25 acp versus 380 compact

[rintinglen]

In another thread, a fellow was extolling the virtues of a small 25 as a defensive weapon, casually condemning the pocket 380's as too hard to shoot well. I decided to test this. I have a Baby Browning and my "Purple People eater" 380 LCP is the Smallest gun I routinely carry, so I elected to use them as representatives of their respective tribes. The scenario I set up was designed to represent a worse case of an event that happened to me a couple weeks ago at a gas station when a disreputable pan handler approached me in a some what threatening manner. Starting with my gun in a pocket holster and my hand on the gun in the pocket , at 5 yards, I drew and fired as many shots as I could in 3 seconds at the head of the simulated attacker. At 5 yards, an attacker can be on you in a second, but realistically, we cannot draw down on every one who approaches us, so I designed the test with this in mind. Let's look at the target and review how I did.

317315

The white spacers are the 380's, the black are the 25's. Also, one of the 25's does not count--it was just past the beep. Note that 3 of the 4 380's went low, but still would have been wounding shots, the 2 in the neck would have been particularly so. The 4 shots of the 25 resulted in 3 outright misses owing to the small size of the gun--I could only get one finger on it and I had some difficulty getting it out and snapping off the safety. The non-existent sights made it all but impossible to aim the gun, while the dinky, one-finger grip resulted in my pulling the trigger tending to jerk the shots left.

Given the marginal efficacy of the 25, I doubt I could keep an attacker from reaching me were that all I had to prevent it. In the only 2 shootings I know of using a 25, one involved an unarmed subject who remained ambulatory after being shot multiple times and the other involved a suspected drug thief who was executed for her presumed crimes with 2 shots to the back of the head. (and then soaked in gasoline and set afire.) edit. I have since recalled a third incident wherein a gangbanger caught a round in the forehead that failed to penetrate into the brain.. I did not witness this personally but was told of it by an ER nurse of my acquaintance.

Now, to be fair, I have a Beretta 21 in 25 that I can shoot better, but it is larger and weighs more than the LCP! Quite simply, the 25 is a weak reed to lean on. Unless that is all you have, choose something better.

[FergusonTO35]

Everybody should use what works for them. My experience would be the opposite of yours, even at close range I would be far more likely to miss with the LCP than just about any .22, .25, or .32. I think the main cause of the .25 lack of penetration is that most factory ammo is watered down even further than its modest listed velocity. I've read that many factory loads are under 600 fps in the average pistol.

[Soundguy]

I have a pheonix 25acp and a keltec p32 and a keltec p3at. All small guns.. oddly enough.. I shoot them all about the same... good enough for self defense range hitting a target... all I can say..

[rintinglen]

People with really large hands don't do well with tiny guns. My 6' 2", 250 Lb. baby brother has a problem with the LCP as well, the standard is just too small for his XXL hands to get a good grip. But I will lay dollars to donuts that if an LCP is too small, the Baby Browning or one of its copies won't fit either. He shoots a Keltec P32 but never carries it, because it is too small. He normally carries a 638 with the large Hogue grips, because it is the smallest gun he can shoot well.
CCW, especially in hot weather, is always a compromise between concealability, utility and power. In my view, the various 25 ACP pistols do well at hiding, but are hard to shoot and lack power. There are too many other choices that are only slightly bigger but are easier to shoot and utilize more powerful ammunition. Carry one if it is all you have, or if it is all you can conceal, but don't be mislead into thinking that you are well armed.

[Soundguy]

In Florida with triple digit temperatures depending on your body type some of us are stuck carrying small guns like 32s and 25s I know on my Kel-Tec 32 I have an extended magazine and can carry it in a belly band and it's actually more grip than slide so it's actually pretty easy to control and on the 25 I bought fingertip extension floor plates for the magazine and it works out pretty good too it all comes down to shop placement at that point because as you mentioned neither 32 nor 25 are power monsters so the shooter has to do their part to make it all work.

[lar45]

Some years back(30 ish), my Mother decided that she was going on an extended road trip to visit all of her children scattered across the country.
So I took her to the range with a pile of handguns to try. I had a 22, 25, 380 and 9mm in appropriate sizes. I didn't have a small compact 38, or we would have tried that one also. We setup targets at about 7yds and had her try all the guns, then had her draw and fire also. She ended up shooting a Russian Makarov in 380 the best and liked it, so that's what she took with her on the trip. Once she settled on the Mak, we spent the rest of the afternoon getting her totally comfortable and familiar with it, load, unload, mag change... Mom grew up around guns and has hunted all her life, so I felt comfortable with the one afternoon training session. Obviously more training and familiarity is always better, but it's what we had. She liked the gun so well that I didn't get it back for about 18 years lol.

