Alaskan SRH

[wilecoyote]

if the topic has already been covered, the link in CB or from any reputable source would suffice.
In any case I would like to know something more specific about the malfunction/causes/ammo/etc.reported in wikipedia: the related links do not specify more clearly what I would like to understand better _ thank you all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Super_Redhawk

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/article/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-charging-grizzly/2009/08/14/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/survival/animal-attacks/2009/08/charging-grizzly-killed-alaska

...my question concerns ballistic (or mechanical, in this case) forensics, not the welcome, lucky self-defense from wildlife, but I imagine that at least the person directly involved then investigated the problem...

[shooting on a shoestring]

I think you’re asking “how did the revolver/ammunition jam the revolver?”

Answer is boolit creep.

The recoil is severe and acts like an inertia bullet puller. At each shot the recoiling revolver pulls the unfired brass cases rearward (by the cylinder pulling the rim rearward). The boolits are pulled rearward too but only by the friction of the case necks and crimp. At each shot the brass is pulled (jerked) away from the remaining unfired boolits by a fraction of an inch. After experiencing several shots and the repeated boolit pulling effect of the recoil, the boolit nose can stick out of the front of the cylinder. This will prevent the cylinder from being rotated because the boolit nose will hit the outside edge of the barrel stub.

This is not uncommon in heavy recoiling revolvers. I’ve even seen it in heavy loaded S&W J-framer revolvers. Most of the time the boolit creep is small enough to go un-noticed.

It’s the worst when heavy for caliber boolits loaded with maximum powder charges. Heavy boolits are long and the boolit noses are very close to sticking out of the cylinder when freshly loaded. If they creep any at all they can get a boolit nose sticking out of the cylinder after 4-5 shots and prevent the last shot from being rotated into firing position.

[huntinlever]

I think you’re asking “how did the revolver/ammunition jam the revolver?”

Answer is boolit creep.

The recoil is severe and acts like an inertia bullet puller. At each shot the recoiling revolver pulls the unfired brass cases rearward (by the cylinder pulling the rim rearward). The boolits are pulled rearward too but only by the friction of the case necks and crimp. At each shot the brass is pulled (jerked) away from the remaining unfired boolits by a fraction of an inch. After experiencing several shots and the repeated boolit pulling effect of the recoil, the boolit nose can stick out of the front of the cylinder. This will prevent the cylinder from being rotated because the boolit nose will hit the outside edge of the barrel stub.

This is not uncommon in heavy recoiling revolvers. I’ve even seen it in heavy loaded S&W J-framer revolvers. Most of the time the boolit creep is small enough to go un-noticed.

It’s the worst when heavy for caliber boolits loaded with maximum powder charges. Heavy boolits are long and the boolit noses are very close to sticking out of the cylinder when freshly loaded. If they creep any at all they can get a boolit nose sticking out of the cylinder after 4-5 shots and prevent the last shot from being rotated into firing position.

What's the solution, then - heavy crimp?

[MUSTANG]

What's the solution, then - heavy crimp?

Theres a reason why throughout the last 150 years there has been a Crimp Groove on boolits and Bullets. Roll Crimp is the solution in most cases.

[rintinglen]

Test your ammo extensively before relying on it to protect life and limb and put in fresh ammo when going in harm's way. To test for bullet creep, measure a loaded round, Then load your revolver so that the measured round is the round under the hammer. Shoot the other four or five, then measure the test round again, if it has grown longer, you have a problem. Cast boolits are more prone to this problem than jacketed.

[TurnipEaterDown]

On revolver cartridges that recoil very heavily, especially from makers like Buffalo Bore, it is easy to see that the case is also sized in a manner that increases the grip on the bullet -- regardless of crimp.
The cases are drawn down to a smaller ID before seating the bullet than most "normal" revolver rounds, and then seating accomplished, finally the crimp. You can actually see on these rounds the case slightly indenting into the grease grooves of the cast bullet (loaded round). It is not an optical illusion. This very high radial tension helps retain the bullet. It's somewhat like several more crimps on a long, heavy, bullet.

Jacketed bullets do not usually have more than one crimp groove, and can prove troublesome in these revolvers -- particularly if you cycle rounds in and out of the gun while occasionally shooting one or two, as the remainder might have had several cycles of this 'inertia pulling', and eventually move.

