Historical Developments and Achievements

[StrawHat]

I was just looking at the 1970 issues of Handloader Magazine and reading articles by some of the gunwriters of the day. It was a hoot reading about the new cartridges and how to get more from your 38 Special or 44.

One article in particular caught my attention. Harvey Donaldson was writing about Francis J Rabbeth and how he brought about one of the first 28 caliber cartridges and was able to shoot 1 ¼ “ groups at 150 yards. From additional reading it can be found that this was done with 25 grains of fine black powder pushing an 85 grain boolit! Also mentioned is his (FJR’s) development of the 25-20 cartridge in 1884 and using 22 grains of Hazard’s #3 powder and a 67 grain boolit he was able to shoot 1 ¾ “ groups (or less) at 200 yards from a rest. Not bad for a 25 caliber boolit at just past black powder velocities.

Donaldson wrote one thing that has given me much chance to consider


“...I have often wondered if the shooters of today ever give any thought to the simple fact that MOST of the improvements in rifles and their ammunition, since about the time of the Civil War, were brought about through the combined efforts of the woodchuck hunters of this country...”

An interesting thought and one that almost 40 years later still holds true. If not for the efforts of small game hunters looking for better rifles and ammunition many of the “improvements” we consider standard would have never been accepted. And many of the improvements have been incorporated into rifles for larger calibers or applied across the whole line of products from companies.

So it seems that varmint hunters drive R&D.

[cajun shooter]

I'm happy that we had these old writers and I too enjoy picking one of the old magazines up for a read. I will say however that I think the R&D came from all groups of shooters. Back in the late sixties and early seventies there was a man by the name of Lee Juras and he's the reason we have high performance ammo for handguns today. I was working in a gun store and if you walked in to any place that sold handgun ammo and asked for a box of the 38's , you were handed a box of 158gr round nose lead bullets. Oh and the other choice was the killer 200gr that would not even go through a car window. Mr Juras changed all that. To sum it up the R&D was much like this site; men with different interest coming together for a common cause. Later David

[Bret4207]

1 3/4" groups at 200 yards with a plain based lean/tin boolit. No air gauged barrels, no gas checks, no antimony or quenching or "hardcast" boolits. Many of us here would be well satisfied to get 1 3/4" groups at 100 yards with a gas check boolit and a 20x scope sitting on a rifle Rabbeth couldn't even imagine. It would do us good to go back and read Ned Roberts books and the writings of the other old timers. We're making progress, but they paved the way.

[HORNET]

IIRC, the case that ole J.Francis used was the .32 extra-long centerfire and he had Remington make a barrel with a bore to fit the inside diameter of the case instead of the outside lubricated bullet that the parent cartridge used. This ended up being about .28 cal. and he played with it for a while before deciding that it was too destructive on squirrels and blue grouse. He then necked the case down to a .25 cal and created what became known as the .25-20 Single shot, which became much more popular than he'd ever imagined, both as a target and hunting round.
I still kinda wonder how that .28 case would do with smokeless and something about 135 grains in a 12" twist barrel.

[Bret4207]

Hornet- Why not follow through and have CPA make up a nice job for the 28? If it doesn't work out you can always give it to me!

[Harry O]

I once read about a revolver that was made for a .22 Hornet necked up straight. I understand that it was about .25 caliber.

After I got rid of my .22 Jet because of aggravation, I thought a lot about the necked up hornet. Then I got into hot loading the .32 Long. Once the .32 Magnum came along, I have not thought much about the necked up Hornet.

[218bee]

I like reading about the development of small arms and ammunition and am always searching for rifles and handguns in calibers that are now out of favor. I guess I feel a little nostalgic shooting the "older" calibers. Most are fine in their own right and do the intended job well.