[Outpost75]

I have meaty hands and got slide bite requiring stitches firing my .32 ACP "Buffalo" loads for testing in the Beretta Tomcat, before the frame cracked. The original Ruger LCP was more manageable, especially after adding a Hogue grip sleeve. I hit well with it to 10-15 yards. I do not care for the later LCPs with the Glock style thingy on the trigger. I am an old wheelgun guy and prefer the DAO trigger pull of the original model.

[Frank V]

A tiny gun doesn’t have to be chosen. I just don’t wear shorts, I wear Wrangler jeans & a J frame will fit nicely in the front pocket in a thin pocket holster. Granted, we don’t have many 100deg days, but here 93 is screaming hot & it gets there now & then. Dress for the gun, not visa versa?
Or wear your shorts & an untucked short sleeved shirt. Even a small 9mm will ride easily AIWB in a proper holster, Or 3oclock IWB in a proper holster. Choose a shirt one size larger & bingo, we can carry a reasonably sized gun without being spotted.
Something to think about anyway��

[FergusonTO35]

I have XL hands and shoot my two Kel-Tec P32's quite well. I don't think the size of the LCP is the problem since it's actually a bit bigger than the P32. Neither is recoil or muzzle jump, I find it to be about the same. All I can think of is something about the trigger pull just doesn't work for me. I've owned two of them and got the same results. I shoot my LCP II .22 lights out, it has a creepy single action pull with a manual safety. If Ruger had put a manual safety on the .380 version I would have bought one.

[Captain O]

I have XL hands and shoot my two Kel-Tec P32's quite well. I don't think the size of the LCP is the problem since it's actually a bit bigger than the P32. Neither is recoil or muzzle jump, I find it to be about the same. All I can think of is something about the trigger pull just doesn't work for me. I've owned two of them and got the same results. I shoot my LCP II .22 lights out, it has a creepy single action pull with a manual safety. If Ruger had put a manual safety on the .380 version I would have bought one.

I am firmly convinced that during an armed confrontation, blasting an attacker in the face will likely change their minds. If you terminate their career, so much the better. (They really weren't serving the world well as they lived). A face-full .25, .32, or .380 will generally dissuade said miscreant from continuing such violent behavior.

[atr]

If you terminate their career, so much the better.
amen!

I like the .380 over the .25....more shock power.
best
atr

[Outpost75]

I am firmly convinced that during an armed confrontation, blasting an attacker in the face will likely change their minds. If you terminate their career, so much the better. (They really weren't serving the world well as they lived). A face-full .25, .32, or .380 will generally dissuade said miscreant from continuing such violent behavior.

Depends upon shot placement. Hits below the eye sockets are nonlethal. Eyes and fore-head are better aiming points, but .25 will glance off skull in oblique impact.

[elmacgyver0]

I doubt if I would like to get hit by either one.

[Soundguy]

A tiny gun doesn’t have to be chosen. I just don’t wear shorts, I wear Wrangler jeans & a J frame will fit nicely in the front pocket in a thin pocket holster. Granted, we don’t have many 100deg days, but here 93 is screaming hot & it gets there now & then. Dress for the gun, not visa versa?
Or wear your shorts & an untucked short sleeved shirt. Even a small 9mm will ride easily AIWB in a proper holster, Or 3oclock IWB in a proper holster. Choose a shirt one size larger & bingo, we can carry a reasonably sized gun without being spotted.
Something to think about anyway��

It's hard to see you living in Montana telling others to dress for the gun..when we live in triple digit temps MOST of the year.. Not like 2-3 months..but like 8+ months. Yes..small revolvers are sometimes possible..but the heat is a killer here... Wet shirts standing outside 15m. That all factors in.