My 475 Linebaugh taught me this first hand w/ some custom brass jacketed bullets at 0.474".
Seated into newly cut 45-70 cases, OK. Seated into fired & resized cases, they quickly creep.
Fix: partially size the case w/ 45-70 dies to draw it back down under 475 Linebaugh in diameter again.

Look at some of the old British big bore African double rifle rounds -- they have bayonet crimps on these: stab marks indenting the case into the bullet somewhere around mid bullet shank. This is an aggressive way to arrest bullet movement under recoil.

[wilecoyote]

I think you’re asking “how did the revolver/ammunition jam the revolver?” Answer is boolit creep...

...thanks for the detailed answer.This explanation fits perfectly with the few details indicated in the wikipedia link
In my imagination I have always thought that a .454 carried for x-treme self-defense should be loaded by a person particularly attentive to this possibility, if handloaded, or loaded with suitable factory ammo for the same reason.
Instead, I seem to understand that the possibility of a creeping bullet cannot necessarily be excluded even with factory ammo, in heavy hitting calibers: if so, it is a new fact for me that I had never taken into consideration...
thanks again !

[wilecoyote]

On revolver cartridges that recoil very heavily,...

...you've give in few words a lot of info about the reloading of large calibers, jacketed or lead, that had never crossed my mind.
partly due to my limited general knowledge, partly because I have never owned more than the .44 magnums.
you also involuntarily replied to what I considered a defect, ie the excessive resizing operated, especially by Redding, in .357 and .44 magnum sizers, when instead the thing can be explained if I follow your reasoning about .475.
thanks for the enlightening !

[wilecoyote]

Test your ammo extensively before relying on it to protect life and limb and put in fresh ammo when going in harm's way. To test for bullet creep, measure a loaded round, Then load your revolver so that the measured round is the round under the hammer. Shoot the other four or five, then measure the test round again, if it has grown longer, you have a problem. Cast boolits are more prone to this problem than jacketed.

...fine, down-to-the-heart preventive care.
even more precious , to me, because today I have only wheelguns.
sincerely thank you, sir !

[huntinlever]

Theres a reason why throughout the last 150 years there has been a Crimp Groove on boolits and Bullets. Roll Crimp is the solution in most cases.

Gotcha. You feel that way about rifle as well as stiff revolver ammo like this? I.e., I use the LFCD for the 45-70 and have always liked how well it seemed to seat while keeping a pretty smooth transition into the groove. Any reason the roll would be preferred over the LFCD for a rifle like this?

[DougGuy]

I think you fellas could get some ideas of how to customize the collet type FCD from this thread. For a serious defense gun in big game country where ANY boolit creep could prove to be disastrous, this is the crimp you want.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

[huntinlever]

I think you fellas could get some ideas of how to customize the collet type FCD from this thread. For a serious defense gun in big game country where ANY boolit creep could prove to be disastrous, this is the crimp you want.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

Excellent, thanks Doug.

[wilecoyote]

I think you fellas could get some ideas of how to customize the collet type FCD from this thread. For a serious defense gun in big game country where ANY boolit creep could prove to be disastrous, this is the crimp you want.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

thanks for your precious contribution.
I would say that we can reasonably apply the same modification procedure to the Lee Collet FC die, with similar aims and paying results also in .444Marlin or other straight case brass used in levers with substantial recoil.
now, may you confirm or criticize the application in case of tube-feed, heavy loaded lever actions ?

[LeonardC]

There were 2 problems in the OP's thread concerning RSRHs. The .454 jumping the crimp as noted above. The .480 Ruger case sticking was another issue that caused the .480R to be pulled off the market for several years. I think the problem was a slight swelling of the cylinder under firing and then contracting causing the case to stick. Ruger thought about putting the guns out as 5 shots but decided against it (some were rumored to have escaped the factory). I "think" they slightly changed the cylinder (material or treatment?) and then came on the market again as a 6 shot. The grey finish was gone and a brushed (?) stainless finish replaced it. Not to be fully anti 5 shot, Ruger did make some single actions in .480R and .454 5 shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

i fired thouands of rounds through my old 454 alaskan and just using a lee factory crimp die never had it tie up because of jumping crimp or any other reason. i have had it happen with my fa 475 though. but in those cases it was because there isnt to many cast bullets that work in you seat at the crimp grove. out of the ones that do work the are pretty much at the very end of the cylinder. same for my 454 fa gun but it didnt ever tie it up. probably since full power loads in the 454 dont have as much recoil as 475s. FA guns are probably the most precisely built handguns in the world but they dropped the ball with that to short of a cylinder. its why i sold both of mine and bought another linebaugh built gun.

