Acceptable cast bullet weight variation.

[braddock]

I'm casting Lee's LF 309.170, don't know what the lead is, largely range scrap. Boolits are turning out 163.2 grains to 164.1 grains with no real trends. By the time they are aloxed and gas checked the weight has grown to 168.1 to 170 grains.
The alox is bound to cause variations but the base casting weight, is that kind of variation OK?
They are for 30/30 btw in front of 18 grains of 2400 and an S&B LR primer in federal and winchester brass. Velocity is circa 1800 fps, accuracy is 3 shots in a 4" group at 100 yards, resting on a fence post with a williams peep rear sight and a 79 year old marksman(?).

[country gent]

The old rule of thumb was 1% variation but this variance is that a 50 grn cast boollit is allowed .5 grns +/_ while your 170 grn is allowed 1.7 grns +/_ and a 500 grn is allowed 5 gns +/_. I would test and see what your rifle load is affected by. One load 10 rounds at the extreme ends and 10 round that are exactly the same weight, This will tell you what affect it has on your rifle load and give an idea what is allowable
I normally cast bullets in the 360-550 grn range with my technique I throw the first 15-20 back in the pot and then keep them.Normally on a run of 400-500 they will be within .5 grns of each other. Work on your technique you may be able to tighten up the variance by pouring faster or slower, a bigger sprue or a little overflow.Sometimes a mall adjustment in temp can make a big difference

[braddock]

Thanks for that, I'm still learning as I go and wanted to perfect my technique with this mold before I move on to my 6 cavity one and the 357 one.

[country gent]

Keep in mind each mould has its own quirks and may take slightly different things as to technique and temp.

[braddock]

Lot like women, eh? I only have lee's dies, the 357 one is long in the tooth, has no steel alignment pins, just grooves and spigots machined into the casting.

[Divil]

I am happy if my 9mm, .38 and .357 boolits are within 2 grains. If casting .45, I would go to 3 grains variance. I think all of my present molds and alloys have no trouble achieving this standard.

[Digital Dan]

.3 grains for rifles. Cast, weigh and segregate.

[BLAHUT]

I'm casting Lee's LF 309.170, don't know what the lead is, largely range scrap. Boolits are turning out 163.2 grains to 164.1 grains with no real trends. By the time they are aloxed and gas checked the weight has grown to 168.1 to 170 grains.
The alox is bound to cause variations but the base casting weight, is that kind of variation OK?
They are for 30/30 btw in front of 18 grains of 2400 and an S&B LR primer in federal and winchester brass. Velocity is circa 1800 fps, accuracy is 3 shots in a 4" group at 100 yards, resting on a fence post with a williams peep rear sight and a 79 year old marksman(?).

When done casting for the day, say 50 lbs of bullets, I weigh each, and segregate each into its own pile by weight, everyone in the pile weighs the exact same. I am very anal, I shoot long range, every cartage in the box of 50 or 100 or, weighs the same.. This eliminates one possible cause of one leaking out of the 10 ring at distance ????? Velocity at about 1200 FPS. with a Double peep out to 1000yds... Starting and staying subsonic; eliminates one more possibility of leaking out of the 10 ring at distance... As far as what you are shooting; this will put dead dear in the freezer....

[Walter Laich]

as "sorta" mentioned above it depends on what you want from your loads

Shooting cowboy action with the 2x2 ft square targets a whopping 7 yards away is a mite different from precision shooting at 100 yards

. . . and yes, we can still miss those targets at times ;)

[metricmonkeywrench]

For load development with pistol calibers I prefer to stay within 1g (x.1 to .9) which is achievable if you have enough in the pile. Otherwise for general plinking within 2g or so for pistol. Haven't really gone that deep with rifle

[charlie b]

For pistol I never weigh the bullets. Cast, inspect for a filled out base, load and shoot.

Rifle I am like BLAHUT. Weigh and inspect. Sort into 0.1gn batches. Toss back any with visible flaws of any type.

