Crimp for 40sw

[dearslayer]

A while back I enquired on here regarding the 40sw and Win231 powder and an issue I was having with the FCD,and I haven't really reloaded any since that time. Not enough time to do everything that needs doing in life I guess. So I have managed to step into it again and I went back to that older thread and someone had mentioned that it's important that the crimp measure .0416-0.418. Given the issue I was having with the FCD I decided to crimp using the seating die and it seemed to be going ok until I revisited that thread and checked the current crimp. The boolits are not moving this time round and I thought the crimp looked ok but when I measured, the crimp was 0.425. The plunk test in my barrel works fine and drops freely in and out. What am I missing. Should I try to squeeze the crimp to 0.416-0.418?? Perhaps I had best check the calibration on my caliber today to be sure it's correct. Can't do it now cuz I'm at work.

[fredj338]

Dont bother measuring. IF it chamber checks, good to go. What I do though is do a dummy round, pull the bullet & measure the bullet after crimping. Too much crimp reduces the bullet dia & you can get key holes.

[dearslayer]

Well I loaded and shot about 60 rounds this evening and everything cycled and went smoothly. I just have to concentrate on accuracy now because at the time it wasn't my main concern. Accuracy wasn't bad but I was more concerned with making sure the gun cycled and fed okay. I'll load some more and test for accuracy. The only thing I don't like is I'm still having the same issue as before whereby the cases are coming back to hit me in the face. The last time I mentioned this I explored the ejector and such and everything seemed fine so I still don't know why it's popping empty cases directly back at my head. Doesn't seem to be every round but the majority.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have found the casing in the face problem to be caused by one of two things: Either the angle of the ejector hook which controls the angle at which the case will be ejected out of the port, or the load itself. You might find that a more powerful, less powerful, or load with a different powder will solve the problem, as the velocity and timing of the slide changes with the load. I'd start with trying different loads before I got out the file for the ejector.

I've usually had great luck with the FCD in all cartridges and calibers tried, but folks loaded very good ammo without it before it came along. If your standard crimp die works satisfactorily, stick with it.

DG

[gwpercle]

You don't need to measure squat ... put a moderate Taper Crimp on the boolit , with the seating-crimping die that came in the set .
Take the round out and press on the boolit with your thumb ...hard ... if it moves , add more crimp ... if it don't move , press the boolit nose against the edge of your bench ... firmly but not all Magilla Gorilla on it ... if it moves , add just a little more crimp ... if it holds firm , you got it .
So many times people post / books give dimensions but fail to take into cosideration boolit diameter .. that dimension is only good for that diameter boolit and cast boolits are larger than J-Words ... taking measurements is a waste of time ...testing the boolit with thumb and bench edge ...that will tell you the story ! I've loaded handgun ammo for 50+ years and never needed a FCD ...the die that comes in the box will work fine if you adjust it correctly ... Dummy Rounds can help you set adjustments (case with boolit , no powder - no primer ) once you get seating depth then crimps worked out semi-auto's can be seat/taper crimp in one step .

If you don't have one , a Kinetic Bullet puller can be used to pull those bullets that slide back into the case ... a couple light taps brings them forward and you can add more crimp (turn the crimp die down) and try again .
Gary

[popper]

SA try to eject sideways but slide speed (controlled by load power) will get them going more vertical. What is your bullet weight and 231 load & pistol? Yup, taper crimp works fine, ditch the FCD for pistol.

[dearslayer]

I've ordered a plain old Taper crimp die and it should be here Thursday. I'm using a Para Ordnance 16/40 Limited. Using 4.7gr of Win 231 under a cast 165gr boolit from my MP mold ...402-165 TC. After powder coating and sizing I believe it's around 168gr give or take.

[fredj338]

You may get better results with softer load but often cases in the face are extractor/ejector issues. What pistol?

[mdi]

FWI; I don't crimp any semi-auto handloads. I just deflare with a deflaring die (aka taper crimp die) and plunk test. Many handloads of 4 different caliber semi-auto, I have had zero problems. Neck tension keeps bullets in place...

[dearslayer]

You may get better results with softer load but often cases in the face are extractor/ejector issues. What pistol?

It's a Para Ordnance 16/40 limited.

[35 Rem]

I'm new to the 40 S&W but I just measured some of my loads and the case diameter at the crimp is .422. These are used in 2 different Glocks and are loaded with some Berrys plated bullets. I've only fired about 150 so far but have had no problems with bullets moving or easy chambering. The loaded rounds fall into the chambers when holding the bare barrel in hand to do a plunk test.

[1006]

For a 1911, a recoil spring is easy enough to change. You could order a calibration pack from gun springs.com, Wilson Combat, etc, or just acquire a few different weight springs and try them. I would try a 14, 16, and an 18; see what happens. They are cheap, and you may be due for one, anyway. Or, if you are running a shock buffer, simply take it out. You may not be using one, but if you are, try it without it installed—the slide will travel a little further and sling the brass a little differently.

My personal set up with standard or reduced loads (not extra hot loads) with a factory gun in 40 is a 14 pound recoil, 18 pound main/hammer spring-no shock buffer.

https://www.gunsprings.com/cID1/mID1/dID1#799

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you are at .425 you have NO CRIMP WHATSOEVER! Your bullet is .401 +.011+.011 for the case wall thickness on both sides = .423! if your case wall thickness is .012 per side then that =.425

If your Case Wall thickness is .011 and you are getting .425, you have not removed all of the Flare you put in the case mouth, and only part of the case neck is holding the bullet in place !!.

IE: Only the "Neck Tension" is holding the bullet in place. That may, or may not, be enough?

I'm the one who told you about .416-.418 measurement across the case mouth with the caliper blade half on and half off the case mouth.

This is not and easy measurement to take with calipers and takes some practice and you must get repeat readings several times to insure that You got a valid reading in the first place..

Using the correct .416-.418 measurement IE: .417-.401= .016/2=.008 -.011 =.003 per side that the case mouth is pressed into the bullet locking it in place, which in turn means that there is .008 of the case mouth left to head space on the chamber.

The reason why all this matters is because this cartridge runs at 35,000 psi. And if the bullet gets set back during recoil or chambering it will cause a Pressure Spike which may have a negative effect.

Just because a gun will run with no crimp doesn't mean it will never have a problem. All it means is that you got away with it.

If it didn't matter, then every factory loaded cartridge in existence would not be Crimped! The .40 S&W is the one cartridge where all of this matters !!! I can't emphasize this enough!

My Last .02 on this subject!

Randy

[justindad]

Adding to what Randy said… I read on here one time that factory ammo uses some sort of a coating on either the bullets of inside of the brass to increase the friction between the two, thereby reducing setback. I had previously figured this was the case, based on some .357 Sig ammo I had seen.
*
Close the case mouth just to the point that it is no longer the largest diameter. You can over-crimp to the point that it will weaken the joint and increase setback (due to poisson effect).
*
Measuring the diameter of the case mouth is tricky, and dependent upon your brass thickness. As shown in the image below, I like to hold the round in the jaws of a caliper to confirm the mouth is just ever so slightly crimped. Looking at the bottom jaw of the calipers, and you can see light passing between the jaw and the case mouth. Another thing that can be done here is to pivot the round while in the jaws of the caliper (pivot in an axis perpendicular to the case’s cylindrical axis); the pivot point will be where the largest diameter is. If the case mouth pivots outside of the jaws, then the largest diameter is behind the case mouth.
317566

[dearslayer]

If you are at .425 you have NO CRIMP WHATSOEVER! Your bullet is .401 +.011+.011 for the case wall thickness on both sides = .423! if your case wall thickness is .012 per side then that =.425

If your Case Wall thickness is .011 and you are getting .425, you have not removed all of the Flare you put in the case mouth, and only part of the case neck is holding the bullet in place !!.

