Accidental discharge of shotgun

[Battis]

I got the story from an eyewitness;
Two guys examining a pump shotgun in a house (I'm not sure of the make or model).
The guy holding the shotgun pointed the gun in a safe direction and worked the pump (finger not on or near the trigger). Shotgun went BOOOOOOOM into a dresser.
No one was hurt.
So, a knowledgeable shotgun person took the shotgun apart and said that it had been modified.
I've also read that the firing pins can get stuck if the gun hasn't been cleaned.
This might be a dumb question (I don't have a pump shotgun), but how would a shooter know if a pump shotgun is loaded without working the action?
And, how would you know if it's been modified?

[FISH4BUGS]

There is no such thing as an "accidental" discharge. It is a NEGLIGENT discharge. OK kids, flame away!
Most pumps have a bolt release (not sure if that is the right term) that allows the action to be opened. Typically it is located near the trigger guard.
I don't see how a shotgun can be fired if it is being opened properly.
Stranger things have happened though.

[JSnover]

Some newer models might have a loaded chamber indicator - a little red or orange tab that's visible when there's a round in the chamber (I've never seen one). Other than that, the way you described would be the only way.

[G W Wade]

To me you just open it!.. It fired when they closed it without looking for the shells. First why was it loaded? Looking in the loading port will show if shells are present. Just basic safety IMHO GW

[avogunner]

There is no such thing as an "accidental" discharge. It is a NEGLIGENT discharge…...

Absolutely 100% accurate. I’ve never heard an acceptable explanation on how an unintentional discharge was an “accident”.


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[Battis]

Accidental, negligent, whatever. I'm not asking to argue or point fingers, just to learn. Why was it loaded? Unfortunately, the previous owner has passed, so we can't ask him. The family knows nothing about the guns he owned. Have you ever worked the action on a pump shotgun in a store?
The incident should not have happened, but it did.

[country gent]

Any thing mechanical can fail from wear neglect age. When checking a pump action you open it and look not open and slam closed and then leave it open while handling it. Pumps and semi autos are notorious for smaller ejection ports to check thru Meaning you have to make a point of seeing the empty chamber.

Older pump actions didnt always have a disconnector so they can be "slam" fired by design.

A machine is made to do a job but the maim mangle and mutilate is built in we have to stay on our toes to control them

[NSB]

Absolutely 100% accurate. I’ve never heard an acceptable explanation on how an unintentional discharge was an “accident”.


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100% in agreement.

[Rapier]

The knowable shotgun person was not so knowable, obviously. Legal term: "The act speaks for itself."

A pump or auto with the bolt closed is always, always loaded, until you, yourself determine it is not loaded, as are all guns, for that matter.

The pump guns and autos have a bolt release, that does not involve pulling the trigger. You should always point the muzzle in a safe direction, activate the release and open the bolt by hand, holding the bolt open, if necessary, look into the chamber, at the lifter feed tray and into the magazine to make very sure the shotgun is "clear" of all ammo before you close the bolt or handle it. Most really knowable shotgun folks lock the bolt back, before handling the pump or auto shotgun so it can not fire.

Actually in my opinion, this sounds more like a pump was left without a round in the chamber but the mag tube full, then the clown picked it up, racked the pump, thus loading it, in the process, then hit the trigger, but 110% of the time, the gun fired all by itself, he never did anything, except picking up an always loaded gun, without clearing it, and playing with it.

[Battis]

I’ve never heard an acceptable explanation on how an unintentional discharge was an “accident”.

OK, I get it. I really do. Take the Accidental" out of my post's title. How about, "******* Discharge of a shotgun."
Those responses add nothing - zero- to what happened and how it happened.
I'm looking for technical info, not emotional opinions on the incident.

The knowledgeable person I mentioned is not the one who fired the shotgun. He's the one that disassembled it and determined it had been modified. That act speaks for itself.
The shooter did not touch the trigger. These are all facts that can be refuted if you want, but that's what happened.
Maybe, if I had asked, "Can a pump shotgun be modified to fire when pumped?" I could have saved alot of BS.

