S&W 38 DA Top Break 2nd Mod: Smokeless powder loads

[mkj4him]

I just acquired a 38 DA top break made in the late 1800’s. It was made for black powder loads pushing a 146 gr lead bullet.
Does anyone have this gun and load for it? Please share your recipes.

316951

[Outpost75]

Soft-swaged 148 HBWC bullet seated out long to 1.15" OAL with 2.0-2.3 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup.

[mkj4him]

I do have 148 wad cutter mold but double ended. Not hollow based. Should still work though especially if sized up a bit by powder coat. I coat them clear so still look like shiny silver

[shooting on a shoestring]

Please don’t put any Trail Boss in it.
That old girl will do fine with light loads of Bullseye, Titegroup, Red Dot or even Unique.
But Trail Boss is not a low pressure powder. It is a low velocity powder but not low pressure.

With your top break revolver and your 148 double ended wadcutter, I’d be loading 1.6 grains of Bullseye which is the low end of data from Lyman 3rd edition with the 141 grain boolit 358495. The estimated velocity for that is 510 fps. Lyman gives the max for that boolit as 2.4 grains Bullseye and estimated velocity of 720 fps.

If you seat it out long like Outpost75 recommends, I agree you could use another couple of tenths of Bullseye. The 38 S&W case is small so the pressure will move a lot with a little bit of change in case capacity/seating depth.

You want to use enough powder to consistently get the boolit out of the barrel. But stop there. It’s an antique gun with antique metallurgy in an antique design. It’d be great to shoot it some but leave it shootable for the next few generations too.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I’ll add that I use 2.5 grains Bullseye in my Model 33 from the 1960’s with Accurate 36-130E. I consider that max for a Modern day solid top strap heat treated 38S&W.

[pworley1]

Most all of the starting loads for Bullseye and Red Dot have worked well in all my antique S&W 38's.

[mkj4him]

Thank you. I’ll study up in my books and on suggestions here. I have a number, if not all powders listed here. Thanks for the heads up on trail boss. My dies and brass should arrive this week and I will start working on it. Once the 38 mold arrives I’ll cast a few and post pictures. I’ll most likely want to shoot those mostly.

[mkj4him]

Would you say the 38 DA is more or less powerful than the 380 auto? You have a heavier bullet going slower than the standard 90 gr bullet at 800-900 in 380

[pettypace]

Would you say the 38 DA is more or less powerful than the 380 auto? You have a heavier bullet going slower than the standard 90 gr bullet at 800-900 in 380

Even at just 550 f/s, the .38 WC would give FBI-approved penetration and damage more tissue than a .38 caliber FMJ at considerably higher velocity. Consider the wound mass comparison in the graph below:

https://rewebster.org/pics/35wc150-550.png

[mkj4him]

That is very interesting information. Thanks.
Would a SWC cause a similar wounding effect? Or less?
Now that I think about it, I think the flat surface of the WC would cause more hydrostatic disruption than the SWC

[Tall]

I am using 3.0 grains of Unique with a 146 grain bullet. Seems to be a pretty good load.
https://reloadammo.com/38-s-w-load-data/

[mkj4him]

What pistol Model?

[shooting on a shoestring]

The take home message from Pettypace and his Virgel model is that wadcutters are wicked!

Not so good at ranges over 50 yards, but under 25 which includes most defensive incidents, a big ol’ full meplat boolit is a spleen splashin’ muscle mashin’ thorax thrashin’ bone bashin’ nerve gnashin’ chest crashin’ organ smashin’ kick-ashin’ mean piece of lead!

[mkj4him]

I just smiled. ��

[Tall]

What pistol Model?

Mine is an Enfield made in 1942 - far stronger than a S&W top break designed for black powder.

[mkj4him]

My bullet mold just arrived. Loading dies and Starline cases arrive Wednesday.
317037

[mkj4him]

Mine is an Enfield made in 1942 - far stronger than a S&W top break designed for black powder.
I would like one of those

[Ajohns]

I use the same loads Outpost 75 posted, with your same gun but 4"
It shoots to sights at 15 yds, and pretty darn good. My groove measured .360 so the hollowbase wc is nice for that. Load it to same overall length as the factory 146gr round.

[Frank V]

That’s a nice old gun, enjoy. Remember the pressure curve for black powder is very different than the pressure curve of smokeless even if pressures are similar.

[mkj4him]

So far with 154 gr lead SWC over 1.8gr red dot I’m getting around 550 fps. This a sampling of just 5 rounds though.
1.6 gr red dot under a 148gr solid based wad cutter was doing just under 500 fps.
I’m going to increase to 1.9 and 2 gr with the 148 wc. Same with 154. I will then switch to Unique and maybe 231.

I don’t expect to get these more than 600. I’ve cleaned my new 146 gr RN and installed handles. I will possible cast a few tomorrow. I’ll be testing those with powder coating.