IE: Only the "Neck Tension" is holding the bullet in place. That may, or may not, be enough?

I'm the one who told you about .416-.418 measurement across the case mouth with the caliper blade half on and half off the case mouth.

This is not and easy measurement to take with calipers and takes some practice and you must get repeat readings several times to insure that You got a valid reading in the first place..

Using the correct .416-.418 measurement IE: .417-.401= .016/2=.008 -.011 =.003 per side that the case mouth is pressed into the bullet locking it in place, which in turn means that there is .008 of the case mouth left to head space on the chamber.

The reason why all this matters is because this cartridge runs at 35,000 psi. And if the bullet gets set back during recoil or chambering it will cause a Pressure Spike which may have a negative effect.

Just because a gun will run with no crimp doesn't mean it will never have a problem. All it means is that you got away with it.

If it didn't matter, then every factory loaded cartridge in existence would not be Crimped! The .40 S&W is the one cartridge where all of this matters !!! I can't emphasize this enough!

My Last .02 on this subject!

Randy

Dang!! ...I"m just a newbie compared to the lot of you more experienced folks.The way you explained this makes perfect sense.I have about 100 rounds loaded so should I run them through the taper die till I achieve the suggested measurement??

[45_Colt]

If the crimp on 40 S&W is so important to prevent set back. Then why aren't the bullets cannalured? And the case crimped into it?

45_Colt

[Tim357]

If the crimp on 40 S&W is so important to prevent set back. Then why aren't the bullets cannalured? And the case crimped into it?

45_Colt

because it's a rimless case that should headspace on the case mouth. if you have a good extractor hook, it may headspace on the hook. too much crimp, not enough extractor hook and the case will sink to far into the chamber, causing either a misfire or a huge increase in chamber pressure caused by the bullet being pinched in the throat at ignition

[dearslayer]

Adding to what Randy said… I read on here one time that factory ammo uses some sort of a coating on either the bullets of inside of the brass to increase the friction between the two, thereby reducing setback. I had previously figured this was the case, based on some .357 Sig ammo I had seen.
*
Close the case mouth just to the point that it is no longer the largest diameter. You can over-crimp to the point that it will weaken the joint and increase setback (due to poisson effect).
*
Measuring the diameter of the case mouth is tricky, and dependent upon your brass thickness. As shown in the image below, I like to hold the round in the jaws of a caliper to confirm the mouth is just ever so slightly crimped. Looking at the bottom jaw of the calipers, and you can see light passing between the jaw and the case mouth. Another thing that can be done here is to pivot the round while in the jaws of the caliper (pivot in an axis perpendicular to the case’s cylindrical axis); the pivot point will be where the largest diameter is. If the case mouth pivots outside of the jaws, then the largest diameter is behind the case mouth.
317566

I just used your method and my pivot point is at the case mouth indicating that it's larger in diameter then the lower case and will require more crimp. Just wondering if it will swage the boolit.I will try a dummy round and pull it to measure.

[45_Colt]

because it's a rimless case that should headspace on the case mouth. if you have a good extractor hook, it may headspace on the hook. too much crimp, not enough extractor hook and the case will sink to far into the chamber, causing either a misfire or a huge increase in chamber pressure caused by the bullet being pinched in the throat at ignition

Then the crimp isn't to prevent set back. But for removing the slight flare on the case mouth.

45_Colt

[Dusty Bannister]

Sometimes we forget that commercial ammo is mostly jacketed bullets and completely out of control by the maker once sold to the consumer. And usually are of smaller diameter. Too many times I am reading of issues caused by trying to follow the Jacketed bullet "rules" when dealing with our own cast bullets.

One needs sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place in the case, but not to the point of compressing the bullet smaller.

The comment mentioned why no crimp groove. No such feature in the no lube groove bullets that are so popular with the PC crowd these days. Not hearing a lot of issues from that practice.

[45_Colt]

The comment mentioned why no crimp groove. No such feature in the no lube groove bullets that are so popular with the PC crowd these days. Not hearing a lot of issues from that practice.

You would if they were heavy revolver rounds.

45_Colt

[Dusty Bannister]

Granted, but you changed the conditions. So perhaps you could also add tube magazine rifles and whatever other factors not stated by the OP. This is not thread drift, this is thread surge.

[45_Colt]

Granted, but you changed the conditions. So perhaps you could also add tube magazine rifles and whatever other factors not stated by the OP. This is not thread drift, this is thread surge.

[smilie=s: :popcorn: [smilie=s:

45_Colt

[dearslayer]

Well I adjusted the tamper Crimp die enough to achieve the 0.416-0.418 as previously discussed. I could feel the compression on the case and boolit through the press lever. I pulled the boolit to see what it looked like and to measure. It seems that measuring wasn't really necessary ( I did Anyway ..0.3935 ) just by looking at the huge crease/indented ring on the boolit indicating way too much compression.
317605317606

Sent from my LYA-L0C using Tapatalk

[popper]

You use the same load I do, works fine in my XDm40.
hit me in the face -- Mine will sometimes toss them up, not back very often. Remember, there is a bullet below that is pushing UP. Visualize the slide unlocks, barrel tilts, as case clears chamber there is upward pressure that can push base up off the bolt - momentum of the case flips it back. Other problem with slide speed can cause dents in case body or mouth (too fast and hits slide).

[justindad]

How thick is your brass?
*
With the bullet seated, but before you apply any crimp - what is the case diameter, measured at the bottom driving band of the boolit?

[justindad]

Since 0.008” is a giant loss in size - what is the diameter of your boolit before you seat it?

[dearslayer]

Boolit diameter is 0.4010. Brass is 0.010.... diameter at the driving band before crimp...0.4230...317646317647317648

Sent from my LYA-L0C using Tapatalk

[justindad]

Pull the boolit out of that case without crimping, and then check the diameter. Need to double confirm your taper crimp operation truly is what swaged your boolit down 0.008”.
*
The case mouth should be crimped to 0.423 MAX (this number will vary depending on the brass thickness). You might be able to go bigger than 0.423, but you should then do a series of tests & measurements to determine how much bullet setback you get, and if your gun jams. (Cycle the round through your action 3 times and measure the change in OACL - the maximum allowance will depend on how hot your loads are.) Personally, I would go for 0.421 - 0.422”. (Pull crimped boolits and check for a meaningful reduction in size.). You have boolit setback competing with both cartridge feeding and boolit swaging… just gotta find the optimal spot. You may also need to harden your lead, but I would not go there just yet.
*
The fourth decimal place on those calipers is not reliable. If you need that level of precision, then you need micrometers or maybe an analog Starrett caliper.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Then the crimp isn't to prevent set back. But for removing the slight flare on the case mouth.

45_Colt

You are seriously misinformed! NO, the crimp is there to lock the bullet in place and prevent set back !!!.

And Deerslayer: What kind of crimping die are you using? Something is not right as the crimp die should not be going more than a Few .000 below the mouth of the case, and therefore shouldn't be sizing the Case or Boolit. The crimp itself shouldn't be more than about .015 long.

The flare gets removed as a byproduct of the Crimping Operation not the main point of the operation.

A proper crimp doesn't size the boolit. it merely turns the flare from outside to inside which results in the Cartridge Mouth creating a step on the boolit that acts as a stop to prevent Boolit Setback, and by extension prevent a Spike in Chamber Pressure which can be very dangerous.