[rockrat]

I believe its called a disconnector and makes it where you have to release the trigger to re-set it in order to fire again. I do not know if you remove it that the gun can fire again without releasing the trigger. I suspect it is probably designed to not fire if the sear disconnector has been removed. Wonder if the gun had a "release trigger" installed, to where it fires not when you pull the trigger, but when you release it. Wonder if it could have been a high primer that went off when the action was slammed shut.

[RickinTN]

I teach the clay target sports and many young shooters along the way. I met a new student along with his dad one day. Dad had taught the boy to unlock the action by pulling the trigger. All is fine as long as the chamber is empty. If it's not, then you have that negligent discharge. I can't imagine teaching a kid this.
Take care,
Rick

[Dusty Bannister]

I suppose it is possible that the magazine was empty. I understand that the shot gun had the slide cycled, which to me means unlocked and then closed. There is no mention of looking in the chamber, or even sticking a pinky in the port to see if a shell might be stuck in the chamber.

The owner had passed, who knows how long a shell might have been in the chamber, perhaps slightly expanded or other wise stuck so the extractor failed to remove the shell. I have always been taught that the correct way to check for a loaded weapon was to open the action, LOOK in the chamber and make sure no fresh round is chambered when closing the action. It sounds like the gun handler failed to look, just shucked the action, nothing fell on the floor so assumed all was well, until he discovered it wasn't.

[country gent]

As I said early shotguns didnt have the disconnector, throwing the pump forward with the trigger back would fire them when they locked the hammer would drop. I believe the ithica 37s were the last to have the disconnector added. But the trigger still has to be held back. Other wise it would require a mechanical failure to fire. Even a modification to allow firing with out the trigger pull I would consider unsafe and a failure. This is akin to wiring the triggers back on a old hammer side by side

[dverna]

Some pump shotguns (my 1897 is an example) will fire as you close the action if the trigger is held back.

I do not know enough about them to determine how just operating the action would cause it to fire.

As to the gun being stored loaded, my M500's are kept loaded for SD. If the need arises, I want the weapon ready to do its thing. Nothing wrong with doing that if the people in the house know the "house rules". Plus, if a person treats every gun as if it is loaded, the "house rules" are not necessary.

I used release triggers for many years but they require the trigger to be activated to fire. It fires when the trigger is released...not pulled. It would not cause the incident described.

My opinion is the guy had his finger on the trigger even if he swears differently. Easy mistake to make for some folks. A famous actor swore he did not pull the trigger, but we suspect differently.

[Battis]

I gotta say that allowing such a negligent discharge is totally stooopid. I know that I double and triple check a firearm to make sure it's not loaded, as most shooters do. Even if the shotgun was somehow modified to slam fire, or the firing pin was frozen in place (maybe on purpose), if there's no shell in the gun, it won't go boom.
Not knowing much about pump shotguns, I was curious as to how you could check to see if it was loaded. If I had handled it, I would not have worked the pump, simply because I don't know enough about them. I do not know the "shooter" - all I can say is that he was lucky that day (lucky regarding the outcome) as were the others in the room. At least he pointed the gun in a safe direction.
As far as being modified - I'd like to talk to the guy that made that determination but I'm staying away from the incident completely.

[Finster101]

My experience is limited, but I have never seen a pump gun that did not have a release to open the action. It should have been opened and looked into. The shell waiting to go into battery would have been very obvious at that point.

[white eagle]

Safety first unless it takes to long
was their school of thought at that point
always follow safety rules when things can get you hurt or killed
Check the chamber and the magazine if you don't know what those are
you should not be handling a firearm until you do know what they are
there are no accidental discharges

[trebor44]

Nothing wrong with keeping a loaded weapon, you just have to treat it as such. Anyone can have a negligent or accidental discharge, blessed are you have not had the thrill of one YET! Kind of like vehicle infraction tickets, just a matter of when. Yeah this was stupid beyond belief but given we now live in the ideocracy culture, it is understandable and believable!

[farmbif]

sure sounds like negligence all around. good thing they didn't point it at one another when handling. but its easy enough to be sure a gun is not loaded, failure 1,
the gun was modified. failure 2, seems these days everyone and their brother is assembling an AR or printing their own Glock and they think they are a gunsmith and try their luck in doing god know what to every other gun they can get their hands on, failure 3.
some people who are wholly irresponsible have no business handling guns if they have not been properly educated about how to handle a gun safely.
its almost getting scary to buy a previously owned gun without thoughouly checking the whole thing out to be sure bubba didn't have his grubby little hands on it.

