The 40-70 Sharps Straight Challenge

[Chill Wills]

The 40-70 Sharps Straight Challenge is not to shoot better than me or the next guy, but load and shoot it well, and share what is working for you.

The 40-70 can be a stinker. It is an old-time favorite of hunters and found regularly in old match rifles as well. 330gr and 370 grain bullets were the norm.

I have two rifles chambered for it and kinda sorta tamed one of them years ago. It is the 14.5" twist Sharps but don't shoot it much. It is an Axtel 1877. My other 40-70SS, a Winchester 1885 with an even faster twist has really been a puzzle. I dug it out of the very back of the safe where it has been for years and I am going to try again at a silhouette match tomorrow.

What do you have that is working? Don't be a lurker. Let's hear it.

[Randy Bohannon]

My Shiloh 1874 40-70 SS 32” barrel has done well with a Steve Brooks Money Bullet @ 410 grs. 410” and 70 grs. of Swiss 1.5. Next best was a Lyman Snover 410 grs. and 65 grs. of Swiss 1.5.
I have more 40 cal moulds than any other for one rifle things got better with Jamison brass, should have bought more than 100 pieces.

[Abert Rim]

Good luck Chill, and I look forward to your report. Been years since I had one on a rolling block action. Didn't really shoot it enough to make it sing.

[BLAHUT]

A 45/70 roller, 30" barrel, 500 gr .459-500 Lee, pure lead, 41 grs blackhorn 209, mag primer, about 1200 FPS. A 45/70 guide gun, 515 gr Lee flat point, pure lead, 27 grs 5744, mag primer, about 1200 FPS. A 45/60, 515 grs Lee flat point, pure lead, 30 grs blackhorn 209, mag primer, about 1200 FPS. All shoot real accurate for me....
Would love to find some jamison 45/60 brass ???

[Randy Bohannon]

A 45/70 roller, 30" barrel, 500 gr .459-500 Lee, pure lead, 41 grs blackhorn 209, mag primer, about 1200 FPS. A 45/70 guide gun, 515 gr Lee flat point, pure lead, 27 grs 5744, mag primer, about 1200 FPS. A 45/60, 515 grs Lee flat point, pure lead, 30 grs blackhorn 209, mag primer, about 1200 FPS. All shoot real accurate for me....
Would love to find some jamison 45/60 brass ???

Has absolutely nothing to do with the question asked.

[BLAHUT]

Has absolutely nothing to do with the question asked.


[What do you have that is working? Don't be a lurker. Let's hear it.] YAP; you are right ??????

[Lead pot]

My first 74 Shiloh was the .40-2.5 (70) I shot it for several years and it was a little temperamental when I first got it. Back then I used mostly the Lyman and Saeco as well as the RCBS moulds.
I had Steve brooks make me a Snover nosed paper patch mould and it started to show me that this rifle and came to an attention we could agree on :D and I had a few others made by Paul Jones.
I found the longer that ogive radius got the harder it was keeping a good finish at the Gongs so I went back to the blunter nosed shorter ogive radiuses and this work out good for me.
One night I got a call from Dave Gullo and he asked me some questions for making PP moulds and I told him what I liked and later Jim called me again and we came up with the design of the 3 in the photo and it turned out to be a very good shooter. Then the 4 on the right I had BA make and the first three shoot very well in the .40-70 with a 1/16 ROT and the .40-65 14 ROT.
The forth shoots well in the 14 ROT but falters in the 16 at longer ranges.
Those dimples are where the ogive meats the shank and that is where I hold the patch. For a slower twist I like the ogive farther up front.
My .40-2.5 I like the .405 Win brass. The wall thickness is just right for the PP. Shoot, clean and reload. They never need a die for the next reload.
A lot of shooters get their moulds by weight of the bullet. Think length for your ROT and not weight. Your alloy temper will change the weight but not the proper length for the ROT.

Kurt


317543317544

[Chill Wills]

I shot the 40-70 SS in a silhouette match today. I thought it was a mild day until it was time to sit in the spotting chair and coach Dan, my shooting partner. Everyone’s overall scores suffered due to the mysterious unseen conditions. So, …I am not sure this was the best indicator of accuracy BUT, that is the good news. The load worked about as well as any today, shooting a 24 with the match winning score being a 25. I started on Turkeys shooting a 7, * but shot one out of order or would have been an 8, and finished on Pigs with 10 of 10. The rams were trouble with all of us having some high/low issues.
If it wasn’t for the last offhand Chicken, a hit, I would have been skunked!
I am optimistic! This Buffalo Arms heavy, as in 460 grains, and for Kurt- 1.515” long bullet, seems to have a future in this 40cal 13 twist barrel.