What is the ID of your case after Expanding and Flaring? It should be about .002 smaller than the Boolit. IE: .002. Case Neck Tension on the boolit. The crimp itself should not be altering the outside diameter of the case and by extension the diameter of the boolit. Lots of times with soft boolits you will get some reduction in diameter of the boolit but .008 = something else is wrong!

And like Justindad said, you need a Dial Caliper as the Digital ones are not as accurate and harder to verify that you got a Repeating Dimensional Reading. You need to be able to see the needle move so you can tell when you got the smallest reading across a given diameter. This takes lots of practice!!! Even after being a Machinist for nearly 50 years I still take the same measurement several times to insure I got a correct Reading. You with "not 50 years experience," will need to do this as well..

Randy

[dearslayer]

Sorry it will be a day or so before I can get to check some of these suggestions. I'm doing 12 hour night shifts and it sucks. The Crimp die I'm using is a brand new Lee Taper Crimp die that I just got last week. I thought I was putting a proper crimp on by just adjusting the die to just crimp the very edge of the case which it was and it was passing the plunk test and the boolit could not be depressed by hand against my bench no matter how hard I pushed. I only re adjusted it after it was suggested that I try to achieve the .416-418 measurement. That obviously didn't work out because I had to screw the die down so far that it compressed the boolit the get that measurement.
In the next couple days I'll try to re read these post and report back with answers. Can't do much from my office at work unfortunately......

Respectfully

Sent from my LYA-L0C using Tapatalk

[justindad]

There’s reports of the Lee FCD swaging down boolits, but that has not been my experience. Might be worthwhile to crimp with your seater for (in two separate steps). I wouldn’t bet on that causing the 0.008” swage, but it’s worth a look.

[dearslayer]

There’s reports of the Lee FCD swaging down boolits, but that has not been my experience. Might be worthwhile to crimp with your seater for (in two separate steps). I wouldn’t bet on that causing the 0.008” swage, but it’s worth a look.
I stopped using the FCD because the case had a hard time getting pass the carbide sizing ring hence why I purchased the taper crimp die. It doesn't have the carbide sizing ring. Also if you read back a couple of posts you will see that it only got swaged down when I made the adjustment to explore what was happening.

[45_Colt]

You are seriously misinformed! NO, the crimp is there to lock the bullet in place and prevent set back !!!.

Randy

No need to scream and shout, I can hear just fine at normal conversation levels. Besides, screaming and shouting won't make a false statement true.

The boolit is locked in place via case tension. If not then something isn't sized correctly. Either the case diameter is too large for the boolit, or the boolit is too small for the case diameter.

On top of that, dearslayer (the OP) isn't having any type of set back issues. Read his posts and you will see what the real issue is.

45_Colt

[dearslayer]

I just quickly seated a boolit,no powder or primer and then pulled the boolit to measure without crimping at all. The boolits measures 0.401 same as before being seated. Now remember the taper crimp die is NOT swaging down the boolit if I adjusted it to just removed the bell on the case and apply the slightest crimp. My previous post whereby the bullet was swaged down .008 was only due to the fact I was trying to get the diameter of the case down to 0.416- 0.418 as suggested earlier so to achieve that, I had to turn the taper crimp die down quite a bit. That was the experimental part of this equation. When I get more time I will do a dummy round with the taper crimp die just removing the bell and I will cycle it through the action 3 or 4 times to see if there's any boolit setback. Right now unfortunately I have to run out the door for another 12-hour night shift. Work sure does get in the way up the fun stuff.

[W.R.Buchanan]

(OK,,, You are seriously misinformed! NO, the crimp is there to lock the bullet in place and prevent set back !!!.) How's that? [smilie=w:

As far as me putting up false statements? I have Warned You and if you think you know what's best in this case then knock yourself out.

Please note my Post Count? I've been here since 2008. and I first posted about this subject back then when I first arrived here after posting about loading the .40 S&W over at www.trapshooters.com.

If the bullet is only locked in place by Case Neck Tension, then there would be no Factory Cartridges with Crimped Bullets. How come EVERY FACTORY ROUND IS CRIMPED???

As far as Deerslayer???? According to his last post above this post,,, He Mis-understood that the whole case was to be sized down to .416-.418. It is NOT!

That measurement is at the very end of the case mouth not the whole case!!! No wonder he is swaging his boolits down?. The rest of the case is untouched.

Go back a Re Read the instructions I posted on how to measure the Case Mouth. If you case measures .423 with the Boolit seated it should read that after the crimp is placed.

I have been loading .40 S&W since 2007 and have Loaded 20,000+ rounds and the crimp has been to the correct amount without any Case Deformation whatsoever. I have used a Lee Factory Crimp Die the entire time on my Dillon 550 B. When I start loading a new batch of cases I always check the Crimp Diameter at the case mouth and sometimes have to make minor changes in the the Top Adjustment Screw on the die to get back to the .416-.418 dimension. This is usually necessary because of changing from Plated Bullets to Cast Boolits.

Randy

[dearslayer]

(OK,,, You are seriously misinformed! NO, the crimp is there to lock the bullet in place and prevent set back !!!.) How's that? [smilie=w:

As far as me putting up false statements? I have Warned You and if you think you know what's best in this case then knock yourself out.

Please note my Post Count? I've been here since 2008. and I first posted about this subject back then when I first arrived here after posting about loading the .40 S&W over at www.trapshooters.com.

If the bullet is only locked in place by Case Neck Tension, then there would be no Factory Cartridges with Crimped Bullets. How come EVERY FACTORY ROUND IS CRIMPED???

As far as Deerslayer? He's got a Die Problem or a Die Setup problem. I can't fix that for him because I can't see what he is doing wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's doing something wrong or else his cases wouldn't be getting sized down with the crimp.

I have been loading .40 S&W since 2007 and have Loaded 20,000+ rounds and the crimp has been to the correct amount without any Case Deformation whatsoever. I have used a Lee Factory Crimp Die the entire time on my Dillon 550 B. When I start loading a new batch of cases I always check the Crimp Diameter at the case mouth and sometimes have to make minor changes in the the Top Adjustment Screw on the die to get back to the .416-.418 dimension. This is usually necessary because of changing from Plated Bullets to Cast Boolits.

Randy

Just reading this at work so my question is, when I measure the crimp for the 416-418 should I be measuring at the very edge of the case where it actually tapers down or should I be measuring near the bottom drive band of the boolit? Perhaps I'm not measuring correctly or in the correct spot..... I'm just trying to learn and eliminate any possibilities. I try to learn something from everyone's experience and advise so it's all a little overwhelming but I want to stick with it to the end.

[Oldfeller]

I have been sitting here running a LEE powder through expander (using a shell case based custom dipper) followed by a bone stock LEE bullet seating die and that is followed by a LEE factory crimp die all on a old manual style three hole LEE Rifle Turret press --- manually progressing the head to the next stage while you guys continue to snarl at each other.

I have intentionally removed or defeated all the auto indexing items as I found the occasional original problems that cropped up with LEE equipment got multipled by using LEE auto indexing into situations that could not be recognized and fixed in a timely enough fashion and resulted in lot based teardowns.

This means my current 3 holer acts like a single station press, with a fairly repeatable rapid manual die changeover. Think of it as 3 manual presses set up in a row --- it allows you to troubleshoot quicker and cleaner if you think of it as 3 manual presses in a row.

Exampes I will speak about are powder coating that is applied on standard LEE designs, the 145 grain shoudered .401 bullet and again on the heavier 175 grain truncated cone .401 bullet. If it is LEE, I am currently doing it and dealing with it right now as we speak.

I will also offer tips and tricks that allow crazy things like instant bullet pulling on a 3 hole press with no mess or fiddling around.

