Need a .45-70 load in Hornady brass

[cpaspr]

I know about the length discrepancy in .45-70 brass from Hornady, and understand their reasoning. Reloaders are not their concern. We don't generally buy their ammo. Maybe their bullets, but not the loaded ammo.

I have over 300 empty Hornady cases, all from LEVERevolution ammo, and I'm okay with the shorter length.

I have Lee dies specifically for the shorter brass.

The rifle is an H&R Buffalo Classic.

I'll be getting a 405gr Lyman mold and a pound of 5744 powder tomorrow, but I'm not locked in to just that combination. Probably to start with, yes. But later, may drop to a lighter boolit and/or different powders.

What I'm not seeing, anywhere, is reloading data specifically for reloading the shorter Hornady brass. Loading the same boolits in the shorter cases to the same crimp groove WILL increase pressure. How much? Is it enough to matter? I don't know.

Has anyone worked out the amount to decrease the powder charges using the shorter brass? Or do you?

Thanks in advance.

[NSB]

If you’re loading them in a single shot rifle, this shouldn’t be much of a problem. The whole idea of creating these cases was so you could load the 325g gummy tips in a lever gun and have them feed through the action. For your single shot, you’re using cases about .1” shorter than other cases. Try loading to the “book” OAL by not seating the bullet into the crimp groove. For a single shot this isn’t a problem. Start at the suggested starting load and work your way up.

[Sgt H]

Probably not going to find data specifically for the short Hornady cases as data is based on SAMMI specs. As long as your not loading upper level loads the increase in pressure is likely not to be much. In a single shot you can just load to the listed length and not crimp. Another potential issue with the short cases and lead boolits is that extra space in front of the case before the typical 45 degree transition at the front of the chamber. When the powder ignites the boolit will obturate into any available space unless the alloy is hard. When the bumped up boolit tries to squeeze past that 45 degree transition could potentially shave a lead ring off the boolit.

[NSB]

Like I suggested, load to original OAL for the regular cases.

[longbow]

This thread got me looking for info as well just in case I wind up with some Hornady short brass.. Lee does indeed make a die set for the short Hornady brass and they make a factory crimp die for them as well.

They did have load data but have deleted it and say to go to powder manufacturer's website... I suspect lawyers/CYA/liability issues. I did not find load data specifically for the shorter brass but I didnt look real hard either.

You have the answer above for a single shot where you do not need to crimp.

I would like to know if there is any significant change in pressure using same load data in 0.060" shorter brass with the bullets seated to crimp groove so I will keep looking. I am sure someone somewhere has looked at this.

Longbow

Update: So I looked but didn't find much so far except for 1895 gunner showing normal brass with solid 325 gr. bullet and Hornady short brass with 325 gr. FTX bullet using the same charges of H4198 and showing same velocities but no pressure listing.

[chriskendziora]

Load cast pick a bullet with multiple grooves and seat to the second groove.

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[chriskendziora]

Like these and seat on the second groove..https://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=94

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[BLAHUT]

This thread got me looking for info as well just in case I wind up with some Hornady short brass.. Lee does indeed make a die set for the short Hornady brass and they make a factory crimp die for them as well.

They did have load data but have deleted it and say to go to powder manufacturer's website... I suspect lawyers/CYA/liability issues. I did not find load data specifically for the shorter brass but I didnt look real hard either.

You have the answer above for a single shot where you do not need to crimp.

I would like to know if there is any significant change in pressure using same load data in 0.060" shorter brass with the bullets seated to crimp groove so I will keep looking. I am sure someone somewhere has looked at this.

Longbow

Update: So I looked but didn't find much so far except for 1895 gunner showing normal brass with solid 325 gr. bullet and Hornady short brass with 325 gr. FTX bullet using the same charges of H4198 and showing same velocities but no pressure listing.

Pick the load and powder you want to use and drop the powder charge by 10% and run over a coronagraph with bullet crimped in crimp groove, and work back up ?? Then you will know ??

[cpaspr]

Okay, followup time. Sorta.

Finally got time to cast this last weekend. With my alloy, the boolits dropped at .458". Just for the sake of knowing, I seated an unsized boolit long in a sized, deprimed case. Max SAAMI spec is 2.55" COAL. My test case is at 2.705", and the rifle closes and latches. The top driving band and top lube groove are fully exposed, along with part of the 2nd drive band from the top. If I seat to the max 2.55" COAL, it looks like the top driving band and most of the lube groove will still be exposed.

