Accuracy- what to try next?

[pharmpoke]

I've slugged my scoped super blackhawk hunter in 44mag at .430 and sized the 250gr rcbs swc (they weigh 260gr- straight wheel weights) lubed with 50/50 to .431. Then used 2400 powder with loads from 18.5-21gr with velocity 1250-1450 fps. Best 6 shot group at 75yds was 6 inches with lightest load, the heavier loads really opened up and sprayed them everywhere. I use winchester large pistol primers, culled bullets well, used winchester brass, have good sandbag rests, no leading at all. My question is- what changes/variations in alloy, powder choice, velocity, primer, bullet design, etc. are most likely to tighten groups up? The load will be used for hunting mule deer/antelope out to 100-125 yds. It shoots 240gr Hornady XTP's about 6" groups at 100yds. I'd like to do better and I know every gun is unique, but I'd like to know what changes are likely to make the biggest difference. thanks

[R.C. Hatter]

A 260 gr. .44 bullet at 1250 f.p.s. will kill any deer at 100 yards or less, provided the shot is put in the right place. You don't say what bullet you are using. Also, you make no mention of your experience as a heavy caliber pistol shooter. It is one thing to shoot into 2 and 1/2" at 25 yards
with a rimfire, or .38 Spl., but its quite something else to bring up your skill with a big gun. It
takes patience and a lot of practice. My advice is to try other powders i.e. H-110, along with other primers & see if that helps, as you practice.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
+1 on the try some other powders. 2400 is a good powder. Some revolvers prefer something else for the BEST accuracy with certain boolits. My 8 " Dan wesson shoots good with 2400 BUT really likes Win. 296 with a 240 grain boolit.
Practice, Practice, PRACTICE ! I personally would be shooting at 1200fps until I knew for sure I was not the problem. With that scope you should be able to call every shot at 75 yards. High,low, I woobled, I flinched, jerked the trigger, It´s cold and I am shivering, my eyes were closed... Be honest with yourself and then you can work with yourself.
There are many variables that can change 6" groups down to 3" groups.
You could try a differnt lube. You could try shooting those boolits as cast. You could have a loose scope or one that is not up to 44 mag...... These are some symptoms I have off and on.
But finding perfection for that revolver may be a long road.... patience and PRACTICE will get you there.
Mike God Bless you

[Bret4207]

What did you slug? The barrel or cylinders? You may need a slightly fatter boolit or a different alloy.

[44man]

I hate to say it but I never get cutting edge accuracy with a semi wad cutter in any of my calibers.

[Willbird]

Also if you are using a 2 or more cavity mold, try sorting the bullets for which cavity they came from. In the one handgun that I have that will shoot sub 2" at 50 yards from a ransom rest bullets from a 6 cavity lee mold shoot 4x the group size that ones from a 1 cavity lyman do.

Also check how much bullet pull you are getting from your loading dies, a cast bullet is more demanding than a jacketed bullet that the bullet be a tight fit in the case neck, many people polish their expander ball smaller to get a tighter fit.

Bill

[BABore]

I have the same gun. My groove slugged at 0.4295 and the cylinder throats at 0.4315. I also did just a muzzle slug and found that I had 0.0007" of thread constriction in the groove diameter. This was firelapped out so the bore is nicely tapered and the final groove diameter is now 0.4303. I size boolits to the throats at 0.4315".

I use several boolits including a custom version of the 429421 and 429244. Both were cast from 50/50 WW-Pb. They were shot air cooled at 10 bhn and water dropped at 22 bhn. Powders tried were 2400 and WW 296. CCI 300"s for the 2400 and CCI 350's for the 296 (yes 44Man, I tried the 300's with the 296 and they didn't shoot as good [smilie=b: ).

With all boolits, and all powders, this gun shot better with 10 bhn boolits. The top loads were max charges of WW 296. Lube is very important for accuracy on top end loads. I would suggest the first thing you do is try another lube. LBT, Caranuba Red (made softer IMO), Beartooth, or similar. Never had much luck or use for Felix lube (sorry Felix) ,(in your eye 44Man):-D, but it's worth a try. I have tried 50/50 Alox-BW on the same loads and they're not near as accurate in my guns. On a good day, I can hold my best loads to 1 to 1 1/2" at 50 yards. The gun is surely capable of better.

[Limey]

Hi Pharmpoke,

I would recommend you let another shooter have a go with your gun and ammo first.....preferably somebody you know can shoot a bit.....same ammo, same range, same everything but you!.....this'll cost you nothing.

If their groupings are the same/very similar you can eliminate 'you' from being the root of the wide spreading.....