[Lead pot]

1.515 would work in my 14 twist. What is the BA mould number ? For a 1.5" bullet at 460 gr the alloy must be close to 1/20? that should lay the rams down in fair shape.
I will shoot a silhouette match next weekend and I think I will pack the .40-70 along with the .38-50 Hep.

I think Henry the Gremlin plays games with me on the Pigs :D I get more turkeys than pigs usually

[Chill Wills]

https://www.buffaloarms.com/409-460-grain-creedmoor-1-ca-jim409460c3.html

[Lead pot]

I like the profile but it has too many rumble strips LOL

[Chill Wills]

I stopped with the PP bullets. No advantage for me.

[Old-Win]

In 2002, I got my order for what was to be my first and only black powder cartridge rifle. It was made by Ballard in Cody and one of their first high walls and in 40-70 Sharp Straight. Ron Long did a lot of the work. As a rookie, it took me quite a while to get it to shoot. I don't know if it was because it was a 40-70 or I was just that green at what I was doing. Here's a few things that I did find out and actually got it to shoot quite well. It came with a chamber mouth of .430" and I was using stretched Buffalo Arm brass. I found that neck turning the brass helped a great deal in accuracy and I'm not sure whether it was because it gave me a couple more thousandths clearance or whether it was because i trued up the neck of the brass. Probably a little bit of each. The next thing that helped quite a bit was I had a taper crimp die taken out by Bob Stillwell in Texas which just next sized the case down enough to where it put a 1/2 " straight section on the neck of the case rather than a straight taper all the way from the rim to the end of the case. That seemed to help quite a bit too. It helped with bullet run out. Steve Brooks advised me to have him make a bullet 1.5" long for a 16" twist. I found that when shooting it in long range matches the holes were oblong at 900 and a 1000 yards. Went to a bullet 1.45 in long and that helped straighten out the holes but not completely. Finally went to a bullet 1.41" long and now I was punching round holes in the paper. All this time my accuracy was improving but I don't know if it was because I was just learning how to shoot these things or whether some of the stuff I did helped as well. Bob

[Lead pot]

Bob,

I shortened mine up also but I used the lathe and just kept cutting the mould down to almost the pin.
This is the same profile as Chill's rumble strip but ironed out :D
It's a very good performer to the 1000 yard in my 16 twist 74 .40-70. It weighs 416 gr with 1/20 T/L
317553

[Deadeye Bly]

My 40/70 Is a Shiloh '74 Sharps with a 14" twist 32" long barrel. I've had good luck with a Brooks 416 gr Creedmoor style bullet with 59 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss. The 1st time out on silhouettes I shot a 29 but have not done that well since with it. I mostly use the BACO stretched Krag brass. I've got some Hornady 405 brass and had to turn the necks. Mine have a lot of weight variation and I sorted it into 2 weight groups. I use the 405 brass on chickens with a 370 gr Saeco bullet with 53 gr of 1 1/2 Swiss. I miss a lot of chickens so it is OK. I've got a Brooks 441 grain Creedmoor style bullet that is 1.42" long. I shot a long range match with it with 67 gr of 1 1/2 Swiss. At 800 yds I was right there with the top shooters. I never missed at 900 but could only put one in the black. I had 2 misses at 1000 but shot a better score than at 900. I would like to try it again at long range but the match is in Aug lying out in the hot sun and you don't have a spotter/coach. You are entirely on your own and by the time you read the conditions, get in the rifle, find the right target and shoot, conditions have changed. I tried the 441 bullet on rams in KY with limited success. Since I got my 40/50 SS the 40/70 has not gotten much work.

[Chill Wills]

The rifle I have is set up for the 405 Win brass shortened to 2.5" as well. I think this reduces the capacity compaired to the stretched Krag brass Buffalo Arms used to sell. That might be a good thing.
I agree, it would be fun to try this 40 at long range but like you, the hot summer sun keeps me from enjoying the match so I quit shooting Creedmoor. My little brain gets baked and I don't even shoot as well as I can in that state.
Much more shooting and load testing is needed to have an idea what will work best with this bullet. BTW, I started using .090" wads and very hard alloy that may be a help with this bullet's long unsupported nose.