[mehavey]

1%
and unless you're in the heavy bench rest
game you'll never know the difference.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?410814-Do-you-weigh&p=5014895&viewfull=1#post5014895

[quilbilly]

I'm casting Lee's LF 309.170, don't know what the lead is, largely range scrap. Boolits are turning out 163.2 grains to 164.1 grains with no real trends. By the time they are aloxed and gas checked the weight has grown to 168.1 to 170 grains.
The alox is bound to cause variations but the base casting weight, is that kind of variation OK?
They are for 30/30 btw in front of 18 grains of 2400 and an S&B LR primer in federal and winchester brass. Velocity is circa 1800 fps, accuracy is 3 shots in a 4" group at 100 yards, resting on a fence post with a williams peep rear sight and a 79 year old marksman(?).
I suspect yours is not a mold or lead problem if you are getting 4" clusters. Using the same mold, that is nearly the same load (19 gr), same primer, and same boolit I use in my 308 for sub MOA groups at 100 yds but my 30/30 doesn't like it at all. My 30/30 prefers a lower MV (around 1600) with a powders like Unique, 5744, or RE-7 which give me 1-1/2" groups or sometimes less using a Skinner sight plus handheld with a rest. Of course my 73 year old eyes have to be fresh in the morning when I can actually see the center of the target. I would try a load of 19 gr of either RE-7 or 5744, and possibly even a Unique that would get you to around 15-1600 fps mv. Just so you know, besides rifles, I have a T/C Contender 10" barrel in 30/30 and it likes even faster powders.

[Winger Ed.]

Unless I'm going to compete for the Bianchi Cup:
I keep batches separate since different alloys can have pretty big variances.
After weighing several batches from my Iron molds and not finding any variances big enough to really worry about-
if they look good, I shoot 'em.

[huntinlever]

No real logic behind it but the fact it's a 45-70, and I'm only using it to hunt to 150+/-, so I accept 390.0-391.9 out of my Accurate 46-406VG. I used to sort in 1 gram lots, but no longer see the point - worked up a load for this weight, it works, the rest get returned to the pot.

[Harter66]

Ok a couple of things.
1 1% is a standard. I don't know who came up with it but it makes sense I guess . It's a goal and goals are good .

2 I have had rifles that would throw 18" off over there for 2 gr of case weight . One would open from a .750 , 5 shot group to 1.5 for .3 gr of 4350 in an 06' case . I've had 2-3 that were just straight up garbage disposals . The 308 that would shoot 2.5" with 7.62 NATO ball that ran 145-151 gr in 80's Argentine surplus .

3 I have "better" 2c moulds that almost drop 2 different bullets and a couple of Lee 6 cav moulds that if I don't stay right in the groove will drop 2@-2 , 3@nominal , and 1@ +2-3 gr on 158-175 gr bullets . Then I have an 8cav H&G that drops inside 6/10 gr for all 8 at 196 gr 45 cal SWC and an NOE 461-535 @3 cav that has no identifiable difference in the 3 holes .

Last . Consistency is everything. Stable temperature throughout the pour lot . Stable cycle times including how long the mould is open and how long it takes to fill it.

[country gent]

I ladle pour my bullets I dont pour for sprue but pour the whole ladle into the cavities letting the excess flow over and back into the pot. My sprue plates are vented so the lead flow is controlled.
I cast with 2 moulds fill the first as above set aside and fill the second. Pick up the first cut sprue drop and refill. I run 20-1 around 700-725* in a 20 lb pot.
I put the first 15-20 casts back in the pot.
When done sort for visual defects ( not many) and weights are within .5 grn
This keeps bases hotter longer allowing for better fill and off gassing.You want to keep the mould cooling from the bottom up so gasses are released and the molten puddle can fill any voids as it cools. One other thing that is a help is I have several sets of cabin tree locking handles that close the blocks under the same pressure every time

[Shopdog]

Don't want to get too deep into it;

Been milling bases off N on for a cpl years. Shortening the overall length to drop a whole drive band sort of thing. Recently got it about perfected....