[wildwilly501]

I’ve seen two pump shotguns fire when the pump was worked. A Mossberg 500 and a Winchester 1200 or 1300. Both for the same reason the owners had hunted with the gun in a hard rain and not cleaned the guns.I can’t remember if the first shot fired normally or if they had dry fired the guns when they put them away the year before. The firing pins were rusted tight in the forward position

[Battis]

Again, I get the safety aspect, and I even agree with every condemnation of the shooter, but I'm trying to find out if a pump can be altered, and, if so, in what way? If...if...the firing pin was frozen in place due to dirt, or even intentionally, wouldn't that account for the gun firing when the bolt was closed? Or, could the sear be modified with the same result?
I know...God knows I know...the shooter should have checked to see if the gun was loaded. I know.
Occam's razor...maybe he did have his finger on the trigger. But, what if he didn't.

"The firing pins were rusted tight in the forward position."
There's a possible answer.

[45_Colt]

An improperly done 'trigger job' can do it. If too light the sear can be knocked off by the jarring of the slide movement.

45_Colt

[WILCO]

My experience is limited, but I have never seen a pump gun that did not have a release to open the action. It should have been opened and looked into. The shell waiting to go into battery would have been very obvious at that point.

And has a distinct sound when entering the carrier.

[JoeJames]

Per Forensic Gunsmithing - the 870 has the famous two piece Remington trigger which sometimes goes off when the safety is released.

unSafe by Design?: Forensic Firearms Investigations
by H.J. Jack Belk and Bill Rogers

[M-Tecs]

I got the story from an eyewitness;
Two guys examining a pump shotgun in a house (I'm not sure of the make or model).
The guy holding the shotgun pointed the gun in a safe direction and worked the pump (finger not on or near the trigger). Shotgun went BOOOOOOOM into a dresser.
No one was hurt.
So, a knowledgeable shotgun person took the shotgun apart and said that it had been modified.
I've also read that the firing pins can get stuck if the gun hasn't been cleaned.
This might be a dumb question (I don't have a pump shotgun), but how would a shooter know if a pump shotgun is loaded without working the action?
And, how would you know if it's been modified?

1. The story is the trigger wasn't pulled. That may not be reality.

2. As a "knowledgeable person" they should have been able to specify the "modification". What was the modification?????????

3. When they opened the action they SHOULD have seen the shell on the lifter???????

Way too many missing details and way too much ignorance in this "story" to give an accurate assessment.

If the trigger was lightened to the point it followed down when the action was slammed shut that would be one possibility.

Same for a protruding firing pin. The issue with that is if the shell fires before the bolt is fully locked the action may be damage. Fixed/stuck firing pins tend to do damage unless in a blowback action or designed to fire open bolt.

Since there were two looking at the shotgun and at least one witness that meant there were three people involved that apparently shouldn't be around firearms.

[M-Tecs]

Per Forensic Gunsmithing - the 870 has the famous two piece Remington trigger which sometimes goes off when the safety is released.

unSafe by Design?: Forensic Firearms Investigations
by H.J. Jack Belk and Bill Rogers

That would be the Remington 700's.

[JoeJames]

That would be the Remington 700's.Yes, those too. I was relieved to find my cheaper old Rem 788 was considered safe.

[atfsux]

Yeah, some older designs are just not up to snuff. A friend acquired an old Marlin 1898 12ga. pump that has the nickname "The Widowmaker" because they are so unsafe by today's standards. Their primary weakness was an ability to accidentally fire when the bolt/slide is not locked,...but they also were known to occasionally have the firing pin safety features fail and slam-fire when the trigger was NOT depressed. Many newbies thinking they can get into SASS competition inexpensively by using one of these old Marlins, only to learn they are specifically banned from use in SASS events because of their reputation. Lots of cheap shotguns have rusted away in closets and basements for decades, and you might never have heard of that particular brand or model before because they were like the cheap "Saturday Night Specials" of the inner city;...mass marketed for the lowest price point with the cheapest materials to the poorest buyers, and out of business within a few years because of liability concerns.