[Don McDowell]

If you guys have that midrange match in Cheyenne, it would be interesting to see what the bullet holes look like in the 600 yard target. Or at least shoot Cody's 500 gongs when you can go out and look at the imprint in the paint.

[Gunlaker]

Interesting Michael. When I was shooting midrange in Worland I did pretty well with my 1.4" long money bullet in both 1-16 & 1-14 twist .40-65's. I know it's only a 40-65, but Bryan Y, would generally shoot a few points higher than me. He was using a slightly heavier and slightly shorter bullet in a 1:14 twist 40-70 Shiloh. JIM409410M5. Lots of powder capacity. I have the mold and have even cast the bullets but haven't shot any yet.

I've always wondered what it was about the 40-70 that gave it a bad reputation. Is it a brass uniformity problem? Or do they generally have chambers with unusual and tricky throats? Or too much powder for the bore diameter? I'm too chicken to try and find out.

Chris.

[Randy Bohannon]

The BACO stretched Krag brass caused me lots of frustrating days on the silhouette range, I finally figured out why ? My rifle would shave off a wee bit of brass on some but not all cases closing the action which told me the stretching of the brass was inconsistent and never going to the winners circle. I then bought some Rocky Mountain Brass when they were in Cody. That stuff was so soft 65 grs. of Swiss 1.5 would swell the case and wouldn’t chamber. Then Jamison made some 40-70 SS brass and bingo really good brass but I only bought 100 pieces not knowing they would be kaput not long for the world. I have 500 pieces of the RP stretched Krag brass I think is useless for competing .

[HWooldridge]

The BACO stretched Krag brass caused me lots of frustrating days on the silhouette range, I finally figured out why ? My rifle would shave off a wee bit of brass on some but not all cases closing the action which told me the stretching of the brass was inconsistent and never going to the winners circle. I then bought some Rocky Mountain Brass when they were in Cody. That stuff was so soft 65 grs. of Swiss 1.5 would swell the case and wouldn’t chamber. Then Jamison made some 40-70 SS brass and bingo really good brass but I only bought 100 pieces not knowing they would be kaput not long for the world. I have 500 pieces of the RP stretched Krag brass I think is useless for competing .
Can the Krag brass be trimmed?

[Randy Bohannon]

Length isn’t the problem, when the brass is stretched the brass is not always going to the length. Somehow the web/primer pocket gets more than it should. One thing I haven’t tried is going through all the brass and separating the brass that chambers without shaving, going to try that now that I’m thinking about it. All of my 40-70 SS brass is “2.5” same as the chamber.

[Chill Wills]

I have not had time to get out and test this rifle and load since the match on the 5th. Next Saturday is the next chance at a match and maybe a load test day Thursday or Friday. I am excited to test these very hard, very long bullets again.

[Chill Wills]

Length isn’t the problem, when the brass is stretched the brass is not always going to the length. Somehow the web/primer pocket gets more than it should. One thing I haven’t tried is going through all the brass and separating the brass that chambers without shaving, going to try that now that I’m thinking about it. All of my 40-70 SS brass is “2.5” same as the chamber.

This Hornady brass is trimmed to 2.5" after it is FL sized, and once it is fired, shortens to about 2.475".
I have used it neck sized and short and FL sized and long again with about the same result. So far, I have not had the problem with any of it separating.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I use the Jamison Brass, now unataunuim. 57.5 gr with a David Mos 387 gr bullet is a tack driver when I do my part. My silhouette loads run around 63.5 to 66.0 grs of Swiss with a BACO money 447 gr bullet. All my bullets are cast at 14.5-1.
A HDPE .060 wad and Fed 210 match primers. Never could get consistent accuracy with pistol primers.

KW

[Lead pot]

Another option for the .40-70 brass might be the .375 Flanged Magnum (9.5×75mmR), This brass is used for the double rifles mostly but the base runs a little larger, .010" but think it could be swaged down with a sizing die with the EZ rounded edge trimmed off the bottom and the case pushed in to the rim.
I was looking for some earlier this summer and found some Hornady for under $10. per 20 but they wanted a $150. minimum order. I also used the 9.3X74R brass.
I was thinking about using the .375 brass for the .38-50 because the .30-40 Krag is just about none existing anymore.