[longbow]

Pick the load and powder you want to use and drop the powder charge by 10% and run over a coronagraph with bullet crimped in crimp groove, and work back up ?? Then you will know ??

No disagreement there.

The question is, how much will pressure increase if the bullet is seated to the crimp groove in the shorter brass so effectively the bullet will be taking up 0.060" more space in the brass just as if it was seated deeper. This has to raise pressure but how much? If shooting in a lever gun or Ruger #1 or equivalent I doubt it is a concern at all but if shooting in a Trapdoor Springfield it could be. With BP loads filling the case no problem because you have less room for powder but for smokeless loads it is different.

Also, standard dies don't allow crimping of the shorter brass, you need a shorter crimp die.

If a guy isn't crimping then yes, just seat to normal OAL and the gun won't know the difference.

Longbow

[Rockindaddy]

At one time I had over 300 lbs of 5744. Still have about 20 some pounds left. Have loaded it in my 45-70's including a pair of Gatling guns. I would start with 25 grs and seat your bullet on the last lubricating groove. Back up the seater plug and screw the die back to where you can feel the crimp ring contact the loaded case. Screw the die in a little at a time till you get a nice crimp. Now screw the seating punch in till it kisses the bullet. Lock it in place. Your shorter cases with the cast lead boolit should work great. Play with your powder charge till you get a decent group. Old IMR 4759 burns similar to 5744 and delivers about the same results. Have fun!

[cpaspr]

I think Lee's crimp die applies a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. And I have their LEVERevolution dies, so I will be able to crimp once I set my desired depth.

Since these will be fired in a single shot, with what appears to be a very generous chamber length, is there any problem with seating the bullet out to the COAL, even though it may leave the top lube groove exposed? And if not, I'm assuming said lube groove should be unfilled.

[Ramjet-SS]

Like I suggested, load to original OAL for the regular cases.

:goodpost::goodpost:

[cpaspr]

Like I suggested, load to original OAL for the regular cases.
:goodpost::goodpost:

Yeah, I caught that. And that's what I'll do, but in my post two above, I'm asking, when loading to 2.55" COAL, will the exposed lube groove in the shorter shells be a problem?

[Milky Duck]

I use the longer cases for my BP loads and the shorter cases for my smokeless loads....and seat bullets in appropriately for each case length.....havent seen any issues.

[pworley1]

If you’re loading them in a single shot rifle, this shouldn’t be much of a problem. The whole idea of creating these cases was so you could load the 325g gummy tips in a lever gun and have them feed through the action. For your single shot, you’re using cases about .1” shorter than other cases. Try loading to the “book” OAL by not seating the bullet into the crimp groove. For a single shot this isn’t a problem. Start at the suggested starting load and work your way up.

This is what I do.

[DurangoDave]

I would think someone would have a more scientific answer, considering how common chronographs are now-a-days.
Start with a 45-70 handload with plenty of airspace. Then cut the brass down so there's no airspace. Use a chronograph to measure the difference.

[DurangoDave]

By cutting the brass I would think the speed of the projectile wouldn't be much faster. But there would be a higher chamber pressure.

[cpaspr]

Progress report.

I have just over 100 projectiles sized to .457" and lubed in the first three lube grooves, leaving the top groove empty. Lyman mold 457193.

The chamber length on the rifle is, how shall I say it, generous. Such that I can chamber a round loaded out to 2.74" or greater (if I'm remembering the specifics correctly) and have the rifle latch closed easily.

I know it shoots 405gr rounds loaded in normal length shells with 28 or 29gr of 5744 to 2.55" just fine. A couple dozen of those came with the rifle. But I'm thinking loading the boolit out a bit further gets the projectile closer to the lands and grooves, and should improve accuracy. Probably add one more grain of powder. Even loading out that long, there is still at least 1/2" of boolit in the cartridge ahead of the powder.

Opinions?

Thanks in advance.

[firefly1957]

I use the short cases for cat sneeze load of a 200 Gr Lee R.E.A.L. bullet sized at .457" over 5 grains of red dot and some filler to keep powder against primer . The load shoot well and gives 850 f/s it is on with hunting load at 25 yards but drops like a lead balloon after that!

I have now found one leverlution marked case that is the full 2.1 inches in length and I am certain they were given to me by a shooter from the same ammo box when he was sighting in for deer season???????

P.S. I powder coat or spray paint my cast rifle bullets then bake them so the grooves are not lubed anymore by me.

[cpaspr]

If it's 2.1" and marked Hornady, it wasn't a Leverevolution case. Or was it actually headstamped "Leverevolution"?