I needed to do such tricks because of the very non-standard stuff I tend to do with my 40 caliber Glock 22 and my Beretta 92 pistols --- using slow for caliber pulled powders such as Bartlett WC820 milsurp (30 cal carbine pull down powder). 13 grains is a lot of slow powder (compressed a fair bit) and these wind up being "close to 10mm" power levels when the bullets get heavier.

These are the LEE based hard cast bullet mythical "bear loads" for the 40 S&W ......




https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?459879-Let-s-talk-about-LEE-Precision-40-S-amp-W-once-you-get-to-soft-powder-coated-bullets


I am not going to spoil this thread. I will be discussing your LEE based processing questions (also offering help with powder coated LEE heavy and light bullets) but over here.

My rules are very simple -- be polite and nice to everybody. Don't type in all caps, that is impolite. Don't bring a feud to me, I simply don't reply to somebody who has an axe to grind.

My name is Oldfeller, I predate both the 40 S&W and all the versions of this current list and actually go back 3 levels back before that to the precusor lists that were email based. I became list active when the 8mm and 6.5mm milsurps began to cry out for a decent cast bullet mold. I helped start the very first version of these older lists and I remember when your main head dude was a newbie. I set up and ran the first versions of the LEE group buys. I set up the first Shooters stocked custom items that still remain. I have been banned, slammed and kabammed over time and really don't care for much as going over all this stuff yet again is a public service in my eyes.

"Be NICE and polite" is the opporant word with me.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Look at the Pic. The Crimp is where the Black Line is at the mouth of the case. You can see that it only extends about .015 below the case mouth.

The Area below that on this case measures .423 where the bullet is Seated.

Just below the Base of the Bullet, the case measures .419 which is the product of Full Length Sizing the Case. The whole case was .419 before the bullet was seated.

When the bullet is seated it forces the case open to .423 That is .401 bullet +.011+.011 case wall thickness, which gives this Cartridge a Neck Tension of .002 per side

The top edge of the case where the crimp digs into the boolit measures .417 at the very top edge. This all means that the Crimp intrudes into the bullet .003 all the way around and creates a step on the bullet that prevents Bullet Set Back during Recoil and or Chambering.

Read this, and Re-Read this until you firmly understand it, This is all there is to it.

Hope this helps your understanding of this subject. Sorry about the pic, the site will not allow it to be erected.

Randy

[Oldfeller]

Randy,

Does this work with a soft lead bullet with a coating of polyester on it without cutting the coating and crushing the underlying lead? I can actually see the this thing is crushing into a jacketed bullet multiple thousandths which are non-functional force levels in this powder coated venue.

When using cast bullets that are polyester coated you have to start out with a start mouth taper from the taper expander portion of the powder through taper die that is pushed out just barely big enough to get the bullet to stop rocking. When you slowly seat the bullet, most of the taper you originally saw in the case mouth disappears as it converts into side grip support.

Putting a seated bullet into a Factory Crimp Die detects 3 bumps going into the carbide portion right at the mouth.
First bump (should be mild) is the taper lip that remains getting ironed flat.
Second bump (mild) is the "mid-hump" that comes from ironing the taper lip to flat.
Third bump is the material bunched up by the butt end of the bullet pushing its way into the case.

Now here is the news for Newbies --- for polyester coated cast lead bullets you don't want to push the the bullet into the FCD (Factory Crimp Die) mouth carbide portion all the way. You do not want to engage the bullet down deep inside the FCD (Factory Crimp Die) until it actually hits the thimble driven taper portion as that deep into the FCD action likes to step by step crush the polyester coated cast lead bullet. Once crushed, the bullet and the powder will not stay in place during repeated "loading from the magazine" cycle events. The crushed bullets will self-pull, then the slightly longer bullet then gets jammed into the rifling and then it gets pulled completely on extraction and the powder charge gets dumped in the chamber on extraction.

When you work with Polyester coated lead you must actively avoid the second two insertion bumps and try to stop with only the first "remove the taper lip" bump. I find that going to the second and third bumps gives you the "resized in the case" self pulling polymer bullet that folks are trying to tell you about.


Randy, do you get that we are talking about completely different worlds here?

317801

Nothing much from your jacketed bullet world actually works out here in powder coated soft lead world for very much ......


:popcorn:


Randy won't accept or consider other's ideas, he sticks with his preconceptions no matter what others may say.

[dearslayer]

Look at the Pic. The Crimp is where the Black Line is at the mouth of the case. You can see that it only extends about .015 below the case mouth.

The Area below that on this case measures .423 where the bullet is Seated.

Just below the Base of the Bullet, the case measures .419 which is the product of Full Length Sizing the Case. The whole case was .419 before the bullet was seated.

When the bullet is seated it forces the case open to .423 That is .401 bullet +.011+.011 case wall thickness, which gives this Cartridge a Neck Tension of .002 per side

The top edge of the case where the crimp digs into the boolit measures .417 at the very top edge. This all means that the Crimp intrudes into the bullet .003 all the way around and creates a step on the bullet that prevents Bullet Set Back during Recoil and or Chambering.

Read this, and Re-Read this until you firmly understand it, This is all there is to it.

Hope this helps your understanding of this subject. Sorry about the pic, the site will not allow it to be erected.

Randy

Thanks for all this info Randy, and thanks for having the patient to hold my hand through this sort to speak. I think I kind of understood it for the most part but with so much conflicting info it begins to cloud the understanding. Hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow night to check this all again. One question though ... When you say the crimp intrudes the cast boolit all the way round should I not be worried about that causing leading in the barrel whereby the powder coat is now essentially cut with the edge of the case. Would this be considered the same as shaving of the lead or would the .003 not be enough to break through the powder coat? Again please understand I'm trying to learn.

[justindad]

I just quickly seated a boolit,no powder or primer and then pulled the boolit to measure without crimping at all. The boolits measures 0.401 same as before being seated.
Excellent! This is what you want, even after you apply an adequate crimp.

Now remember the taper crimp die is NOT swaging down the boolit if I adjusted it to just removed the bell on the case and apply the slightest crimp. My previous post whereby the bullet was swaged down .008 was only due to the fact I was trying to get the diameter of the case down to 0.416- 0.418 as suggested earlier so to achieve that, I had to turn the taper crimp die down quite a bit.
That was a misunderstanding, which I believe you now understand. See the image below - only the portion of the case labeled “crimp length” should be affected.

That was the experimental part of this equation. When I get more time I will do a dummy round with the taper crimp die just removing the bell and I will cycle it through the action 3 or 4 times to see if there's any boolit setback. Right now unfortunately I have to run out the door for another 12-hour night shift. Work sure does get in the way up the fun stuff.

Refer to the first image below. The gage diameter at location #1 is where the crimp is applied. Mine measures 0.420” - some folks do a few thou more and some a few thou less. The crimp length for this pictured round is 0.035” long. It depends on your particular crimp die, but a crimp length anywhere in the range of 0.015 - 0.050” would not surprise me.

When I mentioned that you pivot the cartridge in the jaws of the calipers, the pivot point is where the crimp length ends (0.035” away from the case mouth for this exact round). The arrows at gage diameter #1 are directly on the case mouth. Notice that you can see light between the very edge of the case mouth and the calipers - that gap is only a few thou wide. The pivot axis could also be located at gage diameter #3, depending on meaningless imperfections, or intentional brass taper, etc. more often than not, my rounds pivot at the end of the crimp length.

Gage diameter #2 shows where the brass has sunk into the lube groove. Whether or not this is visible depends on your brass and the lube groove width. This is not meaningful if the case is not swaging down the boolit.