[Don McDowell]

So do we have tales of woe or cheers of glee over the new bullet this morning.

[steveu]

My first 74 Shiloh was the .40-2.5 (70) I shot it for several years and it was a little temperamental when I first got it. Back then I used mostly the Lyman and Saeco as well as the RCBS moulds.
I had Steve brooks make me a Snover nosed paper patch mould and it started to show me that this rifle and came to an attention we could agree on :D and I had a few others made by Paul Jones.
I found the longer that ogive radius got the harder it was keeping a good finish at the Gongs so I went back to the blunter nosed shorter ogive radiuses and this work out good for me.
One night I got a call from Dave Gullo and he asked me some questions for making PP moulds and I told him what I liked and later Jim called me again and we came up with the design of the 3 in the photo and it turned out to be a very good shooter. Then the 4 on the right I had BA make and the first three shoot very well in the .40-70 with a 1/16 ROT and the .40-65 14 ROT.
The forth shoots well in the 14 ROT but falters in the 16 at longer ranges.
Those dimples are where the ogive meats the shank and that is where I hold the patch. For a slower twist I like the ogive farther up front.
My .40-2.5 I like the .405 Win brass. The wall thickness is just right for the PP. Shoot, clean and reload. They never need a die for the next reload.
A lot of shooters get their moulds by weight of the bullet. Think length for your ROT and not weight. Your alloy temper will change the weight but not the proper length for the ROT.

Kurt


317543317544

Kurt, what is the nose profile for the first bullet in the picture on the right?

[Lead pot]

Steve,

That bullet has a R-10 I think, cant say for sure anymore.
I favor the blunter nosed ellipticals. Yes they take a point or three more of elevation but they hit nose first :D

[Chill Wills]

40-70SS Challenge 2.0 Match day. 40-70SS Highwall, 13 twist. 461 grain Creedmoor bullet.
Started on Pigs with light winds and a sunny day. The mirage was thicker than I had ever seen it. By the time we got to Rams the spotter could not even see the hits through the Kowa scope! I was shooting Iron sight and was just trying to center the wavy moving blob as best I could. It was kinda funny in a way. If I hit a ram, Dan, my spotter would say (with irony) you hit it, ...somewhere? It went down. 10 Pigs, 9 Turkeys, 6 Rams and a Chicken. I think the load is working better than anything I have ever tried in it before, and that says a lot! It looks like I still need to make friends with the rifle for offhand. For all of us shooting yesterday, the morning targets, whatever they were, went better than the afternoon. ....Despite the wonderful lunch provided by the Smith family!!! If you every get a chance to shoot at Smithmoor, don't pass it up!

[Chill Wills]

Here is something you might find interesting. The load is this long 461grn bullet, and 64.5grs of Olde Swissford. That is, half and half of some almost ten year old Swiss I could not make shoot to my liking and some Olde Eynsford that I guess I just didn't know how to make work. Having tried these two powders by themself in the normal way with no luck, out of pure frustration, I mixed two cans of one with two cans of the other, making 4 pounds to work with and developed a very good load for one of my 40-60 Maynard. After receiving this Buffalo Arms bullet this past year, I started load development on the 40-70SS right off with the hybrid Olde Swissford and it seems to be working too, tho more testing is needed. Also being used is a 0.090" LDPE wad to help ease the start of the long nosed bullet. Does it help??? I don't know. I have not tested the load with thinner wads yet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Stick to the thick wads.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

My first 74 Shiloh was the .40-2.5 (70) I shot it for several years and it was a little temperamental when I first got it. Back then I used mostly the Lyman and Saeco as well as the RCBS moulds.
I had Steve brooks make me a Snover nosed paper patch mould and it started to show me that this rifle and came to an attention we could agree on :D and I had a few others made by Paul Jones.
I found the longer that ogive radius got the harder it was keeping a good finish at the Gongs so I went back to the blunter nosed shorter ogive radiuses and this work out good for me.
One night I got a call from Dave Gullo and he asked me some questions for making PP moulds and I told him what I liked and later Jim called me again and we came up with the design of the 3 in the photo and it turned out to be a very good shooter. Then the 4 on the right I had BA make and the first three shoot very well in the .40-70 with a 1/16 ROT and the .40-65 14 ROT.
The forth shoots well in the 14 ROT but falters in the 16 at longer ranges.
Those dimples are where the ogive meats the shank and that is where I hold the patch. For a slower twist I like the ogive farther up front.
My .40-2.5 I like the .405 Win brass. The wall thickness is just right for the PP. Shoot, clean and reload. They never need a die for the next reload.
A lot of shooters get their moulds by weight of the bullet. Think length for your ROT and not weight. Your alloy temper will change the weight but not the proper length for the ROT.

