Looks like another loser from Winchester

[dverna]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/07/10/21-sharp-rimfire-cartridge-winchester/

I cannot wait to see the gun rags go ga-ga over this.

[Dancing Bear]

Yet caliber? Why?

[Texas by God]

I doubt that it will be as successful as the 5mm Remington Magnum…….


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[NSB]

I doubt that it will be as successful as the 5mm Remington Magnum…….


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And ammo will be a bit harder to get. Seriously, I can’t think of a thing it has to offer over current rimfire selections that is really any kind of improvement. I think I’ll pass.

[Grayone]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/07/10/21-sharp-rimfire-cartridge-winchester/

I cannot wait to see the gun rags go ga-ga over this.

I think they need to 'Barney Fife' this one and nip it in the bud...

[Handloader109]

"It'll be easy to change from a 22Lr to the 21 loser by just changing barrels"
just really? The question is why? 22LR, 22WMR, 22mag, 22TCM (center fire) why another

[Martin Luber]

Yup. Try to get shells 5 years from now.

[Txcowboy52]

Like others have said, I see no advantage to this . I chuckled at the comment , as easy to change as changing the barrel. Just another way to fleece the flock.

[45DUDE]

I'll probably stick to my Remington bolts. I have enough 1700fps ammo laying around + my Marlin mag that gets shot very little.

[HWooldridge]

Like the old saying goes, "A solution to a problem that doesn't exist."

[challenger_i]

By chance, did anyone read the comments at the bottom of the article?
At first glance, I agree that this round is an answer to a question no one asked, but the information
gleaned from the comments does present a viable reason for this cartridge's development.

[Recycled bullet]

I read the article. What's the point?

[6thtexas]

Winchester might ought to improve the rimfire products they currently sell. I have had problems with their 22LR stuff for a while.

That new cartridge will be expensive, especially when some won't fire.

[dverna]

Does anyone think that it costs 4 times more to make .22 Mag than .22 LR? Yet they charge that much more for a round that has been around for a very long time with many guns chambered for it.

This round needs a bullet that cannot be used in another caliber. Anything "special" translates to more expensive.

There are plenty of RF options to address any real need. Some gun rag will shoot enough groups to get a 3/4" group at 100 yards and the race will be on. There are a lot of dumb people in the world.

[35 Rem]

Sounds like about the dumbest idea I've heard in a while. The gun companies seem to be completely out of touch with what shooters want. Also they seem to think people are made of money and that most gun buyers are enthusiasts. Reality is that most people who buy guns want CHEAP. The ammo for this thing is going to always be non-existent and ridiculously expensive if you do ever find a box of it. And you can't make a rimfire equal a 222 Remington no matter how many stars you wish on. Everything you can realistically do with a rimfire can be done with either the 22LR or 22Mag. If you want more get a 22 Hornet.

What is annoying is that this will just further dilute the manufacturing capacity of the ammo makers that could be used to produce ammo for cartridges that already exist and are back ordered.

[elmacgyver0]

If they want to create a new RF round, why not a couple old ones and call them new.
Maybe .25 Stevens RF and .32 RF.

[Abert Rim]

What E.L. said. I think a re-introduced .25 Stevens would sell.

[Daekar]

Is this insurance against a lead free future?

The more I think about this, the more I believe this is the reason. I can't say that I've ever seen a heeled copper bullet. Some bean counter at the Winchester ammo offices did the math and figured it would be cheaper to build new equipment for a funky bullet diameter than a new cartridge case, and this is what they'll push if the greenies get their way and lead bullets are banned.

It doesn't make sense now, because today's environment isn't what it was designed for. It's like the folks in big sky country who look at the 35 Rem or 350 Legend and wonder what we're smoking over here out east... conditions are different, so different things make sense.

There is the minor detail that it's possible somebody will put together a cost-effective way to manufacture solid copper heeled bullets that work with all the existing 22LR guns out there (don't see why it shouldn't be possible...) and then the market appeal for this would dry up almost immediately. Gonna be honest, the price difference between this round and lead-free 22LR would have to be pretty stark for the ROI of replacing all my 22LR guns to make sense. I'm guessing it would take many years just to make up the price of one of them. Well, maybe not my little Kel-Tec, but I'd be loath to give it up anyway...