Gage diameter 3 is at the bottom driving band of the boolit. This could be the pivot axis instead of at the very end/bottom of the crimp length. Either location is fine, so long as the case mouth is not on the pivot axis.

Some folks might prefer that the round pivots on the case mouth. I don’t. Consider what you’ve read, test for proper feeding & chambering in your gun, and decide for yourself.

317721

In this next image you can see how the case mouth is measured. I try to gasp the round so that only half the thickness of the caliper jaws is touching the case. If your calipers are tilted at all, the measurement will be off - that is why this measurement is tricky to get right. Also keep in mind that the crimp length is tapered, making it nearly impossible to truly contact the case mouth.

317722

[dearslayer]

Everything is starting to become more clearer with each post. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. I really appreciate all the help.

[justindad]

The pictures I posted were crimped with a Redding Taper Crimp die. I do not have the Lee FCD in .40 S&W. There may be some nuanced differences as a result.

The boolit is the RCBS 10mm-200-SWC sized to 0.401”. Alloy is COWW + 1% Sn.

[dearslayer]

As mentioned in an earlier post I had to stop using the factory crimp die as the cases were too large to go past the bottom carbide sizing ring without a pretty noticeable thump. Once it was in the die and I tried to remove it, the bullet would be loose and I'd be able to turn it by hand. I believe it was swaging the bullet and the brass was bouncing back allowing everything to be loose.

[45_Colt]

This over-sizing can occur with the carbide FCD. Sometimes they come through on the small side, which isn't good.

You are correct about the boolit being swaged down and the brass bouncing back (spring back). Same can happen if there is too much of a taper crimp. And this is a crimp just being at the case mouth. As shown by justindad, just a smidgen of ironing out the mouth flare is all that is required.

Once this area is squared away can work on getting the empties to exit to the right. Odds are the extractor is clocking or the tension is wrong.

45_Colt

[W.R.Buchanan]

OF: Yes it works the exact same with with PC'd Boolits I have loaded thousands of Cast Boolits for .45 ACP (Lyman 452374) that were PC'd. First off PC is Polymer Based Paint and it is flexible. But since you are only impressing into it .003-.004 per side it in a tapered line is not cutting into the PC, only displacing it. My PC runs between .0005-.001 per side.

I don't know what is going on with your FCD but My loaded Cartridges don't' get expanded enough to be sized by the Carbide Ring at all. In fact I use my FCD with the Taper Crimp Parts removed as a Push Thru Die to Debulge .40 S&W cases. Been doing that for quite a few years. Then they get F/L sized during the loading OP.

This was originally done to Debulge the portion of the case that was expanded into the Feed Ramp on Gen 2 Glocks. They corrected the Chambers in Gen 3 Glocks and the problem mostly went away. However there are still plenty of Gen 2 Glocks out there (Mostly Police Trade ins) so you have to look for severely Bulged Cases if you are reloading Range Pickups, Especially from Police Pistol Ranges. I posted a pic of a Blown Out case in another thread recently and warned about reloading Federal Cases marked "FC" and "FC10". That was picked up after an officer blew his Gen 2 Glock at our range, and it was a factory loaded round..

I have never seen any of the problems you state in your "News for Newbies' paragraph. The cartridge shown in the picture was run into a Lee FCD as the final step. I was looking for a Cast Boolit round that I loaded a few weeks ago but I guess I shot them all up. Those Boolits were only sized and lubed (WW) but the dimensions were the same as the Plated Bullets because I backed the crimp off a couple of .000. I'd have to take the Expander out of the Powder die to measure it, but mistakes I have pulled have still measured .401 after going in the cases and then being removed with a hammer type puller. My WWW boolits run around 14-15 BN.

Justindad,,, Exxxcellent picture of the caliper jaws at the right place on the case mouth. How many hands do you have?

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

As mentioned in an earlier post I had to stop using the factory crimp die as the cases were too large to go past the bottom carbide sizing ring without a pretty noticeable thump. Once it was in the die and I tried to remove it, the bullet would be loose and I'd be able to turn it by hand. I believe it was swaging the bullet and the brass was bouncing back allowing everything to be loose.

See the part in my last explanation about taking the internal parts out of the FCD die and running all your cases thru that as a push thru die. That is called "De-Bulging." Lee sells a "Bulge Buster Kit."

De-Bulging .40 S&W cases when you first acquire them is a good idea as it finds all the deformed cases for you.

Then you will Full/Length Resize the cases as the first operation of the Loading Operation. This will reduce the outside diameter of the case further and then it gets opened back up a little when the Expander/Flaring Die is used before charging the case. Then you seat the boolit, then you crimp the boolit in place.

Randy

[dearslayer]

See the part in my last explanation about taking the internal parts out of the FCD die and running all your cases thru that as a push thru die. That is called "De-Bulging." Lee sells a "Bulge Buster Kit."

De-Bulging .40 S&W cases when you first acquire them is a good idea as it finds all the deformed cases for you.

Then you will Full/Length Resize the cases as the first operation of the Loading Operation. This will reduce the outside diameter of the case further and then it gets opened back up a little when the Expander/Flaring Die is used before charging the case. Then you seat the boolit, then you crimp the boolit in place.

Randy

When you say remove the internal parts from the factory crimp die you don't mean remove the carbide sizing ring at the bottom of the die right? That's what resizes the case correct? So I would be just removing the adjustable knob and the internal part on top for crimping correct?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes. You don't remove the Carbide Ring as that is what is doing the De-bulging. Look at the Lee Bulge Buster kit. It comes with Pusher and a Collection Bottle.

The only cartridge that needs this operation is the .40 S&W.

Randy

[dearslayer]

Yes. You don't remove the Carbide Ring as that is what is doing the De-bulging. Look at the Lee Bulge Buster kit. It comes with Pusher and a Collection Bottle.

The only cartridge that needs this operation is the .40 S&W.

Randy
So the bulge buster just pushes it through to collect in the bottle, whereas without it, I would have to use the shell holder and retract each case but does doing it this way accomplish the same thing, or does the buster just do it faster without any other benefit?

[popper]

Bulge buster was for (old) glock fired brass.
Ballistic engineer specifies that 30 cal seating force is ~70 lb. for jacketed bullet. Less for 40sw. Taper crimp should be applied by just applying a crimp to the top 10 thou of the case. As 40 brass shortens after several firings and NOT wanting to trim pistol brass, I just use the SS press handle to 'eyeball' it. Drop handle till it just 'hits', then a skosh down press. No problems for several thou rnds. cast. Lee pistol FCD has the bulge buster carbide ring, rifle doesn't.

[W.R.Buchanan]

So the bulge buster just pushes it through to collect in the bottle, whereas without it, I would have to use the shell holder and retract each case but does doing it this way accomplish the same thing, or does the buster just do it faster without any other benefit?

NO,,, you must push the case all the way thru the Die in order to remove the bulge which is at the bottom of the case right above the Extractor Groove. You will need a pusher that goes into the ram of your press. (Lee) the bottle isn't a must as you can catch the cases as they go thru the die. But it makes it easier. Just buy the Kit and another Carbide Factory Crimp Die, then you won't have to futz with taking your existing die apart and changing all your previous settings.

Here's the cheapest and fastest place to get it.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012847155?pid=882261 Bulge Buster Kit

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011209519?pid=289675 Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Total about $35. Then you have everything you need.

Randy

[GONRA]

GONRA sez - use MICROMETERS for diameters, CALIPERS for LENGTHS .