Kurt


317543317544

Good pictures and good designs the far right looks good so Does #2 and #3.

Thanks for posting Kurt.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Lead pot]

:D Chill I did the very same thing with left over Diamond UGG, Schuetzen, Goes exp and old Dupont of different granulations :D and it turned out that it would splinter a 200 yard bowling pin hanging on a wire by the time ending the range session. :D

Kenny,

All of those bullets shoot very good in the .40-70 and the other .40-65's I have except the far right one in the group of 4. That bullet will shoot well to the 1023 yard iron on the BIG HILL using the 14 twist with a very tight case necked chamber CPA .40-65. but gets wild in the 16 ROT's at that range.

[Randy Bohannon]

Here’s a 200 yard target I shot a couple of years ago with P.P. Steve Brooks Money Bullet @410grs. I don’t remember what brass I used as I didn’t write it down but it’s as good as anything I have shot in my Shiloh 40-70 SS. I need to see if I can do it again.

[JWT]

I finally received the Sharps 74 that I ordered five years ago so I guess I will be getting into the 40 straight challenge with a 40-90. I have been accumulating brass so I am good there. Any advice on paper patch and/or grease groove molds would be greatly appreciated.

[semtav]

Any advice on paper patch and/or grease groove molds would be greatly appreciated.


I have only shot this bullet in a 40-82, but the 403415E is a tack driver in it with a fast twist barrel.
It's a Dual diameter paper patch bullet.
It has a bit more Major diameter so you seat it in a bit. Baco also makes one that you barely seat in the case. Just don't remember the number.

[Lead pot]

The Dual diameter is a good design, especially if your chamber has a bunch of free bore. I have a couple rifles that have long free bore from .05 to .110" and as much as .400"
The .400" I use a free bore diameter PP that fits the free bore and seated into the throat lead but this can be a problem like using a GG having alignment issues.
The DD PP has the advantage or the Major base at groove diameter with a 3º taper down to the minor and longer shank diameter keeping that shank patched at bore diameter chambered straight like a Breach seated bullet.

A chamber with a lot of free bore can be made to shoot well using a GG bullet. But the design of the bullet has to be changed some what is normally used now. It has to look like a PP straight sided with out a bore riding step down, it has to be at the free bore diameter and it will shoot just as well as a chambered rifle with out the free bore.

Those bullets I swaged for the .400" plus free bore rifle and the grooved as well as the knurled are at free bore diameter with out a step down at the shank ogive transition like a bore riding GG has

318600

[.22-10-45]

Back in 96' my custom Axtel Sharps model 77' in .40-21/2" arrived after nearly a years wait. Loaded up Rem. brass (stretched .30-40 from Buffalo Arms) with H4895 and the Ideal .405 Win. bullet cast 20-1 with home brewed lube. First time out at 100yd. range..shot 5 into 1 ragged hole..not supposed to happen that easy!....OOPS!... my bad..completely missed B.P. forum.
Now then..I have an original Remington rolling block mid-range in.40-70 str. I only use real black in this one. Using Swiss
1 1/2 and a Brooks 330gr. Postal cast 20-1 .409dia. and home brewed lube, getting around 1" to 1 1/8" groups at 100yds. Using blowtube between shots.

[Chill Wills]

I just got done with loading the ammo for Saturday's BPCR Silhouette match. I will be using the Highwall rifle and 40-70 SS chamber cut for shortened Hornady's 405Win. brass. This is the same rifle and case I have been working with since starting this post. Same load too. 40-70 SS with a 461 grain Creedmoor bullet cast in hard 95-2.5-2.5 alloy to hold the nose from slumping. Alloys of 20 -1 and 16-1 did not do it and poor accuracy was the result. I also am using a thicker wad, .090" LDPE. Also, the same power charge, 64.5grs of 50-50 Olde Swissford ffg.