I'll never forget the time one of my mother's tenants left behind an old Raven .25acp pistol when they moved out and skipped on their rent. I loaded it up with 6 rounds in the mag, pulled the slide back and let if fly home (finger off the trigger, by the way) and got a nice 6 round burst of full-auto til the mag was empty.

That sort of thing happens with cheap guns.

[Battis]

1. The story is the trigger wasn't pulled. That may not be reality.
OK. I noted that.


2. As a "knowledgeable person" they should have been able to specify the "modification". What was the modification?????????
I never spoke to him or met him. I don't even know his name. But that question is the meat of my post: what could the modification have been?


3. When they opened the action they SHOULD have seen the shell on the lifter???????
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.


Way too many missing details and way too much ignorance in this "story" to give an accurate assessment.
The only ignorance that I see is the inability to grasp the meaning of my post. I'm not looking for an assessment of this incident. I'm asking the question, "Can a pump shotgun be modified to fire when pumped?"

For the record, there were two people in the room. One knew nothing about firearms. The other one was the shooter.

[M-Tecs]

The Winchester 1911 shotgun that earned "The Widowmaker" title. https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/shooting-history-winchesters-widow-maker-old-gun-review/

[M-Tecs]

The only ignorance that I see is the inability to grasp the meaning of my post. I'm not looking for an assessment of this incident. I'm asking the question, "Can a pump shotgun be modified to fire when pumped?"


OK, I get it. I really do. Take the Accidental" out of my post's title. How about, "******* Discharge of a shotgun."
Those responses add nothing - zero- to what happened and how it happened.
I'm looking for technical info, not emotional opinions on the incident.

The knowledgeable person I mentioned is not the one who fired the shotgun. He's the one that disassembled it and determined it had been modified. That act speaks for itself.
The shooter did not touch the trigger. These are all facts that can be refuted if you want, but that's what happened.
Maybe, if I had asked, "Can a pump shotgun be modified to fire when pumped?" I could have saved alot of BS.

Maybe - asking if it could be modified to pump fire might have saved a lot of BS. Same for asking the knowledgeable person what was modified?

The issue is that to pump fire the trigger has to be pulled than held back. If the trigger was not pulled or held back a bad trigger job or worn/broken parts would be the most likely cause.

Pre 1975 Ithaca's37's, Winchester 97's, Winchester Model 12's and a host of other pumps without disconnectors will "pump fire". Remington 870's like a lot of other pumps can be modified to pump fire.

Pump firing is different than slam firing but the differences are often confused.

Fixing the firing pin to remain protruded is an unknown for safety and or function since the bolts may not be fully locked. I have seen two shotguns that fired with the bolt unlocked. Both required extensive repairs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWveqBkFV3Q

[Battis]

I never spoke to the "knowledgeable person." I think he lives on a grassy knoll.
As far as the first part of my post - that was all background. if I had just asked the question about modifying a shotgun, I would have been hit with statements such as, "That would never happen."
So, I added background. MISTAKE.

[Texas by God]

On said shotgun, if the modifier modified the firing pin to protrude in the fire position- yes, it would slam fire probably. Like an open bolt submachine gun…..
The Raven mentioned probably had a broken/ stuck firing pin causing the FA burst. Dry firing a Raven is taboo because the firing pin doubles as the ejector and they can break as a result.
I’ve fixed a few of them for friends that were trying to master the trigger….
They’re good little pistols otherwise.


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[Mk42gunner]

I got the story from an eyewitness;
Two guys examining a pump shotgun in a house (I'm not sure of the make or model).
The guy holding the shotgun pointed the gun in a safe direction and worked the pump (finger not on or near the trigger). Shotgun went BOOOOOOOM into a dresser.
No one was hurt.
So, a knowledgeable shotgun person took the shotgun apart and said that it had been modified.
I've also read that the firing pins can get stuck if the gun hasn't been cleaned.
This might be a dumb question (I don't have a pump shotgun), but how would a shooter know if a pump shotgun is loaded without working the action?
And, how would you know if it's been modified?
Battis,
Without knowing what make or model it is almost impossible to give a good answer to your question. You can look into the magazine to see if any rounds are there, but that doesn't tell you if one is in the chamber.

Good that only a dresser (and maybe a couple of sets of skivvies) was damaged.

