.

[RyanJames170]

You would need to do some digging on the form but I remember someone posting about using slower burning pistol powders in original BP rifles as it’s pressure curve is more Gradual like actual BP,

Ie using 2400 powder vs using bullseye, both powders have safe 13,000cup load data but the 2400 would be much more gradual build up to 13,000 cup

[Ajohns]

If you can find Reloader7, I'd try it.
As stated above, it gives low pressure behind at least 200gr bullets and you can stop at about 25 grs of powder. That's about a case full too so that's good, but you'll use up the pound of powder quicker than others mentioned.

[BoBSavage]

To be clear, and to add to Outpost75's suggestion...

Lyman's 49th (and maybe newer) lists rifles in two groups, Group I Rifles and Group II Rifles. The Winchester 73' chambered for the 44-40 cartridge is listed under Group I Rifles and any load listed under that group is safe....to include Trail Boss.

IMR-4227 powder is the slowest burning pistol powder and fastest burning rifle powder with a DPI of 180 and an RQ of 25.7.

As compared to other powders;

Powder/DPI/RQ
Bullseye - 700/100
700X - 635/90.7
Unique - 431/61.6
2400 - 189/27
IMR-4227 - 180/25.7
IMR-4198 - 160/22.9
Reloader 7 - 136/19.4
IMR-3031 - 135/19.3

https://chuckhawks.com/powder_burning_speed.htm?expand_article=1

[HWooldridge]

I use 24.0 grs of RE-7 under a 210 lead bullet - works great in my ‘92 El Tigre clone, which was made in the 1920’s.

[Frank V]

Trimble, that being an original 73 I would use Black Powder & a compressed charge, a soft bullet, with a lot of lubricant. I also would not shoot it a lot, it’s an old valuable rifle, made for Black Powder & soft lead.

[Kai]

Been shooting original Win. 1873 src in 44wcf using both clays and trailboss powders with bullets cast of wneel weights for the last 30 years. No issues and accuracy is as good as ever.

[BoBSavage]

, it’s an old valuable rifle, made for Black Powder & soft lead.


Smokeless powder not being used in black powder arms is a myth.
317948

[Frank V]

How long since that powder has been available? The lock up on the 73 isn’t as strong as later rifles. I am aware that replicas are available in .357. The key word, replica.To each his own. The pressure curve on smokeless is a lot different than black.

[BoBSavage]

How long since that powder has been available? The lock up on the 73 isn’t as strong as later rifles. I am aware that replicas are available in .357. The key word, replica. To each his own. The pressure curve on smokeless is a lot different than black.

Actually the pressure curve is only different when loading for velocity, not pressure.
For a correction, modern replica Uberti 73's are also chambered in 44 Magnum, not just the 357.

On top of that, there is the actual ammunition/powder combinations throughout the years for all old black powder cartridges, not just the 44-40. Actually early modern replica Uberti 73' had/have a weak link...no pun intended, a pin (VTI-Uberti Part #104) that was not offered in the original 73'. Later Uberti 73' and all original 73's had a tab, (VTI-Uberti part #721) Uberti Firing pin Extension Stop, of which is much stronger. The 44 Magnum uses no different parts.

The early smokeless powders created less pressures than the black powder loads. The nitroglycerin powders were bulky but dense, but used to replace black powder, as previously mentioned. As powders were improved, the 73' was still approved for smokeless loads....even today.

Not just limited to the 44-40, other Winchester loads as well, Winchester catered to the old guys and their black powder rifles more so than did other ammo and arms manufactures. The only loads Winchester did not approve for the 73' types were those 38 W.H.V. and the 44 W.H.V. cartridges of which were manufactured for the Model 92' from 1903 to 1938 and sold until 1945...some 35 years. Ironically Dupont (till 1912), then Hercules Sharpshooter powder was used, just a higher charge than those used for the black powder rifles...to include the 73'. This powder was used by Winchester for several cartridges from 1903 to 1938. After WWII, Winchester transitioned those cartridges to the Ball and flattened ball powders, then transitioned to flake powder by 1978...still approved for the 73'.

[hpbear101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTEVLB-PZdM&t=3s

An informative video on using smokeless in BP era Winchesters.