[dearslayer]

I have the stem from the Lee 40sw sizing kit and I tried using it this morning to push a case all the way through the crimp die. Damn I thought I would snap the lever on the little Lee press that I use for decapping and sizing. The case went in most of the way easily but then stopped. It took a lot of force till it finally thumped through with a BANG. I don't think I'd want to doing ANY cases like that. Is this normal????

[justindad]

I tried using the Lee Carbide FCD as a sizer for .45 ACP. The case would not go all the way through - I had to hammer it out. Maybe it’s the old simple lever press with small leverage, maybe I did something wrong, maybe my die is too small for my brass. Doesn’t really matter, I was just tinkering after I found out that was possible.
*
Redding makes a bulge buster for .40S&W / .357Sig only. Takes far less force to use. Redding’s die is almost certainly more accurate & precise for this purpose. If you need to fix a bulge in a .40, consider the Redding G-RX die.

[dearslayer]

I tried using the Lee Carbide FCD as a sizer for .45 ACP. The case would not go all the way through - I had to hammer it out. Maybe it’s the old simple lever press with small leverage, maybe I did something wrong, maybe my die is too small for my brass. Doesn’t really matter, I was just tinkering after I found out that was possible.
*
Redding makes a bulge buster for .40S&W / .357Sig only. Takes far less force to use. Redding’s die is almost certainly more accurate & precise for this purpose. If you need to fix a bulge in a .40, consider the Redding G-RX die.
Wow I just checked and that Redding die here in Canada on Amazon.ca is $173.00!!! That's a little steep.

[justindad]

That’s pretty high. I bought mine before 2019… swear to god I wouldn’t have paid that much… unless I was drinking. I probably did.
*
Edit: I got mine on sale for 97USD. I’ve done dumber things…

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK guys there is a difference between A "Full Length Sizing Die" and a "Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die." You need to figure out which ones you have? I can't do that for you. A .40 S&W case will NOT go all the way thru a F/L Sizing Die! Period! The Web of the case is too Big to "Swage down" or Compress, to go thru the die. It will however go thru a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die with the guts removed.

The ID of a .40/10MM F/L sizing die is .417 or .418 I have 2.

The ID of the FCD is .423 A case will go thru that one, but it runs thru easier if you lube the cases, but there is still some resistance... I use Dillon Case Lube and my RCBS Rock Chucker for that operation..

The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die is $20, used to be $15 when I got mine.

I actually bought one of the Redding Dies and it was $65 at the time and I sent it back because it was so poorly machined I couldn't stand to have it near me in my shop!!! Especially for 4X the price. I was truly insulted ! All of the knurling was double struck,,, Meaning whoever set it up on the Machine didn't know what they were doing. Redding states they are the worlds finest Reloading Dies, I beg to differ !!! And IMO they damn sure aren't worth the prices they ask. And the funny thing is that Lee dies will do anything a Redding die will do for 1/5 the cost !!!. Hard to argue with that !!!.

So after you get your Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die and Lee Bulge Buster Kit we can continue.

I just noticed something that might have played a part in your negative crimping experience. The sleeve that actually does the crimp has two ends. The ID on one end is tapered, that is the end that goes in the die facing down. The other end is NOT Tapered, it goes up to ride against the Adjustment Cap.

Randy

[dearslayer]

Fair enough but I'm not using the full length sizing die to de bulge. As mentioned earlier I stopped using the FCD because it was swaging my boolits and making them loose in the case and also it was extremely difficult to get them through the carbide sizing ring sooooooo that's why I put it aside and ordered and replaced it with the lee Tapered Crimp die. I'm now doing as suggested which is to remove the top adjustment screw and internal crimp bushing ( if thats what it's called ) and that die now sits in my Lee de capping and sizing press. This is where I had the problem with almost getting the case stuck ... IN THE FCD. I hope I'm not the one confusing everyone. If I am the please say so. I thought I was putting as much info as I could put there as to not confuse the readers.

Also I did have the proper tapered end down when I was using the FCD previously. I just looked to be sure.

[justindad]

Do you need case lube when you push a case through the Lee Carbide FCD?

[1006]

I never could get good results with the Factory Crimp Die. It over sized, “Coke Bottled”, the middle of my case. I use a standard taper crimp die on semi-auto pistol ammo, and a standard roll crimp die for revolvers ammo. The other Lee Dies have all worked quite well.

[Oldfeller]

Randy,

Don't you apply a small bell mouth form to the mouth of the case when loading up either a lubed lead or power coated bullet? And you don't have to remove this bell mouth form before calling the assembled round complete?

Putting the assembled round just into the mouth of the FCD carbide ring just to take care of the initial bell mouth does this without crushing the bullet or affecting the assembled round. Going all the way down into the FCD to use the thimble controlled tapered insert can crush the bullet (and will affect case tension again when you pull it back out of the FCD while removing any bulges you have created with your crimp activity) -- both actions will loosen the case's grip on the installed powder coated bullet.

============================

Isn't powder coat based on a fine power that gets heat fused (melted then cured) in an oven? There are some coating methods that use paint like products, but these are not commonly used for coating cast lead bullets.

I get confused when reading your responses and I have to question again if you are just regurgitating some old knowledge that comes from your old knowledge from the jacketed bullet world. Only jacketed bullets can cram their way into sized cases without at least some insertion bell mouth.

These rounds were slightly bell mouthed then corrected by "first bump insertion" into the LEE factory crimp die for the 40S&W as per the News for Newbies method that you do not care for.


317803 Right click on the image, save as ......, then open the new image then expand it using your favorite software so you can see the corrected bell mouth area clearly. This is not crimped it is the case mouth being straightened and the rest of the bullet body size and the case to bullet grip is not being affected as it never goes into the die.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OF: I guess my explanations are just too complicated for some reading this thread? Reading Comprehension seems to be weak on this thread, which has never been a problem before. I've gotten way too many questions about things that were explained concisely in a previous post just because people didn't understand what was said, and if they'd only read it again they'd figure it out for themselves instead of asking more questions that were already answered.

Yes, I apply a " Flare" to the Case Mouth then the Taper or Roll Crimp removes it and turns it into the bullet locking it in place thus preventing bullet/boolit set back.

Powder Coating is Paint. It is just a different kind of paint, and is usually applied at Industrial Coating Shops that apply Wet Paint and Dry Paint. The powder is a Polymer based (plastic) Substance that adheres to the surface by "Negatively" charging the powder, and Positively charging the work. Then it is heated to melt the powder onto the surface of the work. Did you know that those shops also cook "Wet Paint" to make it dry faster? That is Called "Force Curing."

As far as "Regurgitating?" I can't help it if you can't or won't understand what I say. This isn't a problem for the majority of people who read my Posts, and I post a lot here! Note my Post Count?

Many people just skim over text and think they understand what has been discussed, and then look up and wonder what they just read? I'm reasonably sure that is what if going on here?.

If you don't understand what I wrote, try reading it again. Maybe you'll get it the second or third time thru. That's what I do, maybe it will work for others as well?

I do use many Technical Terms simply because when you are discussing Technical Subjects, you kind of need to use the terms that accurately describe what you are talking about.

Reloading Ammunition is a "Technical Pursuit," and there are "Glossaries" in every "Reloading Manual" that have the definitions of every Technical Term in the Manual. You can't fully Understand what's in the Manual if you don't understand the terms in the Manual. Simple as that, and from the questions I've gotten in this thread I can see that is the case.

I have many Magazine Articles I have read literally 10,20 as many as 50 times before I got everything that was communicated in the article. Sometimes I re-read an article just for fun while sitting on the toilet.

If I don't understand something I just read, I go back and Re-Read it until I do. Everyone should try this cuz it really works.

Randy

[Oldfeller]

Randy, I don't lack comprehension, you are leaving out steps in your explanations.