The it has been modified statement doesn't make any sense to me, without saying what was modified.

I was an Armorer for a lot of years and right off the top of my head, I can't see how to modify a generic pump to fire as the action closes. Most of them will jam during feeding if the firing pin is protruding.

Robert

[rbuck351]

I have an old M10 Rem pump shotgun that I quit using when it started firing when the action was closed on a loaded round. It has a worn out sear. It is possible he did not pull the trigger. Someone closing the action without checking whether or not the gun was loaded is negligent

[firefly1957]

We may never know what really happened yes the gun was handled improperly at least it was only a dresser and some of the contents lost .

I will add another pump shotgun to the list of guns that fire "IF" the trigger is pulled when a new round is chambered and that is my J.C. Higgins which was made for Sears by High Standard . I forget whether my High Standard 18-7 RIOT gun does the same if I remember I will check it later. Funny thing is because of my proper training I had never noticed the old J.C. Higgins fired when racking in a new round my son found out when he fired it .

[Handloader109]

Yep, most probably a paper hull that had swelled up in the chamber, racked the pump, didn't look inside,or if they did, they didn't look in the barrel, and racked it closed with finger on the trigger. Boom

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[bedbugbilly]

Any pump shotgun I ever used (Winchester, Stevens & Mossberg) could easily be checked by simply opening the bolt. IIRC correctly, the Winchester and Stevens we had WOULD fire upon pushing the slid closed, IF your finger was on the trigger pulling the trigger back.

The only way a pump will fire is by closing the action . . . . so any way you cut it, they just didn't just open the bolt to see if it was loaded - THEY RACKED THE ACTION. As pointed out, NOT AN ACCIDENT - NEGLIENCE.

I had a friend do the same thing with a 12 gauge pump - bought it for home defense and loaded ie in the bedroom to put it in the closet. He ended up discharging it into the ceiling - NOT AN ACCIDENT - NEGLIGENCE. He called me to tell me about it as it scared the manure out of him. By the time I got done chewing him a second one, I'm sure he had to make an appointment with a Proctologist.

Yea . . . there could have been a mechanical issue with the firearm . . . but the biggest problem was the loose nut HOLDING the firearm. 1st question - why was the shotgun loaded and in the house? If for self-defense, fine. 2nd question - why was someone obviously unfamiliar with it handling it?

Firearms are not "toys" to be played with inside a building - if the story is true, they can thank God that it was a dresser and not another loved one. I have very vivid memories of when I worked Ambulance and when worked Fire Rescue when I was on calls for firearm fatalities in houses, that were not self-inflicted, where a loved one was killed by a firearm discharge. Not only does those involved with there shooting have to live with it, but every first responder as well who responds to such a call.

Never ceases to amaze me how when such a thing happens, it's always the "firearm's fault". Moral of the story . . . if you aren't familiar with a firearm . . . . don't go duck hunting in your house . . .

[Dusty Bannister]

In the thread, it clearly stated that the holder of the shot gun was familiar with firearms. He just failed to clear the chamber and stuff happened. At least he only shot up the dresser,.....This time.

[Battis]

I totally agree with the criticism of the shooter. He should have known better. He got lucky while being unlucky. For me to ask what the modification was, I'd be stepping into a pile of crap that no one wants to go to.
I don't know enough about that particular gun to ask the right questions. I was kinda asking a generic question. It could have been modified on purpose or neglected and not cleaned with the same result.
Part of my incentive for asking is that my daughter has a Mossberg 20ga pump. We will be tearing that gun down for a good cleaning soon.

[Idaho45guy]

I learned years ago about the hazards of letting stupid people handle my guns.

I was hosting a barbecue at my house in the country and had just got a custom 870 shotgun back from the gunsmith and had been shooting it earlier that day.

About a dozen of us were sitting around the fire when one of my buddies wanted to see the shotgun. I brought it out, handed it to him and told him that it was loaded. He immediately worked the action, pulled the trigger, and about fell out of his chair when it fired he was so shocked. At least it was pointed in the air.

After the screams and crying from the women and kids ended, the other guests were yelling at him. "He said it was loaded, you moron!!"

I still don't understand how anyone could be that dumb. Now, when letting ANYONE handle one of my guns, I make sure it is unloaded, and tell them to check that it is unloaded.