[dale2242]

I don`t understand the negativity about this round.
It may or may not be a success.
I`m sure there have been a lot of new rounds that have been chided.
Let`s wait and see.
If it`s not for you, why run it down?
What`s to be gained by that?

[Gtek]

It may be one of the last few remaining on the shelves "Next Time".

[6thtexas]

What E.L. said. I think a re-introduced .25 Stevens would sell.

This would be good, provided they would go off every time. Quality of Winchester RF ammunition is not good.

[deces]

I have come to believe that if success is the desired outcome, then make it AR compatible. Otherwise it's not worth trying.

[BNE]

I read the comments attached to the article. Why can you make a copper “heeled bullet”? I think that would be easier than a new cartridge that no one makes a gun for yet.

Just me. I think gun companies come up with “different” and “different” sells.

[country gent]

Just wondering what was said when the 30-03, 45/70, 308, 223, were first introduced

[HWooldridge]

The 45-70 was supposedly criticized for being a “small bore”…

[Valley-Shooter]

Some you guys are not looking at the long term picture.
Lead free requirements are on the rise. Lead free healed bullets have been a failure. This is the replacement. No change to the exterior if the case, so it will fit all the current actions and magazines. You just need a slightly smaller barrel. That's not a problem for manufactures, they just order a different size and keep making guns.

[dverna]

Some you guys are not looking at the long term picture.
Lead free requirements are on the rise. Lead free healed bullets have been a failure. This is the replacement. No change to the exterior if the case, so it will fit all the current actions and magazines. You just need a slightly smaller barrel. That's not a problem for manufactures, they just order a different size and keep making guns.

I have heard of good results with the CCI lead free .22LR.

But if the morons ever talk about banning lead .22’s I will buy 100k rounds and not worry about it.

In any case, there are too many .22’s for manufacturers to abandon the market. And not many .22’s are worth relining or rebarreling to a new round. The days of $.05/rd may end for those who do not plan ahead.

[uscra112]

Some you guys are not looking at the long term picture.
Lead free requirements are on the rise. Lead free healed bullets have been a failure. This is the replacement. No change to the exterior if the case, so it will fit all the current actions and magazines. You just need a slightly smaller barrel. That's not a problem for manufactures, they just order a different size and keep making guns.

Finally somebody got it right. It's a .22 LR case with a bullet that fits inside instead of being heeled. Trivial manufacturing changes in the ammo plant, no change to the rifles except bore size and chamber reamer.

[M-Tecs]

It's about time the design from 1857 gets an update. Time will tell how successful it will be. If the cost is on par with the standard 22LR it will do very well. The more the per round cost is the less successful it will be.

[Thundarstick]

I've wondered for a long time why we haven't already gone to this cartridge! I'm in to buy the first one CZ makes!

[dverna]

Dreamland my friends.

Did a search on Ammoseek.
Price of .22 LR is $.05 ea for Federal HP's
Price of .22 Mag is $.21 ea for Federal
Price of .17 HM2 is $.16 ea
Price of .17 HMR is $.25 ea

I predict this new round will come in at $.12-15 each. There is a need for affordable plinking ammunition and this new round will not be affordable. Production quantities will be low. There are over 2 billion .22 LR rounds produced a year. That is why .22's are cheap.

.21 Sharps launches a 25 gr bullet at 1725 fps. The 5mm Remington sent a 30 gr bullet at 2400 fps and it failed. Why will this succeed?

It is a catch-22 (pardon the pun). If there is not sufficient volume, manufacturing costs go up. If selling price is much higher than the .22 LR, most people will not buy it. There has been plenty of time for the .17 RF's to "take off" and net lower pricing but it has not happened...why?

I do not own a .17 RF and got rid of the .22 Mag due to ammunition costs and better options. A brick of .22's for plinking is $25 at current market prices. That is hard to beat. And the .223 beats the RF's for killing varmints.

People who want more than a .22LR and do not reload, have already moved to the current RF offerings. I don't see where this cartridge fits in. I reload .223's for not much more than .17 HMR's. It would be silly to buy a new .17 or .21 and scope for $800-1000 to save $.15/shot and get reduced performance. I do not kill 100's of critters a year like some people must. I doubt many do.

Lastly, people complained when .22's were $40-50/brick. Many moved to air guns. With .22's now at $25/500, I don't see many folks shooting a brick of .21's at $75 over the weekend.

One good thing is that if you have a 10/22 it should be an easy barrel swap. $200 plus the cost of ammunition to try it out. That seems like a better option than buying a new .21 rifle that may wind up like the 5mm Remington.

[gypsyman]

Guess they have to keep coming out with something new to keep the troops happy. I'm happy with what I've got, keeps me busy casting and reloading, don't need another iron in the fire.

[Digital Dan]

Dreamland my friends.


Price of .17 HM2 is $.16 ea




People who want more than a .22LR and do not reload, have already moved to the current RF offerings. I don't see where this cartridge fits in. I reload .223's for not much more than .17 HMR's. It would be silly to buy a new .17 or .21 and scope for $800-1000 to save $.15/shot and get reduced performance. I do not kill 100's of critters a year like some people must. I doubt many do.



Maybe those that don't reload need to examine that pastime.

Perfectly amazing what range of performance can be milked out of a reloading bench and a .22 Hornet. Take it a step further and cast some bullets for the lower velocity realm...

[uscra112]

We don't understand people who don't reload, because we do. I just spent a weekend with a guy who doesn't even reload for his 6.5 Creedmore. He doesn't shoot it much. It's sighted in and his next shot will take a deer. Busy guy, no time in his life to take up reloading, although I've prodded him. It's a different mindset entirely.

According to Stevens catalogs from the 1890s, the .25 Stevens rimfire was developed because of demand from people who didn't want to reload their .25-20.

I'm sure the .21 Sharps will be priced high now because early adopters will pay any price, as Apple has shown with their whole product line. It can come down eventually because the mfg. process is so similar to .22 LR.

[HWooldridge]

We don't understand people who don't reload, because we do. I just spent a weekend with a guy who doesn't even reload for his 6.5 Creedmore. He doesn't shoot it much. It's sighted in and his next shot will take a deer. Busy guy, no time in his life to take up reloading, although I've prodded him. It's a different mindset entirely.

According to Stevens catalogs from the 1890s, the .25 Stevens rimfire was developed because of demand from people who didn't want to reload their .25-20.

I'm sure the .21 Sharps will be priced high now because early adopters will pay any price, as Apple has shown with their whole product line. It can come down eventually because the mfg. process is so similar to .22 LR.

Most people who hunt do not reload. It wasn’t enormously popular 50 years ago and has gotten less so over time. Of all the folks I know who are active shooters, which is probably close to 100 - only two reload. Serious target shooters will probably always do it, so long as components are available.

[mdatlanta]

By chance, did anyone read the comments at the bottom of the article?
At first glance, I agree that this round is an answer to a question no one asked, but the information
gleaned from the comments does present a viable reason for this cartridge's development.

+1 Suggest reading the comments at the end of the article for some thoughtful reasons this cartridge may actually be of some practical use.

[popper]

Possibly for non-lead bullets? Main reason 22lr is so accurate is the heeled bullet. Fills the throat so the bullet isn't damaged when fired.
Harder to do (cost) for a copper bullet.

[M-Tecs]

Per the article it uses a standard 22LR case with a non-heeled bullet the size of the 22LR case ID. That should hold costs down considerably. The 17's and 5mm Rem are bottle necked cases and the 22 Mag is a unique case size. That increase costs.

This one will come down to cost and marketing. The 6.5 Creedmoor was a major yawn until the marketing geniuses started pushing the PRS games on TV. If this cartridge (due to better bullets) become the rimfire PRS darling it will take off the same and the 6.5 and the 6 Creedmoor.

Will the 21 Sharp ever be as cheap a low end 22LR? Probably not. For equal accuracy levels between the high end 22LR and 21 Sharps my guess is the 21 Sharps will be cheaper for the same or better performance.

Eley Tenex EPS Ammunition 22 Long Rifle 40 Grain Lead Flat Nose is currently $25.99 per 50 at Midway https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1392140858/

RWS R100 22LR Box 50 $23.95 sale $19.95 https://freelandssports.com/product/rws-r100-22lr-box-50/

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/accuracy-and-the-22-long-rifle/326553

https://www.ssusa.org/content/match-grade-22-lr-ammo-roundup-for-2023/

[Digital Dan]

Another option is explained in the following link. Cost for a loaded round (primer/powder/lead) is about 4 cents/round based on the costs of my components when purchased. Fact that they can be reloaded suggests that the options menu is limited only by one's imagination.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14251051/1

[Daekar]

Another option is explained in the following link. Cost for a loaded round (primer/powder/lead) is about 4 cents/round based on the costs of my components when purchased. Fact that they can be reloaded suggests that the options menu is limited only by one's imagination.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14251051/1

I don't understand how the total cost can come in that low if you're using a centerfire primer instead of a rimfire case. I haven't seen primers for less than $.08 in ages, and most of them are $.10 or more. That means I can buy more than one entire 22LR cartridge for the cost of a single primer, and it doesn't require me to spend time casting, coating, sizing, and loading. Have I missed something?

I confess that I didn't read the entire 32 page thread, so apologies if that was explained in there somewhere.

[uscra112]

That link is six years old.

[nicholst55]

I will watch how the whole .21 Sharp (not Sharps) thing unfolds. It will be particularly interesting to see what rifles are introduced in this caliber - whether they are modest-priced plinkers, or higher-end target rifles. Ammo prices will also have a huge impact on the success of the cartridge. I personally question how successful it will be, but I have certainly been wrong before.

[uscra112]

I would buy a chambered barrel to fit to one of my Stevens single-shots. Would be a natural on a Favorite.

[Kosh75287]

They must be introducing this round so that the 5mm Remington Magnum won't look like QUITE so big a failure... I hope Remington appreciates their help!

[Kosh75287]

That link is six years old.

Just saw this post. NOW it all makes more sense.

[Digital Dan]

My primers were purchased a long time ago. One sports a price tag of $24.95 for a brick. I understand they are more expensive today. I also understand that Euro match RF ammo is absurdly expensive. SK and Lapua RF is running 20-30 cents per round these days.

[pworley1]

At least they are not wasting primers making ammo,

[popper]

As I earlier thought, for non-lead bullets. Ca outlawed lead 22lr.

[uscra112]

As I earlier thought, for non-lead bullets. Ca outlawed lead 22lr.

DID they! This means war.

[pietro]

.

I remain less than interested in it............. :coffee:

[Mk42gunner]

There have been so many new cartridges, both rim and center fire, come out in the last twenty to thirty years (most aren't that easy to find now) that I have adopted a wait and see attitude. Especially for rim fires. I haven't seen any 17 HM2 rounds on a store shelf in years.

It is hard enough finding brass for the oddball and old center fires that I like, I really don't want to invest in a new rim fire that I may or may not be able to find ammo for in a couple of years.

If the 21 Sharp is still around and doing well in 2030, I might be interested.

I'd still rather have a readily available affordable loading for the .32 Long or .25 Stevens.

Robert

[1eyedjack]

Can it be any worse than my 223WSSM ? Oh yeah I can reload the 223WSSM.

[Bigslug]

I think they're playing in the same pool as the .45 G.A.P. and .30 Super Carry - they've come up with an alternative to something that's VERY mature and established, that will undoubtedly be coming to market with higher cost, greater scarcity, and the very dubious "I need this WHY?" reception we are seeing on this thread. Many of us here see the .22 WMR, 17 HMR, and 17 Mach 2 as prohibitively expensive, non-reloadable Hornets - this feels like more of the same.

The .22LR is a living fossil not only for the heeled bullet, but also the rim, and frankly rimfire. A .25 Auto lengthened to .22 WMR overall length with a twist suitable for about 100 grains would perk my interest - this thing, not so much.

[Castaway]

The marketeers have gone overboard to sell new guns in a saturated market. Unless I’m missing something, the same thing could be accomplished by making a 22 Mag (short) cartridge that could be shot in the same rifle/pistol without having to buy a new bullet launcher. I have to ask also, what can the Sharp cartridge do that a 22 LR or 22 Short mag wouldn’t do?

[jednorris]

For you that do NOT collect coins, a roll of 50 pennies cost 60 cents to make so converting to copper bullets is a dumb suggestion.

[uscra112]

And they aren't even copper. They've been mostly zinc for decades.

[gc45]

So, a 25gr pill doing 1700 plus? I'd rather shoot the many thousands of 17hmr and Blazer 22lr I have on hand.

[Beaverhunter2]

Did anyone ever see any .21 Sharp ammo. I certainly didn't.

[sigep1764]

Never heard of a gun chambered for 21 sharps let alone any ammo!

[Barry54]

By chance, did anyone read the comments at the bottom of the article?
At first glance, I agree that this round is an answer to a question no one asked, but the information
gleaned from the comments does present a viable reason for this cartridge's development.

I think I read the comment you read. The cartridge makes sense taking that into consideration.

Here’s a “million dollar idea” for the people complaining about ammunition unavailability for the new cartridge. Build something like a Lee factory crimp die that will squeeze 22 long rifle down so it will chamber in the smaller bore...
Now you can have endless ammunition options.

[GARD72977]

I think I read the comment you read. The cartridge makes sense taking that into consideration.

Here’s a “million dollar idea” for the people complaining about ammunition unavailability for the new cartridge. Build something like a Lee factory crimp die that will squeeze 22 long rifle down so it will chamber in the smaller bore...
Now you can have endless ammunition options.
I want to stand back and watch you swage a rimfire cartridge.....

[Barry54]

I want to stand back and watch you swage a rimfire cartridge.....

I’ll do it all day with a tool build similar to what I described. You probably don’t know how the Lee FCD works...

[uscra112]

I’ll do it all day with a tool build similar to what I described. You probably don’t know how the Lee FCD works...

Since the case is the same size, you'll only be swaging the bullet. How long will a 40 grain bullet be after swaging? Will it fit into the .21 Sharp chamber? Will the twist stabilize it? Inquiring minds, and all that......

Better maybe to pull the LR bullet and replace it with a .21 caliber one? Would have to be gas checked if cast.

[Barry54]

Build my tool and send me a barrel and I’ll try it out for you and report back.

What’s the twist rate for 21 Sharp barrels? I didn’t pay that much attention. I have no need for one. There are more options than 40 grain for 22LR.

[Barry54]

Since the case is the same size, you'll only be swaging the bullet. How long will a 40 grain bullet be after swaging? Will it fit into the .21 Sharp chamber? Will the twist stabilize it? Inquiring minds, and all that......

Better maybe to pull the LR bullet and replace it with a .21 caliber one? Would have to be gas checked if cast.

Bullet pull and replacement might be better.

I found the twist rate as 1:12 and the Berger stability calculator showed marginally stable with a 40 grain bullet with 0.210” diameter fired at sea level. I entered the bullet length as 0.55” just as a guess. 1200 FPS entered in the calculator.

33-36 grain truncated cone bullets at higher velocity might not grow in length as bad. Might actually stabilize?

None of this really matters though does it? The people that will benefit most from the new cartridge will be getting it to comply/conform and the rest of us are happy with lead and 22s.

[rbuck351]

I live in MT. I think I'll be dead by the time MT bans lead. Probably sooner than I'll run out of 22lr.

[pipehand]

How many rifles in .17 Winchester Super Magnum have you seen? The one made on the 27 caliber nailgun brass. They had them on the shelf in Academy a few years ago when you couldnt find any of the ammo people really wanted.
Also, wasn't there another round called the 22 AMAC or something, which was basically a 22 WMR shortened to 22LR length for use in one of the full auto American 180's? That would lend itself to non heeled bullets as well, but would require a 22wrm boltface and possibly a mag swap.as well as a rechamber.

[gloob]

I’ll do it all day with a tool build similar to what I described. You probably don’t know how the Lee FCD works...

Well, the FCD needs some upwards force on the die to work. There's nothing on a 22LR to press against, other than the bullet itself. So you might have an issue with the bullets being setback into the case by the time you swaged them to the inside diameter of the case.

Of course you could activate it some other way, but seems like you might end up with 4 flanges around the bullet, trying to swage it with a collet.

You could pull the bullets and reseat new ones. 22 Reloader already sells a 22LR shellholder and crimp die. Just need a bullet mold.

[45_Colt]

Well, the FCD needs some upwards force on the die to work. There's nothing on a 22LR to press against, other than the bullet itself.

The Lee collet crimp die only puts pressure on the cartridge at the crimp line. That is to squeeze the cartridge neck to crimp it.

The pressure to activate the collet FCD is between the shell holder and the die body. Which is held by the top of the press. A collet FCD can be activated without even having a cartridge in place.

45_Colt