I tweaked the load a little for this match to see if it will be at all better (more accurate) at the rams. The only change I made was to use everything the same but seat the bullet out a little longer. My OAL (loaded) before was 3.515". Now trying OAL of 3.575. Before, I was using a little jump into the rifling and now this bullet is seating gently up against the rifling. I made this change, not because of poor ram count but because I put it on paper at 600yds with a friend pulling in the pits. For one group, I asked him not to mark the hits while I shot a group so I could see the roundness of the holes. The load worked very well with little vertical, however, it was hard to tell but I think a saw just the slightest hint of a tip in the cardboard target.

If I get the chance, I better shoot a few on paper before Saturday just to make sure I did not load myself into a problem.

I am out of picture credit so no pictures!!! I need to work on that.

[Don McDowell]

I know this flies into the face of some beliefs, but what I think is going on comes from a bunch of rounds down range thru a 405 Winchester.
I just don’t think blackpowder can generate enough velocity to keep long heavy bullets stable in a fast twist 40 cal
Load that baby up with 4895 or stiff charges of 5744 and the groups get smaller and bullet holes stay round

[Chill Wills]

I know this flies into the face of some beliefs, but what I think is going on comes from a bunch of rounds down range thru a 405 Winchester.
I just don’t think blackpowder can generate enough velocity to keep long heavy bullets stable in a fast twist 40 cal
Load that baby up with 4895 or stiff charges of 5744 and the groups get smaller and bullet holes stay round

Don???? Smokeless powder in a Black powder match? Hmmmm... I might as well bring a 6.5 Creedmoor.:kidding:

The ten shot group Dick H. preserved for me in the 600yd pit only had 5" of vertical. We didn't have wind flags out, just using mirage for wind and shooting iron sights on the round black bull. I think the load shoots pretty well at this point. I just hope to see if a little front end support for the bullet before launching will aid in the yaw. .....if there is yaw.? I may have read the cardboard wrong.
If the bullet was tipping, it wasn't much. I shot nine turkeys last match at Smithmoor range and the miss was me making a bad break. Called it high and it was high. The mirage was so rough at Rams we could not see the hits through the spotting scope much less center up the target with iron sights. I only connected with 6 rams. That was a hard condition to hit anything.

This is the best shooting bullet I have had in a 70-70 SS since 2004 when I first started shooting the Axtell sharps. Now I am on to the Winchester which fits me better. BTW- leading is zero with this load just in case someone was wondering.

[Don McDowell]

Just wondering if 3f might give enough velocity to keep that bullet stable in all condition?
Not sure about the 6.5 but maybe some blackthorn duplexes.����

[Chill Wills]

Why do you think the bullet is not stable? I think it very well could be very stable in varying strong conditions. It has proved stable in regular conditions.

[Don McDowell]

Well I hope it does work for you but from the couple of decades of messing with the 405 my experience is those heavy 40 cal bullets need to crawl out the end of the barrel somewhere north of 1600 fps to be dependable at distance. Even at that as they tend to slow down and hit some wind currents things can get a bit off kilter jumping up to 1800 + helps.

[Chill Wills]

Well I hope it does work for you but from the couple of decades of messing with the 405 my experience is those heavy 40 cal bullets need to crawl out the end of the barrel somewhere north of 1600 fps to be dependable at distance. Even at that as they tend to slow down and hit some wind currents things can get a bit off kilter jumping up to 1800 + helps.

Don, I am shooting a 40-70 Sharps Straight using the 405 Winchester Hornady brass as the bases of the 40-70 cases. I have mega powder capacity. A 13 twist and stability well in excess of what the formulas require. I have no idea what you keep talking about ....1600, 1800 FPS???? This is Black Powder Cartridge Rifle silhouette. The rifle is working like a champ.

[Lead pot]

Since I been down grating from my large calibers and reading these posts on the .40-70 I drug my .40-2.5-70 out of retirement for many years :D I even have some shells left over I think from the Alliance Gong shoot from the early 2000 loaded that have turned gray and dingy. These are loaded with 68 grs of 2F Goes exp with a 1.4" long PP at 418 grs.
This was my load for the long range shoots and I think they reached around 1250 - 1280 fps not sure anymore, shot with my 1/16 twist Shiloh. this load held well to the 1K and at Lodi for the 800, 900 and the 1000 yard paper match and with round holes through the paper. I really don't know why it ended up buried deep in the iron box.
You can see that they turned gray like me. :D
I was going to the range with them this morning but it's pouring down rain.