[Frank V]

Thanks hpbear101, that is informative.
Blowing up bbls. wasn’t my concern but damaging actions. Actions can stretch on older guns, the steel & heat treatments weren’t what we have today.
When we see a modern bolt action blown up it’s not normally the bbl. but the action. A little stretching creates excessive headspace.
We may not see a catastrophic failure, but a gradual stretching of an early gun. I don’t want to start a huge debate, but suggest caution with these older guns.

[BoBSavage]

Thanks hpbear101, that is informative.
Blowing up bbls. wasn’t my concern but damaging actions. Actions can stretch on older guns, the steel & heat treatments weren’t what we have today.
When we see a modern bolt action blown up it’s not normally the bbl. but the action. A little stretching creates excessive headspace.
We may not see a catastrophic failure, but a gradual stretching of an early gun. I don’t want to start a huge debate, but suggest caution with these older guns.

There is no need to start a huge debate, sometimes ya gotta just stop and listen to folks that actually know whats going on. Stop shooting high pressures loads, and the stretching will stop. However, sometimes things just wear-out. Nine out of ten times, when the truth is told, folks that encounter those type of problems are actually loading hotter than they realize or claim to admit. Folks need to stop loading for velocity because they will far exceed pressures before original velocities can be reached....thus creating the spiky or higher pressures.

The max smokeless pressures for the original 73' cartridges are close to each other. Loading manuals through the 1930's exceeded the 73' max loads we know today by nearly 3,000lbs. Many of the loading manuals loaded for the proof pressures. Rifles were loaded to 16,000cup and revolvers to 15,000cup for some. That is a far cry form today's factory loads. However, the 32 Winchester 73' action withstood 17,000cup normal loads and was also loaded to 15,000cup for revolvers.

318000

[35 Whelen]

I currently one original '73 Winchester (1886 prod.) and it's chambered in 38 WCF. I've loaded and fired many smokeless loads through it. I also own a '66 brass frame Uberti in 44 WCF. In both calibers my go-to powders are Unique and Herco with no harm at all to either rifle.

In my experience if you want to load for velocity, use as much Swiss 3Fg as you can get in the case. Doing so my old Winchester 38 WCF will run a 192 gr. cast FN just north of 1400 fps, the 44 WCF with a 220 gr. cast FN does just under 1400 fps.

35W

[Frank V]

I currently one original '73 Winchester (1886 prod.) and it's chambered in 38 WCF. I've loaded and fired many smokeless loads through it. I also own a '66 brass frame Uberti in 44 WCF. In both calibers my go-to powders are Unique and Herco with no harm at all to either rifle.

In my experience if you want to load for velocity, use as much Swiss 3Fg as you can get in the case. Doing so my old Winchester 38 WCF will run a 192 gr. cast FN just north of 1400 fps, the 44 WCF with a 220 gr. cast FN does just under 1400 fps.

35W

:goodpost::

[Tall]

Good data here.

https://reloadammo.com/reloading-the-44-40-winchester/

[barnabus]

6.0 grains Trailboss is what i use

[wwmartin]

No one has mentioned bore size. My Marlin 1889 44-40 slugs at .4345. So it's not very user friendly. It won't chamber anything larger than .433. I don't like scrubbing lead and have modern 44-40s to shoot so it sets neglected. I've been told that poli-shot buffer filler could solve the problems but haven't gone there yet.

Bill

[Outpost75]

No one has mentioned bore size. My Marlin 1889 44-40 slugs at .4345. So it's not very user friendly. It won't chamber anything larger than .433. I don't like scrubbing lead and have modern 44-40s to shoot so it sets neglected. I've been told that poli-shot buffer filler could solve the problems but haven't gone there yet.

Bill

Accurate 43-200QL is heeled bullet for .44-40 rifles with large groove diameter and tight chamber neck with adequate lube capacity for black powder. When you order you can specify driving band diameter, if you would rather have a bit larger.

318157

[Ajohns]

Also to maybe try is Buffalo Arms 222gr hollowbase

[Tall]

No one has mentioned bore size. My Marlin 1889 44-40 slugs at .4345. So it's not very user friendly. It won't chamber anything larger than .433. I don't like scrubbing lead and have modern 44-40s to shoot so it sets neglected. I've been told that poli-shot buffer filler could solve the problems but haven't gone there yet.

Bill

I use .427 diameter bullets from Bear Creek. My Uberti Flat Top Target didn't like the modern .429" bullets either.
https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/44-40-205