As it pertains to the weights; it has been a real eye opener. In a nutshell,most of the weight variance is caused by the sprue cutting. The "cheaper" the sprue plate,the worse the bases are about affecting the weights. And it's plain as day,meaning... you don't need reams of data and statistics.

Now whether you and/or the rig can shoot the difference?... that's on y'all. Get your bases "clean" and watch your weights get more consistent.

[stubshaft]

My criteria for culls is .5% based on total weight. I used to use a cupcake pan to separate all of the different weights, from lightest to heaviest.

This was for competition loads in my Sillywett guns. For plinking +/- 5 grains was good enough.

[Bigslug]

I went down the uber-precision rabbit hole years ago when competing in Highpower rifle. Eventually, I learned that there's a place for that kind of anal-retentiveness, and once you leave competition circles, you can set many of the practices that add significantly to production time aside.

The best way to start is to ask yourself the following question: "What is this tool FOR?" It sounds like you're running a .357 lever action with iron sights. This is not a long range competition gun. It is not a police sniper rifle. If the bench is only for load development, and you're primarily shooting standing or from field expedient positions, there's a practical limit to the accuracy YOU will be able to wring out of even the world's best rifle shooting the world's best ammo. That goes quadruple for handgun blasting ammo. It's basically a case of perfection becoming the enemy of good enough.

You can really do most of your culls based on visual cues - wrinkles, rounded edges on the base, unfilled bands, bad sprue cuts leaving and "outy", obvious voids or inclusions, etc... Weigh some of the duds and some of the pretty ones and you'll start to get a feel, but a sub-1% spread while you're learning the game ain't bad at all.

[porthos]

i have a piece of paper that that 28 ; 30 cal bullets; that the bullets vary from 189.8 to 190.2 i cast with a ladle. this is pretty much what i expect with my casting. never weighted a pistol bullet.

[BLAHUT]

I suspect yours is not a mold or lead problem if you are getting 4" clusters. Using the same mold, that is nearly the same load (19 gr), same primer, and same boolit I use in my 308 for sub MOA groups at 100 yds but my 30/30 doesn't like it at all. My 30/30 prefers a lower MV (around 1600) with a powders like Unique, 5744, or RE-7 which give me 1-1/2" groups or sometimes less using a Skinner sight plus handheld with a rest. Of course my 73 year old eyes have to be fresh in the morning when I can actually see the center of the target. I would try a load of 19 gr of either RE-7 or 5744, and possibly even a Unique that would get you to around 15-1600 fps mv. Just so you know, besides rifles, I have a T/C Contender 10" barrel in 30/30 and it likes even faster powders.

With old eyes try a double peep, aperture in the front, aperture in the back, you are not looking at the center of the target you are using the outside of the bull, when sighted in, the center of the sight will still put bullets where you are looking...

[charlie b]

Yep, the best open sight shooting I can do these days is a rear peep and globe front with a 'donut' insert. Size of front sight is chosen based on size of bull.

[braddock]

Thanks for the interest and responses, I sure appreciate them.
With regard to the accuracy of my shooting, as far as I'm concerned it's good enough.
On my best days in the past I could shoot sub 1" groups off a rest (who can't) with my 308 and 223 but standing or prone is a whole different ball game and as long as I can connect with the vitals when necessary I'm happy.
I have a red dot for running game but astigmatism wrecks it a bit.

[W.R.Buchanan]

For whatever you'd want to do with that boolit the weight variation is of absolutely NO consequence. ! I have shot hundreds of that same boolit in my .30-06's over the last 40+ years. I also have 309-190 GC and it was my Second Boolit Mold. Lee.429-240 was my first. I never weight sorted any of them

For shooting Cowboy Silhouette, or Plinking or just shooting Ground Squirrels you are good to go. Just load and Shoot, don't worry, just shoot!

Randy

[charlie b]

Agree. Back when I 'plinked' and hunted I never weighed the bullets. Just checked the drive bands for good fill out.

Even now days, if I take the lightest and heaviest from a batch and shoot, the load will be close to 2moa.