[mkj4him]

Well this is disappointing. I pulled out my brand new Hornady 38 S&W loading dies and discovered the sizing die is missing the no lube titanium sizing ring. They are advertised to include the titanium ring.��
Not only that, but they way undersized the case is sized (before realizing the ring was missing) for use with .357” bullets, not the typical .360-.361” as my bullet mold is supposed to drop.
Anybody have these kind of issues? What dies are you guys using for this round in break tops??
I have an RMA in for a refund. Going to call hornady and ask what the deal is with these.

[gwpercle]

The 38 S&W is not easy to load for ... the .361" groove dia. causes all kinds of problems . I have tried Lee #365-95-1R sized to .361" or .362" but the boolit is rather light but with 2.5 grs. Bullseye makes a nice plinking load .
The best load is with a 148 gr. soft swaged lead HBWC , the hollow base fills out the bore and accuracy is decent . Load like Outpost75 instructs in post number two.
Seat out to 1.15" OAL over 2.0 to 2.3 grs Bullseye or TitegGoup , light roll crimp or taper crimp ,
just enough to hold boolit .

The swaged HBWC really solves a lot of your bullet size problems and cuts nice clean holes !

My dies are an older steel set of CH dies 38 S&W .
Hope this helps ,
Gary

[Ajohns]

I use three die set, Lee's brand.
They do size a bit small, about .356. But the expander sizes the inside of my Starline cases .358/9.
The hbwc slide in with not big tension, slight crimp to hold.

I did use .361 standard style bullets from Matt's. They had a bit more tension and shot well.

Some time ago I believe it was mentioned, 9mm Makarov dies maybe closer to this cartridge than some of the dies made for 38 S&W. At least the expander die

[mkj4him]

I talked to hornady. First, about the missing titanium sizing ring, they said they couldn’t use it because the case has too much of a taper. Second, they say yhe .357 sizing size is strictly geared towards using standard .357” bullets, thinking using soft lead will bump up.
I’m puzzled what to do now. From your replies it sounds like most companies are sizing cases to the smaller size. I guess I will look around. Maybe I might keep these for now, so I can properly load standard sized .358” bullets, and try and find a set that does the correct .361”.

[mkj4him]

The 38 S&W is not easy to load for ... the .361" groove dia. causes all kinds of problems . I have tried Lee #365-95-1R sized to .361" or .362" but the boolit is rather light but with 2.5 grs. Bullseye makes a nice plinking load .
The best load is with a 148 gr. soft swaged lead HBWC , the hollow base fills out the bore and accuracy is decent . Load like Outpost75 instructs in post number two.
Seat out to 1.15" OAL over 2.0 to 2.3 grs Bullseye or TitegGoup , light roll crimp or taper crimp ,
just enough to hold boolit .

The swaged HBWC really solves a lot of your bullet size problems and cuts nice clean holes !

My dies are an older steel set of CH dies 38 S&W .
Hope this helps ,
Gary
Does you CH die size for the correct size bullet? .360-.361”?

[mkj4him]

Please don’t put any Trail Boss in it.
That old girl will do fine with light loads of Bullseye, Titegroup, Red Dot or even Unique.
But Trail Boss is not a low pressure powder. It is a low velocity powder but not low pressure.

With your top break revolver and your 148 double ended wadcutter, I’d be loading 1.6 grains of Bullseye which is the low end of data from Lyman 3rd edition with the 141 grain boolit 358495. The estimated velocity for that is 510 fps. Lyman gives the max for that boolit as 2.4 grains Bullseye and estimated velocity of 720 fps.

If you seat it out long like Outpost75 recommends, I agree you could use another couple of tenths of Bullseye. The 38 S&W case is small so the pressure will move a lot with a little bit of change in case capacity/seating depth.

You want to use enough powder to consistently get the boolit out of the barrel. But stop there. It’s an antique gun with antique metallurgy in an antique design. It’d be great to shoot it some but leave it shootable for the next few generations too.
So are you saying that Outpost75’s suggestion to use 2-2.3gr Bullseye with WC seated king isn’t a good idea for my top-break?

[Tall]

I use three die set, Lee's brand.
They do size a bit small, about .356. But the expander sizes the inside of my Starline cases .358/9.
The hbwc slide in with not big tension, slight crimp to hold.

I did use .361 standard style bullets from Matt's. They had a bit more tension and shot well.

Some time ago I believe it was mentioned, 9mm Makarov dies maybe closer to this cartridge than some of the dies made for 38 S&W. At least the expander die

I have the three die set from Lee and the 38 Makarov FCD from Lee. I also have the .360" bullets from Matt's. You need those to fit the die set.

[mkj4him]

I have the three die set from Lee and the 38 Makarov FCD from Lee. I also have the .360" bullets from Matt's. You need those to fit the die set.
Does the 9mm Makarov Lee FCD work well on the 38 S&W case?
Will the Makaro sizer die and seater die do the correct job on the 38 S&W?

