Use of with results using Waltz die and Paco Accurizer to swage 22LR

[Larry Gibson]

Thought I'd move this over from the S&S forum for further discussion and examples.


I did a lot of research on this and there are mixed results. It will not be a "game changer" for every gun or type of round, but it can improve groups for some guns and rounds.

The one study was 8000 rounds in a variety of guns. The conclusions were:

It will not make match ammunition out of bulk ammunition. In general, groups will improve most of the time, but not always. It will make a more effective hunting bullet with the larger HP.

I've both a Paco Kelly Accurizer and the Neal Waltz die for 18 +/- years and use one or the other on most all my 22LR ammunition exception being the high end 22LR Match I use for 100 yard BR competition. Groups with regular 22LR do improve most of the time. CCI Blazer Is one that is really improved both for accuracy and when HP'd for hunting. The increased terminal ballistics of the larger HP made with both tools and the "Nasty Nose" with the Accurizer can be readily seen and heard.

With the Waltz die when I find the correct amount of swaging and/or HPing I measure the OAL length of the die bottom to top of adjustment stem and record that measurement. Thus, when more of that particular 22LR ammunition is had I simply adjust the die to that OAL and it is good to go w/o any further testing.

With the Paco Kelly Accurizer I found long ago that whacking with a mallet wasn't very consistent. An Arbor press works much better but the one I have doesn't have a "stop" so consistency of the swage, while better than whacking, still wasn't what i wanted. I found a use as an arbor press for an old Craftsman drill press stand [hand drill attached to it, but the hand drill gave up the ghost many years ago] worked much better. With the Accurizer I measure the AOL of the swaged rounds and record the OAL of the most accurate for a particular 22LR brand/type of 22LR cartridges. The drill depth stop of the press can easily be adjusted to reproduce that OAL with a new batch of the same cartridges with excellent results.

317218 317219

317220

Here is the results of a 100 yard test of Winchester "White Box" match 22LR. Rifle used was my Stock Remington M37 {made in '51/'52] with a Weaver T36 scope on it. The inner ring is 1". You can see the improved accuracy as the 22LR cartridge is swaged in various amounts. Still, it does not equal the accuracy level of OOB [Out OF Box] Lapua Midas+ [ottom target].

317221

[Electrod47]

Following Thank you Mr. Gibson

[recumbent]

I too have been using the Waltz sizing die Thanks for the tip on measuring the die. I have the HP, round nose and the eley style.
I have found the best accuracy improvement on bulk pack ammo.

[Larry Gibson]

I too have been using the Waltz sizing die Thanks for the tip on measuring the die. I have the HP, round nose and the eley style.
I have found the best accuracy improvement on bulk pack ammo.

I've found on some Federal bulk [525 a box] the copper plating and bullet nose will crack/split if swaged enough with the HP nose punch to bring all the drive bands to .225. Thus, I use the Eley style to swage the drive bands out and then use the HP punch. Sounds like a lot of extra work but using the Lee hand press I can do the 525 rounds sitting comfortably in my recliner while watching a movie or a couple episodes of old TV westerns and sipping on a cool drink.

In posts 84 and 93 in this thread, https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?63-Rimfire-Area, you see some of the 22LR ammo used ant the test results. Some of the results was between the same 22LR ammo swaged and OOB (Out Of Box).

[Minerat]

Thank you Larry! I was just going to clean the ad up removing all discussion and now that you have moved the discussion to this area I will post a link and clean it up.

Steve,
Cast Boolits moderator

[jsizemore]

That link takes me to the rimfire page but not a particular thread.

[Larry Gibson]

That link takes me to the rimfire page but not a particular thread.

Try: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?458726-Shooting-the-AR15-22LR-Conversion-Kits

I corrected the original post.

[phaessler]

As I was saying before we were moved..... Gave up trying to get a Paco or a Waltz die and did my own thing....

CH4D 22LR seating die, a Lyman M die stem, and some tedious lathe work on various machine screws..... Profound accuracy results and performance on bulk ammo..
317239

[DDriller]

I had never thought of using the Eley style to swage the drive bands out and then use the HP punch. Thanks Larry, I"ll have to give it a try. I use mostly CCI Blazer and CCI Standard velocity rounds.

[uscra112]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

[barrabruce]

Which nose profile works best over all.
I tried a hollow point and a small flat nose.
A hollow point for me gave more womp but a small flat nose was more accurate and gave a bit better effect than the soft lead rn.
Does the Eley nose do anything besides make it look pretty?
I large flat nose does hit above its weight but not for me at range.
Just asking.
I suppose you don’t need to hold onto the rim on the base die if you made one for a press.
Just keep the base flat and clean.
I had some improvement with a basic home made one.
I think I might try and make a better mouse trap.

[sparky45]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Phil, I'd be interested in the drawings you made.