[Soundguy]

Some years back(30 ish), my Mother decided that she was going on an extended road trip to visit all of her children scattered across the country.
So I took her to the range with a pile of handguns to try. I had a 22, 25, 380 and 9mm in appropriate sizes. I didn't have a small compact 38, or we would have tried that one also. We setup targets at about 7yds and had her try all the guns, then had her draw and fire also. She ended up shooting a Russian Makarov in 380 the best and liked it, so that's what she took with her on the trip. Once she settled on the Mak, we spent the rest of the afternoon getting her totally comfortable and familiar with it, load, unload, mag change... Mom grew up around guns and has hunted all her life, so I felt comfortable with the one afternoon training session. Obviously more training and familiarity is always better, but it's what we had. She liked the gun so well that I didn't get it back for about 18 years lol.

Was the mak a 90's redesigned Biakal model or an older model swapped barrel and possibly mag home conversion job?

[georgerkahn]

I have meaty hands and got slide bite requiring stitches firing my .32 ACP "Buffalo" loads for testing in the Beretta Tomcat, before the frame cracked. The original Ruger LCP was more manageable, especially after adding a Hogue grip sleeve. I hit well with it to 10-15 yards. I do not care for the later LCPs with the Glock style thingy on the trigger. I am an old wheelgun guy and prefer the DAO trigger pull of the original model.

I, too, had a Beretta .32 Tomcat, and my first time at range with it, it took the skin off the top of my right thumb! Interestingly, I also have the .22 and .25acp models -- never a problem from/with either. In the .32acp I was shooting factory ammo -- the one box I bought both to function check the pistol and get me a supply of brass for reloading my cast bullets... I have one of those in-pocket holsters, and still rely on the .25acp. My thoughts are vis critters while fishing/hunting/in woods. A lot of thought, I believe, is re TWO-legged critters. My 99.99% carry is re those with four legs. (IF I lived in venomous-snake area -- critters with no legs :) would be included.)
geo

[rintinglen]

The point of this test was to determine whether I could shoot the diminutive 25 well enough to hit the head with my 25 in a hurry. I can't count on doing it in broad daylight. In a low light condition, I am sure I can't. I would use a larger 22 were I compelled to use a tiny cartridge, but if you can hide a 25, you can hide a slightly bigger gun that is easier to shoot, in a more capable cartridge . Even in Texas, with 90+ days of high humidity, triple digit weather. I was able to carry the LCP concealed. A Kahr CW380, an LCP, a Keltec P32 or P 3AT; all are pretty small. If that's too big, save up and get a Seecamp--they're even smaller.

But don't kid yourself that a tiny gun in a tiny caliber is a good thing. It's a "better than nothing" thing.

[Bigslug]

If you're looking for analysis of your methods, you've chosen two pistol mechanisms that are apples and oranges, regardless of caliber.

In my world where most of the primary full-sized handguns are striker fired or single action, I see a lot of tendency to slap triggers when sights approach correct alignment on the target. You can get away with that to a point at short range, but the technique does not translate well to the DAO system of the LCP or hammerless revolvers, which take a different kind of effort. The more apt comparison would be to run your FN .25 against an FN 1910, Colt 1903 / 1908, Glock 42, or even a DA-to-SA Walther. At that point, the more manageable grip and longer sight radius is likely to call the victory.

[EMC45]

I'd prefer the .380 neck/spine hits over the one .25 head hit.

You multiple factors to consider - one is errant rounds that miss the target.

[JoeJames]

Depends upon shot placement. Hits below the eye sockets are nonlethal. Eyes and fore-head are better aiming points, but .25 will glance off skull in oblique impact.Several years ago; attempted armed robbery at a quickmart near me. Female clerk shot the dude in the face with a 25 - hit a front upper tooth and plumb busted it. He ran off. Showed up at a local hospital.

[Captain O]

Had she shot him at the base of his throat, the goblin would likely have drowned in his own blood. (And the world would have been be a better place for it).

[lar45]

Was the mak a 90's redesigned Biakal model or an older model swapped barrel and possibly mag home conversion job?

The Mak was a factory new 90s Baikal model in 380.

[rintinglen]

If you're looking for analysis of your methods, you've chosen two pistol mechanisms that are apples and oranges, regardless of caliber.

In my world where most of the primary full-sized handguns are striker fired or single action, I see a lot of tendency to slap triggers when sights approach correct alignment on the target. You can get away with that to a point at short range, but the technique does not translate well to the DAO system of the LCP or hammerless revolvers, which take a different kind of effort. The more apt comparison would be to run your FN .25 against an FN 1910, Colt 1903 / 1908, Glock 42, or even a DA-to-SA Walther. At that point, the more manageable grip and longer sight radius is likely to call the victory.