I was looking at ordering the Lee set but if they size small like the hornady die, that would be a No go.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Mjk4him,
Outpost75 is long seating a hollow based wadcutter.
You said yours is a double ended wadcutter.

Outpost75 gets more case capacity by long seating and a tad bit more by using a hollow based wadcutter.

My point is if you’re not using a hollow base and you’re not seating out long, then your case capacity is less and hence your powder charge needs to be less.

Also, I would baby your old top break and only shoot hard enough to consistently get the boolits out of the barrel. I think Outpost75 might be thinking a couple hundred fps more than I am.

Not saying he’s off base. He isn’t. If anything I’m a bit too conservative on my opinion.

[mkj4him]

I have a large amount of unique. What would be comparable load to the 2 gr Bullseye?
I’m seeing in a post, a max of 2.8 gr Unique in a top break.

[mkj4him]

Mjk4him,
Outpost75 is long seating a hollow based wadcutter.
You said yours is a double ended wadcutter.

Outpost75 gets more case capacity by long seating and a tad bit more by using a hollow based wadcutter.

My point is if you’re not using a hollow base and you’re not seating out long, then your case capacity is less and hence your powder charge needs to be less.

Also, I would baby your old top break and only shoot hard enough to consistently get the boolits out of the barrel. I think Outpost75 might be thinking a couple hundred fps more than I am.

Not saying he’s off base. He isn’t. If anything I’m a bit too conservative on my opinion.

I understand what you’re saying. Yes, I am seating the wad cutters out long. I understand the hollow base gives more volume and therefore less pressure.

[mkj4him]

I ordered a set of Lee dies. I’m hoping the 38 auto sizer die will size cases to the necessary larger size than the Hornady die. Has anyone had issues seating larger .360”-.361” bullets using the seater die?

I loaded a batch of test rounds using 158 (actual 154 gr) LSWC’s over Unique 2.0, 2.2 and 2.3 grains. Once I get around 600 fps I’ll stop. That is unless someone tells me I’m in dangerous territory with these loads in the top break.
I’m using a LabRadar. Funny thing is, the speeds are not always registered because of the low report level. LOL. I’m adjusting my positioning of the muzzle to fix that.
317152

[Randy Bohannon]

I had nothing but trouble with dies labeled 38 S/W ,it appears that die companies just relabel 38 Special and call it good enough. I contacted RCBS and they had me mail the dies and 5 pieces of brass fired from my Colt Police Positive. Got the dies back with a note saying they opened up the dies to .361” based on my fired brass. I couldn’t be happier with their response to the issue however they should be that diameter to start with. RCBS Cowboy dies are the closest to the correct dies available.

[mkj4him]

I had nothing but trouble with dies labeled 38 S/W ,it appears that die companies just relabel 38 Special and call it good enough. I contacted RCBS and they had me mail the dies and 5 pieces of brass fired from my Colt Police Positive. Got the dies back with a note saying they opened up the dies to .361” based on my fired brass. I couldn’t be happier with their response to the issue however they should be that diameter to start with. RCBS Cowboy dies are the closest to the correct dies available.
Were your RCBS dyes the cowboy variety? Those are plain steel correct? No carbide sizing ring? I can understand how they were able to open it up if that’s the case. Do you use sizing lube on your cases?

[Randy Bohannon]

Yes RCBS Cowboy dies are and they are steel with no carbide sizing ring.Yes on using sizing lube.I just read the note from RCBS and they polished the sizing die and shortened the expander die.

[mkj4him]

Yes RCBS Cowboy dies are and they are steel with no carbide sizing ring.Yes on using sizing lube.I just read the note from RCBS and they polished the sizing die and shortened the expander die.
Did they charge you?

[Randy Bohannon]

No charge for anything including shipping.

[Tall]

Does the 9mm Makarov Lee FCD work well on the 38 S&W case?
Will the Makarov sizer die and seater die do the correct job on the 38 S&W?


I am using the 9MM Makarov Lee FCD on 38 S&W because they are the same diameter. No idea on the other question you asked. The Lee die set for 38 S&W works for me. No idea on the other brands.

[mkj4him]

I was able to get my hands on two boxes of new production Smith and Wesson Performance Wheel Gun ammo for 38 S&W. Specs list as 146gr LRN at 685 fps (4” barrel.)
Is this ammo safe for use in my 38 DA Top Break?
317531
317532
317533

[Larry Gibson]

The SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. I pressure tested some Remington R-P factory [146 LRN, 2.2 gr flake powder] 5 years ago. The psi ran 16,300. Velocity out of my 3 3/16" barreled H&R revolver ran 655 fps. Older Winchester Lubaloy ran 556 fps and W-W SuperX ran 594 fps.

The newer Remington ammunition psi is unknown.

[mkj4him]

Rarely do I get listed velocities from factory ammo in my guns.