[DougGuy]

thanks for your precious contribution.
I would say that we can reasonably apply the same modification procedure to the Lee Collet FC die, with similar aims and paying results also in .444Marlin or other straight case brass used in levers with substantial recoil.
now, may you confirm or criticize the application in case of tube-feed, heavy loaded lever actions ?

I don't know that there would be a great deal of difference in retaining the boolit against jumping crimp and moving, or against the forces of recoil in the tubular magazine trying to puth the boolit deepre into the case. I don't think it matters which way the boolit is pulling against the crimp band of the modified Lee collet style FCD or pushing against it. That crimp will hold.

[wilecoyote]

I don't know that there would be a great deal of difference in retaining the boolit against jumping crimp and moving, or against the forces of recoil in the tubular magazine trying to puth the boolit deepre into the case. I don't think it matters which way the boolit is pulling against the crimp band of the modified Lee collet style FCD or pushing against it. That crimp will hold.

...your opinion is really welcome_
thanks for your attention!

[wilecoyote]

i fired thouands of rounds through my old 454 alaskan and just using a lee factory crimp die never had it tie up because of jumping crimp or any other reason. i have had it happen with my fa 475 though. but in those cases it was because there isnt to many cast bullets that work in you seat at the crimp grove. out of the ones that do work the are pretty much at the very end of the cylinder. same for my 454 fa gun but it didnt ever tie it up. probably since full power loads in the 454 dont have as much recoil as 475s. FA guns are probably the most precisely built handguns in the world but they dropped the ball with that to short of a cylinder. its why i sold both of mine and bought another linebaugh built gun.

...thanks: let me take further advantage of you for a deepening, sir:
do you think there may be other causes capable of causing a SRH cylinder blockage ?
I ask you because I have experienced a progressive hardening of the rotation in the .44 SRH using store-bought one-piece plastic snap caps and also with homebuilt, heavy crimped, from .44 cases, snap caps.
this doesn't happen to me live firing the same gun_
in this case, it's evident that the snap caps are damaged under repeated percussion beatings: no big deal, but in the 629, nor in the 29s, counterbored or not, it never happened to me...

[Lloyd Smale]

really cant help you without seeing the gun but it just might be out of spec a bit. rugers arent known to have consistent machining. are the case head dragging and making marks. ive actually seen this more with light loads. the cases dont expand enough and grip the cylinder walls and come back a bit and ive even seen it cause primers to set back and protrude enough to tie up a gun. i dont know if you do this or not but NEVER put oil in your chambers.

[wilecoyote]

...thank you, sir_ I have no way of verifying the striking strength except empirically, but it could happen that the direct percussion system of the old 29s requires/exerts less force than the one adopted in the SRH, which seems to be more punitive towards harmless snap-caps ?

[contender1]

Well, as you've uncovered,, the most likely cause of cylinder & action binding is bullet jump.

But not mentioned is the FACT that many people think they can ignore proper reloading manuals information, and load "rocks & dynamite" ammo, and fail to understand the physics of such actions. A proper load,, AND a proper crimp will prevent bullet creep, or jump as it's called. Recoil causes physical actions we can not see with our eyes,, and is only uncovered by the variables in our firearms AND ammo.
I've shot many really big bore handguns,, with both mild to wild handloads. And occasionally, I've had ammo that was both loaded by myself or others recoil enough to break the tension of a crimp. But once it's discovered,, it's an easy correction.

Physics is the reason we often have such discussions about firearms. Sadly,, too many people fail to understand real physics.

[wilecoyote]

...Contender1, to the credit of Those who have answered me, I can say that Everyone has expressed much, much more than what is usually reported in the manuals.
I'm very pleased that you are here too, sir, so I take this opportunity to ask you too, if there is a significant difference in the percussion force exerted on the primers in a striker-fired SRH compared to the old hammer-fired 29s. this of course in OEM condition, without modifying springs, etc._both .44magnum, in my case, o.c._
You can find the reason for the question just in my previous post before yours...
thanks again!