[HORNET]

Bret,
Unfortunately I've got somebody that's doing REAL good at disposing of my disposable income. I do think that it would match the old .28-30-135 Stevens for ballistics. Unfortuately, high quality .25-20 SS brass isn't readily available either. I have heard of folkls reforming .223 brass, though. Don't really need another project at the moment anyways.
Harry, the .25 Hornet's been around quite a while, both full length and shortened versions. It seems to be a little "twitchy" for really good accuracy according to some reports that I've seen on it. If you go almost completely straight with the case, you get the .270 REN, which some silhuette shooters favor.

[1Shirt]

HarryO, If you look at "Ctgs of the World", you will find a number of variations w/the hornet case. If memory serves me right, a 6mm, and a 25 for sure, and maybe a 6.5mm, and maybe even a .277. Have no experiance with any of these, but think one in a wildcat would be a lot of fun.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Bret4207]

Hornet- I have 5 or 6 of those "dispose of my disposable income" type people around here myself! Just figured I offer! Someday, assuming The One doesn't manage to outlaw everything fun, I hope to have a CPA 44 1/2 in at least 25/35 and 35-30/30. I'd love to have one of each of a bunch of calibers, but I that's beyond hope.

25 Hornet- neat little round, as is the 25 Bee. Either would be a lot of fun in a nice light woods walking rifle.

[Firebird]

22 Hornet case straightened out is the 270 REN, uses .277 bullets. Load info for it is in Hodgdon's #26 manual. I want a S&W K-frame converted to this caliber, but haven't found a Model 53 22 LR cylinder to get it re-chambered, or found someone make a cylinder for the conversion.

[MakeMineA10mm]

So it seems that varmint hunters drive R&D.

StrawHat - Especially when you consider that varmint hunters basically created modern-day BenchRest shooting, and that BR continues to drive most accuracy development. Varminting's child is now fostering the development, so varmint hunting still deserves some credit, just as you say.

[StrawHat]

Rabbeth and Donaldson were riflemen. And the thrust of the statement was directed to rifle and rifle ammunition development. Lee Jurras and Ernie Walleen (his partner) were able to capitalize on what handgun reloaders had known for years. They were also the reason the major ammunition companies finally got around to making decent self defense ammo, SuperVel proved it could be done for a profit and showed there was a market for it by taking money from the big boys. Eventually, instead of dismissing Jurras and SuperVel as a small time company, the big boys had to come around and jump on the band wagon or give up a big share of the market. They did this and more for us shooters. However, without the individual handloader much of the progress seen in the big companies would never have happened nor continue to happen. The 38 Special was an outgrowth of the inadequate 38 Long Colt. The 357 Magnum was an outgrowth of the 38 Special. Both of these cartridges were loaded by individuals long before the ammo companies even dreamed of such a headstamp.

Epoxy bedding, free floated barrels, pillar bedding and most of what is found on rifles today had it start in the bench rest gunsmiths shop.

Wildcatters gave us many of the most popular cartridges we have and still push the industry to introduce more “new” cartridges. The 25-06 and 35 Whelen, 308 and the new Magnums are all factory adoptions of cartridges dreamed up in the basements and shops of handloading loonies.

Who knows, maybe some of the cartridges or procedures we work with and discuss on this forum will someday become “common”.

[cajun shooter]

I agree 100% Strawhat with your posting. I have a love of all nice firearms and was referring back to the time of Juras to show that the handgun field had some people too. I mean who could ever forget Elmer Keith, met him in person as a young man. The smell of cigar and something from the liquid department was all over him. The liquid you drink is what I'm talking about. The rifle shooters are in my mind ahead by leaps and bounds in R&D. I just wanted to show that all shooters are together as we don't need a split in the ranks. I happen to like all old Chevrolet's but the guys with the Fords did some things also. I guess the purpose of my posting didn't come through like I wanted it. After attending the FBI Sniper School I was able to purchase a McMillan in 308. After break in she would put 5 in the same hole from 100 meters off the bench. It was rifle R&D that made this possible not ammo developement. My intentions were good. Later David