[dverna]

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/d3/pdf/rfcftp/pdfs/resizing-project.pdf

This a long read but may be of interest. Scroll up after clicking on the link.

[barrabruce]

Thanks Dverna for the link.
Interesting.

[303Guy]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Hi Phil. I would be interested if you don't mind. Thank you.

[uscra112]

Hi Phil. I would be interested if you don't mind. Thank you.

Need your email address.

[barrabruce]

I got my old home made one out and tried it.
I can reform to fill the throat of the chamber.
When chambering by hand the bullet starts to feel about 1/3rd way in and the last 1/8" or so is harder to push into the chamber.
Very hard to extract.
Shoots clean and empty falls out.
Haven’t tested for accuracy yet.

I do seem to rub a little lube off in reforming/chambering and extraction.
Sometimes the lead seems to smear over the crimp space if that makes sense and leaves a shiny ring on the base of the bullet in the case upon extraction.

Should I lube with a smear of bw/vas/

I suppose testing will tell if it improves things any.

Is this it what I should be looking for or just enough expansion so the bullets nudge something in the front when chambered?

Thanks
Bruce

[fiberoptik]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Me 2!

[uscra112]

P/M your email addys to me, guys.

[GhostHawk]

I have been using a Waltz die to enlarge .22lr for a Heritage convertable .22lr/22mag.

So far at about .224 I have had very good results. Enough so that I am happy with my purchase.

I have been hollow pointing bulk lead nose solids into hollow points and enlarging them from .222 to 224 or thereabouts. Which is all that seems to be needed to make them shoot well.

[uscra112]

Has anybody who asked not gotten their drawing? I think I got everybody, but the number of requests had me scrambling for a bit.

A couple of years ago I offered this to Swede Nelson at NOE to add to his line. I don't think he ever did. Maybe if he saw this thread he'd reconsider.

[303Guy]

I haven't received mine yet.

[uscra112]

I haven't received mine yet.

Sorry I missed you.

Remind me of your email addy.

Phil

[cwlongshot]

Here is the one I found in Michigan.

https://youtube.com/shorts/DeORCt5QcpA?si=70V8_1Im1Nxaeo6Z

[303Guy]

It's been a while but I finally got around to making up some prototype dies and punches to test. This is to get the sizes and shapes right.

https://i.postimg.cc/xTqV2Fm8/20240106-115023.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/TY6320t6/20240108-192215.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/jjsx6SGk/20240108-192144.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/CKY1vNf7/20240108-192318.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And the results at 30m

https://i.postimg.cc/Gp1QqZQf/2024-01-06-Modified-CCI-Sub-HN-30m-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This one is sized to take a CCI sub HN. The wax on the bullet stops it from sliding into the die which is a close fit. The idea is to hold the cartridge in alignment while the nose hollow is being opened up. There is no drive band expansion. The first test was simply to make sure they still shoot straight in my rifle and they do. I have made a second set that does expand the drive bands but I haven't tried shooting any yet. That one is intended for attempting to accurize rounds that don't shoot well. CCI shoot well in this rifle, that being my Voere, but don't perform well enough on the critters I shoot. They do seem to work better now. I only had one example but the damage made it look like the critter had been hit by something more powerful.

This particular one works best standing the loaded die on its nose like in the upright picture, then pressing the cartridge down onto the expander pin. I have an adjusting stopper to get the right stroke. Another die for expanding the drive bands works best with the case down so that the rim centers the case in a chamfer, otherwise the case is sloppy in it.

The case with the expanded nose just gets pushed out by the top punch.

[dverna]

It's been a while but I finally got around to making up some prototype dies and punches to test. This is to get the sizes and shapes right.

https://i.postimg.cc/xTqV2Fm8/20240106-115023.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/TY6320t6/20240108-192215.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/jjsx6SGk/20240108-192144.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/CKY1vNf7/20240108-192318.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And the results at 30m

https://i.postimg.cc/Gp1QqZQf/2024-01-06-Modified-CCI-Sub-HN-30m-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This one is sized to take a CCI sub HN. The wax on the bullet stops it from sliding into the die which is a close fit. The idea is to hold the cartridge in alignment while the nose hollow is being opened up. There is no drive band expansion. The first test was simply to make sure they still shoot straight in my rifle and they do. I have made a second set that does expand the drive bands but I haven't tried shooting any yet. That one is intended for attempting to accurize rounds that don't shoot well. CCI shoot well in this rifle, that being my Voere, but don't perform well enough on the critters I shoot. They do seem to work better now. I only had one example but the damage made it look like the critter had been hit by something more powerful.

This particular one works best standing the loaded die on its nose like in the upright picture, then pressing the cartridge down onto the expander pin. I have an adjusting stopper to get the right stroke. Another die for expanding the drive bands works best with the case down so that the rim centers the case in a chamfer, otherwise the case is sloppy in it.