You also like to apply non-standard terms in order to bridge over your skipping of key steps and your lack of explanation after the fact. Flare for example is a plumbing term as it is commonly applied to copper tubing. Flare is a massive tubing mouth expansion to mate up to threaded force compression tapered fittings, Flare is relatively huge -- around 10-20% of diameter. Not thousandths of an inch as we are talking about.

Your bombastic style does not educate a newbie, it trashes them. Especially if they trust your attempts at after the fact "explanations" as being accurate or factual.

Folks, you listen to whom you wish to listen to. But at least try to have somebody who does not omit key steps, grabs illustrations from other venues (yes, the jacketed bullet pics and the "flare") and does not try to brow beat you into accepting his errors as "technically accurate" post mortum because he can't stand to be wrong.

A mature male can admit to being wrong occasionally.

Now, where am I being wrong? Mainly by continuing this discussion with Randy as this is wasting my time and effort.

I have finished my baggies of 40 S&W bullets and put my dies away and put my press all away now.


Bye y'all. Take care.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sir: Good for you, You beat me to it as I was done with this thread as well. But in closing I'd like to answer your question of "Where are YOU going wrong? "

You are the classic example of someone who reads the First Sentence in a post and takes exception to "What He Thinks it said" and then goes off on a tangent explaining what I'm doing wrong using different terms that mean the exact same thing.

I have nearly 9,000 more posts on this site than you do, and If I was so full of it, I would have been banned long ago. I was writing about this very subject over at Trapshooters.com when Don Verna told me about this place in 2008, so I came here and my first post here was talking about blowing up Glocks chambered for .40 S&W with Bad Federal Cases. (See Pics I posted in 2008.)

Please Read and Re-Read this last post as many times as is necessary for you to understand what I am saying.

Thanks Randy

[1006]

You don't need to measure squat ... put a moderate Taper Crimp on the boolit , with the seating-crimping die that came in the set .
Take the round out and press on the boolit with your thumb ...hard ... if it moves , add more crimp ... if it don't move , press the boolit nose against the edge of your bench ... firmly but not all Magilla Gorilla on it ... if it moves , add just a little more crimp ... if it holds firm , you got it .
So many times people post / books give dimensions but fail to take into cosideration boolit diameter .. that dimension is only good for that diameter boolit and cast boolits are larger than J-Words ... taking measurements is a waste of time ...testing the boolit with thumb and bench edge ...that will tell you the story ! I've loaded handgun ammo for 50+ years and never needed a FCD ...the die that comes in the box will work fine if you adjust it correctly ... Dummy Rounds can help you set adjustments (case with boolit , no powder - no primer ) once you get seating depth then crimps worked out semi-auto's can be seat/taper crimp in one step .

If you don't have one , a Kinetic Bullet puller can be used to pull those bullets that slide back into the case ... a couple light taps brings them forward and you can add more crimp (turn the crimp die down) and try again .
Gary

If you use this technique combined with a chamber check gage as a common sense double check of your work, you will get good results.

I found Randy’s attempts to help Deerslayer and the rest of the thread participants illustrated a great desire to help, and everything he said looked correct to me. Although, I am not a fan of the FCD and it’s carbide ring-plenty of other guys like it. I have loaded 40’s for a very long time-before Gen 3 Glocks had light rails.

You do need a crimp to prevent setback in a Semi-AUTO Gun. There is no groove because it is a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. The mouth of the case should “slightly” bite into the bullet to secure it in place. Powder Coated bullets are a relatively new thing, and they bring some issues, mainly: not being able to take a good taper crimp without becoming inaccurate. Personally, I overcrimp 40’s for safety’s sake.

[1006]

This seems like a decent read on setback.

https://www.recoilweb.com/bullet-setback-fears-160844.html

[45_Colt]

And a thread on setback by shooters & reloaders:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/174759-9mm-bullet-setback/

45_Colt

[dearslayer]

Well folks I guess I needed to put more crimp on these lead boolits. I went to the range yesterday and fired about 50 to 60 rounds. The last magazine that I fired I measured the first round in, which would have been in the bottom of the mag. It measured 1. 1315. I fired nine rounds doing a MAG dump and then I measured the last round to see if there was any setback. Low and behold there was. My measurement now was 1.1111. I came home and adjusted the remaining rounds that I had loaded which was around 30. The crimp now measures .4175 instead of around .425 as previously measured. Will see how this crimp holds up at the next range visit. I'm learning a lot from all the input folks. Thanks to all.

[dondiego]

Well folks I guess I need it to put more crimp on these lead boolits. I went to the rain yesterday and fired about 50 to 60 rounds. The last magazine that I fired I measured the first round in which would have been in the bottom of the mag. It measured 1. 1135. I fired nine rounds doing a MAG dump and then I measured the last round to see if there was any setback. low and behold there was. My measurement now was 1.1111. I came home and adjusted the remaining rounds that I had loaded which was around 30. The crimp now measures .4175 instead of around .425 as previously measured. Will see how this crimp holds up at the next range visit. I'm learning a lot from all the input folks. Thanks to all.

Be sure to compare your accuracy between the two as well.

[justindad]

Thanks for the progress update. If you still have setback after increasing the crimp, then try a harder alloy (eg 92-6-2 hardball). With the harder alloy, you can use a smaller case expander plug without your brass swaging the boolit down.

[dearslayer]

Thanks for the progress update. If you still have setback after increasing the crimp, then try a harder alloy (eg 92-6-2 hardball). With the harder alloy, you can use a smaller case expander plug without your brass swaging the boolit down.
Is there an optimal hardness for lead boolits for handguns or does it depend on the pistol and caliber itself. I'll do a search on mixing lead for hardness but in the meantime for anyone have a link to provide for quick reference? I normally use 50%COWW and 50% SOWW with a couple ounces of pewter mixed in. I don't remember where I read this combination or if it's proper. Maybe it's contributing to some of my issues??

[justindad]

The minimum hardness needed to prevent setback will depend on the caliber, age of brass, lube type, etc. Even the length of the bullet that is seated in the brass matters. (The interference for between lead & brass creates a pressure between the brass and lead. The force required to move the bullet is pressure x area x coefficient of friction. The area is the circumference of the driving band times the length of the driving band that is encased in brass). Even the nose geometry will matter, as that affects how hard the bullet hits the feed ramp - a round nose will have a glancing blow and a WFN has more of a direct impact.
*
I had bullet setback in a .45ACP with copper plated bullets, which use soft lead. I experimented with a range of crimps from very light to cutting the plating and the all set back on me. Same brass and same process with my own cast lead boolits has not given setback. The softest lead I used was 50:50 COWW:SOWW, which gave a slight amount of leading so now I’m only using COWW + 1%Sn. Your .40 is different from my .45, so I don’t know how soft you can go. You might be fine with what you have now. You just gotta tinker & test some more.
*
On the other hand - I’ve never read of anybody else having this issue. Maybe it’s just me :)

[Dusty Bannister]

I see so many people having trouble with things like this. I started with revolver rounds and 30-06 back in the mid 70's. First pistol case was .380 and never had these issues with home cast. Then the 45 ACP, still no troubles other than simple die adjustment. Then the 40 S&W and the 9MM Makarov and 9MM Luger. Still no problems. But, I go 1 or 2 Thou over groove diameter, conventional bullet lube, and conventional lube groove bullets. Many of those having trouble seem to use the TL styles, the NLG styles and powder coated bullets. Not saying that this is the issue, but I do not plan to ever PC or play with the NLG style bullets. If it works for others, I am happy for you. Enjoy and have fun.