Stuff and nonsense. I was not comparing operating systems, I was comparing my ability to operate a tiny pistol quickly, in two different calibers, using the smallest examples of each that I have. But even if I was, a Glock safe action or a Walther PPK is not comparable to a single action striker fired pistol. The point I was hoping to make, was that the smaller pistol has worse sights, is harder to manipulate, and more difficult to shoot well. All this coupled with the inferior ballistics of the smaller cartridge militates against one being able to direct a cloud of minescule projectiles into a 3 inch circle at other than bad breath range, and penetrate sufficiently deeply to effect a disabling wound.

[Soundguy]

The Mak was a factory new 90s Baikal model in 380.

Nice... Best of the 2 choices imho.

[fecmech]

Being an old PPC guy myself the P3AT works just fine for me. I would not consider a.25.

[lar45]

Nice... Best of the 2 choices imho.

My other Mak is an East German in 9x18mm .
I like the German Mak much much better than the Russian one, I just wish ammo was more available.

[Captain O]

Burying a Buffalo Bore 50-grain .25 at the base of a goblin's throat should generally stop a threat. (Rupturing a larynx will almost certainly end a confrontation and deliver a miscreant to the nearest human refrigeration unit).

[rintinglen]

An ice pick to the eye socket will effect the same result. The problem is delivering the projectile to the desired point.

[Captain O]

An ice pick to the eye socket will effect the same result. The problem is delivering the projectile to the desired point.

I can launch a flurry of .25" 6-7 "icepicks" at a range of 24 inches within 3-4 seconds. Believe me, I did my homework before I plunked down $400.00 for an unfired example of a pistol that is more than 39 years old.

My Bauer is absolutely perfect! (Trust me, this pistol is immaculate).

[poppy42]

My other Mak is an East German in 9x18mm .
I like the German Mak much much better than the Russian one, I just wish ammo was more available.
I shoot and carry a Makarov and /or a Polish P64 in 9x18. I haven’t bought factory ammunition in about six years! I make my own brass from 9 x 19 and I Cast Boolets. Both guns are extremely dependable and extremely accurate the accuracy in part due to the fixed barrel.

[charlie b]

I've also had a P64 for a couple decades now. It is a good carry size for me.

FIL had a baby Walther. My hands are long. But, that is at best a one finger grip. With my longer hands I could not grab the gun well with the one finger and still get the trigger finger near the right place. 5 shots later, two BIG red grooves in the back of my hand and I gave up.

A PPK size gun (or snubbie) is the smallest I will carry. They are small enough to fit in a pocket if so desired, light enough not to drag down pants, and big enough to get a good grip even when distressed. And that doesn't even take into account the better performance of a .380 over the smaller .25acp round. FWIW, read up on Fackler's testing of the .25acp on close head shots.

One thing to note is the OP also started out with the hand on the grip in his pocket. If he started with hands outside the pocket the results probably would have been much worse time wise.

Clothing? Grew up in Phoenix. Been in southern NM a long time. I wear long sleeve shirts, long pants and wide brim hats.

[FergusonTO35]

Several years ago; attempted armed robbery at a quickmart near me. Female clerk shot the dude in the face with a 25 - hit a front upper tooth and plumb busted it. He ran off. Showed up at a local hospital.

If the tooth is all the damage he received then I guarantee that was an ammo failure. No way a 50 grain FMJ at nominal 750 fps wouldn't continue to do damage to all that soft tissue in the oral cavity/pharynx area.

[Captain O]

If the tooth is all the damage he received then I guarantee that was an ammo failure. No way a 50 grain FMJ at nominal 750 fps wouldn't continue to do damage to all that soft tissue in the oral cavity/pharynx area.

Correct! This, indeed, was an ammo failure. Had it been running at optimum speed, it likely would have blown on through the back of his oral cavity and lodged in, or near, his spine. "Mr. Bunghole" would either be relegated to a respirator or die because his spinal cord would have been severed. (When you damage the brain stem, you're going to be in deep caca).

[rintinglen]

When you only have 65 ft. lbs. to work with, stuff like this happens. In the fall of 1990, a gang banger was brought into Rancho Dominguez Emergency with a 25 bullet in his forehead, it had failed to penetrate into his brain, though it had caused a mild concussion. In ballistic gel tests, the 25 routinely fails to hit the 12 inch minimum that the FBI prescribes.