The case with the expanded nose just gets pushed out by the top punch.

Great results!!!

[303Guy]

So what I didn't show was the slight boo boo on the expander pin. I only discovered it when I was posting the photos as they blow up the image. So I sneakily used a smaller image so no-one would notice. [smilie=1:

Here is the boo boo. :oops:

https://i.postimg.cc/C548ssYn/20240108-192318-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And here it is fixed. :Fire:

https://i.postimg.cc/vTy9nNRd/20240109_141125.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I need a pair of watchmaker eye glasses for lathe work. Mmm .. I just found a pair for NZ$18 from China while I was looking up what they are called. They say $18 but it will come out at $30 after tax and shipping. But at least I would be able too see what I am doing! :mrgreen:

[cwlongshot]

Impressive!

Are you selling these?

CW

[303Guy]

Well, these were prototypes just to test the principle before getting more involved. It turns out that the nose hollow expander is so easy that I'll just use it as is. I never thought of selling them but I could make you one for fun.

[Woodtroll]

I'd buy a set if you decided to sell these. Or, would you be willing to share dimensional drawings, so some of us could make our own without having to work out the dimensions by trial and error?

Either way, great idea and nice execution!

[cwlongshot]

Well, these were prototypes just to test the principle before getting more involved. It turns out that the nose hollow expander is so easy that I'll just use it as is. I never thought of selling them but I could make you one for fun.
Awesome!

I am interested! Just let me know! Let me know what I can do or what you need.

CW

[303Guy]

I'd buy a set if you decided to sell these. Or, would you be willing to share dimensional drawings, so some of us could make our own without having to work out the dimensions by trial and error?

Either way, great idea and nice execution!
One problem is to get accurate and repeatable measurements. I can do a SOP for the hole expander which is where the measuring becomes a problem. Or a small change in design to facilitate quick change and length adjustments.

[303Guy]

Awesome!

I am interested! Just let me know! Let me know what I can do or what you need.

CW

Will do. I'll attempt to make a replica with methods (SOP). What I am missing at the moment is an adjustable reamer in that size. I drilled then used a small single point boring tool then polished with emery paper. Anyway, I'll work on it and get back to you both.

[303Guy]

Just an update for those interested in my 'accurizer' - I haven't spent much time on it as yet. I actually lack the suitable reamers but I'm busy on making a dremel tool holder with the idea of doing the final honing to the desired bore diameter. I have figured out a repeatable way to make the expander pin so that I can repeatedly make the pin to a desired size and shape.

[uscra112]

Small expanding laps look like the eye of a needle.

[303Guy]

Ja - and needle eyes are getting smaller and smaller! I should just stick to the big stuff I can actually see. :bigsmyl2:

[GBCAPT]

I have searched for a Waltz die with no success, but did find a phone number for Mr Waltz.

I called him this afternoon. He answered and said he was no longer making them due to age related issues - he is in his late 80s now.

He did say someone was interested in resuming making them, and that if I called again in about a month hemight be able to refer me to a source.

In the mean time I am looking for a used one.

[uscra112]

Parts to make a "Waltz-type" tool that works very well are an easy lathe project. Look back to the first page of this thread.

[Chill Wills]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Okay, I can't resist any longer!
It is winter. The days are short and the nights, long and I have a lot of low grade 22rf ammo to play with. When you have time, may I please get a set of plans too.
Thanks so much.

[uscra112]

Okay, I can't resist any longer!
It is winter. The days are short and the nights, long and I have a lot of low grade 22rf ammo to play with. When you have time, may I please get a set of plans too.
Thanks so much.

What's your email address?

[M-Tecs]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Since you are already sending one out hopefully it's not too much trouble to send me a copy also? PM sent with e-mail. Thanks!!!!!!

[Chill Wills]

What's your email address?

Thanks! PM coming with email address

[303Guy]

So what I didn't show was the slight boo boo on the expander pin. I only discovered it when I was posting the photos as they blow up the image. So I sneakily used a smaller image so no-one would notice. [smilie=1:

Here is the boo boo. :oops:

https://i.postimg.cc/C548ssYn/20240108-192318-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And here it is fixed. :Fire:

https://i.postimg.cc/vTy9nNRd/20240109_141125.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I need a pair of watchmaker eye glasses for lathe work. Mmm .. I just found a pair for NZ$18 from China while I was looking up what they are called. They say $18 but it will come out at $30 after tax and shipping. But at least I would be able too see what I am doing! :mrgreen:

Hi folks. It's been a while. I offered to make or produce a drawing on my version of a hollow point expander which works very well for me. Anyway, I've been a bit out of it since that time. Nothing life threatening but just not too well. I'm slowly getting back into things. I never slacked off going out possum shooting though! But it did slow me down. It was just some bug I picked up from my grand daughters but it hit me way too hard! I suspect there was more to it than just the bug. We won't go into it but I suspect y'all know what I mean. Anyway, I just thought I would touch base and let those of you who were interested know why I went quiet.