[porthos]

for those of you that are against useing a ladle; why not give it a try and see if you get a more consistent weight. sure would save the time you waste weighting. oh, also, when i ladle cast, i hold the ladle around a quarter inch away.

[charlie b]

Heck, I'd still weigh them just to make sure they were all the same weight. Doesn't take more than a couple extra seconds while doing a close inspection. I inspect one and place it on the scale. Pick up the second, and inspect, then swap them on the scale. Easy peasy. Digital scales make it a simple process.

[huntinlever]

Heck, I'd still weigh them just to make sure they were all the same weight. Doesn't take more than a couple extra seconds while doing a close inspection. I inspect one and place it on the scale. Pick up the second, and inspect, then swap them on the scale. Easy peasy. Digital scales make it a simple process.

That's exactly what I do.

[justindad]

Assuming you have a quality mold and the cavities give similar weights… for pistol boolits: 0.5% is very easy to get as long as you have sharp corners everywhere. For long, skinny rifle boolits: ask someone else.
*
If a visual inspection was not good enough for a need I had, then I would be looking at a single cavity mold.

[405grain]

I used to ladle cast, but now I use bottom pours. I think that ladle casting might have an advantage in producing bullets with less weight variation over the length of the casting session, but I prefer bottom pour furnaces for other reasons. (mostly for the rapidity with which I can cast with them) The reason that I think that the ladles might give more uniform weight is because there's no change in head pressure over the casting session. When a bottom pour furnace is full there's a lot of weight in liquid lead squirting out the spout, but when 3/4 or more of the pot has been cast there's not as much pressure pushing the pour out of the pot. The difference has to be pretty small, but it could be one of the many things that contribute to weight variances from one bullet to the next. Other things like not getting a good fill out, inclusions, or differences in the sprue plate cut would be much bigger factors. All in all, I expect a "range" of weight from the bullets in any casting session.

Now, if these are pistol bullets, I only inspect for obvious defects, and never weigh them. I'm a pretty good pistol shot, but nowhere near good enough that something like this would make a difference. On rifle bullets the weight variation is determined by the use that I intend to use the bullets for. If they are plinking or practice loads the weight doesn't matter that much. If they are target or hunting loads it does. For target bullets I separate the batch by weight. Whatever the average weight is (+/- 0.2 grains), these are going to be my accuracy bullets. All the other bullets, both on the heavy end as well as the light end, and going to get used for shooting practice.

When I sight in a rifle I use the most accurate bullets that I've made. But once the rifle is sighted in, unless I'm trying for bragging rights target accuracy, it's time to get up off the bench and practice for real life situations. I take those bullets that were too light or heavy and use them for offhand practice. The way I see it, there aren't any benchrests out in the woods. But if you do a lot of offhand shooting you'll soon become surprisingly proficient at it. When I first started out I would have trouble getting a good pattern at 50 yards. I would wobble like I was trying to shoot while standing on top of a rocking chair. But, after a few months I got better, and was able to hit things like a 200 yard steel ram virtually every single time. If I could learn to do this, anybody can! Moral of the story: those bullets that are too light or too heavy, don't throw them back in the pot. Instead, (so long as they don't have any obvious defects) use them for practice rounds. At the bare minimum, once you get good at this, your shooting buddies that never get up from the bench will see you making hits off hand and will think that you're the most amazing shot they've ever seen. (Just don't tell them that they could do it too if they just practiced.)

[Jim22]

For what it's worth I subscribe to the one percent club. Dropping 100 grain .32 boolits I separate into piles of 100 to 100.9, 101 to 101.9, etc. With 200 grainers it's a two grain acceptance. 200 to 201.9, etc. If I do this I get decent groups. If I don't the groups open a lot. In doing this I find that 90% of the boolits are in two rows. Like 100 to 100.9 and 101 to 101.9. Those are kept separate and the rest, both lighter and heavier go back in the pot. These results are with COWW mix. If I add a little tin I might reduce the rejection rate but 90% success is good enough for me.

Jim