[David2011]

After reading the entire thread twice:
Randy Buchanan didn't write anything that I questioned in the least. I also started loading the .40 S&W in 2007 but I've loaded about 100,000 rounds; all but a few of which have been shot in USPSA competition in an STI Edge with the STI match barrel. I measure my crimp occasionally to verify that the die adjustment is still good. My press for .40 is a Dillon 650 that has a dedicated toolhead for each caliber. I spot check practice ammunition with a Dillon case gage and check every match round. The case gage has a smaller chamber than the match barrel so function is all but guaranteed if cases pass the case gage. I don't recall ever having a failure to feed or extract except when an extractor broke after about 50,000 rounds.


A while back I enquired on here regarding the 40sw and Win231 powder and an issue I was having with the FCD,and I haven't really reloaded any since that time. Not enough time to do everything that needs doing in life I guess. So I have managed to step into it again and I went back to that older thread and someone had mentioned that it's important that the crimp measure .0416-0.418. Given the issue I was having with the FCD I decided to crimp using the seating die and it seemed to be going ok until I revisited that thread and checked the current crimp. The boolits are not moving this time round and I thought the crimp looked ok but when I measured, the crimp was 0.425. The plunk test in my barrel works fine and drops freely in and out. What am I missing. Should I try to squeeze the crimp to 0.416-0.418?? Perhaps I had best check the calibration on my caliber today to be sure it's correct. Can't do it now cuz I'm at work.

That .416-.418 measurement doesn't show up in any cartridge specs I can find for the .40 S&W. SAAMI's standard is .423" or 10.74mm. As long as you're passing a case gage you should be good. It's a better test than a barrel.


Refer to the first image below. The gage diameter at location #1 is where the crimp is applied. Mine measures 0.420” - some folks do a few thou more and some a few thou less. The crimp length for this pictured round is 0.035” long. It depends on your particular crimp die, but a crimp length anywhere in the range of 0.015 - 0.050” would not surprise me.

When I mentioned that you pivot the cartridge in the jaws of the calipers, the pivot point is where the crimp length ends (0.035” away from the case mouth for this exact round). The arrows at gage diameter #1 are directly on the case mouth. Notice that you can see light between the very edge of the case mouth and the calipers - that gap is only a few thou wide. The pivot axis could also be located at gage diameter #3, depending on meaningless imperfections, or intentional brass taper, etc. more often than not, my rounds pivot at the end of the crimp length.

Gage diameter #2 shows where the brass has sunk into the lube groove. Whether or not this is visible depends on your brass and the lube groove width. This is not meaningful if the case is not swaging down the boolit.

Gage diameter 3 is at the bottom driving band of the boolit. This could be the pivot axis instead of at the very end/bottom of the crimp length. Either location is fine, so long as the case mouth is not on the pivot axis.

Some folks might prefer that the round pivots on the case mouth. I don’t. Consider what you’ve read, test for proper feeding & chambering in your gun, and decide for yourself.

317721

In this next image you can see how the case mouth is measured. I try to gasp the round so that only half the thickness of the caliper jaws is touching the case. If your calipers are tilted at all, the measurement will be off - that is why this measurement is tricky to get right. Also keep in mind that the crimp length is tapered, making it nearly impossible to truly contact the case mouth.

317722

IMO measuring perpendicular to the axis of the cartridge and just a hair's breadth aft of the mouth is the only way to measure the mouth. Measuring directly on the mouth can lead to measuring a burr instead of the true diameter. ALL semiauto case mouths should be left square and never rounded off with a roll crimp die. They all headspace on the case mouth and as has been said already, bad things can happen if the case mouth goes past the end of the chamber.


I have the stem from the Lee 40sw sizing kit and I tried using it this morning to push a case all the way through the crimp die. Damn I thought I would snap the lever on the little Lee press that I use for decapping and sizing. The case went in most of the way easily but then stopped. It took a lot of force till it finally thumped through with a BANG. I don't think I'd want to doing ANY cases like that. Is this normal????

At first I tried pushing some cases through a Dillon sizing die. It thumped pretty hard as the web passed through the carbide ring. I have a Magma Case Master Jr. now and the die is honed to the correct diameter to size the Glock bulge. It's much smoother.


Do you need case lube when you push a case through the Lee Carbide FCD?

It sure helps. I use a little spray lube with my Magma Case Master Jr. and it reduces the effort required greatly.

[dearslayer]

Take a look at this crimp and tell me if it looks ok. I'm using a brand new Taper Crimp Die from Lee. I just wonder should it be smoother? I am noticing some small amount of brass shavings/ dust, in my boolit collection bin. Not a lot but enough. As I understood it there should be absolutely no shavings ( or so I was told ) Is this normal? Oh BTW I measure around 0.418- 0.419 on the taper. I'll try these later this evening when I go to the range. 318080318081318082

Sent from my LYA-L0C using Tapatalk

[justindad]

If it only happens the first time you reload this brass, then I wouldn’t worry about it. If it happens the second time you reload that same brass, I would change your crimp die out for a Redding die. Redding dies aren’t all excellent, but their Profile Crimp die is my favorite crimper.

[dearslayer]

If it only happens the first time you reload this brass, then I wouldn’t worry about it. If it happens the second time you reload that same brass, I would change your crimp die out for a Redding die. Redding dies aren’t all excellent, but their Profile Crimp die is my favorite crimper.
I know the machining marks on the inside of the die are pretty pronounced. I tried polishing the inside a little bit last night with the Dremel and and a rubber tip but it didn't work as well as I would have liked it to. I ordered some new felt tips from Amazon and they should be here today. Hopefully I'll be able to polish the inside enough that it will make a difference. If it doesn't I'll definitely keep your suggestion in mind.

[gloob]

I've seen setback on my uncrimped cast 223, when the flat-nose boolit hangs up on the feedramp. But there's very little area of contact to hold a 223 bullet in the neck. I still don't crimp my cast 223, which I only shoot in a bolt gun. I just examine ammo after a feed jam and toss if there's damage.

I do crimp my 223 jacketed ammo into the crimp groove on the bullet.

I don't crimp any of my semiauto pistol ammo, to date, unless it's needed to get the cartridge to drop feely into the chamber. 40SW, in particular, has a huge area of brass to bullet contact... so much that I found it is impossible to pull a 40SW cast bullet seated in new, squeaky clean brass, using any kind of bullet puller. So I don't really worry about setback in semiauto handguns.

If my pistol ammo is jamming on the feedramp, I'm going to change boolit, anyhow.

[BJung]

I once loved the Lee FCD. It fixed all my reloads that didn't chamber. Then, I stopped using the FCD after a commercial bullet caster named Dardas explained to me that the FCD was swaging the bullets with those cases that didn't chamber. Then, I did a test using PC 38-148 WC sized at 0.357" with 2.8gr BE with the only variable being the case. Seating depth at the crimp groove. All cases were 2nd firing range brass and the case lengths were the same. My best groups used Remington brass with thin walls. Winchester not as good, I use Federal, Speer, brass vs nickel.. The worse was PMC. The walls were thick, didn't chamber, and I had to use the FCD. I even shot a mix of brass and the group size was a combination of the other groups using different headstamps. My conclusion is to find what brass shoots best with your load because the wall thickness effects neck tension and a more consistent accuracy. Stay with one headstamp. Either test them all or measure the ID to your bullet OD and the measurement should be .002"-.003" difference as mentioned in an earlier post. Anything less and your bullet will fall through. As for crimp, I'd I remove my case flare with my crimp die. If I crimp, I start at the non-flare position and make test loads of various crimps created by turning my crimp die down by 1/4, 1/2.. turns and then compare my groups.