What is a "transfer"?

[John in WI]

I just had to send a revolver back to the factory for repair or replacement. Did it legally, by contacting an FFL who will ship and receive it back.
I've never done this before, so I was asking the FFL some questions. I was under the impression that an NICS background check was required to receive the pistol back. He told me this was not the case--as long as the person who dropped it off (ie, me) is the same person to pick it up.
Is that correct? I'm just curious how it works.

[TNsailorman]

You do not need an FFL to send a gun back to the factory for repair/replacement. You do not need to do another BATF form to receive it back. At least that was the way it was a couple of years ago when I had to send a revolver back to Ruger. I mailed it to them and they sent it back to my door.

[pietro]

.

It depend upon both your state's laws (which may require such), and the fact that GCA-68 (US Federal Law) specifically states that anyone can send a firearm to an FFL-holder (which the factory holds) and receive back the same firearm for a repair or customization w/o having to go through another NICS check.

However, if said firearm is replaced (different serial number), then it may be sent for a NICS check.


https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/atf-form-4473-required-when-gunsmith-returns-repaired-firearm

[Bmi48219]

Last time I sent a pistol back to the manufacturer for repair UPS picked it up at my home and returned it there too. I had to sign to receive it. Things may have changed in the past three years but as I understood it a transfer was only required if you were surrendering ownership to someone else.

[M-Tecs]

That is correct for Federal requirements. State laws vary. Legally an FFL is not required to ship to a manufacture for repair. The currently is finding a carrier that will ship it, so some find it easier to just us an FFL. I've done it once with Taurus and once with S&W. The S&W was about five years ago. They sent a prepaid shipping label and they paid for the return so it was free. With the Taurus I had to pay both ways. That was about 15 years ago.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/atf-form-4473-required-when-gunsmith-returns-repaired-firearm

https://www.taurususa.com/support/shipments-returns

[John in WI]

Hmm, well then maybe it's something particular for Rock Island. They were very specific about giving it to an FFL, and shipping from there. I also read that if the factory replaces it, with exactly the same model, that it was also not considered a transfer.

[M-Tecs]

Hmm, well then maybe it's something particular for Rock Island. They were very specific about giving it to an FFL, and shipping from there. I also read that if the factory replaces it, with exactly the same model, that it was also not considered a transfer.

Just a guess but it appears they don't want to have to deal with the CA style State requirements.

Rock Island Armory Warranty RMA Form

https://559399.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/559399/RMA%20Form%20January%202023%20Fillable.pdf

[John in WI]

This was on the NSSF website: Finally, if the defective firearm is sent back to the manufacturer for warranty (or non-warranty) repair and the manufacturer chooses to replace that firearm with one of the same kind and type, 27 CFR 478.147 allows the transfer of that firearm to the individual who originally brought the defective firearm in for repair without a Form 4473 or background check. Both the acquisition and the disposition of the replacement firearm must be recorded in your acquisition and disposition records, however.

I guess either the repaired, or replaced revolver just gets recorded locally, and returned to me. I was just curious how it all works. Obviously want to be careful and 100% legal.

[405grain]

Yep. Kommiefornia doesn't just ruin it for us poor unfortunate residents, they take a dump in the swimming pool so that they can share the misery with everybody else.

[John in WI]

What's the deal with Cali? You have to jump through some different hoops?

[TD1886]

The anti gunners, the Democrats, and the anti gun Republics are makeing a HUGE push right now to strip our guns from us. That terrible gun ban in Illinois when to the state's supreme court and they upheld the ban. Looks like the residents are going to have to take it to the Supreme Court. Also the ban that Biden (Obama) put on 80% guns was upheld and back in effect so that too is going to have to go to a higher court.

I say Lexington Bridge and Fort Sumter.

[LAGS]

One of the reasons I moved out of California was.
The gun laws are so detailed that it is best if you hire someone that is a " Hopi " indian to do anything with your guns.
Remember the dance that Hopi Indians do.
That shows you that they are the only ones who can jump thru hoops enough to satisfy the states requirements.

[W.R.Buchanan]

John in WI:" Where are you getting your info? All of it is wrong! You don't have to go thru an FFL to ship a gun for repair to any one, and you can receive it back without any BS as well. If the Mfg. Replaces the gun it will have a different SN and then you will have to DROS it again cuz it is a different gun. ( 4473 the Hunter Biden Form!)