My friend that gave me the Hornady cases had sorted roughly 700 cases by headstamp. He kept the non-Hornady ones, but I measured all 306 cases he gave me, as Hornady markets both the shorter cases loaded with their XTP bullets, and normal length cases loaded with non-XTP bullets. Hornady is not concerned with whether or not their varying case lengths confuse reloaders.

[scattershot]

Unless you are loading razor edge Hellfire missile type loads, it shouldn’t make any difference. Normal 45/70 loads (Trapdoor Springfield) class loads should be fine in the shorter case, crimped normally.

[rintinglen]

Yeah, I caught that. And that's what I'll do, but in my post two above, I'm asking, when loading to 2.55" COAL, will the exposed lube groove in the shorter shells be a problem?

If you carry them in a pocket while hunting, the lube could gather lint, debris and or junk and make loading difficult. In a dusty climate, they might pick up sand particles that will wear the barrel. If you carry them in an ammo box sealed against the environment, no problem.

[35 Rem]

In a case as large as 45-70, I'd load without giving a 2nd thought to the very slight difference in case length. And I'd do the same whether or not your load to the same cartridge overall length as with normal brass or crimp in the crimp groove with the shorter Hornady brass. The tiny percentage volume change in such a large case is not going to make a big difference. Probably not even as much pressure rise and the normal shot to shot variation.

[cpaspr]

Update. I originally sighted it in at 50 yards, using some cast 410gr rounds in normal length brass loaded with 27gr of 5744, loaded to max spec of 2.55" COL. Those came with the gun. Using Remington Shoot! ballistics estimator software, I adjusted the scope to allegedly hit dead on at 100 yards (assuming a 405gr boolit, though).

Since this gun has such a generous chamber length, I made my reloads a bit beyond spec (2.635" OAL) to get closer to the lands. I also bumped the powder up. A bit too much up, perhaps. 30gr of 5744. Still a safe load.

Hodgdon's reloading center shows 27.0gr max for a Trapdoor, with pressure at 16,100 psi and velocity at 1394 fps.
For Lever Actions, they show a start load of 30.6gr, with pressure at 25,000 psi and velocity at 1468 fps.
For "Modern Rifles", they start at 36.0gr and go up to 40.0gr, with pressure and velocity peaking at 38,400 psi and 1826 fps respectively.

With that steel butt plate, yeah, they hurt. I can't imagine any higher amounts. I'm going to dial it back to about 27gr, though I'll keep the extra COA length, to minimize the boolit jump to the barrel. Loading to 2.635" in the Hornady Leverevolution brass, the mouth of the case hits mid point of the driving band between the top two lube grooves.

One thing I found interesting though, is that of the initial 34 primed cases, 28 weighed between 166gr and 171gr, but the other 6 were a good 30gr heavier. Not sure why.

[cpaspr]

I finished depriming and cleaning of the primer pockets of the rest of the brass yesterday. This morning I sorted the brass into "normal" and "heavy" piles. The "normal" brass all weighs in between 160 and 165gr. The heavy stuff is 195-200gr. Visually identical, though in looking at the headstamps some of the "heavy" stuff appears to have a heavier strike to the headstamps, such that I could sometimes guess which would be heavy. Sometimes. Not enough to assume I could tell every time, so I weighed them all. Out of 306 total, 72 were in the 195-200gr range. 23.5%.

Since they're all sized externally to the same dimensions, the only two reasons I can imagine for the huge weight variation are A) seriously thicker case walls resulting in less internal capacity, or B) a different alloy composition, but similar internal capacities.

I guess the only way to tell, short of cutting some of each top to bottom and comparing, or getting them analyzed by a lab, is to load some of each identically and shoot them, noting if there is any variation in point of impact.

Not really looking for responses, unless someone has another possible explanation, but I thought it odd enough to comment on.

[Milky Duck]

try filling to the very top of case with ......powder or???sugar??? and weigh it out on scales..then do same with other weight... do five of each and get average.... will be interesting to see your results water is normally used but I reckon a powder will be easier.

[cpaspr]

Follow-up. Both the 160ish and 195ish loads shot to the same POI, so it appears to be an alloy question, rather than thicker brass.

[elmacgyver0]

If you buy so called once fired brass, you will no doubt get plenty of the shorter Hornady brass.
I bought 200 cases from Capital Cartridge and about half were the shorter cases.
I got the Lee Lever Evolution dies and they include the factory crimp die, it is the collet type.
I have not yet loaded any.