If their groupings are better....you need more practise.....

After eliminating the shooter as a variable you are into spending some money on other variables....powder, bullets, primers, lubes etc etc

.......just my 2 centimes worth.

Safe shooting,

Limey

[44man]

I have the same gun. My groove slugged at 0.4295 and the cylinder throats at 0.4315. I also did just a muzzle slug and found that I had 0.0007" of thread constriction in the groove diameter. This was firelapped out so the bore is nicely tapered and the final groove diameter is now 0.4303. I size boolits to the throats at 0.4315".

I use several boolits including a custom version of the 429421 and 429244. Both were cast from 50/50 WW-Pb. They were shot air cooled at 10 bhn and water dropped at 22 bhn. Powders tried were 2400 and WW 296. CCI 300"s for the 2400 and CCI 350's for the 296 (yes 44Man, I tried the 300's with the 296 and they didn't shoot as good [smilie=b: ).

With all boolits, and all powders, this gun shot better with 10 bhn boolits. The top loads were max charges of WW 296. Lube is very important for accuracy on top end loads. I would suggest the first thing you do is try another lube. LBT, Caranuba Red (made softer IMO), Beartooth, or similar. Never had much luck or use for Felix lube (sorry Felix) ,(in your eye 44Man):-D, but it's worth a try. I have tried 50/50 Alox-BW on the same loads and they're not near as accurate in my guns. On a good day, I can hold my best loads to 1 to 1 1/2" at 50 yards. The gun is surely capable of better.
I can't argue because I use Fed primers, never tried the 350's but I did try WW listed for standard or mag loads and got great accuracy. Trouble is, I don't remember what gun!!!!
But you did get the same results with Alox lube I get, less accuracy. The other lubes you list ARE good too.

[cbrick]

pharmpoke, welcome to castboolits. :drinks:

You mentioned your groove diameter and that's good except it's useless info "IF" you don't know what your throats measure. You must size your boolits to a mild snug fit in the throats. The groove diameter is only usefull in knowing that it's at or smaller than throat diameters.

Several other things can also affect long range revolver accuracy such as the condidtion and shape of the forcing cone, barrel cylinder gap, timing, lock-up, uniform brass length & crimp, bullet seated long enough to be chambered with the front driving band properly sized and chambered inside the throat, consistent throat diameters. Brass condition can also play a big role here, the more times a piece of brass is fired the more work hardened it becomes. No two pieces of brass will work harden the same so bullet grip can and will vary a lot between shots, this not only can cause velocity variations but variations in the powders burn characteristics and thus shot placement.

Long range revolver to 200m is just about all I shoot and accuracy starts with a good throat fit but don't ignore the other things.

Rick

[jack19512]

I have been following this thread with interest as I am in about the same boat. I don't seem to be improving any and think it is time to try something else. So far the only lube I have tried is LLA and think it is time for a change of lube.

[dubber123]

I'll suggest a couple other things, could it be the scope, and how is the trigger?. Unless you got VERY lucky, the factory Ruger trigger is good for at least doubling your group size. Going from a creaky, hard trigger, to one with a clean break is a real eye opener.

A bad or poorly mounted scope and all is lost. Have you checked for Parallax? Lay the gun in sandbags, and aim it at the bullseye. Without touching the gun, move your head around. If the crosshairs appear to move, you have likely found your problem, Parallax. Good luck.

[pharmpoke]

I can just push a .430 sized bullet through all 6 cylinder throats by hand, so I have not actually slugged all cylinder throats, but if I understand correctly they should be fine shooting .431 if I can push a .430 by hand. The scope is a new fixed 2X Burris mounted correctly with all fittings snug. Haven't checked for parallax problems, but should it be a problem with this scope and if so, what do you do about it? The trigger does creap a little; I've got some better (well tuned S&W 686) and some worse (H&R 22 special), so I understand the trigger part of the deal. I use a 2 bullet rcbs mold, so I can try sorting bullets from each cavity. I can try some other lube- will the black moly lyman lube they sent with the lubrisizer be anything worth trying? I can't find anything in my books for W296 with a plain based 260gr lead (wheel weight) bullet- everything is listed for 240gr jacketed or gas checked bullets , so give me some recommendations. I messed around with grip and grip consistency today at the range and can see the importance of the grip. Do you want to just let it "roll" in your hand with a looser and less rigid grip, or try to be more rigid in the wrist and elbow? Keep the advice coming.