DROS in CA runs anywhere form $65 to $100 so it kind of matters that you know the law. And You don't find out about the Laws by listening to your buddies or idiots at gun shops. You find out by Talking to your AG's office. And make them tell you EXACTLY what you need to know. Also make sure to record the call because if they won't tell you what you need to know, you are not liable if you get it wrong and get caught, and you've got the evidence that you tried to comply and they refused to help.. They are legally required to explain a Law to you because they are the top LE Office in your state. We are not all lawyers,,,Thank God!!!

Also if an outfit misunderstands the laws in your state and won't ship to you or whatever. Don't deal with them, they are idiots and you shouldn't deal with idiots because it makes you stoopid!

Randy

[John in WI]

I was told--very specifically--by Rock Island armory that they would only accept the return through an FFL. They clearly said it would be refused and returned if I sent it myself. So I went the FFL route to make them happy. I was just curious what the return process was. From reading, it looks like as long as I am the one to pick it up, it is simply recorded in a log and returned to me. I was just trying to figure out what the law actually said about all this.

[John in WI]

I'm not sure what DROS is? that's a Cali thing? I'm in the midwest.
Also, the person I spoke with is the owner of the shop and FFL holder.

[Texas by God]

Perhaps RIA being headquartered in New York has something to do with it?


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[sparky45]

Correct me if I'm wrong; I thought the Supreme's struck down the 80% percent uppers confirming they are in fact Illegal.

[John in WI]

I didn't know that. I didn't even look. They sent a shipping label, and I handed it off to the shop. It's not a big deal, I was just curious how the rules work. I was half-heartedly thinking of pursuing an FFL. In my case, it seems like a heck of a lot of work I don't have time for.

[pworley1]

You do not need an FFL to send a gun back to the factory for repair/replacement. You do not need to do another BATF form to receive it back. At least that was the way it was a couple of years ago when I had to send a revolver back to Ruger. I mailed it to them and they sent it back to my door.

This is how it works in my state.

[poppy42]

You do not need an FFL to send a gun back to the factory for repair/replacement. You do not need to do another BATF form to receive it back. At least that was the way it was a couple of years ago when I had to send a revolver back to Ruger. I mailed it to them and they sent it back to my door.
Are you sure Ruger did not send you a shipping label?

[poppy42]

Well I don’t know about other states but I can tell you here in Virginia you have to ship it through an FFL unless the manufacturer send you a shipping label then you simply package it up put the label on and take it to either UPS or FedEx which Evelyn company the manufacturer deals with! And I know this for a fact because I just dealt with it less than a year ago! Incidentally the gun was replaced, new sr it was shipped back to me! No paperwork required. Like I said and have no idea how it’s done in other states

[M-Tecs]

Virginia appears to not have any State restrictions. https://palmettostatearmory.com/shipping-restrictions-by-state.html

If that is correct only Federal Laws apply:

Transferring/Shipping/Possession of Firearms:
4. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to an individual who resides in a different State?
What if the individual resides within the same State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an
individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person
to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must
be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or
she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a
NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov
and http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception
from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. For
example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception
is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition
by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident
who inherits a firearm under a will or by State law upon death of the owner. See 18 U.S.C. §
922(a)(5)(A).
In regard to transferring firearms between individuals residing in the same state, any person may
sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he or she does not
know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing
firearms under Federal law. Please note that there may be State and local laws that regulate
firearm transactions. Any person considering acquiring or transferring a firearm should contact
his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local
firearms restrictions. A list of State Attorney General contact numbers may be found at
http://www.naag.org/.
5. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State
where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be
- 5 -
addressed to the owner of the firearm “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching
its destination, persons other than the owner of the firearm must not open the package or take
possession of the firearm. The out-of-State resident is encouraged to place the package in a safe
and secure location until the owner of the firearm is available to take physical possession.
6. May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a
licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if
the shipment is across State lines?
Any person may ship firearms directly to a licensee in any State, with no requirement for another
licensee to ship the firearm. However, handguns and other concealable firearms are not mailable
through the United States Postal Service and must be shipped via private common or contract
carrier (18 U.S.C. § 1715). The USPS and private common or contract carriers may also have
additional restrictions on firearms shipments by unlicensed persons. Firearms shipped to FFLs
for repair or any other lawful purpose may be returned to the person from whom received
without transferring the firearm through an FFL in the recipient’s State of residence. FFLs may
also return a replacement firearm of the same kind and type to the person from whom received
(18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(2)(A)). An ATF Form 4473 is required for the return of the firearm, except
in instances when a firearm is delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing, and the same firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom
received (27 CFR § 478.124(a))

[bedbugbilly]

"Perhaps RIA being headquartered in New York has something to do with it?"