[Texas by God]

Welcome back 303guy!
I thought of you the other day while shooting my 510 Remington.[emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rapier]

303 best of luck with your recovery, hope you have no residual effects.

[303Guy]

Thank you guys. Time for me to get my 510 and 511 out to the range again!

I want to try actually expanding the bullet a little to see if it helps with the 511. That one unfortunately has a rough patch in the bore which I think is causing a build up that degrades accuracy potential. The patch is visible as just a dull area. No pitting or rust. It's as though some chemical agent got in there. There is also an area around the muzzle where the blueing has been damaged. Anyway, I'll give the expander a go and see what happens. I've got quite a bit of odd ammo that needs to be used up.

[Patrick L]

Going back to the start of the thread, I have a Paco Kelly tool. I have found that it can make a difference on "moderately good" ammo, but it is a waste of time on "not good" ammo.

What I mean is, I will shoot groups with any and all ammo just to see how it does. If a load shoots poorly, I've found that things like rim sorting, nose forming etc. are not going to improve things. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, or something to that effect. But, if I get something that will stack 4 real tight and consistently throw 1 flyer, I find that such tweaking may help things, often eliminating (or at least reducing) those pesky fliers.

In terms what what constitutes poor or good, everyone's standards will vary. I'm shooting two sporter type rifles, a Ruger American Rimfire and a CZ 452 trainer. Both have sub $100 4-12× rimfire scopes. From sandbags, if I'm doing 1/2 inch 50 yard 5 shot groups ("dime size"), I consider that good. Now a quarter size group isn't exactly bad, but I know my equipment and abilities are capable of better. So that's what I strive for. Some would consider that poor shooting. Especially with better guns and glass. I won't argue

[uscra112]

Weight sorting made a difference when I was testing Thunderbolts, which back then anyway were "junk' ammo. As you would expect looking at the stats - it became obvious after a while that they were running three different bullet swagers, no two of which were producing equal weights, by as much as 2-3 grains, and loading the results willy-nilly on the assembly machines. Weight sorting plus swaging the bullets to a uniform .2250 cut groups from a bone-stock Ruger in half. Omit the weight sorting and those "pesky fliers" return.

[fiberoptik]

I always called them “thunder-duds”. Were usually 3-5 per hundred that went “click”.

[uscra112]

That, too. I chose them for my experiment because they were universally acclaimed as the worst .22 ammo commercially available. And because I'd naively bought several bricks during the first Clinton administration. I still have a couple. Haven't found anybody I disliked enough to give them to.

[fiberoptik]

I always seemed to forget just how bad it was and would pick it up in packs of 333, 555 etc.

[303Guy]

It surprised me to discover that Eley sub hollow nose shot so poorly in most of my rifles. I would have expected at least equal to CCI. Mind you, CCI seems pretty good.

Anyway, on Saturday evening I had two possum in my sight. Both shoulder shots. The first one broke its foreleg and surprisingly, the thing ran down the branch, up the trunk to the next branch, then out along that branch. Before I had the chance fire again, it dropped to the ground, kicked a bit then lay still. The bullet exited halfway down its side. I was expecting the bullet to stop in the body! Normally those opened up bullets hit hard and don't exit. They certainly hit much harder than the unopened up ones. Maybe I should widen the hollow more. Somewhere I recorded what I did to make the expander punch but I seem to have lost it. I'll have to start again. But I want those critters to decease and desist on impact.

[warren5421]

What DO I needed for a 10-22 using CCI HP:
o Range Delux Acu’rzr #3
o 22 SS (SuperShorts) Acu’rzr Deluxe
o Rimcheck
o NEW PHASE FOUR ACU'RZR
o MAXPRO THREE
o MAXPRO FOUR

[Antietamgw]

I always called them “thunder-duds”. Were usually 3-5 per hundred that went “click”.

I bought a couple bulk packs of these when .22 LR was about impossible to find. I figured to use it in training the grandkids with their 10/22's and save the better quality stuff. Horrible ammo but they got a lot of experience in clearing jams, failures to feed and misfires. They now know exactly how to safely handle a failure. That's some pretty valuable ammo!

[barrabruce]

Well just for theory.
If one could make the sizer with the same chamber reamer as the rifle and all things considered.
Would that be the ultimate?
You could still do nasty noses or dimples or things.

I seem to get a bare bit of lead ring down at the crimp after forming.
Anyone experience this?
I’ve wiped a bit of bw/vas on them but can’t seem to see much difference in group size.
Performance should be different thou.