[beemer]

There is no contest when considering the power level of the two rounds. My Beretta 950 is very small and reliable. If that happens to be important at the time carry it, I do. Maybe not the best but definitely better than being unarmed. When you get older you can't out run or fight a young man but you can be dangerous.

I usually carry inside the waist band appendix. For that reason I want a DAO only. I went through several smaller carry guns. I made full circle, started with a 38 snub and ended up with a 638. For several reasons I prefer a revolver. Not against a 380 auto, just never found the right one I guess.

[FergusonTO35]

When you only have 65 ft. lbs. to work with, stuff like this happens. In the fall of 1990, a gang banger was brought into Rancho Dominguez Emergency with a 25 bullet in his forehead, it had failed to penetrate into his brain, though it had caused a mild concussion. In ballistic gel tests, the 25 routinely fails to hit the 12 inch minimum that the FBI prescribes.

I completely agree with you, however I think that if the ammo had actually been up to advertised speed in either cited case then the miscreants would have been on ice. The performance, or lack thereof, is more on par with a small ball bearing from a slingshot not pulled back all the way.

[FergusonTO35]

There is no contest when considering the power level of the two rounds. My Beretta 950 is very small and reliable. If that happens to be important at the time carry it, I do. Maybe not the best but definitely better than being unarmed. When you get older you can't out run or fight a young man but you can be dangerous.

I usually carry inside the waist band appendix. For that reason I want a DAO only. I went through several smaller carry guns. I made full circle, started with a 38 snub and ended up with a 638. For several reasons I prefer a revolver. Not against a 380 auto, just never found the right one I guess.

I would never say that .22, .25, .32, or even .380 is ideal but have to carry what you can carry. There are plenty of examples of perps who were thoroughly ventilated with the latest and greatest 9mm, .357, .40, and .45 rounds and still continuing to fight. Yes, a bigger cartridge is better but it is still no guarantee of anything. And if you are a poor shooter with that caliber then it is almost certainly going to be less effective than a smaller one that you can shoot well.

[rintinglen]

There was a study done by U.S. Medical personnel to determine the wounding capabilities of various weapon systems. I have read that they had determined the minimum force to effect a severe disabling wound to be ~50 ft/lbs. (IIRC, this was in relation to fragmentation weapons, ie, grenades, mortar bombs, artillery shells, etc, but I can not definitively state that: my rememberer is a bit faulty these days.) I believe it is referenced in Textbook of Military Medicine, Conventional Warfare. But I do not know the title of the study I am referring to. However, a 25ACP barely exceeds that standard, so that the least degradation in performance due either to weapon or ammunition deficiency or flaw can result in a less than ideal out come. Given that there are several micro 32's and 380's now available that exceed the energy of the 25 by 2 or 3 times while remaining very small, it takes a very specific set of circumstances to compel one to select a 25 as a PDW.

Now in fairness, for nearly 7 years I carried a Jennings J-22 in a hand cuff case, but that was strictly as a backup to a backup in the case where I had been despoiled of my primary service revolver and my back up had run dry or also been taken from me. However, there were no Seecamps, Keltecs, LCP's, Tomcats, CW380's or any others of that ilk available then. While I have a few 25's, I do not carry them for any purpose.

[FergusonTO35]

The only .25 I have is a pre-68 "Wischo" made in West Germany that belonged to my grandfather. Have the original box of shells for it with $2.99 price tag. I've never fired it and don't plan to, just a keepsake. He kept it in his pocket while working on the farm. He wasn't a "gun guy" by any means, probably just selected the cheapest pocket gun that was in the case.

[BD]

I'm with FrankV, a J frame in my right front pocket, shorts, (chosen well) or jeans.

[jimb16]

I have both a .25 and .380. The Colt .25 is a backup for the Colt .380.....I have a lot more confidence in the .380. I can keep them all on target at 7 yards rapid fire. The .25 will only do that at 3 yards! Too hard to manage and its only good for close range point and shoot.

[Bill*B]

We tend to overthink this. What matters is what you've got, when the chips are down. A blackjack? A "Minx" .22 short? Nothing but your own two fists? Situational awareness may trump them all. Stay alert.

[rintinglen]

Situation awareness only alerts one to an impending threat or hazard: prior preparation allows one to respond to the threat appropriately.