New York is the "New Kalifornia Republik" isn't it?

[2152hq]

NYS handgun laws are to blame for the Mfg'r requiring that the gun be sent to them by an FFL.

In NYS, an FFL also needs a NYS 'Handgun License' to do business in Handguns.
Buy and sell them you need a NYS Dealers License
Do gunsmithing on Handguns,,you (also) need a NYS Gunsmiths License.

These are both forms of a NYS Pistol Permit and are good for 3yrs at which time they have to be renewed.

The NYS Pistol Laws state that any NYS Handgun Dealer OR NYS (Handgun) Licensed Gunsmith can ONLY receive a handgun for transfer, resale, repair from:
#1..Someone with a valid NYS P/P
#2 ..Someone with a Valid FFL AND a valid NYS Handgun Dealer and/or Gunsmithing License
#3..If the handgun is recv'd from Out of State for transfer, sale or repair,,The firearm can ONLY be recv'd from another valid FFL in that State.

So the orig Mfr is in NYS.
They have an FFL (probably an 07FFL Manufacturers)
They also have a NYS Handgun Dealers Lic as well as a NYS Gunsmithing license to Deal in and also do Repairs on their products.

#3 above is the reason the Mfg'r demands that the gun comes to them from another FFL.

There is paperwork the NY FFL must fill out and send back to the NYSP (P12 Form) which shows who the gun came from. It must include the Out of State's FFL# in the case of an
OOS acquisition.
The Mfg'r will send the repaired gun back to the same FFL.
Being a Repair, there should be no 4473/NICS for the customer to rec'v their pistol back. That's standard Fed Law.

If the Pistol in unrepairable and a replacement of the same type is given in exchange', there is still no 4473/NICS for the customer to go thru.
The Factory records will show the returned and replacement pistols.
In this case so will the FFL's log book that orig sent the gun in for the customer.

No 4473/NICS is necessary as the gun is a replacement of the same type/kind for one already owned.


If there is a State/Local registration issue where the ser# must be changed on some document, then the paperwork from the factory and or the FFL will have to be used to do so.
This sort of thing happens quite often especially with todays not so great quality firearms.
50yrs as an FFL & NYS Handgun Dealer & Gunsmith license holder in this State and you get to know the regs pretty well.

BATF clarified the replacement gun paperwork question when it issued this:
https://search.atf.gov/search?query=replacement+firearm&op=Search&affiliate=atf

They actually clarified that same question way back in 1974 with this Ruling #(19)74-20
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1974-20-disposition-replacement-firearms/download

[Shawlerbrook]

Agree with 2152hq. I think this whole thread sums up the fact the the anti gun side is winning. The confusion is accomplishing their goal of suppressing firearms transactions. After the NYS SafeAct, many dealers like Williams Gunsight Co., Bud’s etc. would just not ship guns, legal or not, into NYS. Even the enforcement officials cannot( or will not) give you a straight answer. And for those that are still in “free” states that say, correctly, they would never live in Ca., NY, NJ, Ma., etc., if the 2024 vote goes bad, that will be the law of the land.

[kend]

While it is legal for an individual to send a gun for repair the problem is the shipping part, 8 months or so ago UPS and Fedex changed their shipping policies and now require any shipments of guns to be done through a "firearms approved shipping account" and one of the things required for that account is an FFL. While an individual can ship a long gun through the PO a handgun can only be shipped FFL to FFL. I don't know if the factory sending a shipping label will get around the requirement today. One option for an individual is to use ship outdoors.com, they had their account approved for shipping guns form individuals and evidently that satisfied UPS so that's what I use even though I'm an FFL.

[Shawlerbrook]

I would imagine the factory or gunsmith sending a shipping label meets the requirements as that label is processed on their account.

[David2011]

Not related to shipping; in New Mexico when "universal background checks were implemented. That meant that anyone handling a firearm that doesn't belong to them is a transfer and requires a background check. I was a Hunter Ed instructor there when the state told the Hunter Ed groups to turn their functional firearms over to the Department of Game and Fish because nobody could handle them without a background check every time someone different touched the firearm and another background check when the instructor took it back. It eliminated live fire training completely. Until the law was amended, dealers couldn't even let customers handle firearms.