318705

[Chill Wills]

Post match report today.
40-70 SS shooting the 461 grain 1.515" length Creedmoor bullet in the 13-twist barrel.
The rifle and load shot very well. (again!) Light but tricky winds were the rule. Though I never hope to shoot in hard twisty winds with sheer to knock the bullets around, shooting well in those kinds of conditions really prove a bullets worth. Today good conditions prevailed, the bullet and load accuracy was all I hope for but after three matches of good conditions, I still don't know how stable this bullet can be when things get tough. I hope to shoot it at 600yds in the paper target cardboard again this coming week to see how round the holes of the current load looks.

Zero leading with the 95-2.5-2.5 alloy

[Don McDowell]

A real good test would be if you could get on the 800 yard line at Byers in the typical winds there

[Chill Wills]

A real good test would be if you could get on the 800 yard line at Byers in the typical winds there

It would be interesting to shoot a 8, 9, 1000y creedmoor....

[Lead pot]

I have to dig into my score sheets and see if I can find the finals for Lodi that I shot the .40-70 at the 8,9 and 1000 yd match. I think it was around 2015.
I only used it once at Lodi and it held pretty well.
Kurt

[Chill Wills]

Kurt, as you know, it is generally thought that the 40 cal is at a great disadvantage to the 45's in Creedmoor.
I don't know.
I have always shot Creedmoor with my 45's. Oddly, I have had some really good finishes using the smallest 45, the 45-70 early on but switched to the larger 45's and stuck with them.
"Trust the science!" they say.
Caliber should not have a bearing on 1000yd outcome and Bc controls what works best. Just look at F-class rifles. But, we all shoot 45's.
So, if Bc really controls and not caliber, this very long, high Bc 40 caliber bullet should really shine. I have never shot a 40cal past 600yds. I will say, in 2015 I set the NRA 600yd 10 shot record at the nationals (Whittington Center) with a 40-60 Maynard shooting a 407grn DanT bullet. Can 40's run with the big dog's at 1000yds? Not sure. What were your Lodi scores?

[Lead pot]

The .40 is lacking over the larger calibers at long range but I have seen the .40-65 and the .40-70 place pretty high and with my limited ability I have ended up in the mid to high 470's with my .40-70 at the 800-1000.
Heck just this season I heard that the .38-50 won the 1000. I feel that it's still the person shooting that can finish with the high score.
I shot my .40-70 today shooting cases empty that have been loaded for many years and pulled three cases in halve :D

[Don McDowell]

From observing in the pits pulling targets of shooters shooting 38's and 40's, things fall apart pretty fast when the winds pickup or get twitchy. But that's not to say that the big 40's like the various versions of the 40-82 and the 40-90 bn can't be in the thick of things.
But no matter what the bc it boils down to bullet length/twist and velocity. The velocity part is where things fall apart for our beloved bpcr's when the distances get long.
I've actually watched bullets that shoot lights out at 600 and less loose stability as the ranges get longer and instead of coming into the target in a nice arc look more like they're riding the handrail on a spiral stair case, yet still leave nice round holes in the target.

[steveu]

Michael, how did the match go last week?

[45-110]

I am building up a Ballard in 40-70 with a 1-14 twist. Going to use the shorter 415 gr. PP DD that has worked so very well in my .40-82 silhouette. My scores went up considerately when I went from a longer 450 gr bullet to the shorter version. 900 yds is pushing it, but have been very pleased by ending up in the top 3 shooters for our local matches.
kw

[Chill Wills]

Michael, how did the match go last week?

Steve, I am not sure I learned much at that match. The mirage was as bad as anything I have ever seen.... or not seen! Hits and misses could not be seen even with spotting scopes half the time. Those of us shooting iron sight may have had it better than the scope shooters because we just had a gray fuzzy blur to aim at if you found your target at all. The scope guys were telling me their targets were dancing and dodging in and out of their crosshairs and looking through the rifle scope was like swimming under water without a diving mask on.
Anyway - all that to say the scores were not so great. However, still fun and seeing everyone still made for a great day.

There is a match in Watkins, Colo tomorrow.

[Chill Wills]

At yesterday's match I learned I have been shooting with a broken firing pin.[smilie=b:
That can give the impact enough vertical to make me wonder what was my old eyeballs and what was the ignition. In a way, this is hopeful!