[Lloyd Smale]

only guns i ever worried about using snap caps were the old smiths with the firing pin on the hammer. ive got rugers that i have dry fired probably a thousand times and it never caused even one problem

[wilecoyote]

only guns i ever worried about using snap caps were the old smiths with the firing pin on the hammer. ive got rugers that i have dry fired probably a thousand times and it never caused even one problem

...thanks for the pointer, sir. I will try to do the same.
(I only ever had/have old Smiths, until this Ruger)

[DougGuy]

Striker fired describes the firing action of an autopistol without a visible hammer. The trigger moves the striker back compressing the spring, and once the trigger has completed it's swing, the striker is allowed to move forward from the energy stored in the spring. This is commonly called striker fired.

Your Ruger would have a transfer bar ignition.

[wilecoyote]

Striker fired describes the firing action of an autopistol without a visible hammer. The trigger moves the striker back compressing the spring, and once the trigger has completed it's swing, the striker is allowed to move forward from the energy stored in the spring. This is commonly called striker fired.
Your Ruger would have a transfer bar ignition.

Thank you. I apologize for my wrong terms.
the question about the force exerted during percussion by the two different revolvers, however, remains.

[contender1]

DougGuy beat me to an answer.
No problem with your incorrect terminology,, we all can make a mistake.
The older S&W's do have the firing pin in the hammer. And the Ruger has a firing pin mounted in the frame,, with a safety transfer bar that the hammer strikes.
Totally different action design.
As such,, the amount of force applied by each design can be different. Yet,, BOTH will reliably ignite factory ammo. Handloads,, throw in other variables. Different primers,, how they are seated, etc, can all affect the performance.

As for the reason various snap caps eventually cause binding,, I'd guess it's very small amounts of "damage" to the snap cap over many repetitions cause them to change dimensions. When live ammo is fired,, there is the physical recoil of the case against the rear of the frame, (recoil shield,) and you are only using that case/primer combo once.
I hope this helps!

[pmer]

I think seating pressure can go a long way towards securing a boolit in the case. More than just the crimp if it takes some force to push the projectile in the case it should hold it more securely as well. I would pay attention to seating pressure and boolits that had low seating pressure, those cartridges would come apart easier with an impact bullet puller even with good crimps. To me, those rounds would be more likely to stop a hard kicking revolver. And consistent seating pressure makes for consistent velocities.

[contender1]

I had another thought about the difference of the 629 vs the Ruger when it comes to snap caps. Does the 629 cylinder have recessed case head cuts? Rugers don't,, and if the S&W does,, it may be part of why a snap cap doesn't cause any binding when using them. I may go & check my M29-2 to see if it has recessed heads.

[wilecoyote]

I had another thought about the difference of the 629 vs the Ruger when it comes to snap caps. Does the 629 cylinder have recessed case head cuts? Rugers don't,, and if the S&W does,, it may be part of why a snap cap doesn't cause any binding when using them. I may go & check my M29-2 to see if it has recessed heads.

my 629 Hunter was not counterbored_
my 29-3 Silhouette is not counterbored_
my 29-2 is counterbored_
none of these old S&Ws chewed snap-caps like SRH,
which is not counterbored_

The ol' S&W's do have the firing pin in the hammer.
The Ruger has a firing pin mounted in the frame...

hence my assumption, which sought confirmation from someone in-the-know,
regarding heavier weight of the spring(s) used for percussion in the case of frame-mounted f.p. or, more properly said, maybe that "the frame-mounted firing pin requires more spring energy to reliably ignite primers".
(italics because the sentence is not mine: I stole this theory elsewhere, but it was said about a new classic 19s&w)



no big deal, as I said. Just curious_ strange thing

[contender1]

Ok,, I can see the logic. I do not own nor have much experience with the 629, or even a 29-3. My only M29-2 is counter-bored and this prompted my thoughts.

[wilecoyote]

heartfelt thanks anyway, Sir_
and I say this knowing full well the caliber of the Connoisseur who is answering me.

[DougGuy]

I think seating pressure can go a long way towards securing a boolit in the case. More than just the crimp if it takes some force to push the projectile in the case it should hold it more securely as well. I would pay attention to seating pressure and boolits that had low seating pressure, those cartridges would come apart easier with an impact bullet puller even with good crimps. To me, those rounds would be more likely to stop a hard kicking revolver. And consistent seating pressure makes for consistent velocities.

^^^^WORD.... Case tension is VERY important and also as you state, having it consistent is equally important.

A crimp all on it's own with no neck tension will not work nearly as well.