[44man]

Don't let it roll. your grip should still be the same coming down out of recoil as it started. No "death grip" though, just nice and snug.
With a 260 gr boolit you can go from 21 to maybe 23 gr of 296, even to over 24 if you go up slowly. I would say 22 to 22.5 will show accuracy. If not change the boolit.
If a boolit will not shoot, dump it. Putting a diamond in the nose of a bad boolit will not improve it.

[Bret4207]

Okay, .430 boolits will go through the throats. That tells you that .430 boolits will go through the throats, that's all it tells you. It doesn't tell you what size the throats are or more importantly if the throats are larger or smaller than the barrel. If you want to do this right then you need to do one of 2 things- either really slug the throats and the barrel and determine what size they are and if, God forbid, the barrel is larger the the throats and if there are any barrel constrictions. Then you can size to the barrel, firelap any constriction out and go from there. The alternative is the trust the barrel is smaller than the throats and use the largest diameter boolit you can easily chamber. IOW, if you can chamber a .432 boolit then use it and see what happens. Using a .431 boolit in a gun that might actually have throats that are .431+ isn't going to bring home any trophies.

The right way is to get those cylinders scrupulously clean, including running 4/0 steel wool in the throats to remove any lead/copper build up and slug the cylinders individually. Hopefully they are all within .0005 or so of each other. The do the same to the barrel. With luck the cylinder throats will be +.001 or a little more larger than the barrel and the barrel will be smooth all the way through, no tight spots. Then you size to the throats. If your throats are .430 and the barrel is .429 you size your boolit to .432 and see how it goes, assuming they chamber. If they won't chamber you either go to .431 and hope it works or neck turn the brass or have the cylinder throats opened or go to a different alloy or a different design or a combo of those things. You can also juggle loads to try and get one that has a pressure curve that pops the boolit in the butt as it enters the forcing cone and causes it to obturate enough to fit the barrel. There are plenty of options at this point.

[Lloyd Smale]

i could give you advice on how to fine tune a decent load but if there spraying that bad and your certain it isnt you because of increased recoil i would consider trying a different mold. Some bullets just dont agree with some guns. I have two go to loads with the 44s. One is 20 grains of 2400 the other is 22 grains of 4227. If im looking for a light load i load 9 grains of unique. If i dont get at least 2 inch at 25 yards from the start i dont even bother tweaking a load i just switch to a different bullet. For load work i like 25 yards. I know some dont but i find it takes some of the human error out of the equation. If im having a bad day a good load can look not so good at 75 yards. I work up my loads at 25 then when i find a couple good ones i take them out to 50 then a 100. It also takes away the need to be looking in a spotting scope after every time you pull the trigger.

[cbrick]

pharmpoke, here is a post I just made in the thread "Ruger Redhawk & hunting accuracy".

This is another variable that could well help you shrink those 6 inch groups. it may or may not be the load or the gun but this . . .


The vast majority of my shooting is long range revolver out to 200 meters. Al could have well have hit the nail (and your problem) on the head.

The seven most critical things in long range revolver accuracy:

1> Grip
2> Sight picture
3> Grip
4> Trigger control
5> Grip
6> Follow through
7> Grip

Change any of this even slightly from shot to shot and you will not shoot groups, you will shoot patterns. Location of hand on the grip, any change in finger tension, even slightly, any change in grip during follow through or worse, a lack of follow through.

The reason is very simple; revolvers have a slow lock time (compared to bolt guns) and a slow barrel time. While the bullet is still in the barrel and the gun is recoiling ANY change, even a very slight change in how the revolver recoils will change the position of the muzzle at the instant the bullet exits the muzzle. It changes the muzzle position up, down, left or right with even slight changes in grip. Single actions are even worse; they call them plow handles for a reason, this style/design of grip accentuates (multiplies) grip inconsistencies but don't get the idea that grip isn't important on double actions.

You could well have the same grip inconsistencies shooting at say 7 yards but the problem is much harder or impossible to detect at this range. You'll get say a 2 inch group at 7 yards but the same gun; same load, same bench rest will shoot patterns at 50 yards because of the same grip inconsistencies used at 7 yards. The longer the range the more grip inconsistencies will become apparent and the larger the pattern will be.

When I am shooting a long range revolver match after every single shot I remove the revolver from my shooting hand with the other hand and replace it in exactly the same place it was on the previous shot. When I replace the revolver in my shooting hand if it doesn’t feel EXACTLY the same I do it again until it is the same. (this not a rapid fire match) It may not be apparent at first but under recoil the revolvers grip DOES move (change position) in your hand. The best sight picture or even scope will not shrink your revolver group if your grip is inconsistent (even slightly) from shot to shot.

Rick

Keep shooting and keep trying, the shooting and the experimentation are a big part of the fun